Fixing the Monk by removing it & helping the Paladin

[Kobold-Bard]

I'm sure this has been suggested before but this is something that just came to me. The Monk is considered bad because (among other reasons) it has lots of abilities throughout that don't really do anything. The Paladin is considered bad because (among other reasons) it is very front loaded.

So what if we considered merging the two of them into one class, fixing a couple of abilities along the way. Then we get rid of the Monk and replace it with an awakened housecat or something.

Paladin
Alignment
Lawful good.
Hit Die
d10.

Class Skills
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|

+1

|

+2

|

+2

|

+2

|Aura, Detect Foe, Smite Foe (5 rounds)|2|-|-|-|-

2nd|

+2

|

+3

|

+3

|

+3

|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|2|1|-|-|-

3rd|

+3

|

+3

|

+3

|

+3

|Aura of Courage, Divine Health|-|-|-|-|-

4th|

+4

|

+4

|

+4

|

+4

|Turn Undead|-|-|-|-|-

5th|

+5

|

+4

|

+4

|

+4

|Smite Foe (4 rounds), Special Mount|-|-|-|-|-

6th|

+6/+1

|

+5

|

+5

|

+5

||-|-|-|-|-

7th|

+7/+2

|

+5

|

+5

|

+5

|Mettle|-|-|-|-|-

8th|

+8/+3

|

+6

|

+6

|

+6

|Devoted Strike (First)|-|-|-|-|-

9th|

+9/+4

|

+6

|

+6

|

+6

||-|-|-|-|-

10th|

+10/+5

|

+7

|

+7

|

+7

|Smite Foe (3 rounds)|-|-|-|-|-

11th|

+11/+6/+1

|

+7

|

+7

|

+7

|Diamond Body|-|-|-|-|-

12th|

+12/+7/+2

|

+8

|

+8

|

+8

|Warrior's Wings|-|-|-|-|-

13th|

+13/+8/+3

|

+8

|

+8

|

+8

|Diamond Soul|-|-|-|-|-

14th|

+14/+9/+4

|

+9

|

+9

|

+9

|Devoted Strike (Second)|-|-|-|-|-

15th|

+15/+10/+5

|

+9

|

+9

|

+9

|Smite Foe (2 rounds)|-|4|3|2|1

16th|

+16/+11/+6/+1

|

+10

|

+10

|

+10

||4|4|4|3|2

17th|

+17/+12/+7/+2

|

+10

|

+10

|

+10

|Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon|4|4|4|4|3

18th|

+18/+13/+8/+3

|

+11

|

+11

|

+11

||4|4|4|4|4

19th|

+19/+14/+9/+4

|

+11

|

+11

|

+11

|Empty Body|4|4|4|4|4

20th|

+20/+15/+10/+5

|

+12

|

+12

|

+12

|Perfect Self, Smite Foe (1 round)|4|4|4|4|4[/table]

Class Features:

Spoiler

Show

All of the following are class features of the paladin.

Aura (Ex)
Paladin's are surrounded by a powerful aura of Law and Good. The power of a paladin’s aura (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.

Detect Foe (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil & detect chaos, as the spell.

Smite Foe (Su)
Once every five rounds, a paladin may attempt to smite a foe with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a target that is not chaotic or evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used.

At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin reduces the wait time between smite uses by one round, so at 20th level the paladin may use smite foe every round.

Spells
A paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list plus the one cleric domain of the paladin's choice from the following list: Good, Law, Protection, Strength & War. They may not change their decision after it is made and may only choose to prepare spells from these lists, they do not gain the special ability from the domain. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Paladin. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score.

A paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell in its place. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the paladin spell list and her chosen domain, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

The Paladin may not cast any spells that are opposed to her alignment.

Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can Once per day produce the effect of any Conjuration (Healing) spell that a cleric of level equal to her paladin level could cast. The exception to this is that she may not produce any effect that returns a creature from the dead. She can use this ability one additional time per day for every three levels after 2th (twice per day at 8th, three times at 11th etc.).

Aura of Courage (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.

This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

Divine Health (Ex)
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Turn Undead (Su)
When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

Special Mount (Sp)
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).

Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Mettle (Ex)
At 7th level and higher, a paladin can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If she makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping paladin does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Devoted Strike (Su)
From 8th level, a paladin's attacks are empowered by her devotion. At 8th level her attacks are treated as Axiomatic or Holy weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and dealing extra damage. At 14th level, her attacks are also treated as Axiomatic or Holy (whichever she didn't choose at 8th level) weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and dealing extra damage. Weapons only retain this quality whilst in the paladin's possession, and as such they never result in negative levels for evil or chaotic aligned creatures.

Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a paladin gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.

Warrior's Wings (Su)
At 12th level a Paladin is rewarded for her service with a pair of golden feathered wings. She gains a Fly speed equal to twice her base land speed with Good Manoeuvrability. The wings are translucent, pass harmlessly through any armour or other impediments and can be suppressed or regained as a swift action.

Diamond Soul (Ex)
At 13th level, a paladin gains spell resistance equal to her current paladin level + 10.

Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a paladin no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the paladin still dies of old age when her time is up.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A paladin of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature. I addition any creature she converses with has an attitude one step better towards the Paladin, to a maximum of Fanatical. This only affects any creature once per day, though additional diplomacy checks or other factors may change it's attitude again.

Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a paladin gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per paladin level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her paladin level. She may take her mount with her as long as she is in contact with it, and it returns to it's celestial home if she breaks contact with it.

Perfect Self
At 20th level, a paladin becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the paladin's creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the paladin gains damage reduction 5/-, which allows her to ignore the first 5 points of damage from any attack made by a weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature. Unlike other outsiders, the paladin can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

In addition she now summons four angelic wings instead of just two. This increases her Fly speed to triple her base land speed with perfect manoeuvrability.

I'm still doing the spells/day, just eating now so will sort out that mess in a bit.

The alignment based abilities are a personal annoyance, so I changed them.
Replaced Evasion with Mettle because Evasion + heavy armour =
All the rest are just some more ideas I had.

Thoughts on the idea in general?

Edit: Fixed the Wisdom stuff to make it Charisma.
Fixed skill points.
Fixed Healing Touch.
Fixed Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I'm assuming that your attitude returns to normal after a day, if it doesn't I'll need to reword that.

Edit2: Removed Cleric casting and replaced it with 2 domains.
Made Healing Touch part of Lay on Hands.
Edited the monks out of TotSaM and Timeless Body.
Replaced Abundant Step with Warrior's Wings.
Added Wings boost to Perfect Self.
Still working on Spells/day.

Edit3: Understood what people meant by Healing Touch so it became Lay on Hands.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A quick comment, another bad thing concerning monks & paladins is MAD, so my suggestion is to make spell casting lay on hands, turn undead & divine grece to be based on wis or cha only, maybe the paladin can decide which one at character creation :shrugs:

Edit: also you have different numbers for skill (4+int at first) and 2+ int at subsequent levels, my suggesition is making them 4+int at all levels.

Also might want to introduce the paladins of tirany, slaughter & freedom

[Greenish]

How about the homebrew forum?

Anyway, the skill points are inconsistent, you could give it 4 + int every level.

I don't see why Lay on Hands and Healing Touch are separate abilities.

Why is Smite based on Wisdom? It's not like it'll help the MAD, since the other features still work on Cha (Turning, Divine Grace and Lay on Hands).

Abundant Step doesn't feel very paladin-ish, how about wings?

Does Devoted Strike just penetrate DR or does it actually give the paladin's weapon Holy and Axiomatic weapon qualities (2d6 extra damage on opposing alignment)?


[Edit]: Full BAB, d10 hitdie, up to level 6 spells that can be cast in heavy armour as swift actions picked from paladin (and some cleric stuff for higher levels I assume) and wizard lists, three good saves and Cha mod to saves.

Well, at least it's not so weak anymore.

[Caphi]

At 6th level, a paladin can once per day produce the effect of any Conjuration (Healing) spell. The exception to this is that she may not produce any effect that returns a creature from the dead. She can use this ability one additional time per day for every six levels after 6th (twice per day at 12th and three times at 18th).

Any? Heal, mass cure wounds, greater and mass restoration, remove anything? At ECL 6? I suspect you want to put a clause in there about limiting the spell level to half the paladin's level. Maybe even ditch the death clause, while you're at it.

[Greenish]

Hmm, a paladin has to chat with someone hostile five times for them to become his fanatical followers.

[Kobold-Bard]

How about the homebrew forum?

Crud

Anyway, the skill points are inconsistent, you could give it 4 + int every level.

My bad, supposed to be 4.

I don't see why Lay on Hands and Healing Touch are separate abilities.

See your point.

Why is Smite based on Wisdom? It's not like it'll help the MAD, since the other features still work on Cha (Turning, Divine Grace and Lay on Hands).

Screwed up there, was debating changing everything to Wis but then decided to keep them Cha and apparently didn't edit it.

Abundant Step doesn't feel very paladin-ish, how about wings?

Maybe.

Does Devoted Strike just penetrate DR or does it actually give the paladin's weapon Holy and Axiomatic weapon qualities (2d6 extra damage on opposing alignment)?

Both.

[Edit]: Full BAB, d10 hitdie, up to level 6 spells that can be cast in heavy armour as swift actions picked from paladin (and some cleric stuff for higher levels I assume) and wizard lists, three good saves and Cha mod to saves.

Well, at least it's not so weak anymore.

Wizard spells?
Swift Actions? (If you mean DMM Quicken you can't assume that looking at the class).

[Thalnawr]

Wizard spells?
Swift Actions? (If you mean DMM Quicken you can't assume that looking at the class).

I believe he's referring to the Battle Blessing feat, out of Complete Champion which allows a paladin to cast his paladin spells as swift actions.

[Greenish]

Wizard spells?
Swift Actions? (If you mean DMM Quicken you can't assume that looking at the class).

Sword of Arcane Order & Battle Blessing.

[Kobold-Bard]

Any? Heal, mass cure wounds, greater and mass restoration, remove anything? At ECL 6? I suspect you want to put a clause in there about limiting the spell level to half the paladin's level. Maybe even ditch the death clause, while you're at it.

Added a clause that was meant to be there in the first place.

Hmm, a paladin has to chat with someone hostile five times for them to become his fanatical followers.

Fixed, sort of.

I believe he's referring to the Battle Blessing feat, out of Complete Champion which allows a paladin to cast his paladin spells as swift actions.

Oh, my bad.

[Pluto]

It feels like a bit much, but I can't say it's broken.

Healing touch leaves a bad taste in my mouth. With Lay on Hands and spells drawn from the Cleric list, I'm not sure why it's there. It feels inelegant and unimportant.

Abundant Step always bothered me as a 1/day ability. I'd like it to increase - either increasing by level, by giving it Wis/day uses or by giving it a multiple-round cool-down.

[FlamingKobold]

Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Abundant Step, and Timeless body all still have the word "monk" in them. And yeah, this may get a bit out of hand when you key in battle blessing and Sword of the Arcane order.

I agree that at 13th they should get wings instead of abundant step. That would make this guy the ultimate Holy warrior.

Darn, now you've reminded me of the paladin fix I did a few years back but never posted... Now I'm going to to have to go find and finish it

[DragoonWraith]

I'm just going to toss my hat in the ring for Cha-based everything. Turning, Smiting, spellcasting, Laying on Hands, etc etc. To me, the use of Charisma instead of Wisdom is what really makes the Paladin different from Clerics. Clerics are faithful and wise, while Paladins are courageous leaders, who stand up for what's right and give the people faith that not all is lost. That's huge Charisma there.

Or, alternatively, you have the Zealot, who's so personally invested in his faith that it dominates his persona, so everything about who-he-is comes from his faith, and his absolute faith and determination that his god is right is what powers his spells and abilities, as opposed to the more meditative and prayerful Cleric.

[arguskos]

Why can they cast from the Paladin and Cleric lists? That seems like a bit much. Cut the Cleric casting, and instead extend the Paladin list with thematic spells culled from the Cleric/Druid/whoever list.

[Ravens_cry]

Try the Pathfinder Paladin? Smite is actually useful. Also, it's a bit less MAD.

[Kylarra]

Why not take a page from Favored Soul and give Weapon focus/Weapon spec of their chosen deity? They're rather negligible feats overall, but flavorful for a paladin.

An idea would be to give the paladin a few domains from their god instead of the full cleric list. Probably only getting the spells on their list rather than the special abilities.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Obligatory ToB reference?

Seriously, Crusaders are pretty much everything paladins wanted to be but just weren't, and likewise, unarmed swordsage makes for a much better 'monk'.

[PId6]

You know, if Factotum didn't already exist, I'd call this the best gestalt partner ever.

[Kobold-Bard]

Obligatory ToB reference?

Seriously, Crusaders are pretty much everything paladins wanted to be but just weren't, and likewise, unarmed swordsage makes for a much better 'monk'.

I'm well aware of the Tome of Battle, thanks for your pointless point.

Why not take a page from Favored Soul and give Weapon focus/Weapon spec of their chosen deity? They're rather negligible feats overall, but flavorful for a paladin.

An idea would be to give the paladin a few domains from their god instead of the full cleric list. Probably only getting the spells on their list rather than the special abilities.

Cleric casting is a remainder from a previous attempt. Domains is a good idea.

I'm just going to toss my hat in the ring for Cha-based everything. Turning, Smiting, spellcasting, Laying on Hands, etc etc....

Already done this.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Abundant Step, and Timeless body all still have the word "monk" in them. And yeah, this may get a bit out of hand when you key in battle blessing and Sword of the Arcane order.

I agree that at 13th they should get wings instead of abundant step. That would make this guy the ultimate Holy warrior.

Darn, now you've reminded me of the paladin fix I did a few years back but never posted... Now I'm going to to have to go find and finish it

1. Crap, my editing sucks.
2. Okey dokey.
3. Glad I could help.

It feels like a bit much, but I can't say it's broken.

Healing touch leaves a bad taste in my mouth. With Lay on Hands and spells drawn from the Cleric list, I'm not sure why it's there. It feels inelegant and unimportant....

Fixing the casting so I'll leave it in. It's a Spell-like so they can deal with stuff without wasting resources on Restoration spells.

You know, if Factotum didn't already exist, I'd call this the best gestalt partner ever.

Not building with Gestalt in mind. Battle Blessing was an oversight though.

[JaronK]

Really easy fix: just use a dip into PrC Paladin off Cleric. Works great, gives you all the Paladin abilities, and you rock. Throw in the Holy Mount feat and you have everything you wanted in just two levels of Paladin (finish out with Contemplative or Sacred Exorcist or some other fitting class).

Of course, you're not a Paladin until level 6 or 7 or so.

JaronK

[Rockphed]

I have an idea: Keep normal paladin spell casting with it tied to Wisdom. To cast level 4 spells, as high as normal paladin spell casting goes, you only need a 14 in wisdom. Since most of those spells are best used on yourself, having only the 14 doesn't hurt too much. Of course, I have never been good at telling what is MAD and what is just trying to get as much out of a character as possible.

Hmmm, lets see: High strength, for attack, con, for HP and Cha for abilities ties up 3 abilities. The elite array is 15,14,13,12,10,8, so using that(which is probably worse than any reasonable person would use, would result in 15 str, 14 con, 13 cha, 12 wis, 10 dex and 8 int. Hmmm, would dropping wis to nothing be worth it? I mean with Full Plate, you could only ever get +1 dex bonus unless you go for mithril plate, and, though I haven't looked at the skill list very hard, only having 3 skill points a level is probably not going to kill you. On the other hand, cha casting would make for a character with only 3 scores needed, whereas wis casting takes 3 and a half. Eh, I'm probably just blathering.

Otherwise, this is a pretty awesome rebuild of the Paladin.

Also, all the people who are suggesting things like PRC paladin and crusader are missing the point. I mean if I were giving that type of advice it would be "Play 4th edition, hur, hur, hur." Since such would be unwelcome in this thread, so are your counterconstructive comments.

[Thalnawr]

Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a paladin no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.

I like that the monk dies, while the paladin no longer takes aging penalties and lives forever...

[Kobold-Bard]

I like that the monk dies, while the paladin no longer takes aging penalties and lives forever...

AH DAMMIT!!

I suck at editing.

[Thurbane]

Maybe this approach could be applied to Monk and Fighter, who are usually touted as the two weakest classes.

Basically, give Monk full BAB and a bonus feat every 2 levels. Still won't help with the key problem of flurry relying on full round action...

[FlamingKobold]

I like that the monk dies, while the paladin no longer takes aging penalties and lives forever...

I think it's a pretty great policy as well

[Tavar]

How about this for fixing the MAD;

At first level, a Paladin choses whether to be based of Charisma or Wisdom.

Then, make a list of class features for each ability. The class features on the list of the ability that was chosen work normally. The class features on the list of the other ability instead work off the other ability, but in return at less strength.

Granted, for some things this is easy; for lay on hands simply reduce the pool by half, or something. For others, like spellcasting, it's harder to decide what level they should be at, but in my mind it solves both the MAD problem and the tendency for characters of a class to play exactly the same.

[Cogidubnus]

Maybe this approach could be applied to Monk and Fighter, who are usually touted as the two weakest classes.

Basically, give Monk full BAB and a bonus feat every 2 levels. Still won't help with the key problem of flurry relying on full round action...

Give them a move action as a swift action a number of times per encounter equal to their wisdom modifier?

[Friend Computer]

I'm not sure what the current policy for spells is, as posts seem to say that the new paladin gets only 2 domains while the write-up gives paladin spells and 1 domain.

Why not just give them bard casting progression, but only access to the domains of their god + two of [alignment domain], [other alignment domain]* Glory, Nobility, War. It keeps them different, and you don't have to bother writing up a spell list, just list what domains they can access.

*assuming variant paladins are allowed

[Kobold-Bard]

I gave my monks pounce, ad long as they have as many monk (or monk prc) levels as thy do others so it doesn't turn into an even better dip class.

[warmachine]

I don't think permanent wings at level 12 is appropriate. At that level, PCs have superhero powers that even rulers must reckon with but they still have human limits. They are like Batman but not Superman. That's why Favoured Soul gets wings at level 20. Instead, wings should be a level 3 Paladin spell.

I approve of some orisons at level 1 and regard that as thematically appropriate. You'll have to complete the spells per day table.

[Friend Computer]

I don't think permanent wings at level 12 is appropriate. At that level, PCs have superhero powers that even rulers must reckon with but they still have human limits. They are like Batman but not Superman. That's why Favoured Soul gets wings at level 20. Instead, wings should be a level 3 Paladin spell.

I approve of some orisons at level 1 and regard that as thematically appropriate. You'll have to complete the spells per day table.

Wings are a pretty petty capstone. By that time they serve as mere fluff. At the mid-levels they are useful, but not overpowering, and they hardly give 'superman' status either, though I do think a swift action is a bit quick. Maybe a full-round action at 12, standard action at 15, and swift at 18?