MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[Kish]

I don't think there's anything wrong with original characters, or special characters, or even near-godlike characters or near-perfect characters. It's only a Mary Sue if that character warps the personality of the other characters with their mere presence. Such as, for example, being written with the expectation that a level 17 evil cleric can't make wights attack you, a main villain far more objectively powerful than you will back down from every confrontation with you, and a literally heartless main villain who cares for no one but himself will fall in love with you.

[War-Wren]

I don't think there's anything wrong with original characters, or special characters, or even near-godlike characters or near-perfect characters. It's only a Mary Sue if that character warps the personality of the other characters with their mere presence. Such as, for example, being written with the expectation that a level 17 evil cleric can't make wights attack you, a main villain far more objectively powerful than you will back down from every confrontation with you, and a literally heartless main villain who cares for no one but himself will fall in love with you.

I think that definitively rules out MitD as a Mary-Sue (like there was any doubt...) cos otherwise Redcloak should have allowed him to do exactly as he wanted when he said 'Oh, please!' that time - can't remember the comic, so can't link it, but Redcloak completely dismissed that siren song

[Lombard]

umm... Mary Tsukiko......

[Ruck]

I think that definitively rules out MitD as a Mary-Sue (like there was any doubt...) cos otherwise Redcloak should have allowed him to do exactly as he wanted when he said 'Oh, please!' that time - can't remember the comic, so can't link it, but Redcloak completely dismissed that siren song

Yeah, I think Kish is pretty clearly underlining the ways in which Tsukiko is a parody of the trope.

[DeliaP]

First up: I have read all the opening posts, but still my apologies for raising this if it has already been analysed.

It's just that I've always thought that MitD falling asleep after The Escape was meant as a bigger clue than suggested:

Sleep

MitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).

and I was just rereading the battle for Azure City, and I couldn't help but notice that I first thought this after Page 3 Panel 10. Here, the MitD has also pulled out a sudden power that he doesn't really understand (stomping the earthquake) and immediately after is "really tired all of a sudden".

Now I know this might seem quite thin, but that's two instances where the MitD suddenly shows a much more powerful ability than we normally see, and in both cases specific attention is called to him being suddenly tired or falling asleep afterwards. Which seems like a clue that pulling these stronger abilities out makes him fatigued or exhausted (or perhaps drained of some points pool) and needing to rest afterwards. None of the "Best Fit" monsters suggested seem to have the Stomp/Earthquake and the Escape in terms like these?

Unfortunately I have no suggestions for any creatures that would do this (unless it's psionics?) but wondered if any discussion had taken place on whether the tiredness/sleeping was a clue?

[Leriel]

First up: I have read all the opening posts, but still my apologies for raising this if it has already been analysed.

It's just that I've always thought that MitD falling asleep after The Escape was meant as a bigger clue than suggested:


and I was just rereading the battle for Azure City, and I couldn't help but notice that I first thought this after Page 3 Panel 10. Here, the MitD has also pulled out a sudden power that he doesn't really understand (stomping the earthquake) and immediately after is "really tired all of a sudden".

Now I know this might seem quite thin, but that's two instances where the MitD suddenly shows a much more powerful ability than we normally see, and in both cases specific attention is called to him being suddenly tired or falling asleep afterwards. Which seems like a clue that pulling these stronger abilities out makes him fatigued or exhausted (or perhaps drained of some points pool) and needing to rest afterwards. None of the "Best Fit" monsters suggested seem to have the Stomp/Earthquake and the Escape in terms like these?

Unfortunately I have no suggestions for any creatures that would do this (unless it's psionics?) but wondered if any discussion had taken place on whether the tiredness/sleeping was a clue?

This.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player...ells_%26_Magic

The "Channellers" alternative magic system allows wizards to cast spells exhausting themselves. From the manual:

Imagine wizards who do not forget spells as they are cast, but instead freely use
any spell in their repertoire whenever they wish. Wizards in this system of magic are born
with some special spark or gift that allows them to reach some hidden source or supply of
magical energy and use this to power their enchantments and spells.
While this may seem like a world where the wizards reign unchecked, there’s an
important catch: Reaching for and directing magical energy is a dangerous and taxing
exercise, at least as difficult as heavy labor or prolonged exertion, and each spell a wizard
casts leaves him weakened and vulnerable. In fact, wizards can exhaust their very lives
by casting a spell that’s too much for them to handle or by casting too many smaller
spells in succession.

Just my 2 cents... but it really looks like to what happens to the MitD after casting a spell...

[rweird]

The consensus is generally that while it seems that such a thing is a clue, there are no obvious candidates who fit it, and also can meet the FBS requirements. Generally, we're trying to keep looking for things that fit, but as nothing really has yet, we don't emphasize it much.

[Quebbster]

First up: I have read all the opening posts, but still my apologies for raising this if it has already been analysed.

It's just that I've always thought that MitD falling asleep after The Escape was meant as a bigger clue than suggested:

and I was just rereading the battle for Azure City, and I couldn't help but notice that I first thought this after Page 3 Panel 10. Here, the MitD has also pulled out a sudden power that he doesn't really understand (stomping the earthquake) and immediately after is "really tired all of a sudden".

Now I know this might seem quite thin, but that's two instances where the MitD suddenly shows a much more powerful ability than we normally see, and in both cases specific attention is called to him being suddenly tired or falling asleep afterwards. Which seems like a clue that pulling these stronger abilities out makes him fatigued or exhausted (or perhaps drained of some points pool) and needing to rest afterwards. None of the "Best Fit" monsters suggested seem to have the Stomp/Earthquake and the Escape in terms like these?

Unfortunately I have no suggestions for any creatures that would do this (unless it's psionics?) but wondered if any discussion had taken place on whether the tiredness/sleeping was a clue?

After punching Miko and Windstriker through the wall the MitD also seems to become very hungry, since he eats the letter from the High Priest of Thor what Miko was carrying...

[Shining Wrath]

The "suddenly tired" thing is definitely a clue of some sort, probably indicating that these powers are somehow difficult to MitD; it could be, for example, that MitD can only perform "Escape Power" once per day, or "Earthquake Stomp" 3/day. I'm tempted to say it indicates the powers require mental effort by MitD, because he's absurdly strong and physical effort doesn't seem to fatigue him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

he's absurdly strong and physical effort doesn't seem to fatigue him.

Incorrect. He is tired after the earthquake, and hungry and possibly tired after the Tower scene.

rweird already covered most of the bases: sure, it feels like a clue. But 3.5 doesn't really have either rules for being tired, nor creatures with powers that can only be used X times per period (that is more a 4E thing). Furthermore, Elan, a human bard, has been known to get tired too, even though he definitely has no reason for it (having spent the day sitting on a cart) so maybe it is just an OotS realism thing. Using your powers just takes a lot out of you and when you are low in motivation like MitD is, well, it just doesn't take much to put him back to bed.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Shame that Goku is copyrighted.

[TheNecrocomicon]

A simpler explanation for the "suddenly tired" events may also be that the MitD is just lazy.

Really, it takes until its character development at the hands of O-Chul for it to start taking any sort of real initiative on its own part.

It could also just be making a convenient cover for "bored now, let's do something else".

[RatElemental]

Incorrect. He is tired after the earthquake, and hungry and possibly tired after the Tower scene.

rweird already covered most of the bases: sure, it feels like a clue. But 3.5 doesn't really have either rules for being tired, nor creatures with powers that can only be used X times per period (that is more a 4E thing). Furthermore, Elan, a human bard, has been known to get tired too, even though he definitely has no reason for it (having spent the day sitting on a cart) so maybe it is just an OotS realism thing. Using your powers just takes a lot out of you and when you are low in motivation like MitD is, well, it just doesn't take much to put him back to bed.

Grey Wolf

Elan mentions a pretty good reason, namely, that they pulled an all nighter fighting things. Just being awake long enough tends to make people tired too, not just physical exertion.

Edit: Though, my tired mind just realized maybe that was your point all along. Sort of ironic I think, or maybe it's the sleep deprivation talking again.

[Darth Paul]

I've been pondering this myself. It probably isn't a direct clue, but a dramatic thing: every time Monster-San experiences a new stage of power growth, it exhausts him for a time and he's either tired, hungry, or both.

Being hungry after using the earthquake-stomp, on the other hand, probably is a clue that it's a limited use ability, i.e. it took up energy and now Monster-San needs to replenish, and hunger is a dramatic way of portraying this. I'd suggest, though, that eating the message to Durkon was more for humor; the Giant stated in the book commentary that his confrontation with Miko was mainly to show that MitD was a serious opponent for the Order later on, not necessarily to spotlight any character growth for the Monster himself. Using his strength doesn't seem to drain extra energy. And we've seen that MitD is frequently hungry for no good reason anyway (sometimes he eats to fill the loneliness).

[DeliaP]

I've been pondering this myself. It probably isn't a direct clue, but a dramatic thing: every time Monster-San experiences a new stage of power growth, it exhausts him for a time and he's either tired, hungry, or both.

Being hungry after using the earthquake-stomp, on the other hand, probably is a clue that it's a limited use ability, i.e. it took up energy and now Monster-San needs to replenish, and hunger is a dramatic way of portraying this. I'd suggest, though, that eating the message to Durkon was more for humor; the Giant stated in the book commentary that his confrontation with Miko was mainly to show that MitD was a serious opponent for the Order later on, not necessarily to spotlight any character growth for the Monster himself. Using his strength doesn't seem to drain extra energy. And we've seen that MitD is frequently hungry for no good reason anyway (sometimes he eats to fill the loneliness).

I was specifically asking about the tiredness for that reason: MitD seems to be eating all the time anyway. That may also be a clue, but not one related to the use of supernatural powers (and that also indicates, just in case it were needed, that the tower scene was just strength/melee ability, while the earthquake-stomp was something more supernatural).

[Yendor]

There's one other time he appears to become suddenly sleepy: when it starts raining at the tower.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think we should treat MitD being hungry as a sign that he has exerted himself because it seems to be a running theme; he's always hungry. If MitD mentioned being not being hungry, that'd send me back to recent strips to find out why.

[Doug Lampert]

Incorrect. He is tired after the earthquake, and hungry and possibly tired after the Tower scene.

rweird already covered most of the bases: sure, it feels like a clue. But 3.5 doesn't really have either rules for being tired, nor creatures with powers that can only be used X times per period (that is more a 4E thing). Furthermore, Elan, a human bard, has been known to get tired too, even though he definitely has no reason for it (having spent the day sitting on a cart) so maybe it is just an OotS realism thing. Using your powers just takes a lot out of you and when you are low in motivation like MitD is, well, it just doesn't take much to put him back to bed.

Grey Wolf

Seriously? Have you LOOKED at the monster "spell-like abilities" on a substantial fraction of the MM.

1/day, 7/day, 3/day, 1/month, ext...
That sort of thing is all through the books.
Then there are all the spellcasters who also have powers that can only be used limited times per time period.

[DeliaP]

There's one other time he appears to become suddenly sleepy: when it starts raining at the tower.

OK, I'm not going to try and argue that this is MitD unconsciously casting Control Weather, to help Mr Stiffly get to sleep....

[Darth Paul]

OK, I'm not going to try and argue that this is MitD unconsciously casting Control Weather, to help Mr Stiffly get to sleep....

I don't see why not. We've even seen it argued that he is able to unconsciously cast it at a distance to make it rain for O-Chul in this comic.

And he wasn't sleepy this time, meaning (by my theory) that he's now mastered this ability and using it doesn't tire him.

Just to be clear, I think you're on the right track. I just think that the indications/clues are different based on the power used. Melee attacks are basic, so MitD isn't drained by their use. The Earthquake/Stomp is an extraordinary physical ability, so he's hungry afterwards- immediately, and more than usual. Control Weather and whatever power caused the ESCAPE were both mental/spell abilities, and exhausted him so he needed sleep. That suggests sleep to recover spells or spell-like abilities, even though he doesn't know he needs to.

By the next time he Controls Weather in 709, he's leveled up and isn't using his full power, so he doesn't need to rest afterward.

Does any of this seem coherent? Could MitD's periods of sleep or extreme hunger indicate that he just passed a level threshold and needs to level up and assimilate new powers?

[Qwertystop]

I don't see why not. We've even seen it argued that he is able to unconsciously cast it at a distance to make it rain for O-Chul in this comic.

And he wasn't sleepy this time, meaning (by my theory) that he's now mastered this ability and using it doesn't tire him.

Just to be clear, I think you're on the right track. I just think that the indications/clues are different based on the power used. Melee attacks are basic, so MitD isn't drained by their use. The Earthquake/Stomp is an extraordinary physical ability, so he's hungry afterwards- immediately, and more than usual. Control Weather and whatever power caused the ESCAPE were both mental/spell abilities, and exhausted him so he needed sleep. That suggests sleep to recover spells or spell-like abilities, even though he doesn't know he needs to.

By the next time he Controls Weather in 709, he's leveled up and isn't using his full power, so he doesn't need to rest afterward.

Does any of this seem coherent? Could MitD's periods of sleep or extreme hunger indicate that he just passed a level threshold and needs to level up and assimilate new powers?

It's certainly plausible - the problem is that we already can't find much (anything?) that has all the required abilities, so restricting it further to things that have those abilities but not with unlimited uses doesn't actually help. It would be more useful if we had two dozen different things with earthquakes and weather control and only two or three of them also had a mechanical reason too be tired after doing it.

[Darth Paul]

I don't know about anyone else, but our groups traditionally require a period of rest before a character can level up after gaining XP. You can level up mid-adventure, but not mid-encounter. I'm suggesting this might be the dramatic reason for MitD to need food or rest after gaining a new power. It's not a mechanic to be found in game, it's a house rule; but if it's common to a majority of D&D campaigns, these instances could be understood as pauses while MitD levels up.

Are there not creatures on the list that can choose spells and aren't restricted to a list?

[Shining Wrath]

Per some DMs, player characters don't level up until they get out of the dungeon and rest and reflect.

[Quebbster]

Per some DMs, player characters don't level up until they get out of the dungeon and rest and reflect.

Rest definitely seems to help at least.

[Kastor]

I wouldnt be surprised if this has been asked before, and i apologize if it has, but are there any known items that allow control over another creature at will? Even if its not a specific item, but rather a theoretical one within the rules of 3.5. Seeing as Xykon implies he spends a lot of time creating magic items, there's a chance there could be such an item on MitD.

So... could that exist?

[Qwertystop]

I wouldnt be surprised if this has been asked before, and i apologize if it has, but are there any known items that allow control over another creature at will? Even if its not a specific item, but rather a theoretical one within the rules of 3.5. Seeing as Xykon implies he spends a lot of time creating magic items, there's a chance there could be such an item on MitD.

So... could that exist?

D&D 3.5 items mostly mimic spells, so that wouldn't get anyone anywhere. I don't know of any items that don't mimic spells with that particular effect.

[Kastor]

D&D 3.5 items mostly mimic spells, so that wouldn't get anyone anywhere. I don't know of any items that don't mimic spells with that particular effect.

Spells like Dominate Monster or Geas? I was trying to keep it vague because there are likely other spells which achieve similar effects that I dont know about.

[Jasdoif]

I wouldnt be surprised if this has been asked before, and i apologize if it has, but are there any known items that allow control over another creature at will? Even if its not a specific item, but rather a theoretical one within the rules of 3.5. Seeing as Xykon implies he spends a lot of time creating magic items, there's a chance there could be such an item on MitD.

So... could that exist?

"A theoretical one within the rules of 3.5" encompasses "anything the DM sees fit to include", so it could exist. I think the better question is, what would accounting for the possibility of arbitrary items actually accomplish?

[Qwertystop]

Items mimicking spells don't get us anything, since as far as I'm aware all the relevant spells have come up on this thread. Yes, Dominate and Geas are the big ones there.

Items not mimicking spells can have entirely arbitrary effects, so if not restricted to published ones, we get no useful information. If we do restrict to published items - as I said, I don't know of any, though there might be some somewhere and if you find one you're free to point it out.

[Kish]

If Xykon can craft an item to mind control the creature in the darkness, he can cast a spell to mind control the creature in the darkness. This seems like an intended solution to the problem "we have Word of the Author that Suggestion isn't on Xykon's spell list" (to avoid unclarity, we don't), not to "most of the most likely candidates for what the creature could be are immune to mind-affecting effects."