OOTS #1276 - The Discussion Thread

[brian 333]

Isn't that the same thing?

Eugene is dead. His current status is 'not alive, not corporeal.' His current home plane is 'outside the prime material.'

He is in the afterlife. The part that sucks, obviously, but still, the afterlife.

[Ruck]

Eugene is dead. His current status is 'not alive, not corporeal.' His current home plane is 'outside the prime material.'

He is in the afterlife. The part that sucks, obviously, but still, the afterlife.

Yeah, I was gonna say something like this. He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife.

The waiting room is still part of the doctor's office.

[hamishspence]

Eugene is dead. His current status is 'not alive, not corporeal.' His current home plane is 'outside the prime material.'

He is in the afterlife. The part that sucks, obviously, but still, the afterlife.

Some people's afterlives come with "home plane - the prime material" - the souls of worshippers of Fharlanghn and Vecna for example, in the Greyhawk-verse, don't migrate to anywhere when their bodies die, but remain in places their deities are strongly associated with. Those of Fharlanghn, for example, might congregate at crossroads, for he is the deity of travel.

[Tubercular Ox]

Biggest Baddest Bunch of Monsters is behind only one cross-over.

Now, see, my first impression is that Backstage was one big super-dungeon, probably because of this comic, but you've opened my eyes. If the first conclusion is that "all" of the cross-overs go to the same superdungeon, do you stop looking?

I'm still worried it's an unacceptable risk that someone would find the perfect crossover on the first go. But maybe the perfect crossover can only be reached from backstage so you lose interest in finding it without risking someone finding it from the front. Making every crossover different enough to require disarming a different way could really kill the desire to disarm every crossover from the wrong side. Unless you have a Quinton who's mapping things precisely and the extra tunnel sticks out.

It would be worth the effort of being Lawful Good just so I can have an excuse for not figuring stuff like this out.

[Tzardok]

Eugene is dead. His current status is 'not alive, not corporeal.' His current home plane is 'outside the prime material.'

He is in the afterlife. The part that sucks, obviously, but still, the afterlife.

Yeah, I was gonna say something like this. He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife.

The waiting room is still part of the doctor's office.

Not really. If everyone who was dead automatically was in the afterlife, being a ghost would be an afterlife. An afterlife is the place that your soul spends (its slice of) eternity; that doesn't include transitionary areas where souls aren't meant to linger. It's pretty common in mythology (I can't name examples for obvious reasons) for a judgment or waiting area to be located between the mortal world and and the afterlife proper. If we continue Korvin's analogy:

Not really. It (the cloud place) is like being in the parking lot outside of the grocery store, but not in the store (Celestia) itself. Gene relates to Roy that he can't get in due to the blood oath.
Stuck in the Parking lot, as it were, unable to get into the store until {something} happens.

then the afterlife is the interior of buildings, and Eugene is stuck on the streets. See also Roy being able to remember what happened in the clouds, but not what happened in Celestia, when someone who's resurected doesn't remember what happened in the afterlife. Ergo, cloud space ≠ afterlife.

[littlebum2002]

An afterlife is the place that your soul spends (its slice of) eternity;

What if -hear me out- the afterlife is the place you go after your life ends?

[Peelee]

If everyone who was dead automatically was in the afterlife

Nobody made this claim, though. Brian333 was even quite specific as Eugene being incorporeal and having a home plane not be the material plane.

[Psyren]

The Giant is on record saying that in the afterlife one cannot grow or change. This seems important to this topic because several posters appear to hold out hopes that Eugene will.

One of our plant-based posters could probably find the exact quote.

Yeah, I was gonna say something like this. He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife.

The waiting room is still part of the doctor's office.

I'd say there are two options:

1) Eugene is currently in an afterlife. He's not in HIS afterlife. Therefore, his afterlife might still change based on his actions, many of which have at the very least been pretty antithetical to Law.

2) Nothing he does after dying matters - only his actions while alive count.

I personally find the latter dubious given the amount of agency/impact oathspirits (especially spellcasting ones?) appear to be able to have on the living world, but it's still a possibility.

[dancrilis]

What if -hear me out- the afterlife is the place you go after your life ends?

Not according to Eugene, panel 2.

This may explain why he can do things like Detect Scrying, and cover himself with an illusion, and presumedly use whatever spell he had that allowed him to foreshadow the future.

The exact limits of what Eugene can and cannot do I don't think have been clarified - but he might be able to get away with more then if he has passed through the gates.

[Tzardok]

What if -hear me out- the afterlife is the place you go after your life ends?

Exactly. It's the place you go after your life ends. Nobody goes to cloudy realm, everybody goes through it. It is, to be pithy, a between, not a place.

Edit: Besides, etymologically speaking, afterlife is the life that comes after death, not what happens after life.

Nobody made this claim, though. Brian333 was even quite specific as Eugene being incorporeal and having a home plane not be the material plane.

Ruck did. He said: "He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife."

[Psyren]

Not according to Eugene, panel 2.

Good citation.

I'll point out though that OotS petitioners appear able to retain their feats and skills on the Mountain, at least to a degree, hence Horace and Roy easily mopping the floor with the evil invading party.

[Peelee]

Ruck did. He said: "He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife."

Fair, i overlooked that.

Good citation.

I'll point out though that OotS petitioners appear able to retain their feats and skills on the Mountain, at least to a degree, hence Horace and Roy easily mopping the floor with the evil invading party.

Agreed on both. His being a spellcaster doesn't affect anything. His relationship to Roy via the sword does. And even then, the level of agency he can exert on the material plane is limited to thr same level that anyone in the afterlives can do if you contact them with the proper spell. He just doesn't need that external spell.

[brian 333]

Actually, a ghost is in its afterlife. It was alive, now it isn't. How much more plain could it be?

Outsiders which were never alive are not in their afterlife. Outsiders which were alive, but had their creature type changed to outsider are in their afterlife if they died.
Undead are a weird exception: they are neither alive nor dead. So, in the old days, I drew the line between corporeal and incorporeal undead. Templates came along and messed that up. Used to be, undead couldn't earn exp, now they can.
My new dividing line is, are they PCs or NPCs. PC undead have a significant chance to become alive again, while NPCs don't outside of plot-related exceptions.

[Tzardok]

Actually, a ghost is in its afterlife. It was alive, now it isn't. How much more plain could it be?

Uhm, no? The whole point of ghosts (at least, the kind that appear in D&D) is that they are barred from the afterlife by unfinished business. See also Good Deeds Gone Unpunished pg. 10: "All the ghost stories my dad told me had the ghost poofing away after they fulfilled whatever unfinished business they had in the mortal world." [..] "No, it means you'll go to the Elf Afterlife."

[Ruck]

Ruck did. He said: "He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife."

Fair, i overlooked that.

Hence why I said "pretty much," because I didn't want to write out a bunch of exceptions for every ghost wandering the Material Plane or whatever.

[Precure]

Seems like a weird rule to set when the LG afterlife is structured around getting bored of earthly desires and eventually striving towards enlightenment. If that's not growth or change, what is?

Not to mention the Lich-killer sword move Roy learned there.

[Jasdoif]

One of our plant-based posters could probably find the exact quote.

....Normally I'd spoiler this volume of text, but I feel like this warrants being right there on the page/screen:

And everything there is better. No disease, no death, no pain and suffering. You get to have infinite one night stands, win debates, have people fawn over, or, if you like, pursue spiritual enlightenment in a perfect body that will not know the ravages of time.

Except, of course, that you will never improve at any skill you know, never have a say in what happens in the world, never have children if you haven't already, never talk to anyone with a different point of view, never experience any real risk, never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you. Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

And that's the Lawful Good afterlife. Roy is talking about the entire world here, many of whom might be headed for less cushy situations.

And as far as talking to people with a different point of view, doesn't Eugene offer counter proof that statement? Supposing that there was a Eugne-clone identical in all respects to Roy's father, except that there wasn't the unfulfilled Blood Oath barring him from heaven. Would not Eugene-clone and Roy have plenty to disagree about, despite the identical entry in the alignment section of their character sheet?

Is Eugene in Celestia yet?

Doesn't this prove that if you are good-aligned you can leave your afterlife and meet other people of good alignment?

Nah.

If you need an explanation, presume that there is a zone of the Cloud Plane around the entrance to each Good plane that souls might be able to visit occasionally (with permission), but can't leave. You'll notice he basically exits the elevator, shakes Roy's hand, and then leaves. Horace could meet Eugene there, but we're talking about a very specific set of circumstances that is leaving Eugene wandering around the Cloud Plane that are not generally applicable to most people.

Yes, well, that's why I can't stand it when people need me to lock down specifics about how things work. The comic made the important point—that no one just wants to give up on life because they think a nice afterlife is waiting for them—but that's not good enough for some people. They need me to justify it because they, personally, wouldn't feel the same way as a given character if they were in the same position. And then more people jump in and pick at my first answer, arguing with me about this aspect or what that extrapolates to, until I answer some off-the-cuff explanation that will never matter to the story and everyone flips the **** out over it, claiming that I ruined the story forever for them. It happens every time; remember when I "ruined" Tarquin by saying that he's probably not as good a military strategist as he makes himself out to be?

If you don't want to see how the sausage is made, stop coming to the sausage factory and demanding that the sausage maker explain himself.

Here's what I really want to impress on all of you: I do not care how the afterlife works in my story. The cosmology, the details, the moral implications. It doesn't matter. It's all made up, and I am more than happy to handwave it because there is no story benefit to wasting time being more detailed. Vanilla D&D, as filtered through my memory? Sure, good enough. Next! The only reason there even is an afterlife in this world is because the planes and resurrection and the gods are all such a strong part of the D&D experience. I am not telling a story about the implications of the world's cosmology; I am telling a story about Roy Greenhilt, and his motivations and heroism. The afterlife was useful in that regard by allowing me to show some of his journey instead of telling it, and by allowing me to kill off my main character while still having him be part of the comic for the very long period that Don't Split the Party was running. Those are the absolute limits of my interest in exploring the concept of an afterlife, because it has no other real relevance. If I wasn't using the D&D afterlife (or a shade thereof)—and I hadn't accidentally introduced Eugene as a ghost so early in the comic's run, before the plot was nailed down—I wouldn't be using any afterlife. People would die, and that would be the end, forever. Because yes, as fictional concepts go, the afterlife is one that reduces dramatic tension in exactly the manner that spawned this thread.

[brian 333]

Actually, a ghost is in its afterlife. It was alive, now it isn't. How much more plain could it be?

Outsiders which were never alive are not in their afterlife. Outsiders which were alive, but had their creature type changed to outsider are in their afterlife if they died.
Undead are a weird exception: they are neither alive nor dead. So, in the old days, I drew the line between corporeal and incorporeal undead. Templates came along and messed that up. Used to be, undead couldn't earn exp, now they can.
My new dividing line is, are they PCs or NPCs. PC undead have a significant chance to become alive again, while NPCs don't outside of plot-related exceptions.

Uhm, no? The whole point of ghosts (at least, the kind that appear in D&D) is that they are barred from the afterlife by unfinished business. See also Good Deeds Gone Unpunished pg. 10: "All the ghost stories my dad told me had the ghost poofing away after they fulfilled whatever unfinished business they had in the mortal world." [..] "No, it means you'll go to the Elf Afterlife."

I hope I fixed that for you. The bolded part is the important point which appears to have been missed in the first parsing, which already covered the rebuttal to the (I thought obvious) joke.

Not to mention the Lich-killer sword move Roy learned there.

He was very specifically told he'd have to practice it in the material world or he'd forget it. As he forgot virtually everything beyond the gates except a warm fuzzy feeling.

[Darth Paul]

The more I see Eugene, the closer I come to actively hating him.

[Precure]

He was very specifically told he'd have to practice it in the material world or he'd forget it. As he forgot virtually everything beyond the gates except a warm fuzzy feeling.

He still learned it there.

[brian 333]

He still learned it there.

Yes, but the important point is, a being in the afterlife forgets what is learned. Whether in life or after, the totality of one's being is shed over time.

At this point, nothing Eugene 'learns' matters, because by the time he makes it to the Inn Of Infinite One Night Stands he will have forgotten it.

For better or worse, Eugene will be judged for what he was in life. What happens on the cloud stays on the cloud.

[Beni-Kujaku]

He still learned it there.

As the Giant once said, "he didn't learn it, he learned of it. He still needs to spend a feat, or he cannot use it."

[Psepha]

I've seen a few comments theorising that Roy has spotted that it wasn't really Julia and is playing along for some reason. I'm not sure about that - isn't Roy historically pretty bad at spotting ruses? Spotting duplicity and deviousness aren't really his forté - historically he's had to rely on other party members for that, and it tends to be the Chaotic party members - one of the biggest challenges that Haley has ever faced was getting him to understand the shell game ploy at Azure City, it was Elan who worked out that their happy ending was an illusion, and Belkar repeatedly told him that Durkula was deceiving them, etc. As Haley remarked, "it's frustrating how Lawful you people are!"

The only notable example I can think of where he figured out a ruse for himself was when Tarquin was impersonating Thog, but that was because it landed in his very particular sphere of expertise - combat style. So I don't think he's going to work this out what he's seen so far - he's going to need a direct reveal, more information, or assistance from the more deception-savvy party members.

[Ruck]

I've seen a few comments theorising that Roy has spotted that it wasn't really Julia and is playing along for some reason. I'm not sure about that - isn't Roy historically pretty bad at spotting ruses? Spotting duplicity and deviousness aren't really his forté - historically he's had to rely on other party members for that, and it tends to be the Chaotic party members - one of the biggest challenges that Haley has ever faced was getting him to understand the shell game ploy at Azure City, it was Elan who worked out that their happy ending was an illusion, and Belkar repeatedly told him that Durkula was deceiving them, etc. As Haley remarked, "it's frustrating how Lawful you people are!"

The only notable example I can think of where he figured out a ruse for himself was when Tarquin was impersonating Thog, but that was because it landed in his very particular sphere of expertise - combat style. So I don't think he's going to work this out what he's seen so far - he's going to need a direct reveal, more information, or assistance from the more deception-savvy party members.

I agree generally, but one could argue that Roy's own family is also one of his fields of expertise.

For me the more relevant point is sonicsuns' observation about Roy making comments about the Gate and dungeon that he knows aren't correct. I could see him just feeding Eugene useless information. But I can also see other reasons for him doing that.

I don't think there's a whole lot to support the idea that Roy knows it's Eugene, but I think there's enough that I'm not ruling it out.

[Fish]

I should just point out that there’s a bit of blue sky in between “Roy knows that’s definitely not Julia” and “Roy knows it’s definitely Eugene.”

[Wintermoot]

I should just point out that there’s a bit of blue sky in between “Roy knows that’s definitely not Julia” and “Roy knows it’s definitely Eugene.”

I don't know. I don't think there's THAT much blue sky as you seem to think there is.

If Roy is able to figure out it isn't Julia, he's naturally going to try to figure out who it is. And it has to be someone who:

a> knows him and his sister well enough to put on a passable subterfuge
b> knows about the blood oath and how Eugene's communication looks and feels
c> would have any reason to commit this subterfuge.

Sabine, for example, might meet a and c, but has no way of meeting b.

Redcloak/Xykon might have some reason to meet c, but don't meet a or b in any fashion

Tarquin, again, might have some reason to meet c, but doesn't come anywhere close to a or b.

Really, if he passes the bar of "wait, this isn't Julia at all." I don't see how there's any question he would immediately go to "Oh, its Eugene." So I, personally, don't see any blue sky space there. Perhaps the slightest sliver if Roy is having a dense day.

[Fish]

I don't know. I don't think there's THAT much blue sky as you seem to think there is.

Roy knows Sabine is a shapeshifter and that the IFCC has an interest in Vaarsuvius; he knows Redcloak is a spellcaster. He has encountered illusions and phantasms in previous dungeons. He has had his friend’s body serve as a host for an evil vampire. Furthermore, Julia has been previously captured by villains and forced to send him a message. Roy doesn’t have enough knowledge of magic to know who is capable of what.

I don’t know where you get the confidence to say “Roy can only expect it to be his father,” full stop.

[Doug Lampert]

I don't know. I don't think there's THAT much blue sky as you seem to think there is.

If Roy is able to figure out it isn't Julia, he's naturally going to try to figure out who it is. And it has to be someone who:

a> knows him and his sister well enough to put on a passable subterfuge
b> knows about the blood oath and how Eugene's communication looks and feels
c> would have any reason to commit this subterfuge.

Sabine, for example, might meet a and c, but has no way of meeting b.

Redcloak/Xykon might have some reason to meet c, but don't meet a or b in any fashion

Tarquin, again, might have some reason to meet c, but doesn't come anywhere close to a or b.

Really, if he passes the bar of "wait, this isn't Julia at all." I don't see how there's any question he would immediately go to "Oh, its Eugene." So I, personally, don't see any blue sky space there. Perhaps the slightest sliver if Roy is having a dense day.

Personality wise, we've also got, Oh, there you are Dad. I didn't see you hiding in my sister's entire personality like that.

Roy has noticed that even when dumping on Roy, "Julia" is doing so in a way reminiscent of their father.

Edited to add: That said, Roy may not have noticed, and if he has noticed, he may well have not figured out that it's his father.

Roy doesn't normally hide what he thinks, and I think he'd be quite angry if he knew that Eugene was imitating Julia.

[Wintermoot]

Roy knows Sabine is a shapeshifter and that the IFCC has an interest in Vaarsuvius; he knows Redcloak is a spellcaster. He has encountered illusions and phantasms in previous dungeons. He has had his friend’s body serve as a host for an evil vampire. Furthermore, Julia has been previously captured by villains and forced to send him a message.

I don’t know where you get the confidence to say “Roy can only expect it to be his father,” full stop.

well I explained where I got the "confidence" in the rest of my post that you cut out of your quote. So, I guess we're done then. *shrug*

[Fish]

well I explained where I got the "confidence" in the rest of my post that you cut out of your quote. So, I guess we're done then. *shrug*

Yes, I suppose if you are going to attribute perfect knowledge to Roy of all logical possibilities, including what everyone’s motivations and knowledge are, I guess we are done. And, as I pointed out, Julia has been compromised before and forced to send a message.