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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    frown Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    First thread I've ever done, so I'll try to make it good.

    I am currently playing in a campaign called The Drow War, created by Mongoose Publishing. The Campaign is released in three books, each book encompassing ten levels. So one of these books is epic 21-30. When I first saw this, I was terribly excited. I have been playing Third Edition since it came out and I have never ever played in, or DMed an epic level game. When I knew I would eventually go epic, there was only one class choice I knew I had to do: Wizard. The very idea of creating my very own epic spells had me shivering for joy. I couldn't wait.

    Six months later, we finally arrive at the fabled and very anticipated "Third Book."

    And just for clarity, my 20th level build was: Wizard6/Recaster5/Incantrix 9. (I am aware Recaster is a changling class, my DM ok'd it for my human character) I am a Meta-magic spell spewing God among men. The Drow didn't stand a chance. ;)

    So we begin the Third Book, and I have been frustrated and unhappy since it began.

    First I discover that most epic spells have spellcraft DC's so atrociously high that even with my skill focused and synergy'd spellcraft of 36, I would never achieve such cool spells as Hellball (and a few others whose name escapes me). At best, even with epic skill focus, my spellcraft will only achieve a 48 + whatever my final Int bonus will be. Did you see that? A spellcraft of possibly high 50's? I can scarcely conceive of such a thing, and yet it is still too low. How utterly disappointing.

    Let's talk about my real beef: Epic Monsters.

    Ever since this epic game has started, I have been consistently and frustratingly useless. Every monster we face has a SR so high that I can almost never succeed against it. Last night I fought Paragon Gargoyles. Their SR was higher than what I could achieve on a natural 20. They were essentially immune to me. How about touch attacks with no SR you say? Wonderful! I'll try that. *rolls a 19 plus touch attack!* Misses touch AC. What? So I have to roll a natural 20 there too? *cries*

    Then there's the times, those miraculous interventions of God, when I do penetrate spell resistance. Oh finally! It will work! But wait, wait! All of this monster's saves are higher than 30! .... But.. but... my 10th level slots (yes I have them) have DC's of 28..! Why, he can only fail on a natural 1! *throws a fit*

    How about my stats? I have an AC 36 regularly, and saves of Fort+17, Ref+15, and Will+22. Are you seeing those? That is ridiculous. I have never seen a wizard with saves so high. And yet I have them. And yet...

    Every monster has an attack rating of 40-60+. So my high wizard AC means absolutely balls. How about that monsters spell-like abilities? Is that a DC 40? What what? But! But I can hardly make that! And they're ALL like that??

    So bottom line is, I'm a meta-magic battle mage who can't succeed on spells, and my resistances are so abysmal that even a CR 19 Paragon Gargoyle can hit on anything but a 1. And even with a spellcraft so stupid it feels weird even rolling the d20, I will never achieve any really cool epic spells that I wanted.

    Did I do something wrong? Am I built wrong? Is this a legitimate problem for other epic level wizards? Or is this campaign really playing too strong? I feel like a 5th level wizard trying to affect a Balor. It just isn't happening.

    For those of you who actually read my ridiculously long tirade, please tell me what the deal is. Comments, questions, ideas. Anything. It would really be appreciated.

    And again, sorry for the length. I needed to get all that out.
    Thanks.
    Last edited by CrowSpawn; 2008-02-06 at 12:45 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Frosty's Avatar

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Perhaps you should realize that you have a party to back you up. Those things with uber SR might be better-handled by the shock-trooper frenzied berserker who is optimized to hit high AC enemies.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Alright, a few quick hints:
    First, Spellcraft DCs: try to find ways to lower DCs either by adding XP cost, getting help, etc.
    Second, buy (or craft) custom magic items to boost your spellcraft... alot.
    Spell resistance: prepare the spell Assay Resistance from the Spell Compendium. It is your friend, your good friend.
    Touch attacks: Time to boost your Dex, it would appear. Also, Quickened True Strike. Alternative: have a friend, Summoned Monster, Bigby's Hand, or Tentacles grapple 'em to knock down their touch AC. Also, if they don't know where you are (Improved Invisibility), they lose their Dex to AC. That might help.
    Save DCs: Well, if your ninth level spells have a 28 DC, have you Wish-boosted/tomed/Magic Itemed your Int up as far as possible?
    15 base +5 levels +6 Headband +4 Wishboost/tome=30, which should be a DC 29 ninth level spell...
    Also, negative energy makes it harder for foes to make saving throws... Enervation and the like, once you get past SR and touch AC dish out hefty penalties on saves after awhile... and the only save that they allow is against it being permanent.

    My little hints, some of which derive from my one Epic-level campaign, more of which derive from my brother's complaints about an Epic Psion.
    "Chess, like love, like music, has the power to make men happy." --Siegbert Tarrasch

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Well your spellcraft can be boosted by an item, items usually give crazy boosts to skills so that should fix your problem.

    On the other points, I think you might have done something wrong with your equipment, it could help to post your build here.

    The first thing you should forget is relying on AC, it'll never be good, it's better to go for miss-chance and DR.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix_of_Doom View Post
    Well your spellcraft can be boosted by an item, items usually give crazy boosts to skills so that should fix your problem.

    On the other points, I think you might have done something wrong with your equipment, it could help to post your build here.

    The first thing you should forget is relying on AC, it'll never be good, it's better to go for miss-chance and DR.
    +1

    Items - pick up a Shard (universal psionic item, so anyone can use it) of Spellcraft +10. Single use, but only costs 1,000 gp. Or, buy a permanent Crystal Mask of Spellcraft for 10,000. Or, team up with friends.

    AC is a funny thing; at high levels, there's a relatively narrow range where if you're below that it doesn't matter, and if you're above that you're invincible. Generally speaking, AC helps everyone at low levels, but after lvl10/15 you have to decide if you want to go for broke (in which case you need to aim for the 50's or so by lvl20), or exit the arms race before you burn too much gold and item slots into it. Here's a hint: Wizards and other people without heavy armor are usually going to lag substantially in the AC arms race. Miss chance especially is just as useful at lvl5 as it is as lvl25.

    Other than that, try playing Batman. Fighting directly isn't working, so fight indirectly. Use spells like Forcewall to control the battlefield, Polymorph the fighter, cast Invisibility on the healbot, Disintegrate the floor under the enemy, summon in Elder Elementals, etc. Win by manipulating events so your TEAM wins, not by showing off your mighty magic skills.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    (sorry, double post)
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2008-02-06 at 01:11 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Caster level is also one of the easiest things to boost in DnD.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Just looking at the epic spells in the SRD, there's spells with Spellcraft DCs over three hundred. Even without ever having played Epic, I can tell that that means they balanced them around the assumption that the caster has an utterly ridiculous collection of Spellcraft-boosting items or spell effects or whatnot.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Epic Spells: Lower the DC by burning XP/taking damage/adding minions/whatever.

    Epic SR: Yup. Sucks.

    Epic Touch AC: Also sucks. Boost your hit chances with Quickened True Strikes or other +AB spells. And boost your DEX as high as it can go.

    Epic Saves: Ironically.. Blasting is better than save-or-lose in Epic. Because saves consistently get higher with each epic hit die. You will lose if you continue focusing on save-or-die in Epic.

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Try building custom magic items. A +20 1/day use-activated item boosting spellcraft checks should be pretty cheap, and you shouldn't have to roll more than 1 spellcraft check a day when trying to get those epic spells.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    For Epic casting rethink what you're using it for, It's real game-breakingly overpoweredness is when you work up stuff with stacked reductions in spellcraft DC outside of combat and either make permenant changes to yourself/environment or even better instantaneous ones.

    Check out the candlekeep conpendium online, the one with Shaaan the serpent queen for a suitably cheesey use, she built a permenant spellward for herself that relects all targetted spells of 9th level and below, it can't be dispelled by less than epic magic and it never runs out of turning. She effectively made herself immune to direct castings, and picked up a reputation for being unbelievably hard in mage duels. If that doesn't appeal try specing up a "Create Minion" spell that turns a cabbage into an uber-monster totally loyal to you, make it's effects permenant and then spam that for a few days. Spells like the hellball and epic time duplicate are frankly rubbish compared to what metamagic can give you so don't try to use them in a fight. but the backlash and +10 minutes to casting and even the xp costs are all fine on long duration buffs that you can set or contingent effects to keep you safe.

    If SR is troubling you write up an epic spell that degrades SR of all hostile critters within a set distance of you, over a period of X rounds they accrue minusses to SR until it's eaten, that shouldn't even be that high a power.

    Make sure you read through the LNG to batman builds, it's all appropriate only more so, go for the cripple shot not the hp kill.
    Last edited by mostlyharmful; 2008-02-06 at 02:54 PM.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Your an Incantatrix and your Spellcraft check only hits 60 in epic? My god. I have an incantatrix that hits 60 at level 18. And thats before I use Moment of Prescience to get +20 on the check.

    ---
    But anyways. There are 2 basic approaches to epic casting

    First up: Rituals
    You create an Epic Spell that permanently summons a Couatl.
    The DC pre mitigation is 150 (30x5).
    Increase the Casting time to 10 minutes (-18).
    Increase the Casting time by 86 days (-132).
    The spell now is free to create and has a final DC of 0.

    The Draw back of this spell is the time required. If you have used arcane genesis to get your own personal demiplane with a much faster time trait that isn't really a problem but otherwise I recommend the following:
    Hire 15 level 9 casters to sacrifice 1 5th level spell slot per casting. And keep the 10 minute casting time. At level 21 you should be able to cast 2 Epic Spells per day.

    So day 1 you hire 15 level 9 casters and gain 2 Couatl's (which cast as level 9 clerics meaning 5th level spell slots).
    Day 2 you hire 13 casters and gain 2 more Couatl's. And so on. By day 8 you don't need to hire any more casters.

    Repeat the above until you have 30 Couatl's (so 15 days worth of casting).

    Now you make your next epic spell. This is like the one above but permanently summons a solar instead of a Couatl. You need 30 Couatl's to mitigate the DC down to 0 with a 10 minute casting time.

    Every 10 days of summoned solars allows you to mitigate away another 340 points of the spell craft DC. After 30 days you can mitigate away 1,290 points of the spell craft DC.


    Now make whatever spells you want and mitigate away the costs. Permanent buffs are very nice.

    -----------
    The other way (thats less cheap) is to make Fortify Intelligence spells and just stack them (you get +1 spell craft for every 2 points of Intelligence).

    ---------------
    Now let's assume that you did the ritual thing.

    Some good spells are the following:
    Immunity to all Spells:
    DC 970 pre mitigation (use the Ward seed and don't choose the radius option). This includes immunity to all epic spells as well.
    Resistance to all Normal attacks:
    DC 1,290 pre mitigation (again using the ward seed). This gives you resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage of 125 points per turn.
    Sonic Bolt:
    DC 1,290 Pre mitigation. This uses the energy seed and gives you the spell like ability to create a Sonic Bolt that deals 633d6 damage (range 300 feet, reflex half) at will. But we only need 300d6 damage. Which allows us to add 312 to our caster level check to beat SR and change those d6's to d20's.
    Epic Armor:
    Use the armor seed and you can gain +24 AC of one of the nice types (Deflection, Luck, Divine, Profane, insight, etc). Get a few different versions (1 for each type) and you can end up with an AC of 120 just from this spell.


    Those are just some ideas.

    But the real power comes with the Origin of the Species spells. You make a creature that can breed in like 5 seconds and that has every possible ability you can think of as an Ex ability, including the ability to instantaneously mind switch with 1 willing person. You then make it extra specially loyal to you and order the mind switch. All the sudden you are in a body that makes the gods whimper in fear. Although for the really good ones you need to be able to mitigate a DC of around 20,000.

    ------------------------
    No I am not suggesting that you actually go out and use Epic magic like this but that is how you do the uber broken Epic casting. And even this stuff (besides the Origin of the Species) pales beside some of the stuff you can do (I have moved stars around before.).
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Yon mighty Cosmic Descryer, which, as one of the best Epic casters, you really should be choosing, can also crank out infinite caster level spells - works very well with, say, Holy Word, or indeed any CL-uncapped spell.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Some thoughts:

    1) Remember, the game is a cooperative venture between the players and the DM. You're expected to be at similar power levels to the other players, and to be able to competently combat the monsters that are around. The things Tippy describes put you way outside of the appropriate power level (as he says at the end of his post.) You might be able to use some of his tricks in lesser ways to create more appropriate powers, though. Also, the DM should hold up his end of the bargain by giving you appropriate challenges, which brings us to...

    2) Being in epic doesn't mean you should only be fighting stuff out of the ELH that has SR 40+. There are still plenty of epic monsters that have only minor SR, and plenty of non-epic monsters that can be advanced to epic. If you're only fighting things with absurd SR, either your DM or the module is doing something wrong.

    3) For the occasional high SR monster, look into spells like "Assay Spell Resistance", and pick up as many caster levels as you can from items. Also use your spells to manipulate the environment instead of your opponent -- he might save against disintegrate, but the floor underneath him won't. He might be able to resist or save against most of your spells, but not be able to break through a wall of force or even a wall of iron.

    4) Some of the book's Epic Spells have intentionally crazy-high DC's. They're meant to give you some idea as to what could be done if you kept playing to extremely high levels and used all sorts of rituals and so on. You can create pretty cool epic spells with much lower DC's. Use mitigating factors to bring DC's down, and use items (not valuable epic feats!) to bring your skill checks up.

    5) Similar to Assay Spell Resistance... use (quickened, if you don't have it houseruled to be a swift action already) True Strike when you need to land a touch attack.

    6) In epic, everything saves. Save-or-suck spells aren't so effective any more unless you can cast multiple spells at the same creature targeting its weakest save. If you hit it 4 times and it needs to roll a 4 or lower, chances are it'll blow one of them. This means Multispell is your friend. (Twin Spell and Split Ray are also nice.) My epic party doesn't have a wizard right now, but our cleric casts 4-5 spells every single round -- buffs, debuffs, save-or-sucks, save-and-still-sucks, you name it. With an amulet of second chances, she can make something save or die 8 times in a round. It'll get really sick when she picks up a pair of auto-quicken feats at level 27.

    7) Remember, you do have a party with you. There are things you can cast that make them more effective. This includes dispelling combat protections, giving buffs, grappling foes with Bigby spells, even casting benign transposition or dimension door to get someone across the battlefield quickly. And there are things they can do to help you. If your hasted rogue dual-wields wounding shattermantle shortswords, he can drop an enemy's CON by 7 every round and SR by 14 (the SR loss resets at the start of his next turn.) All of a sudden your fort-save-or-suck spells are going to work better.

    Hopefully this gives you something to go on.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Emperor Tippy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Just Because:

    Star Creation
    Conjuration (Creation)
    Spellcraft DC: 0 (pre-mitigation 4.98713723x10^29)
    [b]Components:[b] V, S
    Casting Time: 1 minute
    Range: 5 ft.
    Effect: One Sol like star
    Duration: Permanent
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    To Develop: 0 gp; 0 days; 0 XP. Seed: conjure (DC 21) Factors: increase volume of matter created to 4.98713723x10^28 cubic feet (+9.97427446x10^28 DC), Suppressible By Caster (+2 DC), Permanent (x5 DC) Mitigating factor: 2.93361014x10^28 casters sacrificing a 9th level spell slot.

    This spell creates a Sol type star. The caster can suppress or restart it at will.


    So to get that many solars at 2 per day would take 40,186.4403 billion trillion years. But luckily we don't have to wait that long.

    After 30 days of summoning you have enough solars to create a spell that summons 11 solars at a time. So after another 30 days that is 11,200 more you can mitigate away. This allows you to make another spell that summons 112 Solars per casting. So after another 30 days (day 105 since you summoned your first Couatl) that is 114,240 more to mitigate away. This allows another spell that summons 1,149 Solars per casting. So after another 30 days that is 1,171,980 more you can mitigate away. Repeat until you get enough solars.

    Roughly you get 10 times as many Solars every 30 days. So to get enough solars to make a star takes about 28 months, or a 2.33 years.

    But if you really want ot get in the habit of creating stars then you should use origin of the species to give the star creation ability to a creature as an Ex ability usable at will. Getting enough solars for this will take about 13 years. But with everything else you want to add to yourself lets call it 15 years.


    -----
    So 15 years after getting Epic Casting you can create Solar Systems at will. I still haven't figured out the numbers for a dyson sphere yet though. Maybe later.
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Just Because:

    Star Creation
    Conjuration (Creation)
    Spellcraft DC: 0 (pre-mitigation 4.98713723x10^29)
    [b]Components:[b] V, S
    Casting Time: 1 minute
    Range: 5 ft.
    Effect: One Sol like star
    Duration: Permanent
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    To Develop: 0 gp; 0 days; 0 XP. Seed: conjure (DC 21) Factors: increase volume of matter created to 4.98713723x10^28 cubic feet (+9.97427446x10^28 DC), Suppressible By Caster (+2 DC), Permanent (x5 DC) Mitigating factor: 2.93361014x10^28 casters sacrificing a 9th level spell slot.

    This spell creates a Sol type star. The caster can suppress or restart it at will.


    So to get that many solars at 2 per day would take 40,186.4403 billion trillion years. But luckily we don't have to wait that long.

    After 30 days of summoning you have enough solars to create a spell that summons 11 solars at a time. So after another 30 days that is 11,200 more you can mitigate away. This allows you to make another spell that summons 112 Solars per casting. So after another 30 days (day 105 since you summoned your first Couatl) that is 114,240 more to mitigate away. This allows another spell that summons 1,149 Solars per casting. So after another 30 days that is 1,171,980 more you can mitigate away. Repeat until you get enough solars.

    Roughly you get 10 times as many Solars every 30 days. So to get enough solars to make a star takes about 28 months, or a 2.33 years.

    But if you really want ot get in the habit of creating stars then you should use origin of the species to give the star creation ability to a creature as an Ex ability usable at will. Getting enough solars for this will take about 13 years. But with everything else you want to add to yourself lets call it 15 years.


    -----
    So 15 years after getting Epic Casting you can create Solar Systems at will. I still haven't figured out the numbers for a dyson sphere yet though. Maybe later.
    Tippy!

    Will giant moons made out of Iridium orbit this star?

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quadruple post? Someone's excited

    The standard epic spells are terrifically difficult for a 24th-level wizard to cast . You have to use the epic spell-creation rules to lower the Spellcraft DC , by making it a ritual (cast over many days) and by incorporating the help of lesser spellcasters (who contribute a number of their high spell slots). There are other methods which are less attractive, like backlash (take damage) and XP loss (good god why?).

    Depending on how friendly your DM is, you can stack item bonusses from a Crystal Mask, a custom ioun stone, certain spells ... D&D's official rules are that you can't stack bonusses with similar types ( wearing an item with a +5 luck bonus and other +3 luck bonus gives you a +5, NOT a +8 ). If you have a munchkin-friendly DM, he'll let you stack bonusses as well as develop your own items for further increasing yourr Spellcraft.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Stop trying to fight head on. Even if you're blasting, you need simply massive amounts of damage to keep up with a fighter, and attacking the opponent directly isn't going to work. Remember that an Epic wizard has a wider choice of targets. Fighting a Paragon Gargoyle? Use your magic and knock a tree on him. Fighting underground? Knock a stalactite onto it's head.

    Wizards fight in the box, Epic Wizards fight outside the box. (Sorcerors stick you inside the box and jump on it.)

    Tippy: Yes, isn't it fun to get Epic magic and have a chance to turn it on the DM once in a while? Like rearranging the night sky so his fleet crashes into the rocky shoreline.

    Or better still, combining an Epic Benign Transposition and Control Winds to send his boat sailing off in another direction.
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    furious Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Sorry about that, I have a very slightly retarded computer. It posts but waits several minutes to tell me it's done so. Plus I have dial-up.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    In one game I moved a good thousand stars around and sped up the speed of light just so I could spell out words in stars.

    Greatest Marriage proposal ever.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
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    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    In one game I moved a good thousand stars around and sped up the speed of light just so I could spell out words in stars.

    Greatest Marriage proposal ever.
    "What is you want, Mary? What do you want? You want the moon? Just say the word, and I'll cast a custom Epic Spell and rearrange the entire night sky!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    "What is you want, Mary? What do you want? You want the moon? Just say the word, and I'll cast a custom Epic Spell and rearrange the entire night sky!"
    To be fair I was proposing to a godess. I didn't think something simple like taking her out to dinner would make the proper impression.

    That was a fun game. ECL 50 and we were all wizards or clerics. Baseball with planets was a good sport as well.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  23. - Top - End - #23

    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by CrowSpawn View Post
    I am currently playing in a campaign called The Drow War, created by Mongoose Publishing. The Campaign is released in three books, each book encompassing ten levels. So one of these books is epic 21-30. When I first saw this, I was terribly excited. I have been playing Third Edition since it came out and I have never ever played in, or DMed an epic level game. When I knew I would eventually go epic, there was only one class choice I knew I had to do: Wizard. The very idea of creating my very own epic spells had me shivering for joy. I couldn't wait.
    As a preamble, I'd like to point out that nothing in any book suggests that you can't create your own non-epic spells. The only difference in epic play is that the ELH goes out of its way to encourage custom spell creation.


    Quote Originally Posted by CrowSpawn View Post
    I discover that most epic spells have spellcraft DC's so atrociously high that even with my skill focused and synergy'd spellcraft of 36, I would never achieve such cool spells as Hellball (and a few others whose name escapes me). At best, even with epic skill focus, my spellcraft will only achieve a 48 + whatever my final Int bonus will be. Did you see that? A spellcraft of possibly high 50's? I can scarcely conceive of such a thing, and yet it is still too low. How utterly disappointing.
    To be blunt, the ELH is rubbish and the Epic Spellcasting is the toxic waste of the landfill. Among epic players it is a commonly known fact that epic spellcasting's only useful purpose is to create stupidly long lasting buff spells and one or two other niche spell types. Any epic spell that deals damage is a waste of gold and XP because such spells are much easier to use as meta'd non epic spells.


    Quote Originally Posted by CrowSpawn View Post
    since this epic game has started, I have been consistently and frustratingly useless. Every monster we face has a SR so high that I can almost never succeed against it. Last night I fought Paragon Gargoyles. Their SR was higher than what I could achieve on a natural 20. They were essentially immune to me. How about touch attacks with no SR you say? Wonderful! I'll try that. *rolls a 19 plus touch attack!* Misses touch AC. What? So I have to roll a natural 20 there too? *cries*
    Yeah, epic monsters are just not very well thought out. Any epic DM should really be tailoring his monsters to his PCs' abilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by CrowSpawn View Post
    monster has an attack rating of 40-60+. So my high wizard AC means absolutely balls. How about that monsters spell-like abilities? Is that a DC 40? What what? But! But I can hardly make that! And they're ALL like that??
    Well to be fair high level AC isn't supposed to stop anything, it's only supposed to prevent massive Power Attack usage. But again, epic monsters and epic play in general is poorly thought out.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrowSpawn View Post
    those of you who actually read my ridiculously long tirade, please tell me what the deal is. Comments, questions, ideas. Anything. It would really be appreciated.
    I have come up with my own epic rules based on my experience with epic play; to play in epic under standard rules you basically have to be a power gamer, which I don't like. If you're interested I can provide you and your DM with them.
    Last edited by Tequila Sunrise; 2008-02-06 at 06:16 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Nowhere Girl's Avatar

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    I think the big problem with epic magic is that it's either prohibitively difficult to use (as the original poster feels) ... or you cheat like mad -- technically within the rules but cheesing horribly, as Tippy showed us how to do. Post-Tippy cheese, epic magic is now useful, yes. Brokenly useful. Basically cheating. The game, for all meaningful purposes, is over ... or at least it's over for everyone save the wizard PC and any wizard NPCs.

    So your choices with epic magic are either:

    A. It sucks.

    B. It's godlike. You either completely break the game, or the DM smites your character and throws away the sheet. Either way, no one wants to play with you anymore because it's hard to enjoy a game in which no one but the wizard matters.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    As far as AC goes, that's not your thing as a wizard. I recommend keeping and ironguard spell prepared (SpC). Granted, it's not going to protect you from things with natural attacks (unless they have metal claws) but it doesn't matter how epic they and their sword are, metal of any sort -- magical or otherwise -- can't do a thing to you with ironguard up.
    On DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPC’s doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
    Divide By Zero: Irreverent Fool, you are my hero.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    "What is you want, Mary? What do you want? You want the moon? Just say the word, and I'll cast a custom Epic Spell and rearrange the entire night sky!"
    You are not allowed to put Jimmy Stewart into a D&D game ever again.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    You are not allowed to put Jimmy Stewart into a D&D game ever again.
    Personally I love the idea of playing the Red Dwarf crew when they started playing pool with planets to block up a white hole. If you're gonna rearrainge the sky at least do it for cheap laughs rather than to get laid
    Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by mostlyharmful View Post
    Personally I love the idea of playing the Red Dwarf crew when they started playing pool with planets to block up a white hole. If you're gonna rearrainge the sky at least do it for cheap laughs rather than to get laid
    Oh, the whole party was rearranging the multiverse on a whim. One of the other PC's was using planets as the material component for one of his spells. I mean we were partying with the gods every night and Boccob would come over to ask advice for spells he was making.

    When you are playing ECL 50 with 4 gestalt wizards who were encouraged to power game and optimize to their hearts content nothing was a real threat. We spent most of our time RPing outrageously random **** and having fun/funny competitions.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Like rearranging the night sky so his fleet crashes into the rocky shoreline.
    Some of them should've jumped into the tidal pools. :P

    But, yeah, you can crazy cheese out your epic magic, so long as your DM doesn't notice that any epic magic you design explicitly requires his approval.

    If you can squeeze past that, you're gravy. Otherwise, you'll have to work with your DM to develop spells that are potent, but not overly so. If a specific epic spell you want to design is too weak to bother with without excessive cheese, tell your DM and see if you can't get it more in line with the power you should have.

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    Default Re: Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Oh, the whole party was rearranging the multiverse on a whim. One of the other PC's was using planets as the material component for one of his spells. I mean we were partying with the gods every night and Boccob would come over to ask advice for spells he was making.

    When you are playing ECL 50 with 4 gestalt wizards who were encouraged to power game and optimize to their hearts content nothing was a real threat. We spent most of our time RPing outrageously random **** and having fun/funny competitions.
    So basically, you were godlike beings that hadn't gotten around to using Origin of Species to create your own races of worshipers in your personal demiplanes yet?

    If you want to know what I'd do with godlike power, go read the short story Sandkings. Minus the part where he's a complete twit and gets himself eaten.
    Praise me not for my born strengths, but for what I make of them.
    Scorn me not for my born faults, but for my failure to overcome them.

    The Practical Monk's Manuscript

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