combat strategy challenge

[MaxWilson]

@Max - Command flee won’t work unless your cleric speaks giant (fairly unlikely). By the stat block these giants only speak giant.

Good call. I never play clerics so forgot about that restriction.

I guess one of the big remaining questions is "is the Barbarian a willing or unwilling target for Polymorph?" : ) Assuming the answer is "willing", another question is "who should be the other Twin Polymorph target?" Since the Moon Druid is concentrating on Conjure Animals and the Sorcerer is concentrating on Twin Polymorph, I guess the Life Cleric and the Rogue are both candidates. I'm a cheapskate so I'm inclined to Polymorph the Cleric instead of having the Cleric cast a Banishment, while the Rogue plinks away with arrows, but I am not sure if that's the right choice.

Also, once a Stone Giant is prone, I think it potentially makes sense for one of the Giant Apes to grapple it to keep it prone, since that cuts it damage output by about 40% and lets you switch to killing other stone giants quickly. But don't do that if it's already almost dead (say, has taken 80+ damage).

There are other ways through this that involve more thinky or planning. I'm lazy. Also, how does draconic sorc have 14 AC?

Dex 12 maybe?

[Nhorianscum]

Dex 12 maybe?

Fair that.

[Frogreaver]

Good call. I never play clerics so forgot about that restriction.

I guess one of the big remaining questions is "is the Barbarian a willing or unwilling target for Polymorph?" : ) Assuming the answer is "willing", another question is "who should be the other Twin Polymorph target?" Since the Moon Druid is concentrating on Conjure Animals and the Sorcerer is concentrating on Twin Polymorph, I guess the Life Cleric and the Rogue are both candidates. I'm a cheapskate so I'm inclined to Polymorph the Cleric instead of having the Cleric cast a Banishment, while the Rogue plinks away with arrows, but I am not sure if that's the right choice.

Also, once a Stone Giant is prone, I think it potentially makes sense for one of the Giant Apes to grapple it to keep it prone, since that cuts it damage output by about 40% and lets you switch to killing other stone giants quickly. But don't do that if it's already almost dead (say, has taken 80+ damage).

Yea, I think Banishment on the cleric is better than bless but it's a big resource for little gain when I believe I'm already consistently beating the giants without any hp loss. Resource expenditure = level 2, level 3 and level 4 spell slots, 4 sorcery points. Bless was to help the apes hit the giants and help the casters with the important spells keep from losing concentration if the giants decided to throw a rock at them.

I had the rogue be polymorphed in my example. Though all said it may have been slightly more effective and efficient to polymorph the cleric and let the rogue attack. I was trying to preempt enemy strategies like taking an OA for a chance to throw a rock at a caster. If that rock hits and concentration is lost the fight suddenly turns into a much larger resource drain.

I'm also not sure that trying to pile all your melee on a single giant will be a more effective strategy. You'll take the first giant down much faster, but leaving 2 giants with no real OA threat does leave those 2 giants to have free reign on the casters. It's not obvious that's a good tactical tradeoff.

[MaxWilson]

I'm also not sure that trying to pile all your melee on a single giant will be a more effective strategy. You'll take the first giant down much faster, but leaving 2 giants with no real OA threat does leave those 2 giants to have free reign on the casters. It's not obvious that's a good tactical tradeoff.

I think we need a map to answer this question, because it really depends on who is where and how far away.

[Frogreaver]

I think we need a map to answer this question, because it really depends on who is where and how far away.

I play mostly Theatre of the Mind. A map would actually detract from the scenario for me

[Nhorianscum]

Yea, I think Banishment on the cleric is better than bless but it's a big resource for little gain when I believe I'm already consistently beating the giants without any hp loss. Resource expenditure = level 2, level 3 and level 4 spell slots, 4 sorcery points. Bless was to help the apes hit the giants and help the casters with the important spells keep from losing concentration if the giants decided to throw a rock at them.

I had the rogue be polymorphed in my example. Though all said it may have been slightly more effective and efficient to polymorph the cleric and let the rogue attack. I was trying to preempt enemy strategies like taking an OA for a chance to throw a rock at a caster. If that rock hits and concentration is lost the fight suddenly turns into a much larger resource drain.

I'm also not sure that trying to pile all your melee on a single giant will be a more effective strategy. You'll take the first giant down much faster, but leaving 2 giants with no real OA threat does leave those 2 giants to have free reign on the casters. It's not obvious that's a good tactical tradeoff.

Just gonna leave this here...

https://www.themonstersknow.com/giant-tactics/

(Stone giant tactics can be really fun)

[MaxWilson]

I play mostly Theatre of the Mind. A map would actually detract from the scenario for me

You don't ever use maps when you TotM?

[Unoriginal]

Just gonna leave this here...

https://www.themonstersknow.com/giant-tactics/

(Stone giant tactics can be really fun)

The Monsters Know What They're Doing have some good insight, but also pretty weird assumptions.


I mean, saying that Hill Giants are "barely sentient"...

[Frogreaver]

You don't ever use maps when you TotM?

Not battlemaps.

[Nhorianscum]

The Monsters Know What They're Doing have some good insight, but also pretty weird assumptions.


I mean, saying that Hill Giants are "barely sentient"...

It's a nice base to kinda discuss "what the giant do" from.

[OgataiKhan]

Druid casts Conjure Animals for 8 CR 1/4 beasts with the intention of sending them to tank and attack, then moves away and attempts to hide or dodges next turn. Maintaining concentration on Conjure Animals will make the fight significantly easier. Resummon them when needed.

Sorcerer twins Banishment on the giants or Haste on the Barb and Rogue, enabling the Rogue to deal Sneak Attack damage twice per round. Banishment should be the stronger option here. Assuming a DC of 15 the giants have a 25% chance of passing the save, or a 6.25% chance of neither being affected.

If at least one giant passed the save, the Cleric attempts to Banish it. Otherwise they cast Sanctuary on the Sorcerer.

Chances are the fight is now 13 vs 1, an easy win.

[Valmark]

Sorcerer twins Banishment on the giants or Haste on the Barb and Rogue, enabling the Rogue to deal Sneak Attack damage twice per round.

How is Haste enabling a second Sneak Attack?

Anyway for me... Think I'd have the cleric pop Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon. Subsequent turns cast whatever you need, probably damage spells/cantrips.

My first thoughts for the sorcerer are to Twin Polymorph and boost their damage and hp (I think they have a better damage anyway). Follow with damage spells. Can't remember the cost in Sorcery points, but if one of the two gets knocked out of Polymorph then go with Hypnotic Pattern (Sculpted) or maybe Tasha's. If only one remains just wail on them.

Druid casts Conjure Animals. Again when animals start dwindling too much to keep the giants still. Otherwise, damage spells/cantrips.

[OgataiKhan]

How is Haste enabling a second Sneak Attack?

You attack with the Haste action, deal Sneak Attack damage, then you ready your regular action to attack just after your turn ends for a second Sneak Attack in the same round.

[da newt]

Nhorianscum - is your Sorc casting a 5th level spell at 7th lvl (or did I read your post wrong)? "I'm lazy, the sorc can do this (or similar) 3x a day" I don't follow. The Sorc should have 1 4th lvl spell slot only, right?


Sorc casts twin Banishment: 56% 2 banished, 6% none are banished, 37% one is banished. (IF the Cleric banishes too, if one or both make save: 14% one is left, 1.5% 2 are left.) IF you do succeed in banishing 2, what have you accomplished beyond banishing one? I mean, for 1 minute you only have to deal with only 1 giant, but then when the spell ends, you have 2 giants to deal with at the same time again. (or you spend a few rounds taking out one, and then run for a few rounds before the others return and try run you down and extract their revenge, but say 7 rounds of dashing will get you a pretty good head start)


Max - yup, if you tilt and rotate your 30' cube you can get max distance in 3d to 52' (but my DM would never go for it).

I agree - 2 apes vs 1 giant would only be superior IF the giants were not trying to target the casters, but with the HUGE Giant Ape's 10' reach you ought to be able to position to keep 2 giants in melee (Op Att threat and DISADV to throw rocks) but focus all attacks on one to eliminate it first, vice divide your attacks between two increasing the number of attacks they can make before going down, right? Maybe even grapple. My point being a 1v1 Ape v giant (with no outside help) is a even fight, but if 2 apes all attack one giant (and just eat the attacks of the other), then tag team the remaining giant, it's much better for team Ape.

[Frogreaver]

Nhorianscum - is your Sorc casting a 5th level spell at 7th lvl (or did I read your post wrong)? "I'm lazy, the sorc can do this (or similar) 3x a day" I don't follow. The Sorc should have 1 4th lvl spell slot only, right?


Sorc casts twin Banishment: 56% 2 banished, 6% none are banished, 37% one is banished. (IF the Cleric banishes too, if one or both make save: 14% one is left, 1.5% 2 are left.) IF you do succeed in banishing 2, what have you accomplished beyond banishing one? I mean, for 1 minute you only have to deal with only 1 giant, but then when the spell ends, you have 2 giants to deal with at the same time again. (or you spend a few rounds taking out one, and then run for a few rounds before the others return and try run you down and extract their revenge, but say 7 rounds of dashing will get you a pretty good head start)


Max - yup, if you tilt and rotate your 30' cube you can get max distance in 3d to 52' (but my DM would never go for it).

I agree - 2 apes vs 1 giant would only be superior IF the giants were not trying to target the casters, but with the HUGE Giant Ape's 10' reach you ought to be able to position to keep 2 giants in melee (Op Att threat and DISADV to throw rocks) but focus all attacks on one to eliminate it first, vice divide your attacks between two increasing the number of attacks they can make before going down, right? Maybe even grapple. My point being a 1v1 Ape v giant (with no outside help) is a even fight, but if 2 apes all attack one giant (and just eat the attacks of the other), then tag team the remaining giant, it's much better for team Ape.

Banishing 1 or 2 works. If one is banished then cleric banishes the other. If 2 are banished then cleric banishes the other when they reappear. I still donÂ’t see this being more effective than the polymorph setup though.

If the apes can move between 2 giants and thatÂ’s a big if by my understanding of initial setup then I agree thatÂ’s the optimal placement. IÂ’d don2 apes between the same 2 giants and summoned wolves on the other.

[MaxWilson]

Not battlemaps.

How do you efficiently predict whether e.g. the giants are going to be in range to melee attack the sorcerer if he retreats 30' and drops prone? Do you just ask the DM ad hoc? I find that works well in small/simple fights, but in complex fights where kiting is involved, diagrams are the most efficient way I know to convey information between DM and player.

In any case, whether the information is conveyed via map or not, we need answers on those types of questions to judge the right tactics.

I agree - 2 apes vs 1 giant would only be superior IF the giants were not trying to target the casters, but with the HUGE Giant Ape's 10' reach you ought to be able to position to keep 2 giants in melee (Op Att threat and DISADV to throw rocks) but focus all attacks on one to eliminate it first, vice divide your attacks between two increasing the number of attacks they can make before going down, right? Maybe even grapple. My point being a 1v1 Ape v giant (with no outside help) is a even fight, but if 2 apes all attack one giant (and just eat the attacks of the other), then tag team the remaining giant, it's much better for team Ape.

I agree, focus fire is best in this situation. Position yourself as best you can to delay / opportunity attack any giants who try to ignore you and go for the spellcasters, but your top priority is turning 3 giants into 2 giants ASAP.

[Nhorianscum]

Nhorianscum - is your Sorc casting a 5th level spell at 7th lvl (or did I read your post wrong)? "I'm lazy, the sorc can do this (or similar) 3x a day" I don't follow. The Sorc should have 1 4th lvl spell slot only, right?


Sorc casts twin Banishment: 56% 2 banished, 6% none are banished, 37% one is banished. (IF the Cleric banishes too, if one or both make save: 14% one is left, 1.5% 2 are left.) IF you do succeed in banishing 2, what have you accomplished beyond banishing one? I mean, for 1 minute you only have to deal with only 1 giant, but then when the spell ends, you have 2 giants to deal with at the same time again. (or you spend a few rounds taking out one, and then run for a few rounds before the others return and try run you down and extract their revenge, but say 7 rounds of dashing will get you a pretty good head start)


Max - yup, if you tilt and rotate your 30' cube you can get max distance in 3d to 52' (but my DM would never go for it).

I agree - 2 apes vs 1 giant would only be superior IF the giants were not trying to target the casters, but with the HUGE Giant Ape's 10' reach you ought to be able to position to keep 2 giants in melee (Op Att threat and DISADV to throw rocks) but focus all attacks on one to eliminate it first, vice divide your attacks between two increasing the number of attacks they can make before going down, right? Maybe even grapple. My point being a 1v1 Ape v giant (with no outside help) is a even fight, but if 2 apes all attack one giant (and just eat the attacks of the other), then tag team the remaining giant, it's much better for team Ape.

Yes, sorcerers can do that by just forcibly creating a 5th level slot with font of magic. Generally we just bank a 5th immediately after a SR and reload SP off "dead" slots. It's a known bit of play optimization.

Heightened, bane boosted, 5th level banish is just "giants go bye bye". There's a chance that one saves but it's laughably small.

As for 2 over 1, action economy. Giants hit hard and with 2 in play they really can just randomly off a player or just end concentration with a well tossed rock. With 1 banished there is significant risk of player death. With 2 banished there is negligable risk.

Giant dies because rouge+barb+whatever can just dumpster it in 2 rounds. The other 2 die because we have 8 rounds to just play jigsaw. That said stone giants are smart and generally know when to talk or run. It's a nonfight.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Banishing 1 or 2 works. If one is banished then cleric banishes the other. If 2 are banished then cleric banishes the other when they reappear. I still donÂ’t see this being more effective than the polymorph setup though.

If the apes can move between 2 giants and thatÂ’s a big if by my understanding of initial setup then I agree thatÂ’s the optimal placement. IÂ’d don2 apes between the same 2 giants and summoned wolves on the other.

Interesting that both good strategies revolve around what the (often maligned) Sorc does with the 4th (or 5th) level spell slot; I agree by the way.
The only thing I'd add is that with the Polymorph option I generally wait a round or 2 for a couple of reasons: 1) Whatever character(s) are being polymorphed have more options and generally do more damage in normal form than in ape,potentially taking down enemies faster 2) It frees the sorcerer up to directly deal damage sooner, say fireball or some other 3rd level spell in this case, potentially taking down enemies faster, and 3) You can never 100% predict which of the party will be targeted or hit badly, so it allows you to Polymorph character(s) that most need the hp.

[MaxWilson]

Interesting that both good strategies revolve around what the (often maligned) Sorc does with the 4th (or 5th) level spell slot; I agree by the way.
The only thing I'd add is that with the Polymorph option I generally wait a round or 2 for a couple of reasons: 1) Whatever character(s) are being polymorphed have more options and generally do more damage in normal form than in ape,potentially taking down enemies faster 2) It frees the sorcerer up to directly deal damage sooner, say fireball or some other 3rd level spell in this case, potentially taking down enemies faster, and 3) You can never 100% predict which of the party will be targeted or hit badly, so it allows you to Polymorph character(s) that most need the hp.

Sorc is only maligned relative to wizard and sometimes bard, especially at high levels. Not surprising to see a level 7 sorc being valuable in a party where there's no bard or wizard. Level 7 is also a sweet spot for sorcs because Twin Polymorph just came online.

[Nhorianscum]

Interesting that both good strategies revolve around what the (often maligned) Sorc does with the 4th (or 5th) level spell slot; I agree by the way.
The only thing I'd add is that with the Polymorph option I generally wait a round or 2 for a couple of reasons: 1) Whatever character(s) are being polymorphed have more options and generally do more damage in normal form than in ape,potentially taking down enemies faster 2) It frees the sorcerer up to directly deal damage sooner, say fireball or some other 3rd level spell in this case, potentially taking down enemies faster, and 3) You can never 100% predict which of the party will be targeted or hit badly, so it allows you to Polymorph character(s) that most need the hp.

Sorc is just the often-disputed-by-people-who-are-wrong king/queen of combat casting from level 7-12 even as an unoptimized base class.

Solid points on the polymorph are made and agreed with. It would be nice to see a heuristic for the enemies in threads like this.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Sorc is just the often-disputed-by-people-who-are-wrong king/queen of combat casting from level 7-12 even as an unoptimized base class.

Solid points on the polymorph are made and agreed with. It would be nice to see a heuristic for the enemies in threads like this.

I'll take that challenge. I'd say the only small chance the Giants have (assuming good play from the party) is to win initiative (at least vs. the Sorcerer). They have 40' of movement and 15' of reach, so if the front line is 40' away with luck they can advance and kill the biggest threat (D. Sorc) in round 1. Then move on to the next squishiest biggest threat. That is likely the Cleric, particularly if he/she gets off a Banishment. Disrupting concentration or better yet outright killing the Cleric is the next goal. The giants need to be willing to risk being hit by opportunity attacks in order to concentrate damage on 1 character at a time to have any chance.
If the sorcerer wins initiative using one of the decent strategies already discussed, then backs up and goes prone or behind a tree I see no winning strategy for the Giants.

[Nhorianscum]

I'll take that challenge. I'd say the only small chance the Giants have (assuming good play from the party) is to win initiative (at least vs. the Sorcerer). They have 40' of movement and 15' of reach, so if the front line is 40' away with luck they can advance and kill the biggest threat (D. Sorc) in round 1. Then move on to the next squishiest biggest threat. That is likely the Cleric, particularly if he/she gets off a Banishment. Disrupting concentration or better yet outright killing the Cleric is the next goal. The giants need to be willing to risk being hit by opportunity attacks in order to concentrate damage on 1 character at a time to have any chance.
If the sorcerer wins initiative using one of the decent strategies already discussed, then backs up and goes prone or behind a tree I see no winning strategy for the Giants.

I sorta agree and disagree with the above, the giants are smart but... not quite smart enough to read our character sheets so by the time they go "oh sheets and blankets that thing can double down on 4th level spells" they're probably in a very rough spot.

I guess my take would be...

By showing up at the opening of the canyon and forgoing their giant rock from hiding approach I sorta feel like the giants are by default going to lose the fight.

So let's change that, assuming they win initiative I sorta feel like they're best choice is to just full move back and then hide in the rocky terrain. With luck this might allow them to just instablick an overly zealous PC or two from full into "actually dead". Moving forward sorta denies any chance at survival for the giants.

If the casters move up then they really can just outright die to big rocks, if anyone else moves up the giants can just curb stomp that PC into paste and then book it to reset this scenario in their favor with their 240 ft range.

Assuming the giants lose initiative and are in some sort of suicide pact where their only goal is to mangle PC's I'd just have them running past the barb taking OA's to gangstomp PC's into "just dead" until one side dies. If this routine is broken by a caster out of stomping range the giant(s) just unconditionally hurl rocks till that caster goes down.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I sorta agree and disagree with the above, the giants are smart but... not quite smart enough to read our character sheets so by the time they go "oh sheets and blankets that thing can double down on 4th level spells" they're probably in a very rough spot.

I guess my take would be...

By showing up at the opening of the canyon and forgoing their giant rock from hiding approach I sorta feel like the giants are by default going to lose the fight.

So let's change that, assuming they win initiative I sorta feel like they're best choice is to just full move back and then hide in the rocky terrain. With luck this might allow them to just instablick an overly zealous PC or two from full into "actually dead". Moving forward sorta denies any chance at survival for the giants.

If the casters move up then they really can just outright die to big rocks, if anyone else moves up the giants can just curb stomp that PC into paste and then book it to reset this scenario in their favor with their 240 ft range.

Assuming the giants lose initiative and are in some sort of suicide pact where their only goal is to mangle PC's I'd just have them running past the barb taking OA's to gangstomp PC's into "just dead" until one side dies. If this routine is broken by a caster out of stomping range the giant(s) just unconditionally hurl rocks till that caster goes down.

I'm aware there was a whole lot of DM metagaming in what I wrote and I'd likely never just do this. However, maybe the Giants have encountered humanoids before and are able to work out that the biggest threats are probably going to be the casters in the second row. In that case as a more fair DM I could fairly just roll a dice to see which one they try and off first.

I did read the hide thing and figured that was how they got to within 40' in the first place before detection. Obviously it would be better if they were able to hide well enough that the group passed them by and they were able to directly attack the rear (perhaps with surprise). In that situation the battle turns into more of a coin flip, as 1 or more characters are likely downed before they can even act.

I had thought about the Giants backing up, and I agree it could work, but relies on a mistake by 1 or more PCs. Also, the most likely dead PC in that scenario is the Barb who is probably the least valuable and most replacable (by Polymorph), meaning the Giants still likely lose.

[da newt]

Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?

[Nhorianscum]

Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?

This is a fun concept for a series and I've enjoyed it. As is the current situation is pretty solved.

As a deadly encounter triple stone giants is actually pretty rough.

My critique is that the terrain for some enemies is really relevant and it felt like the choice here had the giants going from their cap of "potentially campain ending" to "it's sorcin time".

Similarly a heuristic for the enemies would be good to have.

If we make this a running thing I'd like to have the "winning" plan rolled out as a bit of a story to close out each thread.

@5eNeedsDarkSun: For clarity I did enjoy your post and agree with the concept. The giants are just in a really awkward spot both spatially and with regards to the objective.

[ThatoneGuy84]

I mean, assuming you simply want to beat the encounter and get away.
Twin banishment
Cleric casts banishment on 3rd giant.
Your no longer trapped, giving you time to get out of the box, set up the battlefield in a more suiting manor if you want to, or leave completely (LoLing the whole walk away)

Assuming we skip this options (cause that's to easy)


Do the trees provide cover? Partial cover? The rogue can hide behind them so I'll assume they are at least going to grant partial cover for the Sorc, Druid, Cleric. Increasing the effective AC they have very rocks.

Barbarian is out main front line, but someone need to go with him, Clerics the best option because he doesnt have much to do in this fight.

Initiative order is (no polymorph no banishment in this scene)
Sorc goes first, Twin haste Barb and Rogue and steps behind tree and lays down (partial cover + disadvantage)
Barb - Bonus action rage, run in attacking recklessly. Let's be real, this is pretty much all he will be doing.
Rogue - he will be skirting in and out of hiding, hopeful giving himself advantage while utilizing SS to hit hard on the main Giant the barb is attacking (hopefully with GWM and reckless himself)
Since they have a net +10 Dmg per attack.
Druid will be casting - Wall of fire, separating the 2 giants from the main giant target, (ringed wall if you can manage to cut 2 off with it, fire facing away from your Barbarian. Then lays down behind a tree.
Cleric Casts Guardian of Faith, somewhere Near the wall, but between the giant that we are focusing fire on, and the other giants to punish them more for coming closer.

Round 2, casters with concentration spells will spend 1/2 movement getting up from behind tree. Peak and shoot cantrips, always returning to prone behind trees. (this will be the job they do for most the combat) - unless giants break thru wall of fire. Then druid will swap tactic to Conjure animals to provide more meat shields.

Cleric will now cast spirit guardians, punishing the Giants more if they get closer to him, he has now joined the Barb completely in front line fighting, forcing dmg on the nearly dead giant that's the initial target.

Since the Cleric doesnt have a tonne of dmg, his job at this point is to take the dodge action or heal the Barbarian when needed. His dmg dealers are up and running for the time being.

Assuming 20 stat, and recklessing with GWM/SS advantage, no magic weapons (roll needs 14+ with advantage or higher to hit each attack)
Barb can output 2d6 or 1d12 + 17 x 3 per round
Rouge can output 1d6 +15 x 2 per round + 4d6 sneak.
Cleric is putting in 20 straight dmg for 3 rounds
+ 3d8 (save for half) after round 2
Wall is initially 5d8 (save for half) then druid is cantrip locked for 2d8 (produce flame)
Sorc is locked Cantrips (quicken for 2 if hes feeling spicy)
This will make for a bit of a resource heavy encounter this way, but the win will be satisfying. (Also I never seen a Sorc take banishment in my life LOL)

[Asisreo1]

My first question: is this balanced?

Yes, yet it's still deadly. From this alone, I predict we'll be able to win with a reasonable degree of certainty, though the swing of dice can still cause a loss.

The party's encounter exp for deadly equals 8500 exp and their adventuring day exp is 25000.

The giants have an adjusted exp score of 17,400. This means it's a decent challenge but it isn't necessarily overwhelming.

So, I'd say this fight is fair. No need to fret on that front.

[Asisreo1]

Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?

Very good read. Wasn't able to contribute this time, unfortunately.

For the next one (or the one after), my suggestion would be to change some things up. Maybe next encounter is "hard" but the enemy forces have such good positioning and buffs that it still provides a challenge. Or maybe I should come up with one...hmm...

[MaxWilson]

Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?

I like it. I like it even more when people run scenarios in detail, because for me my favorite stuff to learn is the tricky little stuff (like Readying your Hypnotic Pattern to hit more giants), and I don't tend to learn that stuff without detail. For example, potentially in this scenario, we could have bought more rounds to kill giants by stationing a wolf in the right place on the map where the giant (1) has to treat it as difficult terrain, and (2) cannot stop on its square, and is therefore "forced" to attack the wolf instead of Dashing up to a sorcerer and braining him. We didn't get to see that because we just talked high-level intentions instead of how things actually play out.

Nevertheless I did enjoy it and learned some things. Wouldn't mind doing more of these, I just think it's better practice when posters actually run the combat before posting, which means they need enough detail to do so if they want to. (Detail about starting positions, monster behavior/tactics***, what spells are available, which allies are "under your control" for this scenario and which ones you just have to work around, etc.)

*** Yes, monster tactics is not normally something players can know any more than you can know your chess opponent's tactics, but the way you deal in a discussion like this with that is by practicing against several possible variations on what they COULD do, and finding which tactics are strongest against you so you can try to steer monsters into using different, weaker tactics.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This is a fun concept for a series and I've enjoyed it. As is the current situation is pretty solved.

As a deadly encounter triple stone giants is actually pretty rough.

My critique is that the terrain for some enemies is really relevant and it felt like the choice here had the giants going from their cap of "potentially campain ending" to "it's sorcin time".

Similarly a heuristic for the enemies would be good to have.

If we make this a running thing I'd like to have the "winning" plan rolled out as a bit of a story to close out each thread.

@5eNeedsDarkSun: For clarity I did enjoy your post and agree with the concept. The giants are just in a really awkward spot both spatially and with regards to the objective.

I'm left thinking that there are 3 critical factors largely out of the control of the players (2 in control of the DM) that can move this encounter from the dangerous but manageable category to likely TPK.
1) The initial setup: It would be reasonable to allow the Giants to hide using their advantage and potentially earn Surprise in an ambush.

2) How much the DM concentrates attacks on the right characters early on in the battle.

3) The initiative roll of the Giants: arguably the most important roll of the encounter.

If all 3 of these things swing in favor of the Giants they get 2 rounds of attacks first. The Sorc and Cleric never get to act and one of the other 3 could be in bad shape by the time the party can react.
As a DM I'm reminded that both sides can over or under perform based largely on how the encounter starts and by how intelligent you play the monsters.