What is V's gender

[The Extinguisher]

It bothers me that people are so image-obsessed that they believe anything presented in a comic requires justification.

The author does not have a responsibility to present the currently accepted social conventions as "true" in his fiction, and his failure to adhere to politically correct doctrine does not mean he advocates against it.

Role models should not be people you see on TV or in comics. They should be real people in the real world, not fantasy caricatures of what we ought to be.

The author has every right to create any character for any reason, and this choice should not be viewed as a statement of personal faith. This concept would quickly lead to cardboard cutout characters whose only contribution is to bore you to tears. (Oh, wait, that's what happened to Hollywood...)

Haley is not a role model for girls to emulate. She is a fantasy. She isn't real, and being unreal, she posesses traits real people do not. These traits exist for purposes devised by the author, and if they offend you you might consider this old saying:

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me."

Once upon a time it was a common saying. Back then we had far fewer insults. The message is clear, though:

"Words can hurt you only if you choose to let them!"

You are not a helpless victim at the mercy of verbal tormentors who must be curbed by social pressure. You are an active agent capable of removing the stings of your enemy by a simple shift in attitude.

Haley isn't perfect. You really don't want your children emulating her, but if you can find something positive to take away from her appearance in the comic, then good for you. But she is not required to conform to your ideas of what a "character like her" should be. The only requirement is that she conform to the author's intent so she can fulfill her part in the story the author wants to write.

The author can write whatever character they want unless they are the slightest bit progressive in which case they are obviously pandering to "social conventions"


This post was definitely written by someone who has never been on the recieving end of hate speech

[woweedd]

The author can write whatever character they want unless they are the slightest bit progressive in which case they are obviously pandering to "social conventions"


This post was definitely written by someone who has never been on the recieving end of hate speech

Yes! To re-iterate (And keep myself from getting last-paged:)

Bull. In the words of a wise man, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can make me think I deserved it." Words can leave far deeper scars, scars that do not heal. And who are you to demand that people just "buck up" and "Stop being hurt by them."? That's not how it works. Back to the subject of Haley, no, she' s not perfect ,and thank God for that. But her character has developed. Her bad traits have been justifiably, shown as bad, something she's grown past, as a Good character should. Especially given how much this very book has centered around people changing, what with vampires being defined by their inability to change or grow. Also, fictional characters can and should serve as role models. Who was it who said "Stories are only important for what they can teach us about the real world?" Oh, right, that would be one of the most successful fantasy authors of this decade, one Rich Burlew. Fiction ca, show us something to aspire to, characters who are better then any real person, and whom we can try to be like. Fictional characters can inspire us, whereas, as I think recent events will show, real people far too often let us down. And, more importantly, you can get out of this discussion with your victim-blaming "words can never hurt me" conckamine nonsense. Good day to you, sir.

[Peelee]

Once upon a time it was a common saying. Back then we had far fewer insults.

From what I've been able to tell, "back in the day" usually refers to a time when the speaker was either sheltered from the things they dislike currently, or did not have an understanding if the things they dislike currently.

No, back "then" there were not fewer insults, they just weren't directed at you (and possibly not used by you).

[brian 333]

The author can write whatever character they want unless they are the slightest bit progressive in which case they are obviously pandering to "social conventions"


This post was definitely written by someone who has never been on the recieving end of hate speech

This post was written by someone with no knowledge of my life, who assumes an unwarranted degree of moral superiority.

Hate speech is noise. I have endured it at a level none of the social justice warriors of today have ever dreamed. Back in my day, getting upset over hate speech could land you in jail.

I have been spit at and had objects hurled at me because of my skin color. I have had friends jailed because they reacted to insults. I have been denied employment and promotions because everyone knows people like me can't be electricians.

No, I know nothing of hate speech.

Except that it hurts a lot less than a bottle hurled from a crowd of screaming cowards.

Grow a thick skin. Words can only hurt you if you let them. More importantly, otherwise innocent words, or words uttered in ignorance, can be construed to be insults and can then hurt you if you go seeking them out. And once you begin to look for the hidden insults you find them everywhere: especially in the words of someone who challenges your beliefs.

[woweedd]

This post was written by someone with no knowledge of my life, who assumes an unwarranted degree of moral superiority.

Hate speech is noise. I have endured it at a level none of the social justice warriors of today have ever dreamed. Back in my day, getting upset over hate speech could land you in jail.

I have been spit at and had objects hurled at me because of my skin color. I have had friends jailed because they reacted to insults. I have been denied employment and promotions because everyone knows people like me can't be electricians.

No, I know nothing of hate speech.

Except that it hurts a lot less than a bottle hurled from a crowd of screaming cowards.

Grow a thick skin. Words can only hurt you if you let them. More importantly, otherwise innocent words, or words uttered in ignorance, can be construed to be insults and can then hurt you if you go seeking them out. And once you begin to look for the hidden insults you find them everywhere: especially in the words of someone who challenges your beliefs.

Just because you can grow a "thick skin" doesn't mean everyone can. Words mean things, and they still hurt, whether you want them to or not. You may have grown numb, but that's no reason for us to. Isn't the fact that people are speaking out against this bull a GOOD thing? we must keep on driving hate out, until it had no place in our society. Ignoring the problem won't fix it. also, you explicitly there were "less insults" in your day. You would know better then anyone that isn't true, and you said as much in this post. You grew numb to them, but that doesn't mean they weren't there. The fact that this generation isn't willing to just "take it" is a GOOD thing, my friend.

[CJG]

(Takes a swig of Metamucil) well, back in my day I’d just smack around someone who insulted me and yell even worse insults back. This newfangled idea of just not insulting people to begin with is a lot more pleasant and easier on the arthritis.

[woweedd]

(Takes a swig of Metamucil) well, back in my day I’d just smack around someone who insulted me and yell even worse insults back. This newfangled idea of just not insulting people to begin with is a lot more pleasant and easier on the arthritis.

As someone with Early-Onset Arthritis, I relate.

[The Extinguisher]

This post was written by someone with no knowledge of my life, who assumes an unwarranted degree of moral superiority.

Hate speech is noise. I have endured it at a level none of the social justice warriors of today have ever dreamed. Back in my day, getting upset over hate speech could land you in jail.

I have been spit at and had objects hurled at me because of my skin color. I have had friends jailed because they reacted to insults. I have been denied employment and promotions because everyone knows people like me can't be electricians.

No, I know nothing of hate speech.

Except that it hurts a lot less than a bottle hurled from a crowd of screaming cowards.

Grow a thick skin. Words can only hurt you if you let them. More importantly, otherwise innocent words, or words uttered in ignorance, can be construed to be insults and can then hurt you if you go seeking them out. And once you begin to look for the hidden insults you find them everywhere: especially in the words of someone who challenges your beliefs.

valid, i dont know your experiences. honestly your the first person ive talked to that has been through things like that and not understood how words can be violence, how they can do actual harm to people. Im not trying to deny your experience (sorry if that hurt you i will try to be better), but maybe you can do that same and not spit in the face of me and the people i know that have be tangibly hurt by other peoples speech.

sure, slurs and insults aren't going to literally hurt me like a bottle to the head does, but words terrify. words break me down until i feel like the only thing i am capable of doing is killing myself. words inspire hatred against me that inspires widespread, accepted physical violence against me.

[CJG]

As someone with Early-Onset Arthritis, I relate.

Folks getting way to worked up about other folks being nice.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Who has killed more beings to date? Via that metric (which is not the only metric to be sure) V eclipses Haley by quite a bit.

By that metric, Belkar outranks Roy. I think it's fair to say that a character's role in the party outside of combat matters more than their DPS when determining who's leading, and since Haley is the official second-in-command, she is unambiguously the leading woman of OOTS as long as the party isn't being lead by another woman.

Aside from that...I didn't see any arguments I thought would be interesting to counter before I stopped reading.

[brian 333]

valid, i dont know your experiences. honestly your the first person ive talked to that has been through things like that and not understood how words can be violence, how they can do actual harm to people. Im not trying to deny your experience (sorry if that hurt you i will try to be better), but maybe you can do that same and not spit in the face of me and the people i know that have be tangibly hurt by other peoples speech.

sure, slurs and insults aren't going to literally hurt me like a bottle to the head does, but words terrify. words break me down until i feel like the only thing i am capable of doing is killing myself. words inspire hatred against me that inspires widespread, accepted physical violence against me.

I understand how words can hurt. What I don't understand is why you let them.

We were actively taught to not take offense and certainly to not go looking for it. Words are only sounds. You give them meaning, and the meaning you give them allows them to affect you. For words to hurt you must:

1) give those words a meaning which belittles you
2) believe that meaning actually applies to you
3) and internalize those meanings in a way that affects your attitudes

Without those three steps, which you must perform independently of any intent or agency by anyone else, those words are just sound. Someone would have to scream them into your ear to cause you harm. Instead, you have been taught to create buzzwords with meanings supplied by others, and they have conditioned you to respond emotionally when those buzzwords are spoken.

I am strong. I am beautiful. I am master of the ship of my life, not a helpless passenger on the Titanic. I control my thoughts, attitudes, and feelings, not some random hater that is trying to control me with buzzwords. Call me weak, or ugly, or whatever you like: I know you're wrong. Your words are noise on the wind.

[KorvinStarmast]

By that metric, Belkar outranks Roy. I think it's fair to say that a character's role in the party outside of combat matters more than their DPS when determining who's leading, and since Haley is the official second-in-command, she is unambiguously the leading woman of OOTS as long as the party isn't being lead by another woman.

Aside from that...I didn't see any arguments I thought would be interesting to counter before I stopped reading.

Since you apparently didn't even read all of what you put in quotes for comprehension, I am not sure why you chose to reply. When you toss out some vague notion of 'who is more important' it is often useful to laydown the measurement criteria rather than your feeling or opinion. (which is what you offered regarding her role)

To put this into RPG context: spotlight sharing.
To follow up on a different RPG context: wizards are Tier 1 in the edition this was written against.

As to Haley's second in command role: she has both the Int and the Cha for that. Roy, a high Int fighter, seems also to have a decent to above average Cha score though that discussion has its own thread.

V has the int, not the cha
Elan has the Cha, not the Int
Belkar has neither, nor does he have the motivation.
Durkon likewise, though he could use Wisdom as a basis for leadership were he so moved, but he isn't.
Durkon's motive is his friendship with Roy; for most of the strip, he's more or less putting in time, waiting to learn when he can come home. For over well over 700 strips, it is clear that he has nothing better to do.

[CJG]

I understand how words can hurt. What I don't understand is why you let them.

We were actively taught to not take offense and certainly to not go looking for it. Words are only sounds. You give them meaning, and the meaning you give them allows them to affect you. For words to hurt you must:

1) give those words a meaning which belittles you
2) believe that meaning actually applies to you
3) and internalize those meanings in a way that affects your attitudes

Without those three steps, which you must perform independently of any intent or agency by anyone else, those words are just sound. Someone would have to scream them into your ear to cause you harm. Instead, you have been taught to create buzzwords with meanings supplied by others, and they have conditioned you to respond emotionally when those buzzwords are spoken.

I am strong. I am beautiful. I am master of the ship of my life, not a helpless passenger on the Titanic. I control my thoughts, attitudes, and feelings, not some random hater that is trying to control me with buzzwords. Call me weak, or ugly, or whatever you like: I know you're wrong. Your words are noise on the wind.

curious; how long did it take you to get to this place where you don’t let the words hurt. Be honest, and remember hurtful words from people you respected.

[The Extinguisher]

I understand how words can hurt. What I don't understand is why you let them.

We were actively taught to not take offense and certainly to not go looking for it. Words are only sounds. You give them meaning, and the meaning you give them allows them to affect you. For words to hurt you must:

1) give those words a meaning which belittles you
2) believe that meaning actually applies to you
3) and internalize those meanings in a way that affects your attitudes

Without those three steps, which you must perform independently of any intent or agency by anyone else, those words are just sound. Someone would have to scream them into your ear to cause you harm. Instead, you have been taught to create buzzwords with meanings supplied by others, and they have conditioned you to respond emotionally when those buzzwords are spoken.

I am strong. I am beautiful. I am master of the ship of my life, not a helpless passenger on the Titanic. I control my thoughts, attitudes, and feelings, not some random hater that is trying to control me with buzzwords. Call me weak, or ugly, or whatever you like: I know you're wrong. Your words are noise on the wind.

Cool cool so its my fault that bigots harass me and are normalizing harmful rhetoric against me. That certainly makes more sense than trying to stop them from doing that.

If someone punches you in the arm you dont have to let that hurt you its just neural sensation its up to you to decide if thats painful or not. Just get stronger arms

[woweedd]

Cool cool so its my fault that bigots harass me and are normalizing harmful rhetoric against me. That certainly makes more sense than trying to stop them from doing that.

If someone punches you in the arm you dont have to let that hurt you its just neural sensation its up to you to decide if thats painful or not. Just get stronger arms

Yes, this is correct. He would expect us to be lliek abused dogs, taking insults without comment. I say we mock right back.

[KorvinStarmast]

curious; how long did it take you to get to this place where you don’t let the words hurt.

I learned to consider the source.

Be honest, and remember hurtful words from people you respected.

Those are the exceptions to the general advice, in my experience, and yes they can really smart. (As often as not, what someone you respect says that can hurt is sometimes "the truth hurts" and not them being mean ... but that's a different topic than we have been digressing into). Somewhat related: I had a counsellor ask me one time when I was expressing some anger and frustration with someone who always set me off: "Why are you giving that person any real estate inside your head?" Working through the answer to that was an interesting journey.

[zimmerwald1915]

If someone punches you in the arm you dont have to let that hurt you its just neural sensation its up to you to decide if thats painful or not. Just get stronger arms

Well. There are certainly people who do this. It does, however, take a lot of time and effort that could be spent elsewhere, so it would be nice if extra pain-acclimatization wasn't a precondition of life for certain groups.

A fantastical dream. *sigh*

[woweedd]

Since you apparently didn't even read all of what you put in quotes for comprehension, I am not sure why you chose to reply. When you toss out some vague notion of 'who is more important' it is often useful to laydown the measurement criteria rather than your feeling or opinion. (which is what you offered regarding her role)

To put this into RPG context: spotlight sharing.
To follow up on a different RPG context: wizards are Tier 1 in the edition this was written against.

As to Haley's second in command role: she has both the Int and the Cha for that. Roy, a high Int fighter, seems also to have a decent to above average Cha score though that discussion has its own thread.

V has the int, not the cha
Elan has the Cha, not the Int
Belkar has neither, nor does he have the motivation.
Durkon likewise, though he could use Wisdom as a basis for leadership were he so moved, but he isn't.
Durkon's motive is his friendship with Roy; for most of the strip, he's more or less putting in time, waiting to learn when he can come home. For over well over 700 strips, it is clear that he has nothing better to do.

You're missing one crucial point: Wisdom. At the start of the comic, aside from Durkon, Roy was the ONLY member of the party with a Wisdom score that seems even in the double-digits, befitting his role as the Kermit-esque Straight Man for the others to bounce off of, and, even nowadays, he's by far the wiset. There's a reason that he and Durkon have had the least character development*: There's not much to develop. Roy has his flaws: most notably, he's not the best at listening to other people, a habit probably picked up by being in such a wacky crew, but he has the best mental stats of the entire party, which he uses to strategize, asses options, and lead. Thog once asked how Roy uses his mental scores in combat. My answer to that is simple: In being as good a leader to his party as he is, Roy is very much using his mental score in combat. He is what the Fighter flavor text suggests: Not merely a brute, but something close to a general in miniature. He's the brains of the Order, and when you cut him out...Well, we saw what happened.

*Although this book is doing its best to catch D up.

[Goblin_Priest]

Honestly, I'd probably have had far fewer issues with Haley's change if the author had not went ahead and explain it. I might not have even noticed. But knowing the real reason behind the change undermines the in-story justifications for it, because it makes it all excuses, a pretense. Haley didn't change because it made sense for her to do so, Haley changed because the author got the idea that he had to for social reasons that have nothing to do with the story at all.

As for the responsibilities with Haley being greater because she is a "hero" or a "member of the party"... why is Belkar still even around? Why wasn't he killed off years ago? Sadly, we know he will die, and we also kinda know that the reason he will die is largely along the same lines as the reasons behind Haley's changes... but still. For years, and some time still to come, Belkar's been promoting hate and violence.

And personally, I'd have no issues with a story depicting villainous things in the main cast. Heck, Start of Darkness is among my favorite material of this "franchise". A story on the vector legion would probably be good too. I don't read comics to become a better person or absorb life lessons. I read comics either for laughs or to enjoy a good story. Ideally both. Not because I don't want to become a good person, but because I'm not just some impressionable mind that absorbs everything I read as being Truth^TM that must be imitated. I like to assume a minimum of freedom of thought and critical thinking from my fellow human beings, even if at the core I don't believe humankind to be rational.

As for the whole importance of words, and words hurting... Sure, word can hurt if you let them. Sure, some people are more prone to let words hurt them. But that's kind of the point of it, too. It's like allergies. Or diseases. People exposed to them grow a tolerance and end up being able to shrug them off. People in ultra sanitized environment end up weak and fragile, killed off by the slightest germ. Grow a plant indoors, with no fan, no specific lighting, careful irrigation, and it might *look* okay. Then bring it outside, and it'll die within a day. The roots will dry up. The leaves will burn to the sun. The stems will break upon the slightest wind. The same applies to people. The obsession to sanitize society, and to shelter everyone from the slightest risk of potential hurt, turning the whole damn planet into a "safe space", doesn't actually help anyone. Just makes people thin-skinned and makes them react way out of proportion at the slightest slight. "Holy crap that person said I had an ugly nose, nobody was ever this mean to me before, guess I have no choice but to kill myself now". Disregarding hurtful words is something that is learned, and something that cannot be learned from a sheltered life. And I, for one, consider the ability to define oneself independently of third party opinions to be an ability all people should strive for.

[CJG]

I learned to consider the source.
Those are the exceptions to the general advice, in my experience, and yes they can really smart. (As often as not, what someone you respect says that can hurt is sometimes "the truth hurts" and not them being mean ... but that's a different topic than we have been digressing into). Somewhat related: I had a counsellor ask me one time when I was expressing some anger and frustration with someone who always set me off: "Why are you giving that person any real estate inside your head?" Working through the answer to that was an interesting journey.

So you had to *learn*. How much of your life was wasted *learning* to consider the source? Was it your childhood? Did it spill into your adulthood? If you didn’t have to learn how to “consider the source” what else could you have done with that time and energy?

Will is finite. There is only so much time in a day, and we only have so much energy to give. Me, I dunno. Maybe if there weren’t so many bullies through grade-high school to “learn to deal with” I would have been a better student. Maybe I wouldn’t have done college part time. Maybe I’d be the same now, I don’t know. I do know that I’d rather my children never have to go through what I went through than spend years “considering the source”. At 38 I know that what a 12yo said to me was stupid because they were 12. But it hurt real bad when I was 12.

Final thought: it’s great to consider the source of an insult, but you should pay some consideration to the targets as well.

[martianmister]

I understand how words can hurt. What I don't understand is why you let them.

We were actively taught to not take offense and certainly to not go looking for it. Words are only sounds. You give them meaning, and the meaning you give them allows them to affect you. For words to hurt you must:

1) give those words a meaning which belittles you
2) believe that meaning actually applies to you
3) and internalize those meanings in a way that affects your attitudes

Without those three steps, which you must perform independently of any intent or agency by anyone else, those words are just sound. Someone would have to scream them into your ear to cause you harm. Instead, you have been taught to create buzzwords with meanings supplied by others, and they have conditioned you to respond emotionally when those buzzwords are spoken.

I am strong. I am beautiful. I am master of the ship of my life, not a helpless passenger on the Titanic. I control my thoughts, attitudes, and feelings, not some random hater that is trying to control me with buzzwords. Call me weak, or ugly, or whatever you like: I know you're wrong. Your words are noise on the wind.

Back in my day if someone said things like that to us, we would kill them and bring their heads to our sultan so he can reward us with christian slave boys. You need to toughen yourself up...

You're a 50 year old American from New Orleans with enough privilege to get fantasy books and such. You have no right to dictate what others might find offensive, you are not an authority on what counts as unacceptable, you can't justify sexist behavior with playing mind games on us. You lose sir, good bye.

[woweedd]

Honestly, I'd probably have had far fewer issues with Haley's change if the author had not went ahead and explain it. I might not have even noticed. But knowing the real reason behind the change undermines the in-story justifications for it, because it makes it all excuses, a pretense. Haley didn't change because it made sense for her to do so, Haley changed because the author got the idea that he had to for social reasons that have nothing to do with the story at all.

As for the responsibilities with Haley being greater because she is a "hero" or a "member of the party"... why is Belkar still even around? Why wasn't he killed off years ago? Sadly, we know he will die, and we also kinda know that the reason he will die is largely along the same lines as the reasons behind Haley's changes... but still. For years, and some time still to come, Belkar's been promoting hate and violence.

And personally, I'd have no issues with a story depicting villainous things in the main cast. Heck, Start of Darkness is among my favorite material of this "franchise". A story on the vector legion would probably be good too. I don't read comics to become a better person or absorb life lessons. I read comics either for laughs or to enjoy a good story. Ideally both. Not because I don't want to become a good person, but because I'm not just some impressionable mind that absorbs everything I read as being Truth^TM that must be imitated. I like to assume a minimum of freedom of thought and critical thinking from my fellow human beings, even if at the core I don't believe humankind to be rational.

As for the whole importance of words, and words hurting... Sure, word can hurt if you let them. Sure, some people are more prone to let words hurt them. But that's kind of the point of it, too. It's like allergies. Or diseases. People exposed to them grow a tolerance and end up being able to shrug them off. People in ultra sanitized environment end up weak and fragile, killed off by the slightest germ. Grow a plant indoors, with no fan, no specific lighting, careful irrigation, and it might *look* okay. Then bring it outside, and it'll die within a day. The roots will dry up. The leaves will burn to the sun. The stems will break upon the slightest wind. The same applies to people. The obsession to sanitize society, and to shelter everyone from the slightest risk of potential hurt, turning the whole damn planet into a "safe space", doesn't actually help anyone. Just makes people thin-skinned and makes them react way out of proportion at the slightest slight. "Holy crap that person said I had an ugly nose, nobody was ever this mean to me before, guess I have no choice but to kill myself now". Disregarding hurtful words is something that is learned, and something that cannot be learned from a sheltered life. And I, for one, consider the ability to define oneself independently of third party opinions to be an ability all people should strive for.

OK, putting aside all the rest of this unpleasantness...I'm pretty sure that's not how allergies work.

[Peelee]

For people who say "they're just words, toughen up," y'all seem to have very strong reactions to a bunch of words on a forum and webcomic.

[martianmister]

As for the responsibilities with Haley being greater because she is a "hero" or a "member of the party"... why is Belkar still even around? Why wasn't he killed off years ago? Sadly, we know he will die, and we also kinda know that the reason he will die is largely along the same lines as the reasons behind Haley's changes... but still. For years, and some time still to come, Belkar's been promoting hate and violence.

Belkar is a murderous psychopath. It's absurd to compare him to Haley. But you're right about tolerating Belkar, they were wrong to protect Belkar. And they shouldn't tolerate it any longer.

For people who say "they're just words, toughen up," y'all seem to have very strong reactions to a bunch of words on a forum and webcomic.

Sexist words can't break their bones, but people arguing about these words on internet can.

[Liquor Box]

The author can write whatever character they want unless they are the slightest bit progressive in which case they are obviously pandering to "social conventions"


This post was definitely written by someone who has never been on the recieving end of hate speech

Yes! To re-iterate (And keep myself from getting last-paged:)

No!

The author is being criticised in this very thread for his non-progressive treatment of Hayley early in the comic, particularly in her interactions with other female characters. So the criticism does not just arise where the author strays into being "the slightest bit progressive".

Criticism of this comic goes both ways - progressive and non-progressive content is criticised from time to time, as is content that is neither preogressive nor non-progressive. Where it sits on the scale of being progressive or traditional does not effect the validity of the criticism. Let's evaluate the criticism on its own merits rather than latching onto it or dismissing it based on where it sits on some socio-political scale.

[Fincher]

For whatever it's worth, I liked Haley before, and I like Haley now.

[Liquor Box]

valid, i dont know your experiences. honestly your the first person ive talked to that has been through things like that and not understood how words can be violence, how they can do actual harm to people. Im not trying to deny your experience (sorry if that hurt you i will try to be better), but maybe you can do that same and not spit in the face of me and the people i know that have be tangibly hurt by other peoples speech.

sure, slurs and insults aren't going to literally hurt me like a bottle to the head does, but words terrify. words break me down until i feel like the only thing i am capable of doing is killing myself. words inspire hatred against me that inspires widespread, accepted physical violence against me.

Actually he's not because you have talked to me before. To be fair I hadn't mentioned it before because I don't think discussions should be about what race/gender/sexual preference etc the speaker is, but I will now because Brian has. I have also been the victim of what would be considered hate speech if my own country had laws against hate speech, and I have also been on the receiving end of actual physical violence in the same context.I hasten to say though, that I doubt my experiences were as pervasive as those described by Brian.

I don't think that adds any validity to my views, which I think stand on their own. But I suggest that many occasions when people disagree with you it is not because they don't understand you, or have not had similar experiences themselves. They may understand you completely and have had experiences just as difficult as your own, but despite that have reached a different conclusion.The only way for you to understand why is to listen to them with the same open-mindedness that you hope that people who don't understand you listen to you.

[Goblin_Priest]

OK, putting aside all the rest of this unpleasantness...I'm pretty sure that's not how allergies work.

Health officials' recommendations about the elimination of most common food allergens is said to have been a large cause in the increase of said food allergies. Many schools had banned all the common food allergens. Many schools are now lifting the ban.

Furthermore, removing the burden of people with food allergies has not really made them safer, even if we ignore the fact that it appears to make more people allergic. It makes them, and others, unwary. Because they assume the danger has been eliminated. They take less precautions, and make less preparations. A kid with allergies to peanuts will be less likely to ask, when sharing a snack, "hey does this contain peanuts?" in a context where peanuts being banned are an established rule. It's safer for that kid to *always* ask, instead of to assume that the rule is always followed.

I think food allergies are actually a pretty good analogy for the issue.

[2D8HP]

For whatever it's worth, I liked Haley before, and I like Haley now.

Your not the only one.

And for the record I also like how Haley has grown.

Frankly I emphasize most with:

1) The dirt farmers.

2) Haley/Roy (tie).

All other characters are distant thirds.

[137beth]

Your not the only one.

And for the record I also like how Haley has grown.

Frankly I emphasize most with:

1) The dirt farmers.

2) Haley/Roy (tie).

All other characters are distant thirds.

You emphasize with the dirt farmers?!? Pish posh, you spoiled first-world brat! Why, back in my day, we didn't even have dirt! We just had magma. If we wanted dirt, we'd have had to absorb all the heat out of the magma until it turned into rock, and then crush the rocks with our bare teeth! No, we couldn't use our bare hands, 'cause we didn't have hands yet. Today's kids just have no respect for the old ways.