OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

How does the Order know that Xykon has Serini's diary?



And the Order doesn't (or at least shouldn't) trust Serini. If you are right that they know Xykon has her diary, that's one reason. If they don't know that, her attacking them is another.

Haley mentions that O-Chul told them when Girard's recording is busy showing off how much Girard was a paranoid, spiteful hypocrite.

[Vikenlugaid]

She told them that she knows who they are, and they told her that they're on her side. So it seems reasonable for the Order to believe that Serini already knows these things.



We know that this information might stop Serini in her tracks, but how would the Order know? They have no idea why she is attacking them. I don't think it we can reasonably expect the Order to have figured out what is motivating Serini's attack.

Imagine you're going to meet someone whom you know only by description. You think of them as a potential friend, and certainly not as a potential enemy. But when you go to meet them they attack you. If it were me in those circumstances, I don't think I could do much better than shout stuff like "please stop!", "I'm not your enemy!", "why are you doing this?", etc. I dunno. It's not a perfect analogy. But I think it makes sense for the Order to be pretty baffled about everything that's happening.

They have destroyed 2 gates, and going to meet the last gate defender, if thet didn't even think of the posibility that she could have something to say for that matter, and they should have well prepared answers for that...

How does the Order know that Xykon has Serini's diary?



And the Order doesn't (or at least shouldn't) trust Serini. If you are right that they know Xykon has her diary, that's one reason. If they don't know that, her attacking them is another.

1- I don't remember how, but they do.

2- Yes, the Order shouldn't trust Serini blindly (none should do that with none), the more reason why saying "we are on your side" is absurd without explaining which side are they, when they don't even know which side is her.

[Liquor Box]

They have destroyed 2 gates, and going to meet the last gate defender, if thet didn't even think of the posibility that she could have something to say for that matter, and they should have well prepared answers for that...

Why would they think that Serini knows that they destroyed 2 gates? We don't even know that she does.

2- Yes, the Order shouldn't trust Serini blindly (none should do that with none), the more reason why saying "we are on your side" is absurd without explaining which side are they, when they don't even know which side is her.

Right, well that wraps up your earlier question of why they wouldn't want Serini's help.

[Hurkyl]

Why would they think that Serini knows that they destroyed 2 gates? We don't even know that she does.

Right. She's got O-Chul dead to rights, but other than that we can only be sure she knew the "gates were winking out". Even her comment about "You fools had four shots to try to stop Xykon" seems increasingly likely to be ranting at her former party members than the protagonist faction.

[Liquor Box]

Right. She's got O-Chul dead to rights, but other than that we can only be sure she knew the "gates were winking out". Even her comment about "You fools had four shots to try to stop Xykon" seems increasingly likely to be ranting at her former party members than the protagonist faction.

At first I thought she probably knew as much about the other gates destruction as she did about Soon's. But I think there's been a few hints that she doesn't know much about the Order other than they tried to give her sendings.

[Vikenlugaid]

Why would they think that Serini knows that they destroyed 2 gates? We don't even know that she does.



Right, well that wraps up your earlier question of why they wouldn't want Serini's help.

1- why wouldn't they think of it? The other gate defenders they met before (shapphire guard) knew that they had destroyed Dorukan's gate, the logical assumption is that another gate defender could know that too, they should at least be prepared for that likely scenario.

2- No, they need any help they can get, that's not wanting, is needing. Of course Durkon doesn't trust Redcloak and still wouldn't reject his help if it happened. And Serini is far more trustworthy than the main villain.

[Hurkyl]

The word 'trust' has been thrown around a lot. I just wanted to make a reminder that trust isn't enough -- what precisely you trust someone to do matters.

If someone is completely trustworthy -- but the thing you trust them to do is to work against your interests... well, that's not someone you want to help out, is it?

[Liquor Box]

1- why wouldn't they think of it? The other gate defenders they met before (shapphire guard) knew that they had destroyed Dorukan's gate, the logical assumption is that another gate defender could know that too, they should at least be prepared for that likely scenario.

One other, who told them that they found out by investigating.

2- No, they need any help they can get, that's not wanting, is needing. Of course Durkon doesn't trust Redcloak and still wouldn't reject his help if it happened. And Serini is far more trustworthy than the main villain.

Why would the Order trust Serini and more than Serini would trust them? Serini possibly knows that they had a hand in the gate's destruction. They possibly know that Serini gave Xykon the diary that led to him finding the gates. The only difference is that Serini attacked the Order.

The word 'trust' has been thrown around a lot. I just wanted to make a reminder that trust isn't enough -- what precisely you trust someone to do matters.

If someone is completely trustworthy -- but the thing you trust them to do is to work against your interests... well, that's not someone you want to help out, is it?

I completely agree. I'm just not using that degree of nuance in some threads of the conversation because I want to avoid sidetracks.

[Vikenlugaid]

One other, who told them that they found out by investigating.



Why would the Order trust Serini and more than Serini would trust them? Serini possibly knows that they had a hand in the gate's destruction. They possibly know that Serini gave Xykon the diary that led to him finding the gates. The only difference is that Serini attacked the Order.

1- Not just one, the only one they have met. And don't you think their mission is important enough to be prepared for that likely scenario? Are you saying that they shouldn't be prepared for anything that is not a 100% certainty. Like I said, the logical assumption is that a gate defender knows about the gates destructions, they totally must be prepared for that.
They didn't know if Serini was alive, they still tried to contact her, why not? Do you think that sendings were absurd too? Cause they didn't know for sure that she was alive, but they still tried to be prepared for that, which is the smart thing to do, be prepared for any posibility, specially for the likely ones.

2- again, who said that? Why are you constantly puting words in my mouth that I haven't said?
I litterally said that the order shouldn't blindly trust Serini. When all of this is explained then we would see if they trust her or not, but before that, it's absurd to trust someone they don't really know.

But the help? Of course they need it. Like they would have needed Girard's help even if he tried to kill them (thinking they were paladins) in the dessert, Roy then litterally said that he was hoping G was alive, and that they are less safe with Girard dead.

[Liquor Box]

1- Not just one, the only one they have met. And don't you think their mission is important enough to be prepared for that likely scenario? Are you saying that they shouldn't be prepared for anything that is not a 100% certainty. Like I said, the logical assumption is that a gate defender knows about the gates destructions, they totally must be prepared for that.
They didn't know if Serini was alive, they still tried to contact her, why not? Do you think that sendings were absurd too? Cause they didn't know for sure that she was alive, but they still tried to be prepared for that, which is the smart thing to do, be prepared for any posibility, specially for the likely ones.

The likely ones? Sorry, I find your suggestion that the Order should have predicted that Serini was alive, would attack them, could be stopped by a few pre-prepared phrases, and have guessed enough of Serini's paranoia to know what phrases were a bit of a stretch. The more you talk about it, the less likely it seems.

As previously noted by me and another poster, despite you knowing a lot of stuff the Order doesn't, you haven't been able to think of anything the Order could have said that was any better than what she did say. They had less than a minute, you've had more than a day.

2- again, who said that? Why are you constantly puting words in my mouth that I haven't said?
I litterally said that the order shouldn't blindly trust Serini. When all of this is explained then we would see if they trust her or not, but before that, it's absurd to trust someone they don't really know.

But the help? Of course they need it. Like they would have needed Girard's help even if he tried to kill them (thinking they were paladins) in the dessert, Roy then litterally said that he was hoping G was alive, and that they are less safe with Girard dead.

Why do you think the Order needs help from Serini more than Serini needs help from the Order?

[Vikenlugaid]

The likely ones? Sorry, I find your suggestion that the Order should have predicted that Serini was alive, would attack them, could be stopped by a few pre-prepared phrases, and have guessed enough of Serini's paranoia to know what phrases were a bit of a stretch. The more you talk about it, the less likely it seems.

As previously noted by me and another poster, despite you knowing a lot of stuff the Order doesn't, you haven't been able to think of anything the Order could have said that was any better than what she did say. They had less than a minute, you've had more than a day.



Why do you think the Order needs help from Serini more than Serini needs help from the Order?

1- The suggestion that Serini knows about the destruction of the other gates and might be hostile ar them EXACTLY like it happened with the Sapphire guard, the only other gate defenders they have met... Is a stretch? Wow.

2- {scrubbed}

[Silent Wrangler]

I had one realization: dimensional stone prohibits teleporting through it to cheese the dungeon. But! The line trap teleports tresspassers to fake dungeon! How the heck does it do that?! It's inside the stone! And fake dungeon itself is made of that stone! Just... How?!

[Peelee]

How does the Order know that Xykon has Serini's diary?

O-Chul told them.

[dancrilis]

Why do you think the Order needs help from Serini more than Serini needs help from the Order?

I don't think either of them need the others help at all.

The Order's actions prior to Serini's involvement alerted Redcloak to the fact that someone is falsely marking doors, and their next action was going to be to alert Xykon to a teleport misdirection.
The Order are actively undermining her defences (they even mentioned this when discussing their plan to ambush Xykon - panel 3) - that is not help she needs, if she wanted to undermine her defences she could likely do it herself.

Serini's actions have isolated The Order from their paladin allies, seperated their party, ran down there resources and incapacitated some of their members - again that is not help they need, if they wanted to do that they could likely achieve it would her.

Ultimately they have different goals:
Serini: Protect Gate.
Order: Defeat Xykon.

Serini would likely like Xykon defeated and the Order would likely like the Gate protected, but the Order are willing to risk the Gate's defences to defeat Xykon and Serini is willing to allow Xykon to win providing the Gate is protected.

I had one realization: dimensional stone prohibits teleporting through it to cheese the dungeon. But! The line trap teleports tresspassers to fake dungeon! How the heck does it do that?! It's inside the stone! And fake dungeon itself is made of that stone! Just... How?!

Panel 9 indicates that it only stops teleportation when the rock is in the way and there is no reason to assume that teleportation has to travel in a straight line, the rock does not seem to be there to prevent teleportation (most teleportation needs you to know where you are teleporting too) it is there to prevent easy movement through the walls.

[danielxcutter]

I had one realization: dimensional stone prohibits teleporting through it to cheese the dungeon. But! The line trap teleports tresspassers to fake dungeon! How the heck does it do that?! It's inside the stone! And fake dungeon itself is made of that stone! Just... How?!

There's less than a foot of space before the line traps. I imagine there's a light shell of multidimensional rock on the front, normal stone just around the trap, and then more multidimensional stone behind it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini would not have lifted a finger to interfere with Xykon if he had captured Soon's Gate - she sees protecting her gate from destruction as her job, she does not see stopping Xykon as her job.

I find that analysis to be sound.

Though by far my favorite apotheosis is the one god from pathfinder who just got drunk, took a drunken bet to attempt to become a god, and then succeeded. And also had no idea how he did it after he sobered up.

OK, +1 to Pathfinder for that.

Serini Toormuck! We're here to discuss your long distance sending rates. We noticed you don't pick up sendings, and given your remote location we can guess it's to avoid roaming charges. Sign up with V-rizon, and save up to 60% on all telepathic long distance communication!

+ many. Those roaming charges are kinda steep!

She told them that she knows who they are, and they told her that they're on her side. So it seems reasonable for the Order to believe that Serini already knows these things.

Or that she knows more things that they need to know to beat Xykon.

They have no idea why she is attacking them. I don't think it we can reasonably expect the Order to have figured out what is motivating Serini's attack.

Haley's theme since they found her seems to be based on this point.

But I think it makes sense for the Order to be pretty baffled about everything that's happening.

Yes, and it's very human to be bound by your own assumptions.

The Nothern Gods know that if the destroy the world Hel wins - and they seem to not want that.

Not sure that's true. Loki and Thor feel that way, it seems. The others? Given how the votes went, I'd say they are stuck inside their own stovepipes and are willing to try the next world - they know hell from waaaaaaaay back. Millions of worlds back ... they can put up with her and deal with her.

The Southern Gods likely don't care about Hel but are still a 'no' vote even after losing Azure City.

Yeah.

The Western Gods we know little about but might have voted 'yes' because of the recent gate activity - and if they found out that the last Gate was safe might change the vote.

Isn't there a no backsies rule, or is that only for the Northern Pantheon?

Xykon winning might save everyone.

Brilliant job channeling Serini Toormuck there.

Presumably all the northern gods know about the Bet. In which case them being deadlocked seems foolish because it will be their pantheon being dominated by Hel in the next world created due to the dwarves soul influx.
This seems to be plot error

I disagree, it's not a certainty that she'll dominate anyone any more than Odin dominates the Northern deities now and here's why I suggest that. In her own words:

So, by all means parcel out the spirits of humans and other races amongst the seventeen of you while I welcome ten million dwarves or more. Such an influx of resources could well render me more powerful than Grandfather Odin himself, if saying so wouldn't be too immodest

She's projecting that, or speculating on that. All seventeen others can do as Thor and Loki have done in the past, and found some loopholes to reduce the number of souls she gets ... but she's still pretty sure she'll get a substantial boost in power.

Haley mentions that O-Chul told them when Girard's recording is busy showing off how much Girard was a paranoid, spiteful hypocrite.

Aye.

The likely ones? Sorry, I find your suggestion that the Order should have predicted that Serini was alive, would attack them, could be stopped by a few pre-prepared phrases, and have guessed enough of Serini's paranoia to know what phrases were a bit of a stretch.

Yeah.

They had less than a minute, you've had more than a day.

The Order is reacting to a reality that is different from their assumptions ... about Serini and much else.

Why do you think the Order needs help from Serini more than Serini needs help from the Order?

I'll answer for why I do; with Serini on side Redcloak, Oona and Greyview have to deal with a much tougher party/combat than Order vs Team Evil as it stands. She has local terrain and fauna knowledge, and she's got some nasty tricks up her sleeve that may, for example, neutralize parts of Xykon's defense team ... but that's me projecting forward to a tactical scenario if the Order finds a way to get Serini onside. So it's a bit of speculation, all said and done.

I don't think either of them need the others help at all.

IMO, they both need each other's help, but do not as yet grasp what form that help can be in.

The Order are actively undermining her defences

Out of ignorance, not out of opposition to Serini's aims of preserving that gate.

Ultimately they have different goals:
Serini: Protect Gate.
Order: Defeat Xykon.

Sort of. Defeating Xykon can still include protecting the gate ... from him.

Serini would likely like Xykon defeated and the Order would likely like the Gate protected, but the Order are willing to risk the Gate's defences to defeat Xykon and Serini is willing to allow Xykon to win providing the Gate is protected.

I do not believe the bolded part to be true. Roy wants to save the world and he knows that the gate falling ends the world.

[danielxcutter]

Roy literally made the decision to not go further in because that'd risk compromising the defenses even further. Bypassing the first trap was a complete accident, and even though I believe she's more or less given up on so much as entertaining the notion that Xykon can be defeated there's no way in the Nine Hells that was how she was like when she first made Kraagor's Tomb.

[bunsen_h]

I had one realization: dimensional stone prohibits teleporting through it to cheese the dungeon. But! The line trap teleports tresspassers to fake dungeon! How the heck does it do that?! It's inside the stone! And fake dungeon itself is made of that stone! Just... How?!

I don't believe that the trap uses any sort of multi-planar effect such as teleportation or dimension door. I think that it's an effect using the multidimensional nature of the stone. The dungeon consists of segments that are voids within the stone, which exist in parallel in higher-dimensional space, connected together through those higher dimensions. The trap affects how the segments are connected together. Ignore the trap line and segment A is connected to segment B; you walk along the hallway and end up in the monster-filled dungeon. Disable the trap and segment A becomes connected to segment C; you walk along the hallway and end up in the secret back-area space. The concept is similar to what happens in Heinlein's short story "-- And He Build a Crooked House".

[danielxcutter]

I don't believe that the trap uses any sort of multi-planar effect such as teleportation or dimension door. I think that it's an effect using the multidimensional nature of the stone. The dungeon consists of segments that are voids within the stone, which exist in parallel in higher-dimensional space, connected together through those higher dimensions. The trap affects how the segments are connected together. Ignore the trap line and segment A is connected to segment B; you walk along the hallway and end up in the monster-filled dungeon. Disable the trap and segment A becomes connected to segment C; you walk along the hallway and end up in the secret back-area space. The concept is similar to what happens in Heinlein's short story "-- And He Build a Crooked House".

I'm 100% sure that "multidimensional" only means it blocks off planar travel, which both teleportation and incorporeality involve in a way. "This is still fantasy", remember?

[RatElemental]

maybe the dungeons are dug out of the back of Serini's back area and so the teleport trap doesn't have to send you through to stone to get there, it just vaults you forward a few hundred feet.

[bunsen_h]

I'm 100% sure that "multidimensional" only means it blocks off planar travel, which both teleportation and incorporeality involve in a way. "This is still fantasy", remember?

What mechanism would have extremely high-level characters transported dozens of times without their even noticing, let alone saving against?

[Bacon Elemental]

What mechanism would have extremely high-level characters transported dozens of times without their even noticing, let alone saving against?

Teleportation Circle. No save, so hard to notice that the spell itself calls out that you may need to mark it to stop people accidentally teleporting themself. Clearly this is a linear version that works continuously rather than all at once.

[Peelee]

What mechanism would have extremely high-level characters transported dozens of times without their even noticing, let alone saving against?

Teleportation Circle with the entrance and exit looking identical fits the bill pretty perfectly, actually. Very few changes (circle on floor to a "wall", disabling a permanent one being significantly shorter than 10 minutes) gets you pretty much exactly what's in the strip.

[bunsen_h]

Teleportation Circle. No save, so hard to notice that the spell itself calls out that you may need to mark it to stop people accidentally teleporting themself. Clearly this is a linear version that works continuously rather than all at once.

What about the saving throw? Teleportation Circle is supposed to behave like Greater Teleport, which in turn behaves like Teleport, for which a save negates the effect.

[Peelee]

What about the saving throw? Teleportation Circle is supposed to behave like Greater Teleport, which in turn behaves like Teleport, for which a save negates the effect.

It's effectively being treated as "cast on self" for anyone who steps in it, so no, no saving throw.

[Bacon Elemental]

What about the saving throw? Teleportation Circle is supposed to behave like Greater Teleport, which in turn behaves like Teleport, for which a save negates the effect.

It is not actually possible to save against Teleport and SR does not apply, because the spell only allows willing creatures to be taken. Saves in Teleport are only for if you try to grab something that someone else is holding and teleport away with it, in which case said object gets a save and its SR applies.

Meanwhile Teleport Circle just teleports anyone who steps into it, even accidental (And hence unwilling) subjects.

[pyrefiend]

1- The suggestion that Serini knows about the destruction of the other gates and might be hostile ar them EXACTLY like it happened with the Sapphire guard, the only other gate defenders they have met... Is a stretch? Wow.

It doesn't seem similar at all to me. The Order hadn't had any contact with the Sapphire Guard before they were attacked, but they have contacted Serini. And the Sapphire Guard's attack was just a pretense to make a job offer, which clearly isn't what's happening here.

Say you're Haley, and you're thinking the following thoughts:

"If Serini is alive, she might know that we destroyed a Gate to stop Xykon from getting it. But she also knows that we're trying to save the world, and that me and my team are trying to help her defend the Gate. Given that, what are the odds that Serini decides that (1) Serini decides not work with us, (2) she also decides that we are a threat to the Gate, and (3) she feels so certain that she's planning to attack us rather than respond to any of our Sendings?"

For my part, I think I would think that the odds are low. Like, really low. I don't think it would occur to me to even ask, and I sort of doubt I'm alone. Was it a possibility proposed on the forum before we learned about Serini's motivations?

[Hurkyl]

What mechanism would have extremely high-level characters transported dozens of times without their even noticing, let alone saving against?

I think it's more like the mechanism of the "Gate" spell rather than the "Teleport" spell; i.e. rather than instantaneous transmission, it's a portal that links two different places on the prime material plane. Or maybe those dungeons really are on other planes, who knows.

For example, in #1223, Roy is able to lean through the trap, with just his head and upper body passing to the other side.

[Hurkyl]

For my part, I think I would think that the odds are low. Like, really low. I don't think it would occur to me to even ask, and I sort of doubt I'm alone. Was it a possibility proposed on the forum before we learned about Serini's motivations?

I can't say it being proposed explicitly, but the MacGuffin's protectors attacking the protagonists who seek it out is such an utterly standard trope that it wouldn't have even occurred to me to question it.

It's somewhat amazing that there is so much forum dialog questioning it. I wonder if the issue is that the Giant actually fleshed out the motivations beyond a simple "I'm the guardian and you're seeking it out".

[danielxcutter]

I can't say it being proposed explicitly, but the MacGuffin's protectors attacking the protagonists who seek it out is such an utterly standard trope that it wouldn't have even occurred to me to question it.

It's somewhat amazing that there is so much forum dialog questioning it. I wonder if the issue is that the Giant actually fleshed out the motivations beyond a simple "I'm the guardian and you're seeking it out".

Why the hell would the Order expect that? They've been to precisely three Gates. Two had already fallen when the Order got there, and the only one they actually met the defenders for are still their allies. Moreover, the macguffin guardians usually attack the protagonists because the protagonists want it for one reason or another. The Order has actively avoided going in further to find the Gate.