Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

[Rodin]

Quantum Mechanics isn't definitively explained yet (as I understand things), but that's not magic is it?

There's a distinction in what Zimmy is saying.

Kat believes that magic is like Quantum Mechanics - it's something that has an explanation, but we don't know what it is...and ergo it isn't magic, it's just sufficiently advanced science that appears to be magic.

Annie believes that magic is magic, and cannot be explained because it is magic.

Zimmy is saying that "magic" is something that cannot be explained...but it isn't actually magic. It's just something that cannot be explained by its very nature, and no amount of studying it will give an explanation. The difference between this and what Annie believes is a very fine line, but I think I get what she's talking about. Magic would be supernatural. The ether is entirely natural, but cannot be explained by science.

I think.

[halfeye]

There's a distinction in what Zimmy is saying.

Kat believes that magic is like Quantum Mechanics - it's something that has an explanation, but we don't know what it is...and ergo it isn't magic, it's just sufficiently advanced science that appears to be magic.

Annie believes that magic is magic, and cannot be explained because it is magic.

Zimmy is saying that "magic" is something that cannot be explained...but it isn't actually magic. It's just something that cannot be explained by its very nature, and no amount of studying it will give an explanation. The difference between this and what Annie believes is a very fine line, but I think I get what she's talking about. Magic would be supernatural. The ether is entirely natural, but cannot be explained by science.

I think.

How are we sure that quantum mecanics has an explanation?

[Rodin]

How are we sure that quantum mecanics has an explanation?

We aren't, but scientists (like Kat) are convinced that it does. We just don't know it yet. In Kat's view, quantum mechanics and magic are identical.

Zimmy is saying she is wrong, while also stating that magic does not exist.

[Ibrinar]

There's a distinction in what Zimmy is saying.

Kat believes that magic is like Quantum Mechanics - it's something that has an explanation, but we don't know what it is...and ergo it isn't magic, it's just sufficiently advanced science that appears to be magic.

Annie believes that magic is magic, and cannot be explained because it is magic.

Zimmy is saying that "magic" is something that cannot be explained...but it isn't actually magic. It's just something that cannot be explained by its very nature, and no amount of studying it will give an explanation. The difference between this and what Annie believes is a very fine line, but I think I get what she's talking about. Magic would be supernatural. The ether is entirely natural, but cannot be explained by science.

I think.

Though I would consider supernatural just our categorization of magic because we consider it something that doesn't exist. I wouldn't consider supernatural part of the definition of magic.

[Rodin]

Though I would consider supernatural just our categorization of magic because we consider it something that doesn't exist. I wouldn't consider supernatural part of the definition of magic.

When you go down that route it leads to defining magic out of existence, rather like Zimmy is doing. If magic is something that follows the natural laws of the universe (even if they are not "real world" laws), then what is it other than a different form of science? A thousand years ago, electricity was magic.

What exactly IS the objective definition of magic? I'm not sure there is one.

To me, describing magic as "supernatural feats not performable in the real world" is the simplest and most flexible definition to start with. You can sub-divide and exclude things from there, like mutant and superhero powers. Ultimately, what magic is will depend on what work of fiction you are discussing. You still have to have somewhere to start if you're going to try and compare Gandalf to Dr. Strange.

[halfeye]

When you go down that route it leads to defining magic out of existence, rather like Zimmy is doing. If magic is something that follows the natural laws of the universe (even if they are not "real world" laws), then what is it other than a different form of science? A thousand years ago, electricity was magic.

What exactly IS the objective definition of magic? I'm not sure there is one.

To me, describing magic as "supernatural feats not performable in the real world" is the simplest and most flexible definition to start with. You can sub-divide and exclude things from there, like mutant and superhero powers. Ultimately, what magic is will depend on what work of fiction you are discussing. You still have to have somewhere to start if you're going to try and compare Gandalf to Dr. Strange.

Gandalf isn't Dr Strange and/or Merlin?

[Rodin]

Gandalf isn't Dr Strange and/or Merlin?

...No?

I'm really baffled by what you're asking here.

[halfeye]

...No?

I'm really baffled by what you're asking here.

It's sort of a joke mainly: but really, they are all fiction, they are each the top non-"evil" magic user in their respective stories, how are they different.

[137beth]

To me, describing magic as "supernatural feats not performable in the real world" is the simplest and most flexible definition to start with.

I partially agree. However, unless a work of fiction breaks the fourth wall, this definition is not possible for characters in-universe to understand.

[Lizard Lord]

It just reads to me as defining magic as something that can't exist without giving any other explanation to it just for the sake of proving those (like Annie) that believe in magic wrong. Those that believe in it wouldn't agree with such a definition.

[Gez]

The best approach I've seen is that magic can be either exploited or explained, but not both.

Suppose you can generate fireballs at will. Your scientist friend comes up with a lot of ways to examine and analyze what's happening. Finally he discovers that all along it was just spontaneous explosions of swamp gas, a complete coincidence. Now you can't generate fireballs at will anymore. Thanks, scientist friend.

[Narkis]

The best approach I've seen is that magic can be either exploited or explained, but not both.

Suppose you can generate fireballs at will. Your scientist friend comes up with a lot of ways to examine and analyze what's happening. Finally he discovers that all along it was just spontaneous explosions of swamp gas, a complete coincidence. Now you can't generate fireballs at will anymore. Thanks, scientist friend.

I don't see how explaining a phenomenon stops you from using it as you did before. People didn't randomly stop being able to make fire when it was discovered that it's the bonding of carbon and oxygen and not a classical element.

[Lizard Lord]

The best approach I've seen is that magic can be either exploited or explained, but not both.

Suppose you can generate fireballs at will. Your scientist friend comes up with a lot of ways to examine and analyze what's happening. Finally he discovers that all along it was just spontaneous explosions of swamp gas, a complete coincidence. Now you can't generate fireballs at will anymore. Thanks, scientist friend.

That's just it. Magic that can't be explained is thus defined by being something that is explained by not having an explanation. "It just works" is the only explanation. However Zimmy, who doesn't believe in magic, is saying that something that is explained by not having an an explanation isn't magic. So then what, according to her, would be magic? Does Zimmy just define magic as something that doesn't exist?

[Gez]

I don't see how explaining a phenomenon stops you from using it as you did before.

Because it turns out you've never been using it before, it was just a bunch of freaky coincidences!

[Narkis]

Because it turns out you've never been using it before, it was just a bunch of freaky coincidences!

And the coincidences coincidentally stopped coinciding just when given a scientific explanation? Suspicious.

[Gez]

And the coincidences coincidentally stopped coinciding just when given a scientific explanation? Suspicious.

Less suspicious than if they kept happening.

[Typewriter]

That's just it. Magic that can't be explained is thus defined by being something that is explained by not having an explanation. "It just works" is the only explanation. However Zimmy, who doesn't believe in magic, is saying that something that is explained by not having an an explanation isn't magic. So then what, according to her, would be magic? Does Zimmy just define magic as something that doesn't exist?

Perhaps it's more of a comprehension thing. Things that happen that can't be understood from a 'mortal' POV are classified as magic. It doesn't mean that no explanation exists so much as it means that we just can't understand it. Maybe that's one of the things that's leading Kat to eventually becoming a god - she's learning more and more about 'magic' and learning more and more how to do things that others don't understand. If the ether is part of a higher plane and she's able to reach 'up' to that higher plane to force it to have effects back 'down' in the normal plane that's pretty intense.

[137beth]

So any bets as to who this mysterious person talking to the robot is?

[Lizard Lord]

So any bets as to who this mysterious person talking to the robot is?

Didn't she already say? She is a program representation in the robot's mind to help it through this process.

If she was Kat she would have said so and I don't see why she would be any other known character.

[Typewriter]

Didn't she already say? She is a program representation in the robot's mind to help it through this process.

If she was Kat she would have said so and I don't see why she would be any other known character.

I wonder if there's not a bit more to it than that. Kat doesn't strike me as the sort to create 'angels' to do her bidding so I'm guessing that this program is some sort of 'transition assistant' that she had Robot build for her. Robot, being robot made it into this 'divine' experience. Or maybe the transition process involves the ether and it's taking a program Kat made and 'adapting' it based off of her divine aspects. She makes something that looks ordinary to her - but to everyone else it looks like an angel?

[wingnutx]

It's just a character generation wizard that looks like a person.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Huh. Now I wasn't expecting that. Knowing Tom it might be a red herring that is deflated in the very next page, but if it isn't...

The guide claimed to be a representation, but since these are robots we are talking about, it's possible that they are capable of serious multi-tasking.

Could it be the boat? It was capable of networking.

[wingnutx]

The guide is very similar to Neuromancer.

[Zea mays]

Robots discovering their inner fish.

[Typewriter]

I'm finding chapter very interesting. Kat has always been my favorite character and I've always been curious about her status as a 'god' and how it comes to be. All this time it seemed like it was stemming from a simple misunderstanding. Robot thinks Kat is amazing, tells other Robots, then the other robots worship her. Their worship grants her power and form in the ether. As they come to her she helps them in small ways that they mistake for angelic/divine intervention.

But at this point I'm not so sure that calling it a simple misunderstanding or mistake is really appropriate anymore. She's creating worlds for creatures to live and thrive in. She's not just 'helping' robots with little things here and there - she's freeing the minds of an oppressed people and granting each of them a kingdom of self discovery and wonder. How could that be, from the Robots perspective, anything other than a divine presence? If some entity suddenly freed me from physical constraints that I never knew I had, allowing my mind to grow and expand, to see, hear, feel, and understand things I'd never before thought possible wouldn't I think of it as some form of divine being?

And the more I think about it the more I find this to be an amazing parallel to the conversation about magic between Zimmy and Annie. What is magic if not forces that cannot be understood? What is divinity to the robots if not forces that cannot be understood.

On the one side of the story we have the Kat as the benefactor of 'magic' - granting a power that she understands to those who can't fathom it.
On the other side of the story we have Annie as the recipient of 'magic' - receiving a power that she doesn't understand and who can't fathom it.

[137beth]

There are two new retrospective videos for the Annie in the Forrest side-comics.

I thought some fans' reactions to AitF was utterly nonsensical. The text of part 2 states explicitly what was strongly implied in part 1: Annie (incorrectly) thought that Kamlen had a crush on her. Somehow, though, some readers managed to convince themselves that AitF "definitively confirms" that Annie has or had a crush on Kamlen. The comic actually states no such thing, and doesn't even do much to hint at it except to show Annie blushing (which, as the author points out, can mean other things). It is entirely possible to think (correctly or not) that someone is attracted to you even if you aren't attracted to them. The text doesn't say Annie isn't attracted to Kamlen, but it doesn't say she is, either.

I get that some people are shippers and want to see Annie in a relationship with someone, but what someone wants to happen in the comic, what someone predicts will happen in the comic, and what already has happened in the comic are three different things.

Given my past thoughts on how fans interpreted the side comics, I was quite amused to hear Magnolia in the video say that Annie was crushing on Kamlen in that first scene, followed by Tom's reaction.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

My first time reading the Coyote comic.

Spoiler

Show

So it was Coyote who took Ysengrin's ear. I guess their relationship was bad from the beginning.

Also, Coyote's approach to gaining powers is interesting. Just...meet new dogs and imitate them. And based on his interaction with the raven, he already had powers before that.

[137beth]

Spoiler: Coyote

Show

The appearance of Coyote gaining strength has some visual similarities to Coyote giving 'his' strength away. Maybe Tom used one as a reference for the other.

Also interesting to see that from Coyote's perspective, the river is basically a line in the dirt.

[wingnutx]

Eglamore you dog.

[Narkis]

Heh. This page is much funnier in retrospect.