[Idea] Substituting Material Components with Crystals

[Larkas]

So, a discussion arose in another thread about how to make keeping track of material components feasible (i.e.: meaningful without being a chore). Which just goes on to show you that a useful discussion might arise in the most unlikely of threads.
We were basically discussing a solution based on "crystals", in which standard material components would be substituted by the "solidified essence' of... Something. I first thought about crystals corresponding to each of the inner planes, which would bring us to six crystal varieties, but eggynack brought up the idea of a crystal per terrain type, which corresponds to a total of eight crystal varieties and has a nice symmetry to the number of spell schools.

Spoiler: The discussion so far

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Lastly, mundane characters are naturally subject to numerous logistical challenges regarding equipment weight, ammunition, etc., and it isn't terribly unfair to subject others to the same standard.

The problem is that you're not keeping track of one thing (say, arrows), but several. If there was a standardized material component used by every single spell (for example, small crystal shards called "mana shards"), that might be workable (even if less inspiring). Even a few different resources could be doable ("elemental mana shards"), but not the myriad materials we have in 3.X.

That's all in my opinion, of course.

EDIT: Hmmm, six flavors of mana shards along with the metamagic components presented by Grod might just do the trick.

Y'know, I actually think the magic component crystal method of doing this might be enough to maintain the integrity of this rule set without being horribly insane. You have eight separate varieties of magic crystals, each of which can be commonly and easily found in some regions of the world. Maybe tie it to the environment, with maybe deserts providing illusion (cause mirages), and maybe beach regions providing transmutation (cause tides mean a constant state of flux), and so on. You impose the arbitrary limit on crystals you can keep in one place, because having enough crystals of one type near you when you use magic will cause them to explode, cause magic. Let's set the limit at 99, or maybe 49, cause it has a classy RPG feel, but other setups will work as well. You could also have several varieties of crystal in some locations, or maybe in all locations, but presumably not all of them.

I think that solves most of the problems with the mechanic. You don't need to keep track of every component for every spell, cause there's only eight of them to keep track of, and notably, even less for something like a beguiler or focused specialist (this might be a little imbalancing, but meh, crazy elven generalist domain wizard is probably better anyway), which helps with the nerfing crap casters problem. The lower your spell versatility, the easier this is. There is no solo questing required, because these crystals flow like water wherever they're available. The arbitrary limit is a bit less arbitrary, owing to how arbitrary magic is already. Overall, I think that you'd be able to get a reasonably unannoying material component system out of the deal, and if you tweak it some, you'd probably get something like marginally increased balance.

Nah, I remembered it. Hence referring to it as the magic component crystal method, instead of being all like, "Hey, check out this completely new thing." I just thought the merits could use some elaboration. Also, I vaguely like coming up with environments that could support 'em. Like, maybe mountains for abjurations, cause they stand in the way of junk, and maybe freshwater regions for divination, cause scrying is so intimately connected with pools of fresh water.

Well, the eight basic terrain types in the Prime Material as presented in the DMG and MM might be a good place to look in that place. (Note that other supplements added more later.)
Aquatic, Desert, Hill, Forest, Marsh, Mountain, Plain, Underground.

Here's a tentative suggestion:

Spoiler

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Aquatic => Divination
Desert => Illusion
Hill => Conjuration
Forest => Transmutation
Marsh => Necromancy
Mountain => Abjuration
Plain => Evocation
Underground => Enchantment

Not the best, but eh. They also come in Cold/Temperate/Warm varieties, by the way, except for Underground which never really got that kind of expansion. It's just generally Dungeons/the Underdark.

I'm thinking that you could combine this with some kind of maximum crystal capacity and just replace the vancian system altogether. I'm feeling like this could be a good homebrew for replacing the generalist wizard with something else. I'm thinking full list caster with spell points split into eight pools. Have them be able to spend an hour to get up to their class level in appropriate crystals with a maximum limit of... 49 or 99 or something, to follow the earlier suggestion. That way you can have this guy who knows a whole lot of spells and can cast any of them spontaneously but is really limited by where he is. In a dungeon? Hope you like Enchantment!

Yeah, I think that might work.

Hmmm, that idea shows some promise. I confess I'd prefer not having the crystals tied to schools directly because, short of dual-school spells, you wouldn't need more than one type for each spell, which I think could be interesting... (But is it?) Even so, one crystal per terrain type seems interesting. Maybe roll (easy) Survival to find them, so anyone could do it?

I figure that you need to harvest them from the atmosphere in some fashion, perhaps using magic, except it's pretty easy to use. Thus, perhaps you'd basically have infinite access to particular types of magic when in relevant areas. That sounds kinda cool, actually, as it'd inform preparation in certain areas, and maybe incentivize the use of worse schools of magic sometimes (when you have infinite conjuration, then you'd just do what you do normally).

I also thought about "condensing" the stuff, but it'd be nice to have a market for the stuff. Maybe through some simple wondrous/alchemical item?That way, you could buy marsh crystals in a desert... But you'd have to pay a lot for it. How's that?

I suppose there are a few models that would support such a market. In the current model, presumably the entire market would be supported by transport price. You can't teleport them hyper-efficiently, because you can only move 99 crystal stacks at a time, and you'd probably be able to use teleportation for more money in different ways if the price is too low. Alternatively, you could apply some harvesting multiplier to each location, such that you can do this really fast in the right location, but really slow elsewhere, with possibly moderate speed in a third location. It's pretty tricky though, as I'd like these things to be basically free in the right place, to mimic the currently existent version.

Hmmm, that might work. What if each spellcaster had to gather his own crystals (at this point, it might be simpler to just call it essence), and could do so at a fixed rate/hour while meditating, depending on the terrain? For example, while in a mountain peak, a wizard could gather 8 mountains essence/hour and 6 hills essence/hour, but only 2 plains essence/hour. Some "nodes" (I'm thinking of something along the lines of Exalted's manses here) might even multiply the relevant essence's availability: a monastery might be built around a spot in the aforementioned mountain peak that enables the gathering of 16 mountains essence/hour for those who meditate there (but regular quantities of other kinds).

You could even go so far as making nodes that drain some essences for increased gains of another essence. In the above example, maybe you'd have to pay 2 plains essence for each hour you spent meditating in that monastery, but in return you could gather as much as 24 mountains essence/hour!

Some spells or items could also probably interact with that. Maybe a mana drain-like spell could strip a caster from some of his essences, while a hard-to-make alchemical item could store a small amount of one type of essence (of course, make it non-stackable).

Ehm, did I go too far?

When doing this you need to be careful that you're not nerfing the classes that aren't a problem. The elven generalist might be forced to use sub-optimal tactics outside of hills or the forest, but the warmage would be screwed anywhere but the plains. You'd probably want to give Tier-3 and below casters free Eschew Material Components. Possibly Tier-2 and below, since psion and ardent don't have components for their powers.

Hmmm, not necessarily, specially if the crystals/essences are not tied to a specific spell school. You could also give a class some multiplier for gathering the relevant materials. Is the Warmage is heavy on hills essence usage? Then give it a class feature that makes it so he can gather that essence at double the rate.

Yeah, those seem like reasonably nifty mechanics. It'd probably cause a need for more than 8 terrain types, so you could make use of some of the more specific versions, which seems neat.

Yeah, hadn't considered that one. Y'know, it'd actually make the game both more balanced in this sense, and possibly more robust overall, if we used a total crystal count instead of a count per crystal type. 500 is a reasonable starting number, set between the averages on the other two previous ones, though it's obviously open to change. You could even give classes more or less capacity as a balancing factor.

Total crystal count, hmmm? I like that. Hmmmm, maybe we should start a new thread to discuss that?

Please note that this discussion presupposes a couple of things: Eschew Materials doesn't exist (or is at least converted into a +1 metamagic feat), and costly (and unique; see Ice Assassin) material components are unchanged. Furthermore, this variant isn't incompatible with Metamagic Components.

So, without further ado, and to stop cluttering the other thread, let the discussion continue! A few questions to get us started:

1) Should each school of magic be intrinsically tied to a type of crystal?

2) Should wizard specialization by school be ditched in favor of a specialization by crystal type?

3) Should "gathering potential" be tied to class level? Should "crystal stock" be tied to character level?

PS: Come to think of it, this isn't all too different from Final Fantasy's treatment of crystals, specially regarding VII's and XIV's materia/Lifestream. So if you need inspiration to think about this variant, this might help.

[Gildedragon]

Please note that this discussion presupposes a couple of things: Eschew Materials doesn't exist (or is at least converted into a +1 metamagic feat), and costly (and unique; see Ice Assassin) material components are unchanged. Furthermore, this variant isn't incompatible with Metamagic Components.

So, without further ado, and to stop cluttering the other thread, let the discussion continue! A few questions to get us started:

1) Should each school of magic be intrinsically tied to a type of crystal?

2) Should wizard specialization by school be ditched in favor of a specialization by crystal type?

3) Should "gathering potential" be tied to class level? Should "crystal stock" be tied to character level?

1) maybe. there are a lot of ways it could be hashed (by subschool, descriptor, element, fluff...)
2) probably not; if so anyone is one feat (or two) away from being a generalist, with the benefits of specialization.
Alternative specializations are viable (CM talks about them IIRC) but tying the specialization to gear is a bit odd. You'd have to better define what is meant
3a) Depends on the mechanic used for gathering. I would recommend not: these things are gonna be market available I presume? If so, then commoners and experts are probably gonna be the main collectors.
3b) seems a bit odd but sure why not. I myself would be against it, but it can work.

[Doc_Maynot]

Probably make the crystal stock based on Caster Level/Magic Rating under the pretense that the 'mana crystals' must be maintained with near effortless magic on the part of the caster to be usable.
And make is scale/operate similar to the Packrat Feat?

Benefit: You may carry up to a maximum of 10(change to suit)/[caster] level [crystals]. This allows you to - assuming you retain access to your gear - [cast spells]. You must spend 8 hours shopping in town to replenish [these crystals].

I'd like the idea of each crystal being bound to a school, but that could have odd results with spells that have multiple schools at once.

[Larkas]

That's the thing, in my opinion, the stuff is better thought as a kind of "mana equivalent". It isn't exactly palpable (though there might be items/"materia" that could replenish the resource; see above), though it is limited. It isn't equipment. I know this can feel a little "video-gamey", but think of it as an "external power source" that is internalized.

Come to think of it, maybe even mundanes could use the resource to power (new) supernatural stuff (though they probably wouldn't care about the crystal's type; think colorless mana here). Likewise, psionics might use the crystals just as well, which could limit the availability of powers without changing the manifesting mechanics much.

Probably make the crystal stock based on Caster Level/Magic Rating under the pretense that the 'mana crystals' must be maintained with near effortless magic on the part of the caster to be usable.
And make is scale/operate similar to the Packrat Feat?

I'd like the idea of each crystal being bound to a school, but that could have odd results with spells that have multiple schools at once.

Hmmm, gear that can hold the crystals/essence. That might work too.

Regarding the crystal/school parallel, in my opinion it would be best if each spell specified, individually, which and how many crystals it needs for power. But is that feasible?

[Omoikane13]

Love this idea. I feel that perhaps if replacing the existing components, some sort of gp value per crystal would need to be established, and it would need to be low/high enough to not utterly break an economy. Much seems dependant on DM discretion, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
1) Be careful with it, for the reasons outlined in previous discussion. Maybe ease of access would prevent "mana screw"?
2) I'm gonna say no, especially if tied to terrain type. Although I feel that Magic: The Gathering's whole land system is starting to seem familiar.
No idea about 3, I suck at balance.

EDIT: Thinking about it, I'd adore an alternate system based around this, as mentioned in the above post. Like WOTC's armor / weapon crystals, but better.

[Doc_Maynot]

Hmmm, gear that can hold the crystals/essence. That might work too.

Regarding the crystal/school parallel, in my opinion it would be best if each spell specified, individually, which and how many crystals it needs for power. But is that feasible?

Perhaps partially scaling off of spell level (like 2 or 3 x spell level, Spell Level^2, or maybe even use the Spell Point Variant as a inspiration), and if a spell has multiple schools they can use one or the other, but has to use at least one of each?

[Alex12]

Hm. Since these crystals are essentially crystallized magical energy, it doesn't seem unreasonable that there could be other sources besides terrain.
Looking at Magic: the Gathering for inspiration, lands are obviously the most common source of mana, but there are plenty of other things (creatures, devices, spells, and the like) that generate mana. For example, I could easily see a no-cost Necromancy spell that extracts necromancy crystals out of freshly-dead corpses using their fading life energy or something, or a device that converts any kind of crystal placed into it into a transmutation crystal.

Dual-school spells are easy- you can spend a crystal of either school to pay for it. Like hybrid land costs in M:tG. Actually, Magic seems like it might make for a decent conceptual basis for this, with obvious adjustments for the increased number of colors schools.

As for the number of crystals you can carry, you need precise mechanics and consequences for what happens. Say if you've got more than X crystals of the same type within five feet of each other, or more than Y crystals of any sort within five feet of each other, they start to glow and hum ominously, and otherwise make it obvious that you've got too many (magic resonance overload, or something). So a mage wouldn't be in danger of accidentally exploding himself. Then, within, say, 1d4 rounds, they explode violently, with the power of the explosion being based on how much you've exceeded X or Y by. This might even open up some interesting tactics, using them as improvised explosives.

[Doc_Maynot]

As for the number of crystals you can carry, you need precise mechanics and consequences for what happens.

Related to this, the crystals should give off a magic aura of some sort, since they are magic building blocks and all.

[Alex12]

Related to this, the crystals should give off a magic aura of some sort, since they are magic building blocks and all.

Naturally. And, just to avoid penalizing low-Str spellcasters, make them have negligible weight. But you can't just eliminate the problem of magical resonance or whatever it is that means you can't have more than X crystals by sticking them in a bag of holding or something similar. Say that the opening of the extradimensional space still allows the resonance to propagate into the material.
Perhaps some skill or item would allow you to increase the number of crystals you can safely carry? Allows you to dampen or draw energy from the interactions so the threshold of explosive doom is higher?

[ace rooster]

This looks like a conservation of magic system I have been working on (not quite happy with it yet). I have been trying to justify why spellcasters charge 50 days worth of labour for a cantrip that takes 6 seconds when they make up over 1% of the population. It basically requires every spell to use either a material component that costs 10*sl*cl gp or burn xp equal to that amount divided by 12.5. What the component is is mostly irrelevant, except for some particular spells like resurrection and animate dead, and the value of most items is primarily determined by the magic power that can be derived from it. The introduction of crystals which could only be used for particular spell schools could be a really cool addition, giving DMs a way to tie different forms of magic to the setting, and reward players that try to fit the world fluff.

In this type of setting the crystals would appear no more magical than gold, completely containing the magic until it is released. A vault full of them would behave no different from a vault full of gold or art. Otherwise I would be building critical masses of crystals as soon as I got the chance.

[NichG]

What is the design goal of this, with respect to the kind of gameplay that it is trying to create?

[eggynack]

What is the design goal of this, with respect to the kind of gameplay that it is trying to create?

Well, there're a couple of things, I think. The primary design goal was somewhat increased balance, if I'm not mistaken, but right now, it feels a bit more like the motivation is increased variety in school usage. You have basically unlimited casting capacity of a particular spell school when you're in a specific region, and perhaps limited access to other schools. Thus, if you're hanging out in the plains (if that's what we end up using for evocation, by the list in the OP), then you might have an actual incentive to prepare some evocation, above and beyond what you normally would. A tertiary goal could be eliminating the silliness inherent in material component pouches, because they're really silly. It also feels like this might have more cohesive theming than the current joke based component model.

[dascarletm]

From a world design perspective this would influence societies based on regions in a whole new way. Planes dwelling societies might be more inclined to have a raiding culture, or be more militaristic in general.

[NichG]

Well, there're a couple of things, I think. The primary design goal was somewhat increased balance, if I'm not mistaken, but right now, it feels a bit more like the motivation is increased variety in school usage. You have basically unlimited casting capacity of a particular spell school when you're in a specific region, and perhaps limited access to other schools. Thus, if you're hanging out in the plains (if that's what we end up using for evocation, by the list in the OP), then you might have an actual incentive to prepare some evocation, above and beyond what you normally would. A tertiary goal could be eliminating the silliness inherent in material component pouches, because they're really silly. It also feels like this might have more cohesive theming than the current joke based component model.

Well I think one should separate these things out and pin it down.

As far as 'removing the silliness of...' then you could just get rid of cheap material components altogether. They don't do much in the system right now.

As far as 'balance', that poses a problem since broad strokes like this tend not to do anything about the imbalance of the magic system since that imbalance stems mostly from particular broken spells. So you'd have to do something very drastic to pursue that (which you could), but my guess is that people would get bent out of shape of the problems it'd pose to someone casting e.g. fireball or some other less-broken spell.

As far as promoting diversity in casting, that's an interesting take. I'd target that specifically with this design. What about, rather than making this about carrying around bags of crystals, all different terrains simply have a different set of ambient magical energies available to them, which casters usually tap into in order to make spellcasting easier. These different energies correspond to different schools or whatever, and basically whenever you're casting a spell that doesn't match an available energy in the surrounding terrain you have to sacrifice an additional spell slot of the same level (or two spell slots to cast in an 'opposed'/'drained' environment). In a highly rich terrain of a certain type, you'd have a 50% chance of not using up the spell slot when casting. Would that achieve the design goal?

[Slipperychicken]

But if we're using crystals as material components, how am I going to find excuses to throw tarts at people and eat live spiders in combat?

[Rijan_Sai]

But if we're using crystals as material components, how am I going to find excuses to throw tarts at people and eat live spiders in combat?

Why do you need an excuse for that? If it's what you enjoy doing, then I say go for it!

BTW, I enjoy this idea, and am interesting in seeing where it ends up!