[3.5/E6] Rizban's E6 Compendium

[Jeriah]

Trying again on domains, using mostly obscure spells. Will edit this as I figure more stuff out, I mostly just posted on my new E6 play by post and realized I might as well post here as well.

Good:
1st level - Ray of Hope (1 round/level Heroism, counters Sorrow, 1st level cleric/bard).
Might be a little strong, but it is a 1st level good descriptor spell.
2nd level - Angelskin (1 round/level DR 5/evil, 2nd level paladin)
While paladin occasionally gets grossly underleveled spells, I don't think this is one of them. DR 5/evil, while good, isn't particularly OP for a 2nd level spell, especially at 1 round/level. I mentioned it in my first set.

Evil:
1st level -Sorrow (as Ray of Hope, but -3 to each)
This is even stronger than Ray of Hope, but it's cleric 1/bard 1... maybe debuff it to -2?
2nd level - Bunch of options here. Potential things from PHB:
Death Knell
Animate Dead
Desecrate

Things from other books:
Sadism (+1 luck to rolls for each 10 damage dealt last round)
Masochism (+1 luck to rolls for each 10 damage taken last round)
Darkblast (Touch attack 1d8/2 levels, Fort or stun 1 round)
Summon Undead II

All Evil descriptor 2nd level spells. Death Knell is already in Death, but maybe reuse is okay? Eh.

Death:
2nd Level - Animate Dead, Summon Undead are both decent options.
3rd Level - Summon Undead III, maybe Vecna's Malevolent Whisper (Reduces creature at 10 or less HP to -9 and stable. Might also be a candidate for 2nd level?), maybe Opalescent Glare (save or die, if save then fear for 2d10 rounds for evil creatures of less than 5 HD, save or Fear for 2d10 rounds if more than 5 HD or nonevil. Save or die is a bit questionable, but is pretty restricted and with a debuff it could work better. I thought it also represented the whole "Death doesn't mean evil" thing well)

Chaos:
1st level - without the water thing, no idea.
2nd Level - Soul of Chaos is still an idea. Anarchic Storm is also decent (2d6/round to lawful, 5d6 vrs lawful outsider and a storm)

Law:
Same as Chaos.

That's what I came up with for the true/pure stuff. I'll probably do the rest some time

Also, I still think Spellblade (redmage) + metamagic is a little crazy. At 3rd level, you can get 1d3+5 as a swift action, 3 times an encounter, plus 10d6 damage to one or 10d4 to a 15 foot cone.

Those look pretty good.

[r2d2go]

Rizban, are you still here? If so, I've got a game using these rules going, plus some ideas

[Rizban]

Rizban, are you still here? If so, I've got a game using these rules going, plus some ideas

Yep. I'm actually running the system in a campaign for my live D&D group. We even met earlier tonight.
I've also apparently agreed to DM for a pbp of this system that's recruiting right now.

I'd definitely like to see what you're suggesting. I've got a long list of changes and modifications and some new material that I just haven't had time to write out and post, but I'm always open to revising things if something better is suggested.

[r2d2go]

Ah, cool. Here's the IC thread (same campaign as the previous one, new players) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-of-the-Kitka

As for the suggestions...

I was going to run through the existing domains again, but I think it'd be redundant with my older post for cross-element spells. However, I think the Convergent domains are pretty sparse, so I made a few of those.

Justice
Spheres: Law, Good

Spoiler

Show

Granted Power
Choose one

1. You gain a +4 morale bonus to saving throws against fear effects. At 6th level, this increases to Aura of Courage, as paladin.
2. You may ask the gods for judgement of any action at will. This is identical to casting Augury, except that it tells you if an an action is just or unjust instead of its normal effect.

1 - Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
1 - Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
2 - Calm Emotions: Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
2 - Shield Other: You take half of subject’s damage.
3 - Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
3 - Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.

Freedom
Spheres: Chaos, Good

Spoiler

Show

Granted Power
Choose one

1. You gain a +4 morale bonus to saving throws against compulsion effects. At 6th level, this increases to Aura of Resolve, as Paladin of Freedom.
2. You may act as if under the effects of Freedom of Movement for one round per level per day.

1 - Faerinaal's Hymn: One evil creature per level can't make AoOs.
1 - Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
2 - Freedom, Lesser: Removes any of the restraining effects Freedom of Movement negates.
2 - Remove Paralysis: Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
3 - Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
3 - Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.

Corruption
Spheres: Chaos, Evil

Spoiler

Show

Granted Power
Choose one

1. Whenever you cause a fear ability, those affected have a -2 penalty to their saves. At 6th level, this becomes an Aura of Fear, as Aura of Courage, but instead causes enemies to be Shaken (DC 13+Cha).
2. When channeling positive energy or turning undead, you may instead channel negative energy and rebuke undead.

1 - Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
1 - Doom: Subject is Shaken.
2 - Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
2 - Undetectable Alignment: Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
3 - Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened.
3 - Animate Dead: Creates undead skeletons and zombies.

Tyranny
Spheres: Law, Evil

Spoiler

Show

Granted Power
Choose one

1. Enchantment (Compulsion) spells you cast have +2 to their save DCs. At 6th level, you gain an Aura of Despair, as Paladin of Tyranny.
2. When channeling positive energy or turning undead, you may instead channel negative energy and rebuke undead.

1 - Confusion, Lesser: Subject is Confused for 1 round.
1 - Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
2 - Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
2 - Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
3 - Bestow Curse: -6 to an ability score; -4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action
3 - Animate Dead: Creates undead skeletons and zombies.

Chaotic Evil's name seems a little off... Anarchy? Entropy? Eh. I considered Contagion for the evil stuff, but decided Animate Dead was better and makes the energy swap thing more viable. I also made it "you may" for the same reason. Might do some more in a bit. How do you feel about Natural/Intent crosses?

I also still think Spellblade's metamagic should be altered a bit. It makes Quicken Spell amazing, with Twin Spell and Energy Admixture also in the running, because if you use them your encounters are likely to be shorter than your spell cooldowns. This makes the metamagic essentially free, which is probably not your intent. Maybe lowered caster level or a cooldown on metamagic itself? Just suggestions though, it's not game breaking on its own. Can't think of anything else at the moment, so that's it anything look reasonable?

[WindStruck]

Ok, here's a comment/suggestion: since this whole system seems quite different, there's absolutely no reason that if the brawler class had a full BaB progression, that they'd HAVE to get an iterative attack. If that was the only thing stopping you, you could just throw it out.

[Rizban]

Conversation from the other thread:

Uh, Rizban, is there a reason why Brawler is 3/4 BAB?

Because it gets bonus attacks from flurry and an expanded crit range and crit multiplier with its weapons. It had to take a hit somewhere...

That is true, but as a combat-oriented class, I think it only makes sense to have full BaB progression. I think it might pan out better if the class had full BaB, but the flurry abilities had a bigger penalty. Basically, I think it should be a strategic choice for a player to decide whether they want to use it or not, not a no-brainer in every possible scenario.

I'm going to stick by my design on that one, as giving it full BAB is also giving it an iterative attack.

Brawler is supposed to be an agile skirmisher that focuses on speed and positioning and delivering a few telling blows rather than standing there slugging it out for as many hits as possible. Flurry of Strikes already allows it to do more attacks than the two full BAB classes, and I don't feel like it will remain balanced against the other two if it has the same BAB, 2 more attacks than they can make, a much higher chance of dealing criticals, and doing much more damage on a critical.

If I were to give Brawler full BAB, I would have to reduce Flurry to a single extra attack and increase the penalty for it to keep it balanced. As a kind of defining feature of the class, I don't want to discourage its use. Keep in mind that the Brawler is not the 3.X Monk. It can actually hold its own with the other classes as written and even out performs them in some cases.

Ok, here's a comment/suggestion: since this whole system seems quite different, there's absolutely no reason that if the brawler class had a full BaB progression, that they'd HAVE to get an iterative attack. If that was the only thing stopping you, you could just throw it out.

I'd rather not just outright change the rule on how BAB works from how the core d20 mechanic has it defined. The system is designed to work on the d20 chassis as opposed to rewriting it. I really don't see why missing out on +2 BAB is that big of an issue, especially if you're just going to deny them the iterative attack anyway.

[WindStruck]

It's not a terribly big issue. I just thought the option to make a single, more-accurate attack would be nice. I was originally going to suggest that you specifically state that if the brawler makes a single attack that round, that they are treated as having full BaB, but the end result was pretty much what I suggested.

Ironically, when you said THIS:

Brawler is supposed to be an agile skirmisher that focuses on speed and positioning and delivering a few telling blows rather than standing there slugging it out for as many hits as possible.

I thought you achieved the exact opposite.

It seems to me the brawler just runs up to someone and starts pummeling them as fast as possible. Sure there's the speed, but I don't see the "positioning". All its abilities basically revolve around increasing number of attacks, enhancing criticals of those attacks, and increasing movement speed.

The gladiator is more what you described as a goal for your brawler. Its Unorthodox maneuvers are perfect examples, where you line foes up that are next to each other, directly behind one another, or even on opposite sides of you. And in order to help do this, the gladiator can take a 10-foot step.

I think if you swapped a few of their qualities, you could have two quite distinct classes: One that engages in combat quickly and dishes out a lot of damage while shrugging off the attacks of his enemies. The other, who positions himself in the battlefield strategically, performing skillful maneuvers and vexing his foes that never mastered the advanced techniques of fighting.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, I feel the brawler should have full BAB for the same reason Warblade does: Attack Bonus, not full attacks. It's just a matter of accuracy. They still won't be standing toe-to-toe with people, given the d8 HD, Light Armor only, and no additional source of AC.

[WindStruck]

Something else I just realized. Brawler only has proficiency with simple weapons. That honestly ought to be all the "hit" in damage you need, and it seems to make sense... at least if we go along with the sort of hard-hitting no-technique fighter view.

[Rizban]

Brawler focuses on hit-and-run. It's designed to get multiple attacks, yes, but it's meant to do so without standing around to do so, remaining highly mobile. It's built to encourage that play style while discouraging another one. By "positioning," I mostly meant moving in for a flank.

Gladiator is focused on being able to manipulate the battlefield a bit, hit very consistently, and use tactical options offensively. It's the trained warrior.

Sentinel is meant to stand there and take abuse and throw itself in harm's way for an ally while still being able to do some damage when the enemy gets close.

The point is to keep each distinct from the others so that class is a meaningful choice. If you introduce larger amounts of overlap into the base classes, then they start to lose that.

Frankly, I feel that the last paragraph in the earlier post already describes the two classes well.

As to weapon proficiencies on the Brawler, there are a couple of Archetypes that provide some martial weapon proficiencies. So, I don't feel the lack there is too significant.


On another note, I've run numbers on these classes pretty extensively. On average, the three classes are pretty equally effective. The Brawler and Gladiator do pretty similar damage on average, but the Brawler is more likely to do more damage and to end fights through damage. Sentinel falls behind some on damage output, but it's supposed to do that.

[r2d2go]

Honestly, gotta agree with Rizban on the Brawler thing. Since "A brawler may make a flurry of strikes as part of any melee attack action using any weapons with which he is proficient", it really encourages moving around rather than staying - you get the same attacks regardless. If you added BAB, it'd change this at 6th level, because now you have to full attack to get your value's worth. Additionally, as a Brawler, you have a continuous 10-40% chance of hitting regardless of attack bonus in the form of a critical hit (and also get a sizeable bonus to confirm), which means that your attack bonus is somewhat less important. The addition of what is essentially a bonus to fast Tumble makes the class an excellent skirmisher overall. In my opinion, adding BAB is both unnecessary and detracts from the skirmishing aspect.

On a related note, Brawler+Skirmisher is pretty powerful keen weapons are pretty viable in terms of cost at level 6, which means with a +2 strength race and a +1 stat item, you can have a 13-20/x3 +1 keen falchion, attacking at +12 for 2d4+11+2d6 for an average of 41.4 damage per hit, which is pretty solid. It's not really comparable to AoE damage (or even just a volley of Scorching Ray for 24d6), but it's excellent for (somewhat) sustained melee damage, and only drops 5.6 damage without the capstone.

[Vhaidara]

I suppose. I guess it's just an instinctive reaction to seeing
Primary Melee
d8 HD
3/4 BAB
Flurry of Blows
Fast Movement

[Rizban]

I suppose. I guess it's just an instinctive reaction to seeing
Primary Melee
d8 HD
3/4 BAB
Flurry of Blows
Fast Movement

Which is why I'm not changing it. This isn't your 3.x Monk.

Brawler was the first class I designed for this system. I balanced all of the other classes around it. Since it is the standard for balance for the system, it competes pretty well with everything but munchkined spellcasters.

[WindStruck]

Could you explain how moving around is "encouraged". I just don't see it. I mean, you CAN. But that doesn't mean you should.

And we shouldn't be conflating this with the skirmisher archetype and always assuming we go brawler+skirmisher. It is the skirmisher that benefits from moving around, and that's how it should be labeled.

[Rizban]

Could you explain how moving around is "encouraged". I just don't see it. I mean, you CAN. But that doesn't mean you should.

And we shouldn't be conflating this with the skirmisher archetype and always assuming we go brawler+skirmisher. It is the skirmisher that benefits from moving around, and that's how it should be labeled.

Bonuses to move speed, light armor only, lower HD, no penalties to attacks for movement.

[r2d2go]

Could you explain how moving around is "encouraged". I just don't see it. I mean, you CAN. But that doesn't mean you should.

In addition to what rizban said, you get hit about half as often if you move around (more against enemies with lots of attacks, less against enemies with just one). The increased speed means that you can move in for flanking and attack. Then, next turn, you can attack and move back. This forces your opponent to either forgo a full attack and charge, or attack someone closer (like a Sentinel or Gladiator, who are both more durable). Next turn, you can move and attack again. In this way, you essentially force your opponent to not get full attacks on you, yet you get almost your full value of attacks every turn. Plus, you gain quite literally nothing from not moving, unless you somehow have more attacks than your BAB normally allows (haste, natural attacks).

And we shouldn't be conflating this with the skirmisher archetype and always assuming we go brawler+skirmisher. It is the skirmisher that benefits from moving around, and that's how it should be labeled.

Probably shouldn't have used that as an example, especially since that little optimization was mostly just to show power, not argue for mobility. Here's another example, though: If you use Brute instead, when you're raging, you have +4 Con for a little durability, you have +2 to attack, and you deal almost as much (34.2 damage an attack). If you take Huntsman, your critical threat range increases to 12-20/x3, and if you're against a primary favored enemy you do significantly more damage (51.3 damage an attack) - even with just base +2 favored enemy bonus, you're dealing 43.7 a hit. Mostly I was just trying to say that it's a pretty powerful class

[Jeriah]

Huntsman also grants some weapon proficiencies.

[r2d2go]

Remembered this thread, throwing up part two of the adventure using these rules:

A New World (IC)

A New World (OoC, character sheets)

[Rizban]

Changelog

• General: Updated codes across all tables.
• General: Formatting changes across all Classes and Archetypes
  
  
• Class: Brawler – Corrected typo.
• Class: Magus – Great Lore bonus increased.
  
  
• Archetype: Assassin – Slight wording changes.
• Archetype: Beastmaster – Removed errant reference to “druid”.
• Archetype: Duelist – Changed Rhythm ability restrictions.
• Archetype: Force Adept
  • Piercing Missiles – Clarification
  • Force Wave – Slight change
  • Magus – Missile Master – Changed to 3 rounds.
• Archetype: Hoplite
  • Shield Offensive – Tower shield clarification.
  • Defensive Maneuvers – Clarification
  • Brawler Befuddling Blow – Slight change
• Archetype: Huntsman – Changed armor proficiency
• Archetype: Pugilist – Reworded Unarmed Strike ability.
• Archetype: Red Mage – Nimble added armor limitation.
• Archetype: Skirmisher – Nimble added armor limitation.
• Archetype: Templar
  • Channeling – Clarification
  • Restorative Touch – Wording change.
• Archetype: Trapsmith – Damage resistance from Trap Defense ability given a damage type.
  
  
• Feats: Finally fixed feats table after forum updates.
• Feats: Slight changes to metamagic.

[Jeriah]

Changelog

• General: Updated codes across all tables.
• General: Formatting changes across all Classes and Archetypes
  
  
• Class: Brawler – Corrected typo.
• Class: Magus – Great Lore bonus increased.
  
  
• Archetype: Assassin – Slight wording changes.
• Archetype: Beastmaster – Removed errant reference to “druid”.
• Archetype: Duelist – Changed Rhythm ability restrictions.
• Archetype: Force Adept
  • Piercing Missiles – Clarification
  • Force Wave – Slight change
  • Magus – Missile Master – Changed to 3 rounds.
• Archetype: Hoplite
  • Shield Offensive – Tower shield clarification.
  • Defensive Maneuvers – Clarification
  • Brawler Befuddling Blow – Slight change
• Archetype: Huntsman – Changed armor proficiency
• Archetype: Pugilist – Reworded Unarmed Strike ability.
• Archetype: Red Mage – Nimble added armor limitation.
• Archetype: Skirmisher – Nimble added armor limitation.
• Archetype: Templar
  • Channeling – Clarification
  • Restorative Touch – Wording change.
• Archetype: Trapsmith – Damage resistance from Trap Defense ability given a damage type.
  
  
• Feats: Finally fixed feats table after forum updates.
• Feats: Slight changes to metamagic.

Just went over those. Looks good to me. You clarified a few of the things my local group had questions about, so that's great.