[House Rule] Elves and Short Swords

[Matthew]

Okay, I know there are more than enough Elf variants out there, but this is more of a House Rule than a variant. I posted about this a while ago, but I never got a convincing answer as to why Elves now disdain the Short Sword in favour of Rapier. Consequently:

Elves

+2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution.
Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, shortsword, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.*
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

*Should you feel the desire to do so, any Elf, when created, may trade out proficiency with either Long Sword or Short Sword to gain proficiency with the Rapier.

[Fizban]

I don't remember if it was you, but there was a thread about this a little while ago. Baisically it was decided that the Rapier is better, and it can still be used with weapon finesse, so it's elfy. The only benifit of the short sword over the rapier is that it's a light weapon, so you can use it while grappling. If anything, I'd say the short sword is less elfy, when have you seen an elf grapple?
In terms of your house rule, meh. If anything it makes elves the tiniest bit weaker, but it doesn't matter. The milions of elf varients tell us that there's an elf in the world for every martial weapon.

[TheOOB]

Would I let an elf who wanted to trade rapier proficiency for short sword proficiency do so? Sure. Is there a real reason to do so? Not really.

Rapiers are ellegant and deadly weapons, capable of quick and deadly strikes. Short swords are like a gladius, they are acually kinda bulky and crude by elven standards.

Basically, any elf who has viable reason to use a short sword over a rapier probally has short sword proficiency by virtue of their classes.

[RoboticSheeple]

The core classes that don't have both Short Sword and Raiper are:

Sorcerer
Wizard
Monk
Druid
Cleric

So of all of these the class that gains the biggest benifit is a Grappling Monk, who does more damage with her unarmed strikes anyway...

I'd let a character do it, but I won't understand why they'd want to (flavor?).

[TheOOB]

The grappling monk, however, would be much better served by a kama then as short sword, as short swords cannot be flurried with.

[Matthew]

I don't remember if it was you, but there was a thread about this a little while ago. Baisically it was decided that the Rapier is better, and it can still be used with weapon finesse, so it's elfy. The only benifit of the short sword over the rapier is that it's a light weapon, so you can use it while grappling. If anything, I'd say the short sword is less elfy, when have you seen an elf grapple?
In terms of your house rule, meh. If anything it makes elves the tiniest bit weaker, but it doesn't matter. The milions of elf varients tell us that there's an elf in the world for every martial weapon.

Sure, that was me, as I indicated in the preamble to the post. However, I don't think that was the conclusion reached on that thread. It's very subjective, but basically I don't see the Rapier as particulalry 'Elfy' and I didn't read anything there that would convince me otherwise:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb...42341;start=15

I would say the Short Sword is 'Elfy', mainly because it is in 1.x and 2.x. The only reason for the change over seems to be mechanical. In 3.0 it was an 'either or' situation [i.e. you could choose Long Sword or Rapier], in 3.5 it became in addition to. I'm sure that Elves are as liable to end up in a grapple as anyone else.
There is another advantage of the Short Sword over the Rapier and that is that it makes a suitable off-hand weapon for TWF purposes, which our Dextrous friends are more likely than many other races to want to have access to. Indeed, the combination of Rapier and Short Sword would not be unreasonable in that context.

Would I let an elf who wanted to trade rapier proficiency for short sword proficiency do so? Sure. Is there a real reason to do so? Not really.

Rapiers are ellegant and deadly weapons, capable of quick and deadly strikes. Short swords are like a gladius, they are acually kinda bulky and crude by elven standards.

Basically, any elf who has viable reason to use a short sword over a rapier probally has short sword proficiency by virtue of their classes.

Um, the Gladius is a pretty elegant weapon, in my opinion; 'bulky' is not a word I would use to describe it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladius

However, I think I do know what you mean (relatively more bulky in comparison to the Rapier), but it is worth mentioning that it is no more bulky a weapon than a Long Sword. I would imagine an Elvish Short Sword to be no less elegant a weapon than an Elvish Long Sword.

TWF and Grapples is where the Gladius has the advantage over the Rapier and I can imagine Elvish Wizards and Clerics being interested in this as a possibility.

Flavour is definitely the key here. Mechanically, the Rapier may well be superior, I don't agree personally, but the Short Sword was once held in high esteem by the Elven Nations... For me, the Short Sword suits Elves a lot better than the Rapier, but each to his own.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Put me down as another one who doesn't see anything particularly "elvish" about a rapier. It's too specific. "Rapier" to me says "swashbuckling", it says "the three musketeers". It doesn't say "singing amidst the trees".