The Gaang, Inuyasha's group, and Space Marine Squad Free-For-All

[Illiterate Scribe]

I think you might be on to something there...
Honestly I can't even think how you could have a Mary Sue in WH40K. I mean, isn't one of the defining traits of Mary-Suedom being disgustingly good, or at least being passed off as disgustingly good? Yeah, there's words for people like that in the Grim Darkness of the Future, and those words are "cannon fodder."

Exactly - as I've said before, a setting where the designers actively hunt down the most likeable factions and make them really really evil (oh, you liked the Eldar? They consider a handful of their lives to be worth a few dozen billion of yours. Or, perhaps, the Tau appeared to be all bright and idealistic? Uh, yeah, they only follow the greater good because of Ethereal mind control, and make liberal use of concentration camps).

No. THe prayers are because they've forgotten how technology works and gotten all ritualistic.

Again, one word:

Orks.

Was just an idle musing, but I can't resist devil's advocate here: So? Prayer is prayer, holy is holy, blessings are blessings. Unless you have some sort of sliding scale of holiness. "Newly-rediscovered and improved bolt round, guaranteed fourteen hours shriving in the Cathedra Munitionapolis on Triplex Phall! Kills vampires, but leaves daemons standing!"

I thought Triplex Phall only made super-zippy lasguns.

Mary Sue as in boringly perfect, not as in nice people. I mean, come on. They're psychic super super soldiers that make regular Space Marines look like wimps, they can fire fricking storm bolters one-handed with a force weapon in the other, they have psychic shrouding, weapons that ignore invulnerable saves (you know, those things which were supposed to be invulnerable, before warscythes and Daemonhunters) and they have Elites.

Personality-wise, of course, they're certainly not any nicer than anyone else GRIMDARK.

I don't know about you, but I don't find 'horrifically amoral types wielding ancient, powerful, decaying weaponry' Mary Sue at all. 'Boringly perfect'? More like utterly terrifying and horrible.

[warty goblin]

Was just an idle musing, but I can't resist devil's advocate here: So? Prayer is prayer, holy is holy, blessings are blessings. Unless you have some sort of sliding scale of holiness. "Newly-rediscovered and improved bolt round, guaranteed fourteen hours shriving in the Cathedra Munitionapolis on Triplex Phall! Kills vampires, but leaves daemons standing!"

Mary Sue as in boringly perfect, not as in nice people. I mean, come on. They're psychic super super soldiers that make regular Space Marines look like wimps, they can fire fricking storm bolters one-handed with a force weapon in the other, they have psychic shrouding, weapons that ignore invulnerable saves (you know, those things which were supposed to be invulnerable, before warscythes and Daemonhunters) and they have Elites.

Personality-wise, of course, they're certainly not any nicer than anyone else GRIMDARK.

You might have a point with the sacred holy ammunition thingy.

"Oh God-Emperor, we who are your Chosen thank you for the gift of high explosive mass reactive ammunition we are about to recieve, and for the deaths of the heretic mutent zeno scum which we shall bring about in Your Glorious Name using Thy Most Glorious Bolter Rounds. Amen. CLEANSE PURGE KILL!!!!"
Seriously, if that doesn't make something holy, I'm not sure what would.

On the Mary Sue thing, that seems to be a complaint about their power level, which is rather extreme, but remember, to be a Mary Sue, you not only have to be more powerful than everyone else, but also moraly superior and teach everyone the error of their ways. Which I suppose using IoM style morality, the Grey Knights do. I mean they show others the right path of zeno killing, heretic purging and demon-impaling, and if you don't follow they beat you to death with your lungs, thus showing other sinners the importance of worshiping the God-Emperor properly. So within the context of the story they are indeed Mary Sues and you are right after all. Fascinating.

[LBO]

I thought Triplex Phall only made super-zippy lasguns.

Sod it, it was just the first non-Mars forgeworld I could remember off the top of my head. >_> What would you prefer? Ryza? Gryphonne IV?

I don't know about you, but I don't find 'horrifically amoral types wielding ancient, powerful, decaying weaponry' Mary Sue at all.

I use "Mary Sue" in a fairly loose way, to mean "boringly perfect/unstoppable" rather than "morally superior" - for instance, the CORE and ARM are Mary Sue enemies for anyone who isn't a galaxy-looting Von Neumann swarm, the Sun Crusher is a Mary Sue warship. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Seriously, if that doesn't make something holy, I'm not sure what would.

But then... on the other hand, you take the Sword of a Thousand Righteous Exterminatuses, hand-forged by the finest Techpriests of Mars while a billion onlookers chant out canticles of loathing, quenched in the tears and virgin blood of ten Living Saints, covered in imagery of the aquila and the Omnissiah, inlaid with a thousand devotional prayers carved in the bones of past Ecclesiarchs, has angel wings, squirts blessed prometheum and sings hymns to the Emperor. Now that's a holy weapon, and does strike me as a touch holier than a field-blessed bolt round.

Which I suppose using IoM style morality, the Grey Knights do. I mean they show others the right path of zeno killing, heretic purging and demon-impaling, and if you don't follow they beat you to death with your lungs, thus showing other sinners the importance of worshiping the God-Emperor properly. So within the context of the story they are indeed Mary Sues and you are right after all. Fascinating.

But... yeah, I hadn't thought of that. In a world where psychotic Knights Templar who spend fifty per cent of their lives in holy contemplation and the other fifty shoving giant spears into daemons are the ideal everyone strives for, Grey Knights are Mary Sues in every sense.

[Emperor Tippy]

I think you are seriously underestimating the Avatar crowd. If they were willing to kill and use their abilities correctly, they could easily win.

Toph just Metal Bends their armor to crush them. Or their guns. Or opens the ground up under them and closes it again, then proceeds to crush them.

Aang just bends up a tornado and lifts all the Smurfs into the air, where he proceeds to fling them several thousand feet up.

Katara blood bends the lot of them, making them shoot each other. Or just bursts their brains. Or hearts.

Not sure what Zuko can do (I haven't seen the second half of the third season so he might have learned how to create lighting, in which case he may be relevant).

Aang could also go with blades of air, super thin and sped up to extremely fast speeds to slice up the Smurfs. Katara could do the same thing with water.

Toph could make the ground the Smurfs are on all the sudden shoot up several hundred feet.

[Oslecamo]

There is a case of WH40K blessings really working.

Terminator armor. It is that hard because each suit contains a myrcroscopic fragment from the Emperor's own armor, granting it a powerfull protective aura that, togheter with the improved allowy and ceramics, allows it to sustain absurd amounts of damage.

[Illiterate Scribe]

There is a case of WH40K blessings really working.

Terminator armor. It is that hard because each suit contains a myrcroscopic fragment from the Emperor's own armor, granting it a powerfull protective aura that, togheter with the improved allowy and ceramics, allows it to sustain absurd amounts of damage.

Exactly.

There's also the example that I brought up earlier - Orks have weapons that work because they believe they do.

[Kato]

I don't know any about the space marines, but... Miroku's curse is some hard stuff to counter. If they won't grapple him in an instant, they are done for. (his death does not end the curse, as far as I know... it makes it worse, being uncontrolled then) So also the Gaang will have to think of something good, before being sucked in. Also Inu Yasha has strength beyond any human's even if Tessaiga is useless against humans. Sango's also an above average fighter.

The Gaang has little chance against the dog's team, I think... not sure about the marines... but I think if they use metal weapons Toph's got a stroke and Aang will also do his part... If Katara's able to blood bend them, it's even easier (this also might be a chance against Miroku) Sokka will... cheer them or something ^^'

[Rutee]

Exactly.

There's also the example that I brought up earlier - Orks have weapons that work because they believe they do.

There are Smurf Orks? What Orks can do isn't relevant to what Smurfs can do.

[warty goblin]

I think you are seriously underestimating the Avatar crowd. If they were willing to kill and use their abilities correctly, they could easily win.

Toph just Metal Bends their armor to crush them. Or their guns. Or opens the ground up under them and closes it again, then proceeds to crush them.
.

I'm pretty sure Space Marine armor is made out of some sort of high tech ceremic, since it's called 'bonded ceremite' IIRC. I'm not sure about their guns though.

But then... on the other hand, you take the Sword of a Thousand Righteous Exterminatuses, hand-forged by the finest Techpriests of Mars while a billion onlookers chant out canticles of loathing, quenched in the tears and virgin blood of ten Living Saints, covered in imagery of the aquila and the Omnissiah, inlaid with a thousand devotional prayers carved in the bones of past Ecclesiarchs, has angel wings, squirts blessed prometheum and sings hymns to the Emperor. Now that's a holy weapon, and does strike me as a touch holier than a field-blessed bolt round.

You forget how the ore is made from the iron extracted from the bones of a thousand Space Marines who have fallen in Glorious combat against the foul Zeno. That's the wonderful thing about WH40K, you can always be more over-the-top grimdark...

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm pretty sure Space Marine armor is made out of some sort of high tech ceremic, since it's called 'bonded ceremite' IIRC. I'm not sure about their guns though.

So? There are a dozen other ways for bending to take out the Smurfs without any real effort.

[warty goblin]

So? There are a dozen other ways for bending to take out the Smurfs without any real effort.

I'm not denying that, since I really don't know enough about Avatar in order to speculate one way or the other. I was merely pointing out a minor error in your statement, since an ability that works only on metals (implied by being called 'metal bending') wouldn't on something not metal, like bonded ceremite.

[LBO]

You forget how the ore is made from the iron extracted from the bones of a thousand Space Marines who have fallen in Glorious combat against the foul Zeno. That's the wonderful thing about WH40K, you can always be more over-the-top grimdark...

It's Xeno, but yes, that's why I love it so much. Anyway, what do you think would be more threatening to warpspawned abominations?

I'm pretty sure Space Marine armor is made out of some sort of high tech ceremic, since it's called 'bonded ceremite' IIRC. I'm not sure about their guns though.

Surely earthbending would work better on ceramics, though...?

If they were willing to kill and use their abilities correctly, they could easily win.

So, no.

There is one thing that's being completely missed by the Avatar fanboys, and that's time-delays in moves. Avatar moves, while certainly not subject to the stupidhuge charge times of DBZ et al, do require a certain amount of limb-twirling and we-really-know-our-Eastern-martial-arts-seriously-watch-this stuff from the user. The moment the Marines consider them a threat (and if you're going to have the relatively innocent, friendly kids of Avatar going for maximum-force annihilation straight away, you better believe the Astartes are up for it), blam, hail of perfectly-aimed rocket grenades in the face. Marines are fast, and nothing's convinced me Avatar defensive bending will hold up to 40k firepower. The fight proposed would be over in seconds, and the best the Gaang could hope for, if they spent their last seconds unleashing some extreme bendingness, is mutual destruction.

[Rutee]

Ah yes, the old "Stylistic Choice equates to effectiveness" argument. Because that doesn't get old ever.

[Oslecamo]

There are Smurf Orks? What Orks can do isn't relevant to what Smurfs can do.

That joke alone made my day. Just imagine the possibilities...


WAAGHHH! THEM IN THE NAME OF THE EMPEROR!!!!-ork space marine war cry


NOBODY IS TOUGHER THAN A ORK MARINE, AND NO ORK MARINE IS TOUGHER THAN ME!-ork chaplain.


Da emperor ones go faster.-ork smart marine



For those who seek perfection there is no rest but WAGHHHHHHH!-ork librarian


Anyway, orks were engineered to be the ultimate soldiers. The problem is that their creators didn't get to finish the job before they were wiped out of the universe. So the result is the orks, who not only reproduce like rabbits, but have mysterious psychic warp independant powers wich indeed allows them to literally bend reality to their will and make a piece of scrap work as a weapon, as long as the ork has enough will power for it.

Luckily the orks didn't seem to have realized this yet. Or it's just that they don't care.

[turkishproverb]

Was just an idle musing, but I can't resist devil's advocate here: So? Prayer is prayer, holy is holy, blessings are blessings. Unless you have some sort of sliding scale of holiness. "Newly-rediscovered and improved bolt round, guaranteed fourteen hours shriving in the Cathedra Munitionapolis on Triplex Phall! Kills vampires, but leaves daemons standing!"

Arguable. It's like worshipping a Dead god in most Fantasy settings. Does nothing for you.

And the emperor IS Dead.

[Sucrose]

I think you are seriously underestimating the Avatar crowd. If they were willing to kill and use their abilities correctly, they could easily win.

Toph just Metal Bends their armor to crush them. Or their guns. Or opens the ground up under them and closes it again, then proceeds to crush them.

Aang just bends up a tornado and lifts all the Smurfs into the air, where he proceeds to fling them several thousand feet up.

Katara blood bends the lot of them, making them shoot each other. Or just bursts their brains. Or hearts.

Not sure what Zuko can do (I haven't seen the second half of the third season so he might have learned how to create lighting, in which case he may be relevant).

Aang could also go with blades of air, super thin and sped up to extremely fast speeds to slice up the Smurfs. Katara could do the same thing with water.

Toph could make the ground the Smurfs are on all the sudden shoot up several hundred feet.

With all due respect... where the hell are you getting this?

First off, bloodbending only happens on a full moon. We have no indication that it's a full moon, so no bloodbending.

We have no indication that Aang and Katara are even capable of creating the super-fine blades that you mention. Just because something is theoretically possible with absolute control of the element doesn't mean that they have aforementioned absolute control.

Toph needs to touch metal to metalbend it; it's how she sees the tiny earth fragments that she needs to be able to do it at all. She touches a marine's armor, she'll very quickly be missing a hand.

The earth rift thing is more reasonable, but I don't recall her ever using that trick in-show, so like your super-fine blades, pics or it didn't happen. Even if she did do it, who's to say that the SMurfs couldn't get out of the way?

Seriously, I'm a dirty heretic who's never read a 40K novel, and even I think what you're arguing is ridiculous.

P.S. If you change someone's moral makeup in your argument, you're no longer arguing that that given person could win, merely that someone with less scruples and the same abilities could do so.

P.P.S. The Aang tornado strategy has in-show support, but he has to run in a circle for a while to pull it off, and that's enough time for a few grenades to blow him sky-high. Also, blunt force trauma seems pretty ineffective against SMurfs.

P.^3S. Also, gonna need some support for the last Toph strategy you mentioned. I don't recall any indication that she could ever do that.

[Poison_Fish]

That joke alone made my day. Just imagine the possibilities...


WAAGHHH! THEM IN THE NAME OF THE EMPEROR!!!!-ork space marine war cry


NOBODY IS TOUGHER THAN A ORK MARINE, AND NO ORK MARINE IS TOUGHER THAN ME!-ork chaplain.


Da emperor ones go faster.-ork smart marine



For those who seek perfection there is no rest but WAGHHHHHHH!-ork librarian

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[Talkkno]

And the emperor IS Dead.

Then explain how does inquisitor Draco manage to communicate him in the novel Draco, or how he empowers saints and keeps watch over people such as CIAPHAS CAIN HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

[Mr. Scaly]

Wait, I may have missed the point but...humanity doesn't even know how its own machines work anymore?!

[Rutee]

Then explain how does inquisitor Draco manage to communicate him in the novel Draco, or how he empowers saints and keeps watch over people such as CIAPHAS CAIN HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

Insanity? We're talking about WH40k after all.

[Talkkno]

Insanity? We're talking about WH40k after all.

I'm not sure that somehow becoming insane suddenly grants you supernatural abilities without being tainted by Chaos, such as the Sepherium(?) of the Sisters of Battle. And the Tarot works threw his own divinations.

[Talkkno]

Wait, I may have missed the point but...humanity doesn't even know how its own machines work anymore?!

The whole "machine spirits" thing is just a way to for the higher ups to keep the grunts ignorant of how it really works while ensuring they can still make and repair things.

[Rutee]

I'm not sure that somehow becoming insane suddenly grants you supernatural abilities without being tainted by Chaos, such as the Sepherium(?) of the Sisters of Battle. And the Tarot works threw his own divinations.

Since you didn't pick it up, "He imagined talking to the Emperor"

We're talking about a universe where the God of Hope is Evil. How can we really be sure he spoke to the Emperor? Especially if the novels are propaganda (I don't think I get /how/, but)

[Ubiq]

The whole "machine spirits" thing is just a way to for the higher ups to keep the grunts ignorant of how it really works while ensuring they can still make and repair things.

I thought machine spirits was, at least to an extent, how the Imperium tap-danced around the issue of AI without actually admitting the existence of said computer systems. Or am I thinking of something else entirely?

[Illiterate Scribe]

There are Smurf Orks? What Orks can do isn't relevant to what Smurfs can do.

So think why it works. In a coherent system, a thing that effects X will also effect why. Orks are psychic, therefore their guns work. Tech priests address warp entities known as machine spirits, so ...

[tyckspoon]

So think why it works. In a coherent system, a thing that effects X will also effect why. Orks are psychic, therefore their guns work. Tech priests address warp entities known as machine spirits, so ...

Ok.. it works for the Orks because Orks are naturally (very) low-level psychic creatures that link to each other in a gestalt. When that focuses through any particular Ork, you get weapons that work with missing bits and vehicles that do indeed go faster when painted red.

Now, it works for human techpriests because.. human techpriests are not psychics, they aren't linked in to all the other techpriests they're working with, and when they build a gun with an important piece missing the gun fails to work? Hey, it doesn't work for humans because they're not Orks. Fancy that.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Ok.. it works for the Orks because Orks are naturally (very) low-level psychic creatures that link to each other in a gestalt. When that focuses through any particular Ork, you get weapons that work with missing bits and vehicles that do indeed go faster when painted red.

Now, it works for human techpriests because.. human techpriests are not psychics, they aren't linked in to all the other techpriests they're working with, and when they build a gun with an important piece missing the gun fails to work? Hey, it doesn't work for humans because they're not Orks. Fancy that.

All humans are psychic (except nulls). Says so repeatedly.

[Oslecamo]

All humans are psychic (except nulls). Says so repeatedly.

Humans are warp psychics, geting their powers from that demon infested dimension. Orks are a completely diferent kind of psychics, they get their powers from themselves.

They got to be engineered by one of the strongest forces of the universe. Hummies are just another evolution abomination.

[Verruckt]

Equip one SMurf with a sniper rifle, or a scoped bolter for that matter, which i think some of the SMurf 'nid hunter models come standard with. It's a featureless plain, so the marines by definition will have a clear shot as soon as the opposing parties clear the horizon. As for the 50 feet issue, you underestimate a marines ability to jump to conclusions.

Inuyasha's Group:

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"Sergeant Octavian, unknown targets approaching at 5000 metres"

"Are they Emperor Fearing Humans private Julios?"

"By the manner of dress they appear to be ferals, wait, one of them has cat ears, and another appears to be a squat with a fox tail, possibly mutants or unknown xenotype"

"Well, can't let that continue living now can we, the rest are guilty by proximity. CLEANSE PURGE KILL!"

"Sir, whats a squat?"

*BANG*

"Would anyone else like to acknowledge the existence of squats?"

The Gaang:

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"Sergeant Octavian, Auspex reads another group of humans approaching a few thousand meters off."

"One moment Julios, I'm still dousing this corpse in thrice blessed promethium of corpse burning."

"Sir one of them seems to be opening his mouth and expressing what the auspex reads as heretical emotion 31A: "happiness", what do you reccomend?"

"Oh dear, Tau sympathizers, get Helios to shoot them."

"Sir you shot him for heresy not five minutes ago."

"Oh, so I did, well, give me his rifle I'll handle it, and grab that giant boomerang would you I'd like to keep it as a trophy"

"Sir, what's a boomerang?"

*BANG*

"Anyone else?"

of course, this allows for zealotry related casualties, but this is to expected with SMurfs.

Edit: Just to confirm this would work, Inuyasha's homies are first dumbfounded by shippo suddenly turning into a red puff of fox demon flesh, the concerned when Inuyasha's arm comes of, and then his other arm, and then the rest of him. Now they are worried, but can't do anything really to prevent themselves being reduced to gibs as they don't understand the nature of their attackers.

As far as I know, and I have seen a fair bit of Avatar, aside from Avatar state Deus Ex Machina, none of the Gaang are any more resilient than your average person, so they are bisected and pulped just as easily as a normal human child. Sure they could defend with various bending techniques if they saw the attacks coming, but at that range they would not.

[Oslecamo]

Clearly you didn't see the first episodes of Innuyasha, where he fights a demon who uses razor sharp hairs to tear apart trees and rocks, and Innuyasha doesn't even seem to notice this attacks. Then Innuyasha eventually gets tied up by the airs, and the demon proceeds to stab him repeatedly with a katana, and Innuyasha simply refuses to stop moving. I doubt a sniper rifle will do him much harm.

Not to mention he has an excellent sense of scent wich allows him to track enemies several miles away.

Also you may be confusing the SM with Imperial guard comissars. Those are the ones who shoot anyone on their ranks who show the minimum sign of doubt. SM have been trained from little childs to be fanatical doubtless warriors. If one of them does something "heretic", it's because it has been corrupted by chaos, and the he'll probably just shoot his comander first and ask questions later.