OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Probably should, since going into an AMF doesn't erase the damage you took from a Fireball.

[Doug Lampert]

The effects of Conjuration spells with Duration: Instantaneous, work in an antimagic field, because the conjured matter isn't magical.

But I don't know that the same is true of other spell schools with spells with Duration: Instantaneous.

Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

The definition of instantaneous is that the magic is OVER once the spell takes effect. An already petrified character remains petrified in an antimagic field because there IS NO MAGIC TO SUPRESS.

[Ionathus]

Ooof, yeah, that's worrying, that might make her start to cause problems for them! She might even attack them, poison and petrify critical party members, and try to wipe their memories to completely destroy their efforts to save the world! They better be careful!

Sorry, but while you're not exactly wrong, taking her from "hostile" to "even more hostile" doesn't seem like that much of a worry for them.

Not sure where the snark is coming from -- it's just an observation. Further antagonizing Serini doesn't just make her hostile now: it also makes it harder to talk her down later.

Given that pretty much everyone on the forums (aside from the "die painfully" fragment) seems to be expecting and wanting some variation of "Serini eventually stops fighting – either via successful diplomacy or being physically subdued – and helps the Order," Serini's antagonism being reinforced is a worrying development for basically everyone.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Yes, I got that that's what you think Elan might say in that scenario, and the response from, Sunny would probably be "you already did, you bozo". And replacing "twice" with "thrice" doesn't really have as much punch, especially when there's only five.

Could make a nice comedy routine.

Relatedly, I imagine Elan would be flattered to be compared to the most famous clown ever.

[Psyren]

Not sure where the snark is coming from -- it's just an observation. Further antagonizing Serini doesn't just make her hostile now: it also makes it harder to talk her down later.

Given that pretty much everyone on the forums (aside from the "die painfully" fragment) seems to be expecting and wanting some variation of "Serini eventually stops fighting – either via successful diplomacy or being physically subdued – and helps the Order," Serini's antagonism being reinforced is a worrying development for basically everyone.

There was no snark in my post that I can see I merely said Serini was being the opposite of helpful.

1) If she doesn't already think they'd want plot details* or direct assistance from her... I dunno what else she could be thinking they'd want.
2) I think we're already at the point where Sunny is the one with the best, possibly only, chance of talking her down.

*"Plot details" in this case being "learning more about the dungeon whose defenses are likely their last hope of beating TE and saving the Gate."

[elecampane]

I'm very glad Sunny finally missed, because uninterrupted success streak on all of their previous 8 attacks was becoming irksome to me

Also, I noticed that in the 7th panel Sunny seems to wave with an eyestalk toward their back. What does that mean? Minor details had been important in this comic before.

3. Non-lethal use of disintegrate (I appreciate innovative uses of spells).

Beholders canonically use their disintegrate ray to carve out their lairs from rock; they also often make corridors vertical to make their lairs difficult to traverse for any land-bound creature

5. The cliff hanger: now that Sunny has turned his anti-magic eye back on, what magical effect across the room, off screen, is going to be dispelled? Will Durkon turn back to flesh? (Not sure how that might work in 3.5e).

Since it suppresses but does not dispel magical things (even supernatural ones), it should actually suppress petrification, but only while the petrified being is in the field. Take it out of the field and the petrification effect reappears.

Antimagic field very specifically would not affect Durkon, as the ray petrification works (as per creature description) like a Flesh to Stone spell, said spell is instantaneous, and Antimagic Field only affects ongoing magical effects and items

Yeah, they are chasing her, but now it's 3 v 1 and they were losing 7 v 2. The odds haven't improved. In fact, they are worse.

I mean, Haley almost single-handedly won this with a little help from Elan, and an assist from V. Unless Serini manages to get reinforcements, I l'm liking this particular 3 vs 1 chances.

What eye did Vaarsuvius get hit with? It's not disintegration or petrification. Does anyone recognize what hit, or will we only find out in a few strips?

The ray that did hit V is not Charm monser/person (no swirly eyes), Flesh to stone (V is not grey afterwards), disintegrate (looks different). That leaves Sleep (doesn't work on elves), Fear (irrelevant, as it would make V fear Sunny, and they are moving from them anyway), Slow (unpleasant, but with overland flight V's speed would still be 20ft, V can also dispel it again), Telekinesis (unlikely, as it requires concentration, and Sunny is immediately distracted)
Or, you know, V could succeed in their saving throw at last.
All in all, V will likely be ok.

I mean, we need to also keep in mind that the Eyestalk Beams have a DC 18 saving throw. That's in the hard, but not unbeatable territory, especially for high-level characters.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the entire party failed their saving throws last time. Hell, Flesh to Stone's save is Constitution-based, and Durkon's a high-level Dwarven Cleric (who get high-progression on Fort saves) who's much more of a bashing-faces type cleric (thus would likely have a high Constitution on top of the Dwarven racial bonuses), it's honestly pretty surprising that he managed to fail that.

Sure, obviously, we're reading a story and not following a campaign, the rule on when a character makes or fails their saving throw is "When the plot says so", not pesky things like rules, but the point is just that it might only be setting up a gag in the next strip where Haley asks which beam V got hit by, V doesn't know but says he's fine, and Belkar comments "...wait, we can make saving throws?" or something >_>.

Preach.
Also, would like to point out, that will is Elan's strong saving throw; even with a wis of 8 (int is his dump stat, not wis) he would still has a will save of at least 8, giving him a 55% chance to beat a beholder's DC 18 charm ray. He failed it at least 3 times (2x charm person and telekinesis)

And almost half the party beat the Vampiric Gaze save!

To be fair, vampire's gaze DC is 10 + half their HD + Cha mod; as average dwarf would have a negative charisma, lower-level minions would likely have DC below 15. At the party's level even weak saving throw should be at least 5, so it's entirely reasonable half of them made the save

It's really hard to see that panel as anything but Haley deliberately shielding herself with V, so I hope the idea that was the Sleep beam is correct. It'd be pretty nuts if she could remember and deduce that particular eye's effect AND make such a judgment call in an instant like that though.

I mean, she did shout "look out", so I rather read that as Haley trying to pull V from harm's way.

[Ionathus]

There was no snark in my post that I can see I merely said Serini was being the opposite of helpful.

1) If she doesn't already think they'd want plot details* or direct assistance from her... I dunno what else she could be thinking they'd want.
2) I think we're already at the point where Sunny is the one with the best, possibly only, chance of talking her down.

*"Plot details" in this case being "learning more about the dungeon whose defenses are likely their last hope of beating TE and saving the Gate."

The snark comment was more directed at Wraithfighter -- my response evolved as I was writing and by the end it didn't actually have much to do with your comment. My bad.

To answer your point 1) above -- I suppose she could think they'd just want to get past her and guard/destroy the gate themselves, but given their repeated Sendings that doesn't seem a highly likely assumption.

[elros]

I am looking forward to the conversation involving Haley, Belkar, and Serini (V got zapped so I don’t expect V to say much). It might be a rare occasion where Belkar contributes to a non-violent ending!

[Wraithfighter]

Not sure where the snark is coming from -- it's just an observation. Further antagonizing Serini doesn't just make her hostile now: it also makes it harder to talk her down later.

Given that pretty much everyone on the forums (aside from the "die painfully" fragment) seems to be expecting and wanting some variation of "Serini eventually stops fighting – either via successful diplomacy or being physically subdued – and helps the Order," Serini's antagonism being reinforced is a worrying development for basically everyone.

It's a fair observation, but I just don't see the value in the Order worrying about it. If she escapes she'll be impossible to talk down. If they talk about any other reason to chase her down, it'll probably make it harder to talk her down. If they chase her at all, it'll be harder to talk her down. But she's already showing that she has absolutely zero interest in being talked down right now, and at least they're not saying "We need to chase her down so we can kill her!" or "we need to chase her down so that she can tell us where the gate is so we can destroy it!" or something like that.

My snark was meant more in a "Oh no! Anyway..." sorta mindset, because... yeah, you're not wrong. There's also no other really viable option, and the Order shouldn't be criticized for picking the least bad of the available options when there's a Beholder firing eyestalk beams at them.

[Peelee]

It's really hard to see that panel as anything but Haley deliberately shielding herself with V, so I hope the idea that was the Sleep beam is correct. It'd be pretty nuts if she could remember and deduce that particular eye's effect AND make such a judgment call in an instant like that though.

It's funny, I didn't have that impression at all until I read this thread.

[Fyraltari]

So Sunny can't open their big eye without firing the antimafic cone, but they can open their smaller eyes without casting anything?

[Duncun]

Also, I noticed that in the 7th panel Sunny seems to wave with an eyestalk toward their back. What does that mean? Minor details had been important in this comic before.

It looks to be eyestalk 8 that he used to disintegrate the wall. So maybe it is just an indication of him moving it out of the way to use the other stalks.

[Duncun]

So Sunny can't open their big eye without firing the antimafic cone, but they can open their smaller eyes without casting anything?

Seems that way.

[Psyren]

So Sunny can't open their big eye without firing the antimafic cone, but they can open their smaller eyes without casting anything?

The cone is continuous while the rays are use-activated (MM 27).

[Alexandrite]

Well, if Sunny's being left alone with Elan then he's pretty much an ally already.

I'm definitely in the minority here but I just don't find his personality that interesting. (Sunny, not Elan) If he does turn out to be the major ally I'll be a little disappointed on top of finding it a bit of a cop-out since OG beholder was a character in the loosest sense of the word.

[Peelee]

Well, if Sunny's being left alone with Elan then he's pretty much an ally already.

I'm definitely in the minority here but I just don't find his personality that interesting. (Sunny, not Elan) If he does turn out to be the major ally I'll be a little disappointed on top of finding it a bit of a cop-out since OG beholder was a character in the loosest sense of the word.

I would imagine any character who only appeared on a single page would be a character in the loosest sense of the word, for what it's worth.

[137beth]

Elan can work his method and convince Sunny to switch sides?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Jay R]

Elan vs. Sunny, a battle of wits for the ages.

Ah, Sunny vs. Elan. Truly a duel of wits -- or lack thereof -- for the ages.

Specifically, for the ages five to seven.

[Fyraltari]

Elan can work his method and convince Sunny to switch sides?

I don't think Sunny even has sides to switch. However maybe a little talk will make Elan and them see eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye.

[Wraithfighter]

Specifically, for the ages five to seven.

To be fair to Elan, he's a lot smarter than he looks. His ploy to get Sunny to blink was quite clever, and he did a good job twisting Roy's drunken ramble at the end of the last book into an inspirational speech.

To also be fair to Elan but in the mean way, it's not very hard to be smarter than he looks.

[Edreyn]

Why Elan is grey on last panel? Is he... petrified?

[hamishspence]

Antimagic fields make everything look a little greyer. Notice that in the previous panel his boots were grey but his head normal (the cone hit his lower half) and now it's his face that's grey and his boots brown (the cone no longer intersects his boots).

The same effect is visible when the ancient black dragon's using the spell (since it's a spell there, rather than an eye cone, it's spherical rather than conical).

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

[TooSoon]

The definition of instantaneous is that the magic is OVER once the spell takes effect. An already petrified character remains petrified in an antimagic field because there IS NO MAGIC TO SUPRESS.

Except that Elan has song of freedom and neutralize poison, which should have sorted out both Durkon and Roy's issues already. That he has not used these despite several free rounds of nothing happening is plot nerfing so Roy and Durkon can't reason with Serini until after hijinks ensue.

[enq]

Specifically, for the ages five to seven.

Brilliance :D

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini's antagonism being reinforced is a worrying development for basically everyone.

Doesn't worry me.

Relatedly, I imagine Elan would be flattered to be compared to the most famous clown ever.

Likely.

I am looking forward to the conversation involving Haley, Belkar, and Serini (V got zapped so I don’t expect V to say much). It might be a rare occasion where Belkar contributes to a non-violent ending!

Even better if Belkar ends up shanking Serini, inducing X's in her eyes. A little while later her troll constitutional element slowly brings her back (regenerate) with a serious attitude about it. (Which might just bring the oracle's prophecy to fruition; back stabbed by epic level Serini rogue might just do for Belkar).

Specifically, for the ages five to seven.

/me Applauds.

[hungrycrow]

Except that Elan has song of freedom and neutralize poison, which should have sorted out both Durkon and Roy's issues already. That he has not used these despite several free rounds of nothing happening is plot nerfing so Roy and Durkon can't reason with Serini until after hijinks ensue.

Song of Freedom takes an uninterrupted minute of singing to use, unless Rich decides to fudge the rules a bit. I don't know why Roy hasn't been revived yet though.

[DreamCreator]

When I looked at that panel where V got zapped, it kind of looks to me like the beam that was going to hit Haley, hit Vaarsuvius instead. It looks like V and Belkar both dodged the same beam, and in doing so V hopped in front of the beam meant for Haley/Haley pulled V up to carry them and inadvertently the beam that was aimed for Haley, hit Vaarsuvius instead.

Anyone else notice that?

This could also maybe indicate that, if Sunny is intending beams for certain people based on their class and abilities, he might've hit V with something that would be more impactful to a rogue than a wizard.

[Peelee]

Song of Freedom takes an uninterrupted minute of singing to use, unless Rich decides to fudge the rules a bit. I don't know why Roy hasn't been revived yet though.

Neutralize poison only neutralizes the poison. It doesn't undo any damages or effects already done by the poison.

[hungrycrow]

Neutralize poison only neutralizes the poison. It doesn't undo any damages or effects already done by the poison.

It depends on what the effect was. Elan was able to revive V, and presumably V was hit by the same poison.