By request: Workshopping another Ranger

[Jaxby]

=Kane0;
Nature's Boon (2)

A while back, possibly in the original "subclass thread", there was a discussion of the ranger being an experienced user of nature, where the druid "was" nature. I think this is a good distinction and improves the flavor of both classes.

I believe this is also the case with this rework, where the druid part of the rangers is basically put in the warden subclass.

Therefore I was wondering whether Nature's Boon doesn't evoke a bit too much of the "nature is on your side, helping you"? Maybe a title like "Naturalist" or "Tools if the Hunt" or some such would hit the mark more.


When it comes to the role of the ranger in an adventure group, I feel like the straight forward position is the wilderness (or urban) guide. Should there be a class trait to support that? As it is now, any class with prof in survival would do as good as the ranger (outside combat). Or am I missing something?

[Kane0]

Haha, see what i mean about coming up with good names? Taking all suggestions, getting the right subtext and implied flavor is important.

Edit: yes i remember that. Druids value it for its own sake, revering and embodying it. Rangers calue it as a useful tool use it as such.

[Bjarkmundur]

I agree, but I also have to play Devil's Advocate here. 'Wilderness' should be substituted for 'Environment'. Not that you can't have nature-themed names, just that you have to have the features general enough to be applicable to environments other than wilderness. The Warden is all in nature-themed, sure, but the other subclasses and base class should have their flavor more malleable to allow for wider range of characters.

So far you've done a great jop a this. None of the base features apply explicitly to underpopulated areas... except for 'alert' part of Natural Explorer. The Climb does speed help this feature break through, though, since it is applicable to a wide range of scenarios. As Devil's Advocate I might suggest finding a word that encompasses all prolonged activities in the exploration pillar, in order for the feature to be applied to other non-wilderness scenarios. "You remain alert even during ________ activities, such as when foraging or navigating". With that kind of phrasing the DM can easily rule that it also applies to 'montage' scenes within a city, for example.
As a personal opinion I'd suggest dropping the alert bit altogether, and replace it with a stronger guide theme. It should accomplish the same thing, but in a more narrative and thematic way. Instead of 'You are very aware of your surroundings, sometimes, reperesting your competence withing the exploration pillar of the gameplay.' it becomes "When you succeed at something within the exploration pillar, your allies gain advantage on attempting the same thing". This could be climbing, swimming, keeping watch or any number of things within the exploration pillar of game-play. You go first and show them how its done, and with your success you give them some pointers during their attempt.

Scenario
You're group has just set camp, and you're on first watch. After a few uneventful hours your friend comes to relieve you. You stand together in silence for a moment before you take your leave. As you turn back you see your friend peering away from you into the distance, and you say.

"No, my friend, face this way. Your eyes are better used there. The wind is blowing north, so if anything nasty were to approach us from there, the wind will carry its scent and sound to us. An enemy approaching from this side won't give us the same luxury, so remain vigilant."

Man that's a satisfying scenario! You're playing the self-reliant ranger not for yourself, but to benefit your group.

Spoiler: rant

Show

I think the guide aspect of the ranger is a strong one. Not due to how pronounced it is within the class, but because no other class fulfills that fantasy. It doesn't matter how good YOU are at travelling, since you are travelling with a group 110% of the time. Often we see this represented by ways to avoid interesting aspects of the exploration pillar, which is a shame. The ranger is the embodiment of self-reliance within that pillar, sure, but for the benefit of the party. Since the ranger archetype is so... personal... the best way to achieve this feeling is allow the player to choose his own skills and expertise, then create a mechanic that says "Hey, you are really good at some things! Use this mechanic to showcase to your group how good you are at those things, since it is a big part of your character being good at those things. This will help you find meaningful uses for the things you are good at, and use the things your so good at for helping your party be good at them too! You're not just stroking your ego and fulfilling a personal fantasy, you are also roleplaying your character and benefiting your allies. Man it's good being good at those things."

Maybe the guide theme doesn't fit your Ranger, and maybe I am just projecting. I hope I'll at least see my trusty guide as a subclass one day.

----------------------------

I'm not sold on Defensive Tactics, but I'm not sure why.

[Jaxby]

I very much agree with Bjarkmundur's thoughts on the selfreliant ranger as a team player.

However I don't think there is a problem with referencing wilderness in the class descriptions. Firstly, it plays into the majority of ranger characters' lore/theme in a broad manner. I will be so bold as to assume that the urban hunter is quite a specific character. Secondly, it makes it clear which mechanic in the game the feature is supposed to apply to, without being overly game-language-y as I think "the exploration pillar of the game" is.

Edit: it would seem I mixed things up a bit. Bjarkmundur was talking about "environment" when referring to the wording, and exploration pillar in the second paragraph. My mistake.

I still think that an urban ranger is better suited for the rogue, as a character that is stealthy, good at percieving & moves through difficult terrain of the environment (ie. Traps and locks in the city). But I am not strongly opposed to an inclusive ranger wording, as long as it doesn't take away flavour and becomes generic.

[paladinn]

I very much agree with Bjarkmundur's thoughts on the selfreliant ranger as a team player.

However I don't think there is a problem with referencing wilderness in the class descriptions. Firstly, it plays into the majority of ranger characters' lore/theme in a broad manner. I will be so bold as to assume that the urban hunter is quite a specific character. Secondly, it makes it clear which mechanic in the game the feature is supposed to apply to, without being overly game-language-y as I think "the exploration pillar of the game" is.

Edit: it would seem I mixed things up a bit. Bjarkmundur was talking about "environment" when referring to the wording, and exploration pillar in the second paragraph. My mistake.

I still think that an urban ranger is better suited for the rogue, as a character that is stealthy, good at percieving & moves through difficult terrain of the environment (ie. Traps and locks in the city). But I am not strongly opposed to an inclusive ranger wording, as long as it doesn't take away flavour and becomes generic.

The whole "wilderness/environment" thing is one of my main issues with the ranger class. If being a nature boy is the ranger's "main thing", that's not enough to justify it being a class of its own. You can have a wilderness-flavored fighter; that would be less situational (and more useful) than having the class built around on being a nature boy. At least some of the core abilities need to be useful outside of a wilderness setting. Thus the "favored enemy/studied target/hinters mark/quarry" concept.

I disagree about rogue being a better urban ranger. A ranger, even if it's a class of its own, is a fighter at heart. Always has been, always should be. When I think "urban ranger", I think Batman. Yes, he's stealthy and all; but he is oe of the best melee fighters above all. And if he's a ranger, he's also good to have around even outside of his environment (a city, especially Gotham).

[Bjarkmundur]

When I think "urban ranger", I think Batman. Yes, he's stealthy and all; but he is oe of the best melee fighters above all. And if he's a ranger, he's also good to have around even outside of his environment (a city, especially Gotham).

Holy smokes, you're right! I never thought of Batman as a ranger, mostly due to the watered-down nature-boy theme. Batman has the combination of melee brawn and knowledge needed to face any challenge! I remember that scene from Hush where they are running from Ivy-Controlled Superman. He jumps into the bay and goes into the sewers where he has an edge against Supes. That's 100% ranger. Not only using his knowledge of his foe to stand a chance against The Man of Steel, he also uses his knowledge of the environment. Although none of these are intended as class feature, these are the things that put a Ranger above the Rogue as the go-to urban vigilante. Catwoman can claim the title of Rogue, but Batman is definitely a Ranger.

...Still gonna push that using-his-knowledge-to-benefit-his-allies mechanic, since swimming to the sewers doesn't really add up to much if my Paladin and Fighter both drown trying to get there. :/

It's the only way I can see to represent the self-reliance of the ranger in a meaningful way in a team-oriented game.

I'm still gonna 100% respect the opinions of the designers of this class, so this is the last time I mention this. Thanks for hearing me out guys ^^

[Jaxby]

All right, all right, you got me there; Batman is pretty cool.

[Jaxby]

For the guiding ability, could it be something like: When you attempt to do an x check, you can choose to guide any ally who can see and hear you within y feet. Allies who attempt an x check within the next minute, can add your wisdom modifier to their roll.

For the Hunter's improved Quarry feature at lvl 3, does this also apply to within ranged "reach" or would that be too powerful? Otherwise, the hunter would seem to be more melee oriented.

If it doesn't apply to ranged reach, maybe you could make a clause for enemies moving away from you provoke ranged attacks of opportunity to emulate chasing a prey. Or make the move within ranged reach a later upgrade of the ability.

For the mini-cap for Beastmaster, could it be an upgrade to monster CR? Like giving them CR 2 companions? Or is that a bit boring?

I was thinking about Wardens defence feat, and I thought something along the lines of absorb elements, would be thematic. Seeing as Wardens can already get that as a spell, how about making it Primeval Ward once per long rest or some such instead. It's a 6th lvl spell, which the Warden wont normally have available, so it wont be a double feature, but might be OP?

Alternatively you can give them a choice of 1 of the Investiture spells to cast per long rest. Or doing that as a minicap, though that might narrow the thematic scope of the Warden a bit.

Edit: Maybe a "get x levels of spell slots back on a short rest" like the druid's Natural Recovery for a cap stone. This would make it thematically widely applicable due to the options in spells chosen.

[Fnissalot]

For the mini-cap for Beastmaster, could it be an upgrade to monster CR? Like giving them CR 2 companions? Or is that a bit boring?

The CR on beasts mostly rise due to a small increase in damage and an increase in HP, and since the class overrides the HP, a CR 2 beast will mostly be for flavour. It doesn't add that much. Giant elks are intelligent but huge, and it is first at CR 3 that the damage starts spiking.

I would almost be ok to give them a CR up to 4 huge beast as a ribbon next to a mini-cap if you want it to go bonkers. The differences between killer whales and ankylosauruses and elephants are rather limited. (huge cr 3 and 4)

[Moxxmix]

Beast of large size or smaller and CR 1/4 or lower. Becomes CR 1/2 at level 7 and CR 1 at level 14

I'd glossed over this the first time, but this by itself is a great improvement over the PHB. It fits better to let players get something closer to what they imagine for their character. Obvious examples would be a bear (a la Grizzly Adams), where you can get a medium-sized black bear at level 7, now, or a large brown bear at level 14. Another fitting example would be the Lone Ranger's horse, Silver. (Though the Lone Ranger kinda just bleeds through into Beastmaster for the steed/companion, rather than represent this subclass.)

Beastmaster: [utility] (7)

One thing I was recently reminded of, with respect to animal companions, is when a wolf companion (for example) howls, and summons all the wolves nearby to aid you. I wouldn't necessarily make this a combat ability (but perhaps could be expanded to that at level 18), but perhaps something like:

"Your animal companion may summon any nearby animals of its own type to your location, as long as no combat is taking place. Summoned creatures will behave neutrally towards you and your allies. Your companion's support gives you advantage when negotiating favors or aid from other beasts."

I'm not sure I really worded that properly, but it's the idea that you can summon all the nearby wolf packs together, and negotiate some sort of deal with them. Perhaps they'll protect an important location for you, or avoid attacking a nearby village, or help you track down an enemy. Whatever it is, it's a deal, not a demand, so you'd have to offer something in exchange, but your companion's support gives you advantage on your Persuasion/Insight/Intimidation/etc rolls.

Note that the last sentence is not strictly tied to the summoning. Your companion helps you with any negotiations with beasts of any sort, whether summoned or randomly encountered, though circumstances may negate that.

This fits many instances of how animal companions aid a character in stories, and would be a cool moment for the player. It fits the Aquaman ranger (as counterpart to the Batman ranger).

~~~~

I agree that the "guide" archtype is needed, but I'm not sure yet how to fit it in. I don't know whether it needs its own subclass (and if there's enough to support an entire subclass based on it), or that there should be base class features that facilitate it.

~~~~

It's definitely interesting to see more and more examples of rangers from popular media pop up in the discussions. Most don't match the stereotype wilderness ranger that the PHB tries to correspond to, but they're almost certainly a character "type" that people are likely to try to create a character based on.

Batman — A surprising match, but definitely spot on for the urban "Hunter" type.
Aquaman — The aquatic Beastmaster.
Grizzly Adams — The only "traditional" ranger type, a Beastmaster living in the wilds.
Lone Ranger — Hunter/Bounty Hunter, with a spot of Beastmaster. Many other westerns have a similar character type. Can possibly stretch to spaghetti western stereotypes.
Sam & Dean from Supernatural — Hunters/Monster Slayers.
Aragorn — Melee theme, and survival focus.
Legolas — Archery theme, and guide.
Drizzt — Mishmash of ranger subclasses.

The more examples that come up, the easier it is to get a feel for the types of tools that should be available to the class.

[Kane0]

I'm not sold on Defensive Tactics, but I'm not sure why.

Probably because I took it straight from the PHB ranger, wasn't super inspired. Taking suggestions as always!

For the guiding ability, could it be something like: When you attempt to do an x check, you can choose to guide any ally who can see and hear you within y feet. Allies who attempt an x check within the next minute, can add your wisdom modifier to their roll.

When you use the help action, they get super-advantage?
Where would this fit in? Replacing some other feature?

For the Hunter's improved Quarry feature at lvl 3, does this also apply to within ranged "reach" or would that be too powerful? Otherwise, the hunter would seem to be more melee oriented.

If it doesn't apply to ranged reach, maybe you could make a clause for enemies moving away from you provoke ranged attacks of opportunity to emulate chasing a prey. Or make the move within ranged reach a later upgrade of the ability.

As written at the moment reach is for melee only yes. I'd absolutely look at an alternative that doesn't restrict between melee and ranged.

I was thinking about Wardens defence feat, and I thought something along the lines of absorb elements, would be thematic. Seeing as Wardens can already get that as a spell, how about making it Primeval Ward once per long rest or some such instead. It's a 6th lvl spell, which the Warden wont normally have available, so it wont be a double feature, but might be OP?

Alternatively you can give them a choice of 1 of the Investiture spells to cast per long rest. Or doing that as a minicap, though that might narrow the thematic scope of the Warden a bit.

Edit: Maybe a "get x levels of spell slots back on a short rest" like the druid's Natural Recovery for a cap stone. This would make it thematically widely applicable due to the options in spells chosen.

Hmm, how about throwing together some parts of the Investiture spells for an effect like the Paladin capstones? Don't want to make it too much like the 4e Monk though.

Spell recovery would be decent but earlier on, perhaps tied to some other resource like Hit Die so it's not just copying the Druid/Wizard.

One thing I was recently reminded of, with respect to animal companions, is when a wolf companion (for example) howls, and summons all the wolves nearby to aid you. I wouldn't necessarily make this a combat ability (but perhaps could be expanded to that at level 18), but perhaps something like:

"Your animal companion may summon any nearby animals of its own type to your location, as long as no combat is taking place. Summoned creatures will behave neutrally towards you and your allies. Your companion's support gives you advantage when negotiating favors or aid from other beasts."

Once per long rest by spending one minute you can call forth (2d4? 2d6?) beasts of CR 1 or lower from the surrounding area if they are available. These beasts are neutral to you and your allies.

[Moxxmix]

For the guiding ability, could it be something like: When you attempt to do an x check, you can choose to guide any ally who can see and hear you within y feet. Allies who attempt an x check within the next minute, can add your wisdom modifier to their roll.

When you use the help action, they get super-advantage?
Where would this fit in? Replacing some other feature?

Reviewing the intent, it seems to be a push to fit in the important and non-broken bits from Natural Explorer.

Alternate version:

If you spend 1 minute preparing the way, you can grant advantage (as the Help action) on skill checks involving Athletics, Stealth, or Survival to all party members that follow you.

I think the condition that they have to see you isn't the best. Also isn't really appropriate in combat, and adding time for prep seems appropriate and an easy way to make that explicit. And it only applies to certain types of skills. Maybe Acrobatics? (What circumstances it applies to is always debatable.) Survival is questionable, as I can't think of skill checks that would be using that skill to get past an obstacle; still including it.

Other things that might be related...

When a ranger is actively guiding a group, the speed of the group at Slow, Normal, and Fast travel paces is increased by one step. (IE: To 300, 400, and 500 feet per minute; 3, 4, and 5 miles per hour; and 24, 30, and 36 miles per day.)

So, a ranger leading the group allows them to travel at Normal speed with stealth, Fast speed without the Perception penalty, and one step above the Fast speed while taking the Perception penalty.

Basically, make travel faster, allow it for the entire group (vs originally only applying to the ranger if alone), don't ignore difficult terrain (the faster general speed allows you to get past it faster without removing it as a difficulty entirely), and ignore the bits about not becoming lost, or tracking creatures (tracking isn't part of exploring, and getting lost is part of exploring).


So, resummarizing it:

Natural Explorer
When you acquire Natural Explorer, gain either a climbing or swimming speed (your choice) equal to your walking speed. In addition, you gain the following benefits:

• While traveling, you remain alert to danger even when foraging, navigating or tracking.
• When you are actively guiding a group, its speed is increased by one step (+100 feet per minute, +1 mile per hour, or +6 miles per day) for a given travel pace. (See chart on p.182 of the PHB.)
• If you prepare the way, and succeed on your own skill check, you can grant advantage (as the Help action) on skill checks involving Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, or Survival to all party members that follow you past an obstacle.

Edit: Got rid of the time requirement for prepping the way, as it doesn't fit with something that might take a long time, such as climbing a mountain, and it's easier to adjudicate that it might be appropriate in a faster-paced, not-quite-combat scenario.

[Bjarkmundur]

Alright, let's get some replies in, now that Kane0 has given us his blessing.

@Jaxby
Wisdom modifier bonus to specific skill checks is a very clean way to represent the guide aspect! I think your version is the cleanest and most thematically representation of the guide ability.

@Kane0
I'm not a fan of superadvantage.
There has always been a problem that many different people have many different expectations from the ranger. To accommodate for this you have the selectable 'Nature Boon' feature. If the guide is one of these expectations, you can just add it there. I'm just unsure how to trigger or limit this feature. I also want to suggest 'Ranger Specialty' or 'Survival Knacks' as alternative names for Nature's Boon.

[Jaxby]

When you use the help action, they get super-advantage? Where would this fit in? Replacing some other feature?

Well optimally, I would think it has to come early, to be relevant in exploration. Giving it too late and the casters in the group will circumvent many of the problems facing a traveling group. Like scrying for information, using the "you find the path" spells, flying, teleporting etc. And also because class identity should come early.

So I think you would have to replace some of the low lvl features. It can't replace quarry, it can't replace subclass feature and it can't replace ability score increase. That leaves Natural Explorer, Nature's Boon and Keen Eye. Keen Eye, we also said, should come early. So that leaves Nature's Boon and Natural Explorer. I think Nature's Boon is pretty cool as it is, so I would probably put it in Natural Explorer, possibly removing the "remain alert" feat, if it gets too much.

Alternatively you could make it based on Charisma modifier (minimum of 1), if you want to make it more of a ribbon. Using the Charisma modifier could be fluffed as the ranger's ability to lead a group.

Hmm, how about throwing together some parts of the Investiture spells for an effect like the Paladin capstones? Don't want to make it too much like the 4e Monk though.

Yes, I also noticed, that it would become a bit too much like an elemental warrior after I wrote it, hence my edit. But I guess you could do something like what the paladin has and make it more ranger-y. Like;
"you melt into the foilage/sand-dunes/mob-of-people/terrain making your enemies think they are outnumbered and ambushed.
As a bonus action, you cast Mirror Image spell on yourself. As long as you have at least 1 duplicate, you can teleport to an unoccupied space within sight (or x feet) as a bonus action on each of your turns.

Some version of this could both capture the idea of the Tolkien ranger/mumakil ambush and, for more high magic settings, a ranger that becomes one with the sands and swirls about. It steps a bit on the toes of the Horizon Walker, but since that's not a subclass for this version yet, I guess its all right.

Spell recovery would be decent but earlier on, perhaps tied to some other resource like Hit Die so it's not just copying the Druid/Wizard.

Sure, you could change the mechanic of it. Like instead of using a hit die to heal during a short rest, you can spend x hit dice to recover spells slots with a combined level of x/2.

But I was just thinking, that since its a 1/3-caster, more spells is quite powerful. It's also not something the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster gets, making it somewhat unique.

One thing I was recently reminded of, with respect to animal companions, is when a wolf companion (for example) howls, and summons all the wolves nearby to aid you.

Once per long rest by spending one minute you can call forth (2d4? 2d6?) beasts of CR 1 or lower from the surrounding area if they are available. These beasts are neutral to you and your allies.

This would be quite cool. You could also make it a combat feature where you summon x allied beasts depending on the CR of your companion. That way you could maybe have 2 bears for a short duration, but a several giant badgers and swarms of bats/crows.
Thus summoning your batswarm as batman. Not sure how to make this sudden appearance of friendly badgers seem unmagical though (if we are trying to let the magic stay within the warden subclass).

[Kane0]

Right so it seems Natural Explorer as a name has too many bad connotations attached to it thanks to the PHB ranger, I think i'll rename that.
But second to that the second bullet point could be improved, and the guide aspect seems to have gotten plenty of traction so lets do some chopping and changing

Trailblazer:
- Climb or Swim speed equal to your movement
- While travelling, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom ability checks and saving throws you or your allies make.
So in practice this could stack with the Help action but won't typically work with Guidance or Resistance due to their casting time/durations.


I've also added in Beastmaster and Warden features based on ideas provided.

[paladinn]

Right so it seems Natural Explorer as a name has too many bad connotations attached to it thanks to the PHB ranger, I think i'll rename that.
But second to that the second bullet point could be improved, and the guide aspect seems to have gotten plenty of traction so lets do some chopping and changing

Trailblazer:
- Climb or Swim speed equal to your movement
- While travelling, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom ability checks and saving throws you or your allies make.
So in practice this could stack with the Help action but won't typically work with Guidance or Resistance due to their casting time/durations.


I've also added in Beastmaster and Warden features based on ideas provided.

I haven't been able to keep up with everything the last few days. Where/is our current ranger build posted?

I like the Trailblazer label for the wilderness features. Is this going to include the survival-type abilities? I know a lot of them are ribbons, but still flavorful.

If we're seriously considering expanding our ranger class to include other genres besides wilderness (like the "urban ranger"), Trailblazer might not be a bad label for the "nature boy" build. Many genres can "hunt". Trailblazer definitely invokes the wilderness theme, leading more civilized folk into the wild.

I can totally see Aquaman as an aquatic beastmaster. I hope that doesn't make Antman an insect beastmaster :P

I ws looking over the original OD&D/1e ranger. So many of the class features were front-loaded. I think doing the level progression is where I fall short, being such a grognard at heart.

So we have a nature boy subclass, a beastmaster and a Warden/"junior druid" sub. Do we need an archery-based sub as well? If Robin Hood is considered a prototype ranger, I'm not sure he fits that well into our 3 current subclasses. Little John might've been more of a nature guy than Robin!

[Bjarkmundur]

. Do we need an archery-based sub as well? If Robin Hood is considered a prototype ranger, I'm not sure he fits that well into our 3 current subclasses.

Let's not get crazy here. Isn't Hunter the weapon subclass? I mean, you get a terrain themed ability, but it's a resistance, so it's doesn't exactly scream 'I love camping'.

Robin Hood is a rogue btw. That famous arrow-through-an-arrow is his ability to hit a single, precise, monster-killing blow = sneak attack.

... Well, then there's this

For a more 'many different ways to use a bow' I'm hoping to get a separate dedicated class, more akin to the 4e Ranger. Maybe Grod's Tome of Battle gets the ball rolling for that kind of stuff. Volley, twin strike etc.

[paladinn]

Let's not get crazy here. Isn't Hunter the weapon subclass? I mean, you get a terrain themed ability, but it's a resistance, so it's doesn't exactly scream 'I love camping'.

Robin Hood is a rogue btw. That famous arrow-through-an-arrow is his ability to hit a single, precise, monster-killing blow = sneak attack.

... Well, then there's this

For a more 'many different ways to use a bow' I'm hoping to get a separate dedicated class, more akin to the 4e Ranger. Maybe Grod's Tome of Battle gets the ball rolling for that kind of stuff. Volley, twin strike etc.

I'm sorry, Robin Hood was totally a fighter. He was a soldier in the Crusades before returning and taking refuge in Sherwood. The question is, was he more a ranger or a fighter with archery style?

And since when does splitting an arrow equate to a sneak attack??

[Kane0]

I haven't been able to keep up with everything the last few days. Where/is our current ranger build posted?

I like the Trailblazer label for the wilderness features. Is this going to include the survival-type abilities? I know a lot of them are ribbons, but still flavorful.

If we're seriously considering expanding our ranger class to include other genres besides wilderness (like the "urban ranger"), Trailblazer might not be a bad label for the "nature boy" build. Many genres can "hunt". Trailblazer definitely invokes the wilderness theme, leading more civilized folk into the wild.

Do we need an archery-based sub as well?

First post on page 1, I've been editing everything in.

With how... contentious... exploration abilities are that is still in flux. I'm trying to do essentially the opposite of Natural Explorer (which is to say *not* take away from the exploration pillar and make the player and DM *want* to engage in it). So far it's two broad bullets instead of four specific ones, if it goes down well i'll be editing it in shortly.

The hunter is modeled as the Ranger+ like the Champion is the Fighter+, there is deliberately less flavor added as it's supposed to be just more of the same. The Beastmaster and Warden add additional flavor to match the additional mechanics they incorporate.
Once we're done with those three i'll be starting on another two for a total of five. For one of them i'm thinking Stalker which focuses on stealth and ambush, not sure what the last one could be but something based on mobility and archery (ala 'keeping your distance') is an option, using something like the battlemaster or Arcane archer trick shots.

[Kane0]

'Instinctive Guidance'
'Exemplary explorer'
'Intuitive scout'

Names are hard.

[Moxxmix]

So we have a nature boy subclass, a beastmaster and a Warden/"junior druid" sub. Do we need an archery-based sub as well? If Robin Hood is considered a prototype ranger, I'm not sure he fits that well into our 3 current subclasses. Little John might've been more of a nature guy than Robin!

Hunter is a hunter, not a nature boy, per sé. It's abstract enough to be usable with either a natural or urban focus, though it has the flexibility to gain a bit of benefit from different environments.

As for Robin Hood... He is an odd mix of rogue (thief), fighter/paladin (crusader, leader), and ranger (ensuring fairness, leader, stereotypical bow). And while he is known for his skill with the bow, I recall parts of the stories where he beat Little John with the quarterstaff, so he was definitely no slouch with other weapons. Which in turn suggests that the bow part of it is just memorable, not intrinsic. Regardless, it's really hard to pin down.

Aside:

The way I imagine differentiating a rogue from a ranger is from a slight difference in how they'd express a certain sentiment. A rogue would say, "You can't have this; it's mine." A ranger would say, "You can't have this; it's not yours." That is, a rogue is territorial and possessive, whereas a ranger is less interested in making a personal claim than in preventing someone else from making an unfair claim. This is basically how I see a typical nature ranger views others with respect to others intruding on nature; not quite druid level of rejection, but not said with the presumption that the ranger is the "owner". This evolved from my attempts to distinguish the classes with respect to the urban ranger.


Anyway...

The Horizon Walker is still fine as a subclass concept. It takes the "traveler" aspect to the extreme. Gloom Stalker focuses on ambushes. Monster Slayer is a specialized version of Hunter, fitting in the Sam & Dean mold.

There's really nothing in the workshop subclasses or the Xanathar subclasses that really define a weapon for ranger — whether melee or ranged — although there is the one Quarry bonus which involves reach, which implies a preference for melee. It might be nice to provide a ranged counterpart of some type, but even that would just be keeping things balanced, rather than giving ranged a serious focus.

The only archetype example with a major focus on bows right now is the fighter's Arcane Archer. That grabs hold of pretty much all the major trick shot ideas I can think of, which in turn makes it difficult to come up with an entirely new idea. It'll be a bit tricky to pitch an idea for a ranger version that doesn't feel too redundant.

Even my list of ranger characters doesn't have any that feel like they're trying to seriously focus on the bow (even the Lone Ranger, using a gun instead, wasn't dominated by his weapon usage). Though if you branch out into more westerns, you might get more trick shot types. But, again, Arcane Archer.

[Kane0]

I'm not sold on Horizon Walker as a full archetype, it falls into same problem as the urban ranger. It's just a ranger in a different environment to the 'default', and as such I don't think it should have a subclass all to itself just like ranger-in-space shouldn't. Mechanically speaking, the Horizon Walker is all about mobility. I think that concept can be rolled into the Stalker or Slayer.

Also, the Stalker and Slayer would be a great place to provide distinct melee/ranged subclasses past the original three which would be more generic.

Edit: On the topic of subclasses, Beastmaster and Warden are filled in but still have to complete the Hunter. The level 3 feature needs to be weapon-neutral and missing later level features.

[Fnissalot]

I think the limited amount of ranger only spells, excluding hunter mark, could be added to the wardens selection of spells. Conjure barrage, cordon of arrows, ensnaring strike, hail of thorns, lightning arrow, and zephyr strike are all ok rangers spells to me. Swift quiver and conjure volley could be made into fourth level spells so that they still could use it.

Also, I as both a GM and player would prefer if the beastmaster's beastcall conjured an amount of beasts with a combined CR of 2 and greater beastcall with a combined CR of 4 instead of up to 12 beast each with a CR up to 1/2 or 1. Primarily because I hate conjuring large amounts of things because it slows down the game. This lets you conjure one big thing. Secondarily because I will mostly never feel as cheated out of it by my dm. For example, 1 rat will be dissappointing compared to 12 giant crabs. By summoning a combined CR you will get more consistent results across different tables.

[Bjarkmundur]

The level 11 Quarry feature. It feels off taking the mark of the creature. You reaction is already your resource for damage mitigation and saving throw, I think the opportunity cost of using your reaction to reroll the attack might work. What are your thoughts on this?

'At level 11, when you miss a marked enemy with an attack, you can forgo your Quarry damage and use your reaction to reroll the attack roll.'

Can I get a clear design goal for the Trailblazer feature. It still doesn't sit right with me, and I think it's because I'm not fully understanding the designer's intentions for the feature. Sorry I'm being such a hardass

Camouflage: Remove 'also'
Healing Salves: As a part of a long rest, you can prepare a number of healing salves equal to your Wisdom modifier...

Feral Senses: When making an attack against a creature you cannot see you do not do so at a disadvantage, and....

Foe Slayer: When you hit a creature you have marked as your Quarry, resolve the attack as it were a critical hit?

Animal Companion: Did you do some damage calculations on this? If you already triggered your Quarry damage this round, can the beast trigger it a second time?

Quarry Bonus: If the rogue is the flanking striker, can we make ranger the opposite? If a creature has no other creatures (allies?) within 5 feet of it, it triggers your quarry damage as if it were marked by your Quarry feature? The phrasing is sloppy, but it might give the player a cool feeling for targeting singled out creatures. It's not a strict damage boost, but more of a quality of life feature, like many of the rogue's sneak attack subclass features.

Can we swap Primal Awareness for

As a part of a short rest, you can inspect the area around you to determine the number and nature of the creatures that have moved through the area in the past 24 hours. You ascertain when and where they entered the area, as well as when and where they left. Once you use this feature....

I'm having a hard time articulating why this is so much more fun to use during a session than the 1-mile version, but it is.

Primal Assault: We have a pretty cool theme going with this Quarry thing. Do you like better what you have already or "When you target only your Quarry with a spell, you can forgo your Quarry damage bonus to gain advantage on the spell's attack roll or give the target a disadvantage on the spell's saving throw"

Instinctive Recovery: How about Natural Recovery? As a part of a short rest you meditate on your surroundings, drawing upon its natural power to restore your magic. Works similar to arcane recovery and really pushes the nature-as-a-power-source? 1/LR?

[Kane0]

I think the limited amount of ranger only spells, excluding hunter mark, could be added to the wardens selection of spells. Conjure barrage, cordon of arrows, ensnaring strike, hail of thorns, lightning arrow, and zephyr strike are all ok rangers spells to me. Swift quiver and conjure volley could be made into fourth level spells so that they still could use it.

Also, I as both a GM and player would prefer if the beastmaster's beastcall conjured an amount of beasts with a combined CR of 2 and greater beastcall with a combined CR of 4 instead of up to 12 beast each with a CR up to 1/2 or 1. Primarily because I hate conjuring large amounts of things because it slows down the game. This lets you conjure one big thing. Secondarily because I will mostly never feel as cheated out of it by my dm. For example, 1 rat will be dissappointing compared to 12 giant crabs. By summoning a combined CR you will get more consistent results across different tables.

I'm currently doing the lazy thing and adjusting the ranger spells then putting them on the druid list.

The level 11 Quarry feature. It feels off taking the mark of the creature. You reaction is already your resource for damage mitigation and saving throw, I think the opportunity cost of using your reaction to reroll the attack might work. What are your thoughts on this?

'At level 11, when you miss a marked enemy with an attack, you can forgo your Quarry damage and use your reaction to reroll the attack roll.'

As a rule of thumb it's considered good practice to avoid features that use reactions during your turn.

Can I get a clear design goal for the Trailblazer feature. It still doesn't sit right with me, and I think it's because I'm not fully understanding the designer's intentions for the feature. Sorry I'm being such a hardass

In short, it's a good version of Natural explorer. It's a secondary feature for the level (after Quarry) that is supposed to enhance the ranger in the exploration pillar. It is also to cement the flavor of the ranger early on.
Sorry if that's a bit ambiguous, but that's sort of the problem.

Animal Companion: Did you do some damage calculations on this? If you already triggered your Quarry damage this round, can the beast trigger it a second time?

Not at all. The intent is that the beast can benefit from your quarry damage just like you, so you set it up and the both of you get the bonus damage

Quarry Bonus: If the rogue is the flanking striker, can we make ranger the opposite? If a creature has no other creatures (allies?) within 5 feet of it, it triggers your quarry damage as if it were marked by your Quarry feature? The phrasing is sloppy, but it might give the player a cool feeling for targeting singled out creatures. It's not a strict damage boost, but more of a quality of life feature, like many of the rogue's sneak attack subclass features.

That is a solid concept, I'll see what I can whip up!

Can we swap Primal Awareness for

As a part of a short rest, you can inspect the area around you to determine the number and nature of the creatures that have moved through the area in the past 24 hours. You ascertain when and where they entered the area, as well as when and where they left. Once you use this feature....

That seems like something survival could conceivably cover already, especially since you could be adding double proficiency AND double wisdom.

Instinctive Recovery: How about Natural Recovery? As a part of a short rest you meditate on your surroundings, drawing upon its natural power to restore your magic. Works similar to arcane recovery and really pushes the nature-as-a-power-source? 1/LR?

I specifically wanted to avoid that because Wizards and Druids are fullcasters that get that before 2nd level spells, you would be getting it faaaar later and that just feels bad. Just like the PHB ranger getting watered-down cunning action way too late.

[Jaxby]

I'm trying to do essentially the opposite of Natural Explorer (which is to say *not* take away from the exploration pillar and make the player and DM *want* to engage in it).

I agree whole heartedly with this assumption.

The hunter is modeled as the Ranger+ like the Champion is the Fighter+, there is deliberately less flavor added as it's supposed to be just more of the same. The Beastmaster and Warden add additional flavor to match the additional mechanics they incorporate.

I also think this is a good design choice.

Edit: On the topic of subclasses, Beastmaster and Warden are filled in but still have to complete the Hunter.

Some great new additions! I particularly like your Instinctive Recovery. It's new, it's fresh, and it takes the edge off of those moments where you feel like you wasted resources for nothing.
I think the Beastcall features are realy cool, but I also have never played a beastmaster (not realy my thing), nor have I ever played at a table with a summoner-type player. So I have never experienced a situation where lots of minions slow everything to a crawl.

Quarry Bonus: If the rogue is the flanking striker, can we make ranger the opposite? If a creature has no other creatures (allies?) within 5 feet of it, it triggers your quarry damage as if it were marked by your Quarry feature?

Seeing as Quarry rewards a player for attacking the same target several times, wont this go against that, by rewarding attacks on new, "un-quarry'ed" targets? Though it would of course give you the quarry dmg bonus on the first strike, at which point you can mark them, and you can carry on as usual.

You could maybe just add to the current one, that if you are wielding a ranged weapon, and your quarry moves more than 30 feet away from you, you can attack it once as a reaction.

Alternatively you could make the feature be "if your quarry moves less than 5 feet during its turn (stand still), you can use your reaction to attack it once". Emulating how modern day hunters often wait until their target stands still, so you are more certain of a clean shot.

Can we swap Primal Awareness for ...

I'm having a hard time articulating why this is so much more fun to use during a session than the 1-mile version, but it is.

I can see what you are getting at. The latter version seems more like actively searching and being a ranger, rather than just going Ping like a sonar. But I also think Kane0 is right in saying, that the "what has passed here in the last 24 hours" would be pretty well covered by a good survival roll.

Speaking of: Is it not a bit too strong, that the Ranger also benefits from his own guiding? As you mentioned, Kane0, the Ranger can potentially get double wisdom mod and double prof to a survival check. Potentially a whopping +22 on the roll.
Though guiding a wise rogue could lead to the same thing of course, I would think it less likely for a rogue to have 20 wisdom.

I'm currently doing the lazy thing and adjusting the ranger spells then putting them on the druid list.

Maybe some of the druid spells should be removed from the final list? Just to avoid the ranger getting access to a wider selection of spells than the full casting druid.


Hunter's Terrain Adaptation:
I know, that tying a specific damage type to a whole terrain type will to some degree always be a stretch. But I was looking at the current ones, and the Forest: Acid kind of sticks out to me.
What is it about forests that make you resistant to acid? With that in mind, I thought I'd give my thoughts on them:

Arctic: Cold - pretty straight forward
Desert: Fire - possibly radiant for the scorching sun. but fire is the go to desert resistance in dnd
Coast: Lightning - or thunder, but lightning is more iconic
Forest: Piercing - thorns n' stuff. Or bludgeoning/force - falling branches n' stuff
Grassland: Thunder, lightning or fire - for being caught in the open during storms and also wildfires
Swamp: Poison - The iconic go-to.
Underground: Necrotic - acid might work here, but necrotic is also fine
Urban: Psychic - Makes sense.

Edit: spelling

[Connington]

Trailblazer:
- Climb or Swim speed equal to your movement
- While travelling, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom ability checks and saving throws you or your allies make.
So in practice this could stack with the Help action but won't typically work with Guidance or Resistance due to their casting time/durations.

This is great, but why make players choose between a climb speed and a swim speed? Reasons:

1. Power: Neither is a gamebreaker, even at Level 1. WoTC came this close to giving them both out essentially for free as the Mariner fighting style. A climbing speed is still way less flexible than Spider Climb, and a swimming speed isn't that great without a source of oxygen.
2. Parity: I'd expect most players to pick a climbing speed unless they had a backstory that seemed to "require" a swim speed. Lopsided choices like that are bad.
3. Flexibility: A permanent choice like this at first level carries a "Favored Terrain" risk. If you pick swimming speed and the DM never includes fording a river as a challenge, you feel like you've missed out.

I'd say just give Rangers both. And edit the table entry to also read Trailblazer.

I really like the 2nd benefit. It's super-generic in a way that plays well with all kinds of travel rules, and actually plays into their mechanics instead of skipping over them. Everyone's going to notice when they get +3 to their con saves against the freezing rain, or similar. I would consider keeping the "traveling for more than an hour" clause, just to clarify that it doesn't apply to action scenes.

[Kane0]

Is it not a bit too strong, that the Ranger also benefits from his own guiding? As you mentioned, Kane0, the Ranger can potentially get double wisdom mod and double prof to a survival check. Potentially a whopping +22 on the roll.
Though guiding a wise rogue could lead to the same thing of course, I would think it less likely for a rogue to have 20 wisdom.

Potentially, but you'd need to be in Tier 4 plus have a 20 in your secondary/tertiary stat in order to do so. That's the kind of stage I believe you should be able to make DC 30 checks without much trouble. Also, travelling is a party activity so you're really looking at the lower numbers than the higher ones in many cases, the human fighter with 12 Wis is really going to need every bonus you can provide.

Maybe some of the druid spells should be removed from the final list? Just to avoid the ranger getting access to a wider selection of spells than the full casting druid.

Eh. EK/AT uses the Wizard list and I see no problem with them ignoring the school restrictions. I've argued in thread about that in the past.

Hunter's Terrain Adaptation:
I know, that tying a specific damage type to a whole terrain type will to some degree always be a stretch. But I was looking at the current ones, and the Forest: Acid kind of sticks out to me.

I could swap Swamp and Forest to match the dragons you'd typically encounter there.

This is great, but why make players choose between a climb speed and a swim speed? Reasons:

1. Power: Neither is a gamebreaker, even at Level 1. WoTC came this close to giving them both out essentially for free as the Mariner fighting style. A climbing speed is still way less flexible than Spider Climb, and a swimming speed isn't that great without a source of oxygen.
2. Parity: I'd expect most players to pick a climbing speed unless they had a backstory that seemed to "require" a swim speed. Lopsided choices like that are bad.
3. Flexibility: A permanent choice like this at first level carries a "Favored Terrain" risk. If you pick swimming speed and the DM never includes fording a river as a challenge, you feel like you've missed out.

1: It is indeed not a gamebreaker (races can fly from lvl 1) but this is the secondary feature of the level so I don't want to just hand out things all over the place, and I think Mariner didn't reach print for a couple reasons.
2: I've actually experienced the opposite in some cases, grapples + rope is a great substitute for climbing in many cases where the same couldn't be done for swimming. I'd say both are intended to be equally useful in the grand scheme, but that varies from game to game and table to table.
3: Same risk as picking a race or class or subclass or ASI. RPGs are sort of built on decisionmaking, the kid gloves have to be taken off at some point. Besides it's not a huge deal as you say, and lenient DMs can (not to mention explicitly in the case of AL) allow you to change that if you've made a mistake
4: There are many character concepts that just don't make sense having both. I personally found it pretty jarring that Rey could swim out of that blowhole without difficulty.

[Moxxmix]

Also, I as both a GM and player would prefer if the beastmaster's beastcall conjured an amount of beasts with a combined CR of 2 and greater beastcall with a combined CR of 4 instead of up to 12 beast each with a CR up to 1/2 or 1. Primarily because I hate conjuring large amounts of things because it slows down the game. This lets you conjure one big thing. Secondarily because I will mostly never feel as cheated out of it by my dm. For example, 1 rat will be dissappointing compared to 12 giant crabs. By summoning a combined CR you will get more consistent results across different tables.

I don't think that that's quite as necessary, because the base feature of Beastcall isn't meant for combat. It's summoning beasts, and then having a dozen wolves walk out of the forest all around you, or a swarm of rats spring up on every available surface. Its primary purpose is social and exploration. It's possible for it to lead to combat assistance (eg: a pack of wolves descending on your enemies, seemingly coming out of nowhere, because they owe you a favor, or maybe the pack leader allowing a couple of the hunter wolves to join you in a fight), but such assistance is separate from the direct use of this feature.

Basically, I'd actually go the other direction and get rid of specific numbers. Whether you have 3 wolves or 30 wolves or 3000 rats, that's just a matter of decorating the scene. Any discussions will be with a single entity that speaks for the group (eg: pack leader), and the consequence of a favor is again purely narrative. (EG: How many rats do you need to chew through the ropes tying up the horses in the enemy camp? It doesn't really matter.)

Greater Beastcall, on the other hand, would be where you'd call up to CR[X] of a creature, as that's more amenable to being used as a combat maneuver.

Hunter's Terrain Adaptation:
I know, that tying a specific damage type to a whole terrain type will to some degree always be a stretch. But I was looking at the current ones, and the Forest: Acid kind of sticks out to me.
What is it about forests that make you resistant to acid? With that in mind, I thought I'd give my thoughts on them:

Arctic: Cold - pretty straight forward
Desert: Fire - possibly radiant for the scorching sun. but fire is the go to desert resistance in dnd
Coast: Lightning - or thunder, but lightning is more iconic
Forest: Piercing - thorns n' stuff. Or bludgeoning/force - falling branches n' stuff
Grassland: Thunder, lightning or fire - for being caught in the open during storms and also wildfires
Swamp: Poison - The iconic go-to.
Underground: Necrotic - acid might work here, but necrotic is also fine
Urban: Psychic - Makes sense.

Maybe allow the flexibility explicitly? Give a couple options per environment, and let you pick one? It may be too much complication on the the subclass that is intended to be less complicated, but perhaps something like:

Environment	Resistance Option 1	Resistance Option 2
Arctic	Cold	Force
Coast (Sea)	Lightning	Bludgeoning
Desert	Fire	Radiant
Forest	Piercing	Poison
Grassland	Thunder	Fire
Swamp	Poison	Acid
Underground	Necrotic	Psychic
Urban	Psychic	Slashing

Notes:
Urban - There ought to be a useful resistance for urban, and while it is an appropriate place to put psychic resistance, psychic damage is a bit on the rare side, and may make the urban resistance feel like a waste. Slashing (ie: swords) feels appropriate enough to fit into the urban setting while not giving overall physical resistance.

Likewise piercing fits the forest. I'd avoid bludgeoning, though, as having two physical resistance options sounds like a bad idea.

Is "Coast" an appropriate environment on its own? And "Sea" is missing. Lightning and the crashing waves (bludgeoning) feel like they'd be a good fit if the environment is the sea, which can go all the way up the coast. Coast comes from the PHB. There's also "Undersea", which is definitely a more unusual environment, but isn't too hard to mesh with sea/coast.

Not sure on grasslands. I'd want something relevant to tornados, but that's just bludgeoning, and I'd prefer something magical as the primary. Force, maybe? Eh, Thunder works.

I put Force as the secondary in Arctic, in remembrance of Land of the Lustrous, with Phos being crushed in the ice flows.

Really not sure what to put as the second option for Forest. It should be a magic damage type, but none of them seem to fit. Overall... probably poison. That's not uncommon.


And then there's the question of when environments overlap. What about a city on the coast (eg: Waterdeep)? What about elven tree cities? Are they urban or forest? Dwarven cities carved out of the mountains? Are they underground?

Despite the obvious desire for an urban environment type, it gets rather complicated to see how to rule on what counts as urban. Waterdeep might certainly count for urban, but would a little farming village with a handful of houses? Or is that still just grassland/farmland? It's probably not too hard to come up with a threshold (eg: An urban environment is a permanent settlement where most of the people who reside there do not provide their own living resources, such as food.), but there's still issues of overlap.

I suppose the easiest way to deal with it is just to say that urban overrides any other environment that the city may be built in/around. May also give the ranger motivation to stay in the nearby wilderness, if that wilderness gives him resistances that he'd prefer.

Also, if I were to add extra complications to the rules, I'd probably make it so that after your first long rest you could choose the primary resistance of the environment, and after a second long rest (or more) in the same environment you could choose from either resistance column. That's likely going overboard, though.

[Bjarkmundur]

I could swap Swamp and Forest to match the dragons you'd typically encounter there.

It would actually be a nice bit of consistency to just have the entire feature to be based on the terrain's iconic dragon. I think it's a nice bit of trivia, and makes sure that when the biggest, baddest thing in a region attacks you, you have the appropriate resistance up.

I'm actually kinda in love with the idea, honestly.

.. Like, really in love with the idea.

"Aww man, but the terrain resistances feel weird. I mean, how does that even work?"
"Ah you see, it's designed so the Hunter always has resistance to that terrain's dragon type. The hunter is aware of who's on top of the food chain, and has no intention of becoming the prey"

That's the most metal reasoning behind a class feature I've heard, and I designed a barbarian subclass that can use a hit dice to give a Greataxe the thrown property, so I've seen my fair share of badass class features.