OOTS #1046 - The Discussion Thread

[D.One]

So... When is somebody gonna realize that Eugene can just go get Roy's grandfather, so he can get more training. I mean, if Roy can manifest down there, so could others right?

That's quite what I was thinking. If it's a link beetween generations of Greenhilts, couldn't Horace, or even some first Greenhilt ancestor be called on to help?

[happycrow]

... while not all sarcasm here is written in blue text, most times that I see blue text, it's used to indicate sarcasm. Your comment therefore leaves me somewhat confused.

My understanding is that it's for levity and posts which don't need to be taken seriously. And really, Yet Another Reader saying "Oh, Ouch" doesn't actually add anything. I simply felt compelled to add to the chorus.

[nleseul]

If it's a link beetween generations of Greenhilts, couldn't Horace, or even some first Greenhilt ancestor be called on to help?

It seems to be a link between Eugene (as the initiator of the Blood Oath of Vengeance) and his descendants (as the inheritors of the Blood Oath of Vengeance). Horace was not party to the Blood Oath, so he wouldn't be permitted to manifest by that mechanism.

[DaggerPen]

My understanding is that it's for levity and posts which don't need to be taken seriously. And really, Yet Another Reader saying "Oh, Ouch" doesn't actually add anything. I simply felt compelled to add to the chorus.

Aha! Thank you for clarifying - that makes more sense.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Oh, Eugene.

Spoiler: Start Of Darkness

Show

When Roy was a child, Eugene missed his (Roy's) soccer game for an appointment to contact Right-Eye, Redcloak's brother who had defected from Xykon's service.

In this appointment, Eugene finally got information on Xykon's location, but declined to start up a new adventuring party to fulfill the revenge oath (his first adventuring party, from his pre-marriage years, never found Xykon). Eugene's stated reason for this was that, since he now had a family, he could not afford to risk their safety by going after Xykon.

Eugene advised Right-Eye to start a family and give up on revenge against Xykon, because "when you die, you're not going to say, 'darn, I didn't spend enough time on petty revenge' ".

[JBiddles]

V has always been my favourite character, but I'm pretty shocked by all the favourable comparisons to Eugene.

Eugene: broke a stupid Oath he made while drunk; deliberately failed to tell Roy about Familicide (this is probably his worst act, but it's not as though he understood the significance); was a mediocre father; is unpleasant to be around.

Vaarsuvius: left her children lying with broken legs to torture someone in front of them; committed genocide. Yes, yes, extenuating circumstances, utilitarianism, but still.

Eugene dedicated his life to fighting for Good, and now people are saying he should be kicked out of Heaven for... terrible interpersonal skills? Poor parenting? Being a prick? Good people can be all those things and more. Good is a measure of your general regard for the dignity of sapient beings, not how loving you are. Eugene hasn't done anything except be a bad husband and father. That's not enough to cancel out a lifetime as Lawful Good.

[Ruck]

V has always been my favourite character, but I'm pretty shocked by all the favourable comparisons to Eugene.

Eugene: broke a stupid Oath he made while drunk; deliberately failed to tell Roy about Familicide (this is probably his worst act, but it's not as though he understood the significance); was a mediocre father; is unpleasant to be around.

Vaarsuvius: left her children lying with broken legs to torture someone in front of them; committed genocide. Yes, yes, extenuating circumstances, utilitarianism, but still.

Eugene dedicated his life to fighting for Good, and now people are saying he should be kicked out of Heaven for... terrible interpersonal skills? Poor parenting? Being a prick? Good people can be all those things and more. Good is a measure of your general regard for the dignity of sapient beings, not how loving you are. Eugene hasn't done anything except be a bad husband and father. That's not enough to cancel out a lifetime as Lawful Good.

I'll just repeat myself: actually seeing Eugene live a life of Lawful Good, instead of just hearing about it while we by and large see him acting like a self-interested neutral who doesn't have regard for others, would go a long way toward this characterization.

[Gift Jeraff]

Eugene is a failed hero. V is a failed villain.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Until his final death, Eugene didn't know the oath would keep him out of the afterlife.

So, he is dealing with the consequences of an oath he a) did not understand, and b) made while drunk.

One would assume that a Lawful Good system would recognize the questionable validity of an oath made under a state of impaired awareness, self control, and reasoning, notwithstanding the fact that the one making the oath was unaware of several major conditions of the oath. Eugene assumed, and nobody saw any need to correct.

[Keltest]

Until his final death, Eugene didn't know the oath would keep him out of the afterlife.

So, he is dealing with the consequences of an oath he a) did not understand, and b) made while drunk.

One would assume that a Lawful Good system would recognize the questionable validity of an oath made under a state of impaired awareness, self control, and reasoning, notwithstanding the fact that the one making the oath was unaware of several major conditions of the oath. Eugene assumed, and nobody saw any need to correct.

Well, the guy who cast the spell did, but Eugene actively shut him up on account of being horribly drunk.

[Cicciograna]

Right in the feels, Giant.
I feel particularly touched by this strip, because...because I'm slowly turning into Eugene. I have stopped caring about my emotional side, rather focusing exclusively on my analytical and rational mind. I am not helped by the fact that I have been sistematically rejected by almost every human being I was attracted to, but since I have started my graudate program I have begun caring less and less for emotions, to the point of openly stating more than once that Love is entropically unfavorable.
What have I become.

[ChillerInstinct]

Vaarsuvius: left her children lying with broken legs to torture someone in front of them[/I]

In all fairness, V's not a healer, and had no access to healing magic even under the influence of the Soul Splices. Short of teleporting them all to Durkon, Mass Teleporting them to the fleet, or taking them to a never-before-mentioned healer in proximity to their home, there really wasn't much V could do about the injuries Inky and the kids took before they arrived.

Eugene hasn't done anything except be a bad husband and father. That's not enough to cancel out a lifetime as Lawful Good.

He's also conspired behind the backs of the Paladins of Azure City with Shojo (which ROY got called out for when he was being judged), hijacked a summoning spell (having subdued a being of pure Law and Good), and refused the direct request of a second pure Law and Good being regarding V's dip in the deep end of the alignment pool in order to appease his own needs. None of these actions scream "Lawful".

I don't think Eugene's going to take a vertical alignment change, but getting bumped over to Neutral Good probably wouldn't be amiss.

[TheWolfe]

I'm not on board with everyone else, it seems.

Eugene is actually acknowledging what the angel who gave Roy his celestial interview said: That Eugene's fault was in abandoning his Blood Oath and leaving the responsibility of completing it to Roy.

Eugene instead went ahead and had a family and waddled around until his time came. If he'd been more on the ball and simply tried to fulfill his Blood Oath he wouldn't have spent years staring down from the clouds helpless (until strip #15) to have any influence.

By contrast V flat out ignored hir spouse for decades for no other reason than selfish ambition. Only since s/he lost hir family has s/he felt the pangs of regret and acknowledged to Blackwing that s/he was all around a bad spouse.

Eugene and V both have/had family problems. In Eugene's case he's overcompensating by saying that he should, in fact, have followed V's path. This seems to represent actual character growth for Eugene: Acknowledging his long ignored responsibilities.

And then we see V and s/he's full of regret. This, too, represents character growth.

...

Or maybe not. <_<

In my opinion Eugene's fatal flaw has always been, and remains to be, blaming his own failure to take his responsibilities on other people.

Let's just start from the beginning. Taking the blood oath was an incredibly stupid, shortsighted, but fatal mistake, but one that could be forgiven under the circumstances (He was drunk, angry, didn't understand the implications, etc). But no matter how stupid it was, taking that oath gave him a responsibility, just like knocking up a girl in a one-night stand makes you partially responsible for the child, no matter how drunk you were at the time.

But he didn't really seem to take his responsibility seriously. He didn't seem to hunt Xykon for the reason he originally made that oath: To avenge his master. He just did it because he had taken the blood oath. And he eventually got bored and tired, and decided to settle down. I wouldn't call this very Lawful Good, but still understandable given the fact that he didn't actually understood the implications (By the way, there's no reason why he couldn't have just looked that up while he was alive. I doubt that it was hidden from him somehow, given that the tattoo guy seemed to understand how hardcore it was).

But, even though he settled down and decided to stay with Roy and his wife, even when Right-Eye offered him information, he also shirked his responsibilities to his family. Deciding he wasn't going to endanger his family in a quest for vengeance (or rather, a quest to fulfil his ill-gotten oath) is admirable, but, to be frank, Eugene was still a terrible, terrible father. It's clear that he never bothered to make time for Roy, never bothered to get to know him, never bothered to understand his games or interests. Why? Because he was too prideful to lower himself 'to a child's standards'.

But he was still a father. And being a father brings responsibilities that he refused to follow, and instead seems to blame it on Roy being different from him. He blames his kid for him not being a responsible father. He refuses to support Roy, refuses to help him, refuses to guide him. He also refuses to take his responsibility on Eric's death, instead saying it was an accident, that Eric wasn't supposed to be there (implicitly blaming Eric).

And then he's about to die, and comes to see Roy at Fighter College. And he demands that Roy fixes the mistake that HE made all those years ago, far before Roy was even born. Does he request it? Does he even ask? No, he demands.

And then he died, and discovered the truth about the blood oath. And here he starts the negative character development that I think is unforgivable, and that, in my opinion, should completely bar him from the Lawful Good afterlife:

He becomes bitter, and starts blaming his family for his situation. He becomes convinced that if his wife hadn't come along, if Roy hadn't been born, he'd have been concentrated on fighting Xykon (a fact I doubt, by the way), and he becomes even more spiteful to Roy than ever before. After all, if only Roy had become a wizard, then he wouldn't be waiting in limbo so long! It's all Roy's fault he's still waiting!

And even when Roy died and did get into Heaven, he still couldn't even be slightly happy for his son. He was only angry that he didn't get in himself. He never wondered if there might have been a reason he wasn't allowed in other than the blood oath. He never wondered if there might be a reason his wife and son didn't want to see him anymore. No, those things are because of other people's mistakes: The celestials being spiteful, his wife not loving his perfect self for some reason, his son not wanting to be like his perfect father.

Even know, when he feels a tinge of regret, is it because he was a bad father? Is it because he failed to avenge his master? No, he's sorry because he didn't get to go into heaven. That's the only reason he's sorry. That's his only motivation. He wants to get himself into heaven, and he doesn't give a crap about anyone else. And along the way, he blames everybody but himself for the predicament he's in.

He is a self-centered arrogant narcissistic egomaniac who still hasn't acknowledged his responsibilities. His responsibilities as a father, his responsibilities as a husband, his responsibilities as a mage, and his responsibilities as an oath taker.

V, on the other hand, has acknowledged hir responsibilities. Hir acknowledges that, due to the Familicide, he has a responsibility to do his best to set things right. Hir acknowledges that hir children have to be protected. Hir acknowledges that hir has been a bad parent, and is trying hir best to help hir children now through the only way hir knows: By supporting them from far away, and keeping hir potentially toxic influence away. Is it the best course of action? I don't actually think so. But at least V is trying to be a good parent. Something Eugene has never in his life or death, truly tried to do.

[Lord Raziere]

Eugene: well then. Looks like I was wrong about you. I thought you knew the importance of family, but turns out your just a jerk who uses whatever excuse you can to complain and not put any effort into anything.

V: Yeah turns out seeking ultimate arcane power over spending time with the family you love is a bad idea and no matter how many spells you learn it won't heal a broken heart or relationships you can never get back because of your actions. All the arcane power in the world won't heal a broken personal life.

So yeah, both horrible people when you think about it. V is just the sympathetic horrible person that realizes how horrible they are.

[DaggerPen]

In all fairness, V's not a healer, and had no access to healing magic even under the influence of the Soul Splices. Short of teleporting them all to Durkon, Mass Teleporting them to the fleet, or taking them to a never-before-mentioned healer in proximity to their home, there really wasn't much V could do about the injuries Inky and the kids took before they arrived.



He's also conspired behind the backs of the Paladins of Azure City with Shojo (which ROY got called out for when he was being judged), hijacked a summoning spell (having subdued a being of pure Law and Good), and refused the direct request of a second pure Law and Good being regarding V's dip in the deep end of the alignment pool in order to appease his own needs. None of these actions scream "Lawful".

I don't think Eugene's going to take a vertical alignment change, but getting bumped over to Neutral Good probably wouldn't be amiss.

I really like V and enjoy vir redemption arc, but I would point out that when you are wielding unimaginable arcane power, "Scry for and teleport to the nearest healer/teleport to the nearest town to get the kids and spouse healed" is a very reachable solution, to say nothing of going to Durkon (who I could understand V seeking alternative options to, but not choosing not to go to were there no others, not that V thought about that beyond "You dying? Okay cool.") The dragon is dead - deciding to continue with the revenge instead of helping the kids speaks poorly of V at the time (to say nothing of the form that revenge took.)

In my opinion Eugene's fatal flaw has always been, and remains to be, blaming his own failure to take his responsibilities on other people.

Let's just start from the beginning. Taking the blood oath was an incredibly stupid, shortsighted, but fatal mistake, but one that could be forgiven under the circumstances (He was drunk, angry, didn't understand the implications, etc). But no matter how stupid it was, taking that oath gave him a responsibility, just like knocking up a girl in a one-night stand makes you partially responsible for the child, no matter how drunk you were at the time.

But he didn't really seem to take his responsibility seriously. He didn't seem to hunt Xykon for the reason he originally made that oath: To avenge his master. He just did it because he had taken the blood oath. And he eventually got bored and tired, and decided to settle down. I wouldn't call this very Lawful Good, but still understandable given the fact that he didn't actually understood the implications (By the way, there's no reason why he couldn't have just looked that up while he was alive. I doubt that it was hidden from him somehow, given that the tattoo guy seemed to understand how hardcore it was).

But, even though he settled down and decided to stay with Roy and his wife, even when Right-Eye offered him information, he also shirked his responsibilities to his family. Deciding he wasn't going to endanger his family in a quest for vengeance (or rather, a quest to fulfil his ill-gotten oath) is admirable, but, to be frank, Eugene was still a terrible, terrible father. It's clear that he never bothered to make time for Roy, never bothered to get to know him, never bothered to understand his games or interests. Why? Because he was too prideful to lower himself 'to a child's standards'.

But he was still a father. And being a father brings responsibilities that he refused to follow, and instead seems to blame it on Roy being different from him. He blames his kid for him not being a responsible father. He refuses to support Roy, refuses to help him, refuses to guide him. He also refuses to take his responsibility on Eric's death, instead saying it was an accident, that Eric wasn't supposed to be there (implicitly blaming Eric).

And then he's about to die, and comes to see Roy at Fighter College. And he demands that Roy fixes the mistake that HE made all those years ago, far before Roy was even born. Does he request it? Does he even ask? No, he demands.

And then he died, and discovered the truth about the blood oath. And here he starts the negative character development that I think is unforgivable, and that, in my opinion, should completely bar him from the Lawful Good afterlife:

He becomes bitter, and starts blaming his family for his situation. He becomes convinced that if his wife hadn't come along, if Roy hadn't been born, he'd have been concentrated on fighting Xykon (a fact I doubt, by the way), and he becomes even more spiteful to Roy than ever before. After all, if only Roy had become a wizard, then he wouldn't be waiting in limbo so long! It's all Roy's fault he's still waiting!

And even when Roy died and did get into Heaven, he still couldn't even be slightly happy for his son. He was only angry that he didn't get in himself. He never wondered if there might have been a reason he wasn't allowed in other than the blood oath. He never wondered if there might be a reason his wife and son didn't want to see him anymore. No, those things are because of other people's mistakes: The celestials being spiteful, his wife not loving his perfect self for some reason, his son not wanting to be like his perfect father.

Even know, when he feels a tinge of regret, is it because he was a bad father? Is it because he failed to avenge his master? No, he's sorry because he didn't get to go into heaven. That's the only reason he's sorry. That's his only motivation. He wants to get himself into heaven, and he doesn't give a crap about anyone else. And along the way, he blames everybody but himself for the predicament he's in.

He is a self-centered arrogant narcissistic egomaniac who still hasn't acknowledged his responsibilities. His responsibilities as a father, his responsibilities as a husband, his responsibilities as a mage, and his responsibilities as an oath taker.

V, on the other hand, has acknowledged hir responsibilities. Hir acknowledges that, due to the Familicide, he has a responsibility to do his best to set things right. Hir acknowledges that hir children have to be protected. Hir acknowledges that hir has been a bad parent, and is trying hir best to help hir children now through the only way hir knows: By supporting them from far away, and keeping hir potentially toxic influence away. Is it the best course of action? I don't actually think so. But at least V is trying to be a good parent. Something Eugene has never in his life or death, truly tried to do.

This is very well summarized.

[ChillerInstinct]

I really like V and enjoy vir redemption arc, but I would point out that when you are wielding unimaginable arcane power, "Scry for and teleport to the nearest healer/teleport to the nearest town to get the kids and spouse healed" is a very reachable solution, to say nothing of going to Durkon (who I could understand V seeking alternative options to, but not choosing not to go to were there no others, not that V thought about that beyond "You dying? Okay cool.") The dragon is dead - deciding to continue with the revenge instead of helping the kids speaks poorly of V at the time (to say nothing of the form that revenge took.)

Actually, I was thinking more "would there be enough casts of Mass/Epic Teleport available to get hir family to a healer (and back, since stranding them would probably be less than ideal) and still do everything else V planned on doing under the Splices (ie. get the party back together and kill Xykon)". I mean, if it came down to resting to replenish those 7th/Epic spell slots, that would have been a full 24 hours of debt to the Fiends (assuming Heorta didn't get loose by then; the question is whether Inky would have freaked out enough to faze V enough for her to break free. If yes, then 16 hours instead, still a massive step up from the time V currently owes them)

However I've gone and done the math on that and turns out, yes, it WOULD have been possible, so I withdraw my objection.

[ti'esar]

Wow is Eugene a jerk.

I mean, I'm sure plenty of people have said this in more detail already, since I've come pretty late to this thread, and we basically knew all this already, but still, wow.

[DaggerPen]

Actually, I was thinking more "would there be enough casts of Mass/Epic Teleport available to get hir family to a healer (and back, since stranding them would probably be less than ideal) and still do everything else V planned on doing under the Splices (ie. get the party back together and kill Xykon)". I mean, if it came down to resting to replenish those 7th/Epic spell slots, that would have been a full 24 hours of debt to the Fiends (assuming Heorta didn't get loose by then; the question is whether Inky would have freaked out enough to faze V enough for her to break free)

However I've gone and done the math on that and turns out, yes, it WOULD have been possible, so I withdraw my objection.

Oh! Okay, valid reasoning, though the math doesn't work out, as you said. (Also, I think that Inkyrius may have been freaked, but probably not as much as they were with the whole, you know, genocide thing.)

[Ruck]

This is very well summarized.

Hear, hear. Great post by TheWolfe.

[danielxcutter]

Apparently Eugene has levels in the Humongous Jerkass prestige class. And I think I rolled a natural 1 on a Will Save and am being hit by Maximized Feels for 6d20*1.5 emotional damage.

[Basement Cat]

*snip*

Like DaggerPen saidd--that was very well summarized.

I don't have any of the books, so all I have to work from is the online strip. Eugene was really that bad? Geez....

[TheWolfe]

Like DaggerPen saidd--that was very well summarized.

I don't have any of the books, so all I have to work from is the online strip. Eugene was really that bad? Geez....

I don't think the following scene is very spoilerish, but I'll put it into spoiler tags anyway:

Spoiler

Show

In Start of Darkness, there's a scene where Eugene gets the opportunity from an... inside accomplice of Xykon who wants to escape to get some information he could use to destroy Xykon. Eugene refuses, saying he's got a family now, and it would be too dangerous, and he doesn't want to leave little Roy without a father.

Immediately after the meeting he teleports home to find he missed a football match Roy was playing in. Roy is like... 6 years old at this time, and excitedly tells his dad "I scored two goals!" or something like that. Eugene doesn't show any excitement, and asks "Is... that good?" showing he doesn't know anything about football. Roy is clearly hurt and walks away bitterly. Roy's mother calls Eugene out on this, saying that because he's so smart he could learn all the rules of football in a few minutes, but he won't because he considers it beneath him. Eugene doesn't argue with this, instead saying his magic is what's really important, and that Roy won't care about football when he's off at wizard school anyway, etc. Roy's mother (I'm so sorry, but I can't remember her name of the top of my head) is angry at his response, and tells him he should put more effort into taking care of his son. Eugene gets angry, saying "You wouldn't say that if you knew where I just was", referring to his meeting with the accomplice).

I apologize if some of the above is inaccurate, I'm reciting it from memory. But it shows that Eugene doesn't really put any effort into getting to know Roy at all, considering his interests and hobbies to be beneath him.

[anjxed]

I wonder why Haley is frowning in the 3rd panel when they were in the illusion world

[Ruck]

I don't think that's a frown. It's more of a neutral/impassive look. Compare to V's in the final panel.

[luagha]

Looking at the pictures I now must wonder:

Do elves have ponytails the way gnomes wear hats?

Hm, maybe Pompey had half a ponytail.

[Ruck]

Looking at the pictures I now must wonder:

Do elves have ponytails the way gnomes wear hats?

Hm, maybe Pompey had half a ponytail.

V didn't have a ponytail until after the Soul splice.

[tomandtish]

It was stated that the Starmetal would give the sword a 25% upgrade, which Roy translated to a +5 enchantment. I think the implication of this is that the sword was +4 before. I could be wrong of course, but that would be a sufficient, if not stellar, weapon for a fighter as accomplished as Horace Greenhilt, who apparently had ridiculous feats to back him up as well.

... you know, that's an interesting interpretation. I'd taken "25% increase" to mean "25% of a d20 is 5, so it's +5", but yours is just as mathematically sound.

I am fairly certain your interpretation is the correct one, given that Roy said "You can just say +5 sword" and not, say, "You can just say you upgraded it from a +4 to a +5 sword." We don't have any way of knowing how powerful the Greenhilt sword was before then.

Ahh, fun with math. Both definitions are mathematically correct, although one seems a little more correct based on other statements. If it had NO plus, then adding +5 to it would be a 25% increase. Likewise if it was +4, then going to +5 would increase the "plus" by 25%.

I suspect it went from a non-magical masterwork item to a +5, but that's just my 2cp.

[Windscion]

Like DaggerPen saidd--that was very well summarized.

I don't have any of the books, so all I have to work from is the online strip. Eugene was really that bad? Geez....

Eugene seems worse than he is, altho he's still kinda a prick. He can't be bothered to learn about stuff that isn't wizardry, because wizardry rules. To the point of showing utter disdain for things other people think important. He refuses to listen, and so fails to behave fairly. Such people are very vexing to deal with, but if you do manage to get their attention, they can clean up their act.

Also, his adventuring history may have been heavily "good," as measured by kilonazis slain/thwarted.

[yldenfrei]

Can people effect an alignment change after death? Some of the issues people have for Eugene's alignment re-evaluation are post-mortem (hijacking the summoning) so I'm curious. I couldn't remember whether there's something about being judged by your actions in "life".

Which also brings to mind another question: has Eugene been evaluated already?

[Vendanna]

But it shows that Eugene doesn't really put any effort into getting to know Roy at all, considering his interests and hobbies to be beneath him.

I for one don't really blame Eugene, Eugene is at Heart an illusionist. and those don't really feels like "lawful". also you should note that Roy's sister is True Neutral. (prolly Roy alignement is more in consonance with his mum than his dad)

As illusionist works hard to "hide the thruth" I'm more inclined to believe that Eugene is like that. Heck, recall how he lied about going to the plane of water when he said that to right eye.

Ghost dad is a challenge for Roy to surpass (in order to obtain his final goal of his father acknowledgement) and surely you shouldn't expect getting it if Roy don't manage to break those walls that he has with his father. Look at it, his father said he tried to help and he actually said Thanks!

Also, he is indeed trying to help. Recall his words on http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html he can't help him directly, any help that he can muster must be done indirectly. that's why He can't really help his son at this moment with the sword thingy EVEN if he would want to do it.