OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yup. A mystery box has become to me a pretty clear sign I should bail immediately from whatever holds it. Because it never goes anywhere and tends to be an aggravating waste of time better spent anywhere else.

[hroþila]

It's such a cop-out because you could have exactly the same kind of fan speculation by planning the whole thing and then deciding which hints and red herrings to drop. I mean, if you can do this mystery box thing in a way that doesn't lead to a massive letdown, then fair enough, but that rarely seems to be the case.

[Petrocorus]

In an unrelated note, The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie is on Amazon Prime. That movie is about as good as a movie can get without having any reason to exist...

Given when, where and by whom this movie was made, i'm pretty sure its reason to exist was to be a social satire.

[danielxcutter]

Who, for the love of all censored out swear words on the Internet, is Hitchcock?

[Petrocorus]

Abrams himself can explain it: https://www.ted.com/talks/j_j_abrams...xt?language=en

Does he understand his own point?

Are we having the same conversation on two different thread?

[Ghosty]

Who, for the love of all censored out swear words on the Internet, is Hitchcock?

I'm sure I'm missing a joke somewhere along the way, but if I'm not, "Hitchcock", is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Hitchcock

One of, if not the finest director of suspense films in American cinema history.

EDIT: and the guy who came up with the concept of "the MacGuffin." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin Edit^2: I guess he just popularized the term, but didn't originate it.

[Peelee]

Who, for the love of all censored out swear words on the Internet, is Hitchcock?

Arguably the single most influential figure in all of filmmaking.

Does he understand his own point?

Kevin Smith put it best, I think: "... Because in Hollywood, you fail upwards."

Are we having the same conversation on two different thread?

Maybe. I'm goimg to abandon it in The Mandalorian thread now and stick to the show, since the main comic discussion thread is really where general Star Wars conversation should go.

[bunsen_h]

Let's try with imgur.

Spoiler

Show

Hmm. There are some details I don't get, perhaps because I don't know enough about current versions of D&D. Factors that you might want to add to your chart... One of the Father's main "mandates" is law and jurisprudence. The Mother is primarily responsible for most aspects of healing and what we would call medicine. I'm not sure if it's correct to say that War is an aspect of the Daughter; the fighters of her order protect travellers and maintain order internally.

Why those website don't work for the profile picture?

imgur doesn't permit the use of their service for hotlinked content for things like icons.

EDIT:

One important change: I think that you need to strike the "death" element from the Bastard. The so-called "death magic" is, theologically speaking, a miracle of justice: it only works as a last-ditch remedy to remove someone who is truly guilty of serious misdeeds, who is otherwise untouchable, and necessarily also kills the person who invokes the magic. Sorcerous magic cannot be used to kill, except by also destroying the demon (ending the sorcerer's career, apart from any consideration for the demon personally), so sorcerers do that only as a last resort. Death isn't a major part of the Bastard's "mandate". In Curse of Chalion and (IIRC) some of the later stories, we hear from people who investigate supposed cases of death magic, who say that the strong majority are fake (and many aren't even very good fakes, e.g. death magic does not kill by bludgeoning).

[danielxcutter]

I'm sure I'm missing a joke somewhere along the way, but if I'm not, "Hitchcock", is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Hitchcock

One of, if not the finest director of suspense films in American cinema history.

EDIT: and the guy who came up with the concept of "the MacGuffin." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin Edit^2: I guess he just popularized the term, but didn't originate it.

Arguably the single most influential figure in all of filmmaking.

There's not a particular joke in that besides the inherent humor from that combination of words, but I see. I've never seen any of those films before, but I've heard very small things about it. Just a) watching a Simpsons parody of Mr. & Mrs. Smith over a friend's shoulder during a field trip and 2. the Diamond Brothers book South by Southwest referencing North by Northwest in the title(which that series does a lot in general).

Judging by your tone, I presume that this Hitchcock influenced movies in the good ways?

Kevin Smith put it best, I think: "... Because in Hollywood, you fail upwards."

Is this why the Emoji Movie actually became a thing? I remarked in disgust that I'd probably be able to come up with a better story myself after hearing about it during a conversation on Discord and the other guy wholeheartedly agreed simply because apparently yes it really was that bad.

Maybe. I'm goimg to abandon it in The Mandalorian thread now and stick to the show, since the main comic discussion thread is really where general Star Wars conversation should go.

I love how we assume that Star Wars is always on-topic for the main comic discussion threads.

[Goblin_Priest]

But for the life of me I seriously can’t remember why anyone did anything in that movie. In my memory, they all just seemed to wildly careen from event to event, like space was a big pinball machine.

Well my memory is precisely thinking that these characters have no real reason to tag along all that much. They keep acting as friends, but spend little time together, don't overtly show shared ambitions or ideals.

Rey's characterization is terrible. It's like, they want to portray her as a normal ordinary person that's not politically motivated, but then always has her do stuff for the rebels. They try to tease us into thinking she's got darkness inside of her and could turn evil, but it's comically unbelievable and forced, and it's always blatantly clear that she will never do anything wrong or bad. She wants to find her parents, but doesn't. She wants to save Kylo, for some reason, but then doesn't? Every character gets huge mood swings from movie to movie in the sequels, but Rey is never even consistent within each movie individually.

Also, should we ignore the fact that Finn volunteered and dragged everyone on a suicide mission, as he literally didn't know of any weakness on Starkiller base when he cooked up the plan?

It is frustrating that not only does he think puzzles = stories, but that he often creates his "mystery boxes" without actually having the answers. A mystery should be solvable. Also, maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I watch stories for the characters and actions they take in the narrative, not to study background details and piece together theories about what's really going on.

Some mysteries can be intentional and with no specific answer. In Inception, at the end, we are meant to wonder if it's all a dream or not. I'm not really mad about that kind of mystery. But JJ just fills the whole story with them, and leaves basically nothing explained.

I don't suppose you can explain Mystery Boxes a bit better? I've not seen the JJ Abrams films so I keep imagining you're talking about the boxes from Deal or No Deal.

Basically, JJ Abrams thinks that knowledge is boring, and that mystery strokes the imagination, and that if you give people answers, they'll be entertained for the duration of the movie, but if you give people questions, you'll keep them entertained for a whole lot longer, and their own answers they make up will probably provide them with even more satisfaction than the answers you could have provided.

And there's truth to this.

But as stated above, Abrams wields this technique like a bludgeon. If all would agree that a little salt pulls out the flavor in a meal, Abrams pours down a whole pound of salt in your tomato sauce. More is better, right? Furthermore, he leads you to believe that there are answers, and that in due time they'll be provided, but really he's got none and because he had no answers to start with, then he just keeps piling contradicting stuff as he progresses the story up until he needs to actually sit down and write a conclusion. And a splash of "rule of cool", and a dab of pandering, and then you end up with stories that make little sense both as standalones, and as parts of a greater franchise. He clearly views franchises not as narrative universes full of untapped potential, but as a vault of gimmicks he can draw upon to pander to nostalgia, regardless of how much sense his inclusions make.

[danielxcutter]

It sounds like a mixture of being an excuse for being too lazy to actually bothering to write a proper story and being arrogantly sure that the ignorant masses will lap it up without question.

Am I warm?

[Peelee]

Judging by your tone, I presume that this Hitchcock influenced movies in the good ways?

As far as his products, yes. Behind the scenes, dude was colossal ****bag. Abjectly terrible human. But yes, his works influenced filmmaking in good ways - his movies are generally considered masterpieces.

Alsi had a good show, Alfred Hitchcock Presents, which was also phenomenally good even though he didn't direct the majority of the episodes, and he was still a major figure outside of the 4th wall in all episodes - those scenes were arguably a major part of its success, as he had very cutting wit, great humor (much of it dark), and an incredibly sonorous voice. Every person reading this who's seen it is hearing "Good evening" in their heads now.

It sounds like a mixture of being an excuse for being too lazy to actually bothering to write a proper story and being arrogantly sure that the ignorant masses will lap it up without question.

Am I warm?

You might want to get out of the house, you're so hot you could burn it down.

[Schroeswald]

The main comic discussion thread is really where general Star Wars conversation should go.

Yup I'm sigging this (as I remember you have given auto permission to sig it so no permission needed).

[danielxcutter]

As far as his products, yes. Behind the scenes, dude was colossal ****bag. Abjectly terrible human. But yes, his works influenced filmmaking in good ways - his movies are generally considered masterpieces.

Alsi had a good show, Alfred Hitchcock Presents, which was also phenomenally good even though he didn't direct the majority of the episodes, and he was still a major figure outside of the 4th wall in all episodes - those scenes were arguably a major part of its success, as he had very cutting wit, great humor (much of it dark), and an incredibly sonorous voice. Every person reading this who's seen it is hearing "Good evening" in their heads now.

So good artist, horrible person. Correct?

You might want to get out of the house, you're so hot you could burn it down.

Ha!

[Riftwolf]

Essentially, the "mystery box" in Abrams' usage is some mystery at the heart of the story-- broadly, "what's the deal with the island?" for LOST could be considered one. But Abrams' approach is not to have an answer in mind when he created the mystery (like, say, a detective story or whodunit would)-- the whole point of the mystery box is to get the audience to speculate and theorize about the mystery. He's not trying to tell a story; he's trying to get viewers to think about a question that has no answer.

... I think I prefer my version of mystery box. I hated Lost, not because of the mystery, but because I saw pretty quickly through the mystery and saw a bunch of writers adding cryptic garbage without an end goal.

[Peelee]

... I think I prefer my version of mystery box. I hated Lost, not because of the mystery, but because I saw pretty quickly through the mystery and saw a bunch of writers adding cryptic garbage without an end goal.

That is the definition of an Abrams mystery box, yes.

[Petrocorus]

That is the definition of an Abrams mystery box, yes.

As pointed out in the Cracked video i linked, mystery box can be used well, like in Pulp Fiction.

Hmm. There are some details I don't get, perhaps because I don't know enough about current versions of D&D. Factors that you might want to add to your chart... One of the Father's main "mandates" is law and jurisprudence. I'm not sure if it's correct to say that War is an aspect of the Daughter; the fighters of her order protect travellers and maintain order internally.

There are no Justice domain in DD5, most justice gods had the War or Knowledge domain until Ravnica came out and gave us the Order domain.
So i gave Order to the Father and War to the Daughter.
I hesitated to give the Daughter the Order domain too, but i thought since she handles the more practical aspect of policing, War was appropriate. I'm still hesitating.

The Mother is primarily responsible for most aspects of healing and what we would call medicine.

This is the Life domain, mostly about healing. She's the god of life as a whole hence the Nature domain. The Light domain is because she's the god of the Sun too.

imgur doesn't permit the use of their service for hotlinked content for things like icons.

What website do people use here?
I cannot do it with dropbox, and photobucket wants money.

One important change: I think that you need to strike the "death" element from the Bastard. The so-called "death magic" is, theologically speaking, a miracle of justice: it only works as a last-ditch remedy to remove someone who is truly guilty of serious misdeeds, who is otherwise untouchable, and necessarily also kills the person who invokes the magic. Sorcerous magic cannot be used to kill, except by also destroying the demon (ending the sorcerer's career, apart from any consideration for the demon personally), so sorcerers do that only as a last resort. Death isn't a major part of the Bastard's "mandate". In Curse of Chalion and (IIRC) some of the later stories, we hear from people who investigate supposed cases of death magic, who say that the strong majority are fake (and many aren't even very good fakes, e.g. death magic does not kill by bludgeoning).

The demon will go back with two souls, or with none.

I really am not sure at all about the Bastard. He's the god of Magic, hence the Arcane domain, but for the rest, not sure at all.
He's the god of change, which includes death and renewal, so i gave him Death and Life, but both seem a stretch. I thought about giving him the Grave domain instead of Death. I like this idea of him sharing a domain with the Mother.
I gave him the Trickery domain because i wanted this domain to be available, and it seemed vaguely fitting.

As i said, i'm not satisfied with it and it still needs work.
I may look into the domains from the Plane Shift online supplement.
I will probably have better idea once i finish the Chalion books.

So good artist, horrible person. Correct?

Probably not a horrible as Kubrik.

[Ghosty]

...Probably not a horrible as Kubrik.

Roman Polanski says, "Hi!"

Daniel, go see what we're talking about with Hitchcock. Rent something like Vertigo, or Psycho,. Consider though that they're old movies, and things that were novel when Hitchcock introduced them, might seem cliched to your eyes now.

There's a reason why he was mentioned in this thread as an antithesis to Abrams-style plotting.

[Petrocorus]

Roman Polanski says, "Hi!"

I think we could go on and on. The list is not short.

[Peelee]

As pointed out in the Cracked video i linked, mystery box can be used well, like in Pulp Fiction.

While I enjoyed that video, there are several responses to this line. First, I specified "Abrams mystery box", so yeah, I'm not discounting mystery boxes at all. Second, let's view TFA in a vacuum compared to Pulp Fiction. Pulp Fiction is its own self-contained story - it doesn't matter what is in the briefcase, all that matters is that the characters want it. However, TFA is a continuation of an existing storyline, so how Maz got Anakin's lightsaber is an important question - there's no reason she should have it except plot convenience without an answer to that question - an answer that never came in the movies. Same for R2' mysterious awakening from his shutdown - there is no apparent reason for R2 to awaken at that time with exactly the information needed, so he is merely a convenient plot device. Unlike the briefcase (which, after all, is a convenient plot device), these substantially alter the plot and allow it to progress - the briefcase exists merely as a thing to be desired, and does nothing to advance the plot or solve a problem in its own.

Which is really the reason why the Abrams mystery box is so terrible - competent writers and directors use mystery in unimportant parts where reality could never match expectations. Abrams instead tries to apply this to the actual plot itself, which is a colossal failure - the only reason he makes a movie to start with instead of saying "well, there's another Star Wars movie, but just imagine it instead" is because there's no money in that.

[Goblin_Priest]

... I think I prefer my version of mystery box. I hated Lost, not because of the mystery, but because I saw pretty quickly through the mystery and saw a bunch of writers adding cryptic garbage without an end goal.

I liked Lost up to season... 3 or so, I think that's about where I hit my "yea, they aren't gonna bother explaining any of this is a satisfying way".

Abuse of the concept of the mystery like Abrams does basically results in the opposite of its goals. Instead of hooking us on and trying to figure out how something came to be or what it is, we just end up shrugging it off as "I don't know, and neither does the author, and no satisfying answer is likely to ever be presented". So in the end, instead of asking ourselves how Maz got the lightsaber, and imagining all kinds of scenarios that keep us entertained, we just go "meh, it makes no sense, and Abrams himself doesn't have a clue, he just left the question unanswered because he wanted the lightsaber to be given but couldn't bother to think of a plausible reason for this to happen".

Which, incidentally, is what Rian Johnson just went with. "Who is Snoke? Doesn't Matter. Who are Rey's parents? Doesn't matter." These questions didn't matter to Rian, because they didn't really matter to JJ Abrams either.

[Petrocorus]

While I enjoyed that video, there are several responses to this line. First, I specified "Abrams mystery box", so yeah, I'm not discounting mystery boxes at all. .....s no money in that.

I agree with all of this.
My comment was not intended to contradict your point, rather to second it.
More in the line of "mystery boxes can be used well, like in Pulp Fiction, but JJA is not able to do it."

[bunsen_h]

This is the Life domain, mostly about healing. She's the god of life as a whole hence the Nature domain. The Light domain is because she's the god of the Sun too.

I'm not sure where the "god of the Sun" comes from..?

What website do people use here?
I cannot do it with dropbox, and photobucket wants money.

I use https://imgbb.com . The storage limit is only 32 MB, but that's perfectly adequate for a few profile icons.

I really am not sure at all about the Bastard. He's the god of Magic, hence the Arcane domain, but for the rest, not sure at all.

He's the god of one form of magic. There's also shamanic magic, which might be (weakly?) associated with the Son.

He's the god of change, which includes death and renewal, so i gave him Death and Life, but both seem a stretch. I thought about giving him the Grave domain instead of Death. I like this idea of him sharing a domain with the Mother.

I gave him the Trickery domain because i wanted this domain to be available, and it seemed vaguely fitting.

I'm not clear on what's implied by the Trickery domain. If you're trying to pull off a charade to escape a dangerous situation for valid reasons, he's your god. But he's also absolutely the god of "your complicated plan to defraud lots of people massively blows up in your face at the worst possible time". Do not invoke him in the name of religious hypocrisy or you will regret it. "Signs of the Bastard's holy presence tend to be unmistakeable, to those who know Him. The screaming, the people running in circles -- all that was lacking was something bursting into flame, and I was not entirely sure for a moment you weren't going to provide that, as well." -- The Hallowed Hunt

As i said, i'm not satisfied with it and it still needs work.

Again, there's the basic problem of trying to fit a very different kind of magic system into the D&D forms.

I may look into the domains from the Plane Shift online supplement.
I will probably have better idea once i finish the Chalion books.

Finishing them is problematic since she's still writing them. But you can catch up. I'm several novellas behind, since I prefer to read text in paper form, and that doesn't happen until about six months after the third release of a novella in E-text form.

[Ruck]

Some mysteries can be intentional and with no specific answer. In Inception, at the end, we are meant to wonder if it's all a dream or not. I'm not really mad about that kind of mystery. But JJ just fills the whole story with them, and leaves basically nothing explained.

Ambiguity is fine, and the viewers don't need to know everything. (See also the Pulp Fiction example, which Peelee already explained nicely.) What Abrams does is set up his entire plot around a mystery box that's the key to the whole story, then never explains it, because he doesn't know what's in the box either. Which, well, you already summed it up, really:

he leads you to believe that there are answers, and that in due time they'll be provided, but really he's got none and because he had no answers to start with, then he just keeps piling contradicting stuff as he progresses the story up until he needs to actually sit down and write a conclusion.

edit for another topic:

I use https://imgbb.com . The storage limit is only 32 MB, but that's perfectly adequate for a few profile icons.

Heh, my site's secure settings are having some problems so my avatar wasn't working. So I used this one, but on this site it's strangely zoomed in.

[Petrocorus]

I'm not sure where the "god of the Sun" comes from..?

Not sure, seen that on the Chalion wiki IIRC.

I use https://imgbb.com . The storage limit is only 32 MB, but that's perfectly adequate for a few profile icons.

Thanks

He's the god of one form of magic. There's also shamanic magic, which might be (weakly?) associated with the Son.

In terms of D&D, that'd mean arcane magic fall under the Bastard's supervision, while druidic magic fall under the Son's or the Mother's one. At least, it's the simplest way to do it.
Chalion is low magic, so this is an adaptation of the Five Gods to fit D&D.
If i wanted to actually play in the Chalion universe, i would use another game system, like BRPS or D6.

I'm not clear on what's implied by the Trickery domain. If you're trying to pull off a charade to escape a dangerous situation for valid reasons, he's your god.

It varies.
Many gods have it, including travel or luck gods.
It can be representing cunning and ruse.

Again, there's the basic problem of trying to fit a very different kind of magic system into the D&D forms.

Indeed.
Hence the adaptation cannot be perfect.
I really hesitate to give Order to the Daughter, so she would have one common domain with the Mother and one with the Father.
I'm not sure what common domain the Son can have with the Father. He shares Nature with the Mother.

I really have a problem with the Bastard. I do believe he should have Arcane, but there not really a domain for change, transformation, or last-resort solutions.

Finishing them is problematic since she's still writing them. But you can catch up. I'm several novellas behind, since I prefer to read text in paper form, and that doesn't happen until about six months after the third release of a novella in E-text form.

I'll probably reread all LMMB's books in English one day.
I have a big pile of to-read books before.

[bunsen_h]

Not sure, seen that on the Chalion wiki IIRC.

In terms of D&D, that'd mean arcane magic fall under the Bastard's supervision, while druidic magic fall under the Son's or the Mother's one. At least, it's the simplest way to do it.

The Chalion wiki's entry for the Mother quotes Ista: "Her face was too beautiful for my eyes to comprehend, it was like staring into the sun." But that's a metaphor.

Mapping shamanic magic to druidic seems reasonable to me.

[deltamire]

Heh, my site's secure settings are having some problems so my avatar wasn't working. So I used this one, but on this site it's strangely zoomed in.

I had the same problem with my original avatar - the forum's got a limited pixel size (I believe for profile images it's 100px, but you'd be better off checking the image uploading rules before), and while the site'll allow you to upload bigger images to the profile link, it'll chop 'em down to 100px to fit, hence the cropping issues. Your best bet is using a site like IMGBB, like bunsen said (it's what I use) or another hosting service that can resize while uploading, making it less than 100px so it's the right size.

[bunsen_h]

I had the same problem with my original avatar - the forum's got a limited pixel size (I believe for profile images it's 100px, but you'd be better off checking the image uploading rules before), and while the site'll allow you to upload bigger images to the profile link, it'll chop 'em down to 100px to fit, hence the cropping issues. Your best bet is using a site like IMGBB, like bunsen said (it's what I use) or another hosting service that can resize while uploading, making it less than 100px so it's the right size.

Or scale your icon to the correct limit before uploading it, of course.

[Fyraltari]

Arguably the single most influential figure in all of filmmaking.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention Georges "what if we used cinema to make fiction also I'm just going to invent every practical effect" Méliès as having (probably) a better claim to that title.

[Petrocorus]

The Chalion wiki's entry for the Mother quotes Ista: "Her face was too beautiful for my eyes to comprehend, it was like staring into the sun." But that's a metaphor.

Mapping shamanic magic to druidic seems reasonable to me.

Yeah, i kinda know what's metaphor.
I did see this somewhere, or else i wouldn't have noted on my files. Where i saw it is another business, i did it a few years ago before the WG to Eberron came out.
I've been unable to find it yesterday, so indeed it probably was a mistake on this somewhere.