OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

[Wraithfighter]

I think the argument that's going on here is just good evidence of why it's extremely unlikely that the Oracle is involved in anyway here.

It's really just a general issue with that type of character, having a character with the potential for full information about what's going to happen in the future is too destabilizing for a story. They know too much, and thus have to either be written as intentionally unhelpful or malicious in order to avoid that power being overused, or have (usually arbitrary) limits placed on their power in order to justify why the heroes can't know exactly how to solve all of their problems.

It's likely why Rich wrote the Oracle as he did: The Oracle's a fair bit of an SOB who seems to delight in giving answers as vague and confusing as possible, has an extremely powerful spell cast over his area to limit how much knowledge people can leave with, only will sell one answer per applicant, has not insignificant trials required before reaching him, and charges a small fortune per answer.

Because this kind of character can be useful. It aids in foreshadowing, unsticking a plot, building up tension, allowing characters to know things they otherwise shouldn't, and generally just reassuring the audience of how things will turn out.

But overuse it, and the story feels cheapened as a result. We all know how powerful that kind of ability would be, how it could be outright abused, so the more prominent it becomes, the more we wonder why its not being abused in that manner... unless it is abused like that, and just becomes cheap.

Want to know how I think Serini found out what happened in Soon's throne room?

She has a TeeVo type scrying device.

How did she get past the warding that blocked Xykon?

Because the Sapphire Guard are a league of Paladins with sacred oaths, and that would include holding to that old agreement that the Scribbles be allowed to keep tabs on the status of the other gates, meaning that Soon had an exception carved out in the ward that allows scrying by certain people or with a specific passcode or something.

Seems about as likely as anything. We'll find out eventually, we don't need to get into a giant row about the mechanics of oracles in the meantime.

[hungrycrow]

Want to know how I think Serini found out what happened in Soon's throne room?

She has a TeeVo type scrying device.

How did she get past the warding that blocked Xykon?

Because the Sapphire Guard are a league of Paladins with sacred oaths, and that would include holding to that old agreement that the Scribbles be allowed to keep tabs on the status of the other gates, meaning that Soon had an exception carved out in the ward that allows scrying by certain people or with a specific passcode or something.

Seems about as likely as anything. We'll find out eventually, we don't need to get into a giant row about the mechanics of oracles in the meantime.

Seems odd that Soon would give Serini a backdoor to spy on his throne room right after agreeing to never contact each other.

[Ruck]

By your argument, virtually all players in the comic are not sane. The Scribbles did not ask the Oracle if their Gates would be destroyed. The Order did not ask the Oracle where they would finally destroy Xykon. Eugene did not ask the Oracle any follow up questions concerning Xykon. Redcloak did not ask the Oracle, before he ever met Xykon, if The Plan would work.

Would you like to claim that every major player in the comic (sans Xykon) is not sane? Or, would you consider that characters in the comic do not have the same value you do on gleaning all possible knowledge from the Oracle?

Given the Oracle's love of cryptic answers and screwing with people, even those questions might not get straightforward answers. "Where will we finally destroy Xykon?" "In the volcano you throw his phylactery in," or "You won't" (because Redcloak will), or what have you, would not be helpful. Heck, the second one would likely be actively harmful.

[Wraithfighter]

Seems odd that Soon would give Serini a backdoor to spy on his throne room right after agreeing to never contact each other.

Oh, I don't necessarily mean that he intended to give Serini a backdoor to spy on him, just that the mechanics of the monitoring system might also enable a backdoor for other scrying as well.

[Peelee]

Ah, well I misunderstood then. I though I'd seen you say somewhere that Serini might be friendly with the Oracle. So your theory is that she has to pass the three tests and pay the fee each time?

I think that's a fairly safe bet, yes. For everyone, of course.

I'm not saying that Oracle didn't answer those questions, or that those answers were completely unhelpful. But we haven't seen the Oracle giving anyone a detailed and clear explanation which would account for the information Serini seems to know about the destruction of Soon's gate. Again, I had thought your theory was that Serini had a firendly relationship and therefore got better answers than others. Is that not right?

I never theorized she had a friendly relationship. I have, in fact, explicitly refuted this at least once before (I previously believed with you, but if we're having this question now, then maybe with Psyren instead?) Regardless, again, I have only ever speculated in this guess that she treated him like a person and did not do things like hang him out a window or stab him with blunted daggers. Perhaps the constant misunderstanding of what I am saying is an issue here? Anyway, while we haven't seen the Oracle give clear and detailed answers, we know that he has. Adult Black Dragon. And, actually, a second time that we have seen, with Roy. Heck, he even tried to help Roy out there.

How did she get past the warding that blocked Xykon?

Because the Sapphire Guard are a league of Paladins with sacred oaths, and that would include holding to that old agreement that the Scribbles be allowed to keep tabs on the status of the other gates, meaning that Soon had an exception carved out in the ward that allows scrying by certain people or with a specific passcode or something.

The agreement that specified no spying or checking in or anything? Your claim is that the system that shows which gates are active, without any visuals other than what is built into the system, allows exactly what they disallowed?

I'm not dying on the "Serini maybe talked to the Oracle" hill, but I will die on the "she didn't scry the throne room" hill.

[Hurkyl]

I never theorized she had a friendly relationship.

I actually shared Liquor Box's misconception; I thought the friendly relationship thing had been from you, working backwards from the hypothesis that Serini was getting useful and detailed information from the Oracle.

[Peelee]

I actually shared Liquor Box's misconception; I thought the friendly relationship thing had been from you, working backwards from the hypothesis that Serini was getting useful and detailed information from the Oracle.

So my refutation was actually less than I remembered:

That would be a problem if I had ever claimed he would be friendly and jovial to her. My suggestion was that he simply didn't jerk her around like he did the Order. Possibly due to her not treating him like the Order did, for example.

So I could have been more clear there, that's my bad. Now, here's the other thing. I had to go back way farther than I thought to find that, which means this has been going on for much longer than I ever intended it to. And, since I'm not married to the thought, I'm gonna go ahead and abandon defending it.

[Wraithfighter]

The agreement that specified no spying or checking in or anything? Your claim is that the system that shows which gates are active, without any visuals other than what is built into the system, allows exactly what they disallowed?

I'm not dying on the "Serini maybe talked to the Oracle" hill, but I will die on the "she didn't scry the throne room" hill.

I mean, that same agreement is one that she and Girard knowingly violated by lying about where Girard's Gate was located, and we've recently seen her reveling in how much fun it is to lie to Paladins. I don't see her and Girard caring all that much about their oaths to not spy on the other gates.

And yeah, using a small, necessary vulnerability as an opening to get unauthorized access? Obviously scrying and computer hacking are different things that work differently, but it's not outside the realm of possiblility.

Could be 100% wrong. Could be something else entirely. I just find discussing them in a discussion thread to be interesting, rather than getting into an argument about it all.

[bunsen_h]

The agreement that specified no spying or checking in or anything? Your claim is that the system that shows which gates are active, without any visuals other than what is built into the system, allows exactly what they disallowed?

Unfortunately, we know that the information in that last panel is not 100% reliable, as Dorukan and Lirian continued their relationship. So it's not out of the question that the agreement wasn't that cut-and-dried, let alone Serini sticking with it when the gates started going down.

[bronzeclaw]

Want to know how I think Serini found out what happened in Soon's throne room?

She has a TeeVo type scrying device.

How did she get past the warding that blocked Xykon?

Because the Sapphire Guard are a league of Paladins with sacred oaths, and that would include holding to that old agreement that the Scribbles be allowed to keep tabs on the status of the other gates, meaning that Soon had an exception carved out in the ward that allows scrying by certain people or with a specific passcode or something.

My headcanon is this:
Serini is an Epic Rogue.
Gather Information is in class for Rogues.
She appears to have a teleport wand.
Xykon has no message discipline, and has probably told the story 10 times in the presence of hundreds of goblins. (Of which dozens have lived to repeat it.) A bunch of different versions are quite common among the goblins of the city.

After Serini takes a 20 on disguise self, and then teleports to near the city. She takes a 10 on gather information (+3 charisma mod + 2 synergy knowledge gates + 2 synergy more wealth than goblins dream of + 2 synergy my disguise as a trust-able goblin grandma +20 skill) = 39 on the roll, lets her piece together the story well enough to bluff a taunt.

But that is playing to her strengths, which is forbidden in this comic, right?

[Bookwyrm13]

Honestly I can see the Oracle being behind it. I can also see the Oracle not being behind it.

The Oracle is basically just a funnier version of what almost all oracles in fiction are: A well-disguised plot device. Some more well-disguised than others.

Anyone who went to the Oracle--The Order, the Ancient Black Dragon, and possibly Serini, got exactly one thing, the only thing they were ever going to get: The information they needed to move the plot forward.

And likewise, the Oracle withheld (either through his own ignorance or through malice) the one thing he was always going to withhold: Information that would have stalled the plot if the asker had it.

That's what Oracles are for, in any narrative, and the level of friendliness they have with the asker is irrelevant. And that's also partially why I think it's unfair to judge someone's choices for not asking the right questions. By that logic, one might call Durkon and Roy morons for not knowing what a phylactery was because "Hey, they could have asked the Oracle how to permanently destroy Xykon."

[Liquor Box]

I think that's a fairly safe bet, yes. For everyone, of course.

I never theorized she had a friendly relationship. I have, in fact, explicitly refuted this at least once before (I previously believed with you, but if we're having this question now, then maybe with Psyren instead?) Regardless, again, I have only ever speculated in this guess that she treated him like a person and did not do things like hang him out a window or stab him with blunted daggers. Perhaps the constant misunderstanding of what I am saying is an issue here? Anyway, while we haven't seen the Oracle give clear and detailed answers, we know that he has. Adult Black Dragon. And, actually, a second time that we have seen, with Roy. Heck, he even tried to help Roy out there.

Ah, well I misunderstood then. I thought you were suggesting Serini would have got more out of the Oracle than others (like the Order) did.

I still don't think that the Oracle telling Serini about Soon's gate is a good explanation. We haven't seen the Oracle give anyone answers with that sort of detail to anyone that I can recall (not the dragon, who he only gave a name to). So it would be inconsistent with his depiction to date that he gave Serini a full account of Soon's gate. If she'd asked him, she would probably just have gotten Miko's name.

[danielxcutter]

First of all I'm pretty sure that's not how Gather Information works. Aside from the skill checks those are all ad-hoc bonuses.

Second, Gather Information isn't supposed to let you learn stuff from people who wouldn't know - there's only like three non-divine beings who would know the specifics; Xykon, Miko, and Soon, and two of them are dead.

Third, yes, not playing to their strengths is extremely common in this comic.

[Wraithfighter]

there's only like three non-divine beings who would know the specifics; Xykon, Miko, and Soon, and two of them are dead.

...

......

Okay, wild theory, 99% chance of being entirely wrong.........

...but is there a spell or something that would allow Serini to speak to Soon? She knew him, she has that personal connection that would get him to speak honestly about what happened, is there some mechanical way that could work out?

[The MunchKING]

...

......

Okay, wild theory, 99% chance of being entirely wrong.........

...but is there a spell or something that would allow Serini to speak to Soon? She knew him, she has that personal connection that would get him to speak honestly about what happened, is there some mechanical way that could work out?

I thought Planar Ally. You basically have to read into the bit about being able to call for a specific outsider, and assume that bit gets around the bit about it normally asking your God or one aligned with your Alignment for a Planar Ally, but it's not more of a stretch than some of the stuff that already has happened in OotS.

[danielxcutter]

Getting to talk with Soon probably would be a bit easier than any random dead soul, given that Serini and Soon are both in the loop and the stakes are big, but I wouldn't hold my breath just yet.

Also, I presume that he'd have explained a bit better if that was the case.

[bronzeclaw]

Aside from the skill checks those are all ad-hoc bonuses.

True, but I would allow them (on the other hand, I may be an overly nice GM)

Second, Gather Information isn't supposed to let you learn stuff from people who wouldn't know - there's only like three non-divine beings who would know the specifics; Xykon, Miko, and Soon, and two of them are dead.

You don't think that Xykon would have thought that the story of how he destroyed the paladins, and how it was a paladin* who destroyed what they had spent the last century protecting, thus rescuing Xykon from Soon was a hilarious story? I think he would have told it enough that finding out about the story from the local goblins would only be DC 15 or 20. The rest of the DC is to put together the contradictions in the multiple stories to see the truth behind them.

* Yes, Xykon may have recognized that Miko was not a paladin, but I don't think he is unwilling to lie to make the story funnier.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon isn't exactly much of a chatter; he mostly spends his time making magic items, preparing stuff for the world domination plan or securing his phlyactery, or just having fun watching people suffer.

[Petrocorus]

Second, Gather Information isn't supposed to let you learn stuff from people who wouldn't know - there's only like three non-divine beings who would know the specifics; Xykon, Miko, and Soon, and two of them are dead..

Actually, three of them are dead.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Hm, "new knowledge that exists outside of 'all knowledge'" sounds a lot like "not total foreknowledge".

Well, yes, because "total knowledge" is self contradictory.

The premise is fatally flawed in the same way that "suppose I had a square triangle" is.

Second, Gather Information isn't supposed to let you learn stuff from people who wouldn't know - there's only like three non-divine beings who would know the specifics; Xykon, Miko, and Soon, and two of them are dead.

O-Chul was at the gate.

O-Chul told Hinjo, Lien, and Vaarsuvius. Haley and Elan were almost in ear shot, and I except Vaarsuvius would have told the rest of the order anyway.

Hinjo mentioned summoning a scribe in that conversation. The scribe was never on panel (what a boring character that would be), but I'd expect a formal debriefing to cover a lot of detail.

[Jasdoif]

That's just it, though: Total foreknowledge and perfect information means you already know exactly what actions will be taken, including your own.

This has actually been explicitly hashed out by mathematicians.

An oracle's actions are determined by "all knowledge" and are thus actually new knowledge that exists outside of "all knowledge".

If oracle B is better than oracle A, then oracle B can know what oracle A will do, but not themself.

Hm, "new knowledge that exists outside of 'all knowledge'" sounds a lot like "not total foreknowledge".Hm, "new knowledge that exists outside of 'all knowledge'" sounds a lot like "not total foreknowledge".

Well, yes, because "total knowledge" is self contradictory.

The premise is fatally flawed in the same way that "suppose I had a square triangle" is.

Ah, so when you said "this has been explicitly hashed out by mathematicians", what you meant was "making assumptions that void the core premise leads to a different conclusion". Either that or there's some key delineation between "total foreknowledge" and "total knowledge" that I'm missing....

[danielxcutter]

Okay, I think this conversation has been sufficiently derailed that it's smashing through a nearby farm.

[hungrycrow]

Okay, I think this conversation has been sufficiently derailed that it's smashing through a nearby farm.

If only we could have seen this coming, maybe we'd have avoided it.

[Trafalgar]

Okay, I think this conversation has been sufficiently derailed that it's smashing through a nearby farm.

Yeah, lets get back to the most important question brought up on this thread:

Are Trolls mammals? If so, where are their nipples?

[Doug Lampert]

Okay, I think this conversation has been sufficiently derailed that it's smashing through a nearby farm.

If only we could have seen this coming, maybe we'd have avoided it.

Yeah, lets get back to the most important question brought up on this thread:

Are Trolls mammals? If so, where are their nipples?

What?! The most important question of all threads is something related to Star Wars, for instance, is the Rancor a mammal is a reasonable most important question, but trolls, it's in the SRD, they're giants, thus they are not plants (different creature type) and

Giant Type
A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size.

Features
A giant has the following features.

8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
Good Fortitude saves.
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
A giant possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Low-light vision.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as any natural weapons.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Giants not described as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Giants are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Giants eat, sleep, and breathe.

Note the bold, thus giants have nipples since humanoid shaped things have nipples.

[Metastachydium]

Note the bold, thus giants have nipples since humanoid shaped things have nipples.

That's a highly debatable reading. Lizardfolk and kenkus are humanoids, so their shape is by definition a humanoid shape (which seems to mostly just mean 'has arms for manipulation and legs for locomotion as well as at least one discernible head'), but they are not mammals.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Ah, so when you said "this has been explicitly hashed out by mathematicians", what you meant was "making assumptions that void the core premise leads to a different conclusion". Either that or there's some key delineation between "total foreknowledge" and "total knowledge" that I'm missing....

The assumptions being made here are "total foreknowledge exists" and "decisions are made based on available foreknowledge", I suspect your problem is with the second one.

If we use watchmen as an example. Dr. Jonathan Osterman was someone who would prevent JFK's assassination if he knew how.

Dr. Jonathan Osterman become Dr. Manhattan and acquired Total Foreknowledge^TM.

Dr. Manhattan does not think. I do not mean that he thinks and reaches the foretold conclusion, I mean that he doesn't process information in the way that a human, an animal, or even a simple transistor does.

When the learns JFK is going to be assassinated, he doesn't decide if that's a good or bad thing, consider what can be done, and decide a course of action. Quantum magic just overwrites his brain to do nothing.

[Fyraltari]

Are Trolls mammals? If so, where are their nipples?

On their middle toes. I will take no further questions.

[Metastachydium]

On their middle toes. I will take no further questions.

…
Being a female troll sounds… Uncomfortable.

Dr. Jonathan Osterman become Dr. Manhattan and acquired Total Foreknowledge^TM.

No he didn't. He experiences time in a non-linear fashion which makes terms like foreknowledge or hindsight inadequate.

[Ionathus]

…
Being a female troll sounds… Uncomfortable.

Eh, horses are walking around on their middle fingers. Life, uh, finds a way.