OOTS #1262 - The Discussion Thread

[TaiLiu]

Right, but only under duress and in a way that relied upon him first realizing that he was acting like Xykon. I don't think it's impossible for Redcloak to make the right decision, but it's going to take a really heavy blow to his ego... like finding out that Xykon has figured out his "plan" ages ago and was paying closer attention than Redcloak thought at the time.

Right, but that's fine. (For us and for the OOTS world, not for him.) It's a hard road, but I think he'll get to the right village eventually.

Well, not so far as Tsukiko and Redcloak know. I mean, if you suspect your immediate lieutenant is lying to you (which Xykon clearly does), you might not let him know what you can do to know more.

That seems unlikely to me. I think if he could've pulled off epic divination, he would've tracked down V and everyone's favorite paladin. They did nearly destroy his soul hidey-place.

I'm not sure where you're getting that unearned confidence. Apart from rare exceptions of clarity, Redcloak has an established pattern of doubling down time and again on his beloved plans at the expense of reason. He's basically Miko but evil. Something truly fundamental would have to happen to change that, and Redcloak has made a character trait out of getting aggressive at any challenge to the all-important superiority of his plans. His potential redemption just doesn't add up as plausible to me. His self-destructive death, by contrast, does.

Well, we know that Elan's gonna have a happy ending, so I think the gates really will be sealed in the end with the purple god energy. I just think the most likely scenario for a purple ninth-level spell slot being used is if Redcloak does it. It seems like no other clerics, let alone Dark One-worshipping clerics, are capable of such a feat.

Hence my confidence. I think he's gonna get lost on the way to the right village, but he's gonna make it.

[fishhead202]

I feel like I need to re-evaluate several of my life decisions now.

[danielxcutter]

Really? I think it's incredibly generous for giving you 60+ bonus caster levels, a bunch of Epic Spells, and the ability to spontaneously cast the whole load. And 60 levels worth of feats too apparently.

For like 20 in-game minutes. And also ended up costing V immensely even outside the pact itself. In exchange for being taken out of the game whenever the "DM" feels like it and probably has even more ramifications down the line.

Honestly I don't really like DStP as a whole especially from the quasi-game approach because a lot of it really kinda feels like the "DM" is actively trying to make the "players" suffer. Yes, I am aware that this is not an actual game but on the flip side I'm of the opinion that's why those were "okay" at all - many things there would be complete asspulls for the sole sake of screwing them over.

[RatElemental]

So, hands up who thinks Oona is placing little-bald-cape-man in a different village to the one he's placing himself in

I for one would absolutely believe that she believes Redcloak is going to betray the goblin people if it comes down to the wire and is still cheerfully working with him anyway.

[Ionathus]

For like 20 in-game minutes. And also ended up costing V immensely even outside the pact itself. In exchange for being taken out of the game whenever the "DM" feels like it and probably has even more ramifications down the line.

I mean, your game is your own, but the Soul Splice is exactly the kind of stuff my players would eat up. I toss them "Power at a Cost" choices frequently and they eat it up like 60% of the time, and they ALWAYS engage with it either way.

I firmly believe that it should be not only allowed, but encouraged and even incentivized for PCs to make "bad" choices in game. Obviously game-changing powerups with obvious future ominousness are a key example of that. If your players trust the world and the game, they're occasionally going to be willing to take that particular ball and run with it.

Honestly I don't really like DStP as a whole especially from the quasi-game approach because a lot of it really kinda feels like the "DM" is actively trying to make the "players" suffer. Yes, I am aware that this is not an actual game but on the flip side I'm of the opinion that's why those were "okay" at all - many things there would be complete asspulls for the sole sake of screwing them over.

What elements of DStP felt like asspulls to you? I'm curious because that book felt like the first time the story stepped AWAY from using obviously contrived coincidences to manipulate the plot. Compared to War and XPs -- where we had Roy barely missing the correct Oracle prediction, Durkon's permission to come home letter being lost due to coincidence, Mike appearing Diabolus-Ex-Machina seconds before Soon could kill Team Evil -- compared to that, DStP feels refreshingly character-driven.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, your game is your own, but the Soul Splice is exactly the kind of stuff my players would eat up. I toss them "Power at a Cost" choices frequently and they eat it up like 60% of the time, and they ALWAYS engage with it either way.

I firmly believe that it should be not only allowed, but encouraged and even incentivized for PCs to make "bad" choices in game. Obviously game-changing powerups with obvious future ominousness are a key example of that. If your players trust the world and the game, they're occasionally going to be willing to take that particular ball and run with it.

Well losing your family, inadvertently slaughtering thousands, and being straight up taken out of the game are prettybig costs honestly.

What elements of DStP felt like asspulls to you? I'm curious because that book felt like the first time the story stepped AWAY from using obviously contrived coincidences to manipulate the plot. Compared to War and XPs -- where we had Roy barely missing the correct Oracle prediction, Durkon's permission to come home letter being lost due to coincidence, Mike appearing Diabolus-Ex-Machina seconds before Soon could kill Team Evil -- compared to that, DStP feels refreshingly character-driven.

Let's see, the imp who managed to pull an advanced pit fiend from thin air is a pretty good place to start. What about Celia taking Roy's corpse to a golem-maker - and one that specialized in flesh golem of all things, so everything Haley, Celia, and Belkar could have done wouldn't have done much? What about the thieves' guild having an NPC who literally had a build to counter Haley, and another who was at least 18th-level while Belkar was out of commission and Celia unwilling to properly contribute to the fight? What about Celia basically making a deal that involved Haley handing over all of her WBL? What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

Yeah, a comic tells a story in a different way than a game does, and that's probably for the better because these would not really slide easily at most tables.

[arimareiji]

I mean, your game is your own, but the Soul Splice is exactly the kind of stuff my players would eat up. I toss them "Power at a Cost" choices frequently and they eat it up like 60% of the time, and they ALWAYS engage with it either way.

I firmly believe that it should be not only allowed, but encouraged and even incentivized for PCs to make "bad" choices in game. Obviously game-changing powerups with obvious future ominousness are a key example of that. If your players trust the world and the game, they're occasionally going to be willing to take that particular ball and run with it.

I would eat it up too. If you can't make bad choices, then you can't make meaningful ones - and imo, being able to see the results of life choices at a remove is one of the best aspects of RPGs. It facilitates (and creates the opportunity to practice) self-honesty without ego on the line, and humans typically need all the help they can get in that regard. (Me absolutely included.)

What elements of DStP felt like asspulls to you? I'm curious because that book felt like the first time the story stepped AWAY from using obviously contrived coincidences to manipulate the plot. Compared to War and XPs -- where we had Roy barely missing the correct Oracle prediction, Durkon's permission to come home letter being lost due to coincidence, Mike appearing Diabolus-Ex-Machina seconds before Soon could kill Team Evil -- compared to that, DStP feels refreshingly character-driven.

Hehe, diabolus ex machina. Very well played. (^_^)b

Let's see, the imp who managed to pull an advanced pit fiend from thin air is a pretty good place to start. What about Celia taking Roy's corpse to a golem-maker - and one that specialized in flesh golem of all things, so everything Haley, Celia, and Belkar could have done wouldn't have done much? What about the thieves' guild having an NPC who literally had a build to counter Haley, and another who was at least 18th-level while Belkar was out of commission and Celia unwilling to properly contribute to the fight? What about Celia basically making a deal that involved Haley handing over all of her WBL? What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

Yeah, a comic tells a story in a different way than a game does, and that's probably for the better because these would not really slide easily at most tables.

The imp, absolutely... although it did give rise to one of my favorite V lines in response (last panel). XD

Celia's series of farfetched misunderstandings leading to Grubwiggler, too.

But after those, the rest don't seem far off-course for a game that has the handicap of trying to thread high-level players into a roughly-level-appropriate adventure story. Or seem on par with the reality that sometimes intelligent people get their heads stuck halfway up their pelvis (Celia's deal). Or seem like unwanted-but-realistic consequences that players aren't usually made to consider (Dragonmom).

[The MunchKING]

For like 20 in-game minutes. And also ended up costing V immensely even outside the pact itself. In exchange for being taken out of the game whenever the "DM" feels like it and probably has even more ramifications down the line.

Yeah, but people would sell their souls to the lower planes FOREVER for that kind of power in games, so just "as long as the Soul Splice" is really quite good.

Well losing your family, inadvertently slaughtering thousands, and being straight up taken out of the game are prettybig costs honestly.

She didn't inadvertently slaughter thousands, she willingly and deliberately slaughtered thousands. (I mean she may have gotten a few more than she thought, but she knew the chance was there. And she lost her family, not from the demon contract, but because of her words and deeds afterward, what with the prioritizing vengeance on the ABD over any non-life-threatening injuries, and the holding of the dark power over Inky.

[Provengreil]

Y’know, this isn’t the first time I’ve been glad that OotS isn’t an actual game because the pact still feels like a jackass DM move to me.

Shock and surprise, literal deals with devils are a bad idea even when they sound good.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Let's see, the imp who managed to pull an advanced pit fiend from thin air is a pretty good place to start. What about Celia taking Roy's corpse to a golem-maker - and one that specialized in flesh golem of all things, so everything Haley, Celia, and Belkar could have done wouldn't have done much? What about the thieves' guild having an NPC who literally had a build to counter Haley, and another who was at least 18th-level while Belkar was out of commission and Celia unwilling to properly contribute to the fight? What about Celia basically making a deal that involved Haley handing over all of her WBL? What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

None of these seem especially more outrageous than anything else that happens in the story. You could describe pretty much any chapter like this.

Elan blowing up the first gate out of stupidity? Shojo sending Miko after the Order instead of somebody more stable, and the storm that conveniently allowed her to defeat them? The charms on the Oracle's valley wiping Roy's memory right as he realised he misinterpreted the Oracle's prediction? Titanium elementals? Miko choosing to blow up the gate right before Xykon and Redcloak would have otherwise been killed? Draketooth lying about the location of the gate? Elan's dad-- just, everything about him? Draketooth being related to black dragons? V falling into a trap? The IFCC's conditions allowing them to prevent V from communicating with the party? Malack's build being perfectly set up to defeat both Durkon and Belkar? The Godsmoot votes being almost perfectly balanced, enough for Hel to sway them? Dvalin's rules being so easily circumvented with domination? And on and on and on.

Like yeah, there's a bunch of bad things that happen which perhaps might not have happened if things unfolded differently. That happens in every single chapter. That doesn't feel like a DSTP thing. Bad things happen because that is how stories work.

[Vikenlugaid]

I'm curious at this point in time: What do people think Oona's alignment likely is? I'm leaning towards somewhere in Neutral, despite being part of "Team Evil"

She wanted to kill 2 humans to feed MitD so probably is evil.

[danielxcutter]

None of these seem especially more outrageous than anything else that happens in the story. You could describe pretty much any chapter like this.

Elan blowing up the first gate out of stupidity? Shojo sending Miko after the Order instead of somebody more stable, and the storm that conveniently allowed her to defeat them? The charms on the Oracle's valley wiping Roy's memory right as he realised he misinterpreted the Oracle's prediction? Titanium elementals? Miko choosing to blow up the gate right before Xykon and Redcloak would have otherwise been killed? Draketooth lying about the location of the gate? Elan's dad-- just, everything about him? Draketooth being related to black dragons? V falling into a trap? The IFCC's conditions allowing them to prevent V from communicating with the party? Malack's build being perfectly set up to defeat both Durkon and Belkar? The Godsmoot votes being almost perfectly balanced, enough for Hel to sway them? Dvalin's rules being so easily circumvented with domination? And on and on and on.

Like yeah, there's a bunch of bad things that happen which perhaps might not have happened if things unfolded differently. That happens in every single chapter. That doesn't feel like a DSTP thing. Bad things happen because that is how stories work.

I mean a lot of those actually felt plausible - but it felt like DStP was a back-to-back marathon of "DM screwing with the party".

Like seriously, an advanced pit fiend?

[Fyraltari]

Shock and surprise, literal deals with devils are a bad idea even when they sound good.

Spoiler: Warlocks be like

Show

[hroþila]

I mean a lot of those actually felt plausible - but it felt like DStP was a back-to-back marathon of "DM screwing with the party".

Like seriously, an advanced pit fiend?

It's just, it makes sense to think "if this was a game this would be a bad DM", but even if you say you're aware that there is no DM and that this is a story and not a game, it comes across as you totally judging the story as if it were a game with a DM.

[Potatopeelerkin]

I mean a lot of those actually felt plausible - but it felt like DStP was a back-to-back marathon of "DM screwing with the party".

Like seriously, an advanced pit fiend?

The advanced pit fiend was ultimately a very minor speedbump for the party. The only major consequence to that whole situation was Therkla's death, who was a character that first appeared in DSTP anyway. If anything the Order came out ahead, since Kubota died as a result too.

Like, sure, it wasn't likely the imp would summon a dangerous fiend, which was lampshaded by the comic itself, but it ultimately was not actually that big of a deal.

[Vikenlugaid]

No one else seems to have thought that because it's incredibly tortured logic at best. You pretty much have to start with the conclusion that the Order decided to use the monsters to wear down Team Evil and work from there, which is in no way supported by the events we actually see. Also, they ran into a marked door with recently cleared snow, which even the slightest application of logic would suggest to be a recently cleared dungeon anyway, and tried to hide their tracks: the best way to use the monsters would be to use their scent to make the bad guys follow them into an unmarked door with a snow pile.

I can't think of a single factor in the comic that supports your conclusion here.

Only that they actually said Team Evil was going to be weakened for fighting with the monsters and the Order wanted to use that factor in their ambush.
So, yes, if they want to actually treat monsters like people, that is not a good start.

[Shining Wrath]

Any time there are gods and magic involved, you shouldn't ask for the plot to follow the laws of probability. As a guy said in what is generally regarded as a well-written tale:

There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.

[Shining Wrath]

Only that they actually said Team Evil was going to be weakened for fighting with the monsters and the Order wanted to use that factor in their ambush.
So, yes, if they want to actually treat monsters like people, that is not a good start.

The Order didn't actually want Team Evil to pursue them. But given that Team Evil was pursuing them and was likely to encounter monsters and fight them, that was to the Order's advantage.

[Bacon Elemental]

Glad to finally see where Oona stands. She's been something of an unknown follower, but now we can see she's

A) Completely on the side of Goblins Now over Goblins Theoretical,
B) Completely aware that Redcloak will choose Goblins Theoretical for personal reasons if ever forced,
C) Dedicated to making sure his plan works now so he isnt ever forced to make that choice,
D) Already used to having to beat her villagers over the head with the concept of metaphors

[Dame_Mechanus]

That seems unlikely to me. I think if he could've pulled off epic divination, he would've tracked down V and everyone's favorite paladin. They did nearly destroy his soul hidey-place.

To be clear, I actually pretty much agree with you on this point - my point is not to say that Xykon definitely has epic-level and incredibly reliable divination tricks at his disposal that he just hasn't used on-panel at this point, but just to avoid discounting it out of hand. It's not something that can be altogether ruled out based on what we know about Xykon, his propensity to pick up additional tricks, and his general resourcefulness.

It is entirely possible for this to be incorrect and even if Xykon has figured out Redcloak is lying to him for it to be through altogether mundane means. I just wouldn't be stunned if Xykon revealed he magically knew more than he let on.

[Eric the White]

Pretty much. Except that Redcloak does not, in fact, agree that these are two different villages. He believes that he is, and was All Along, Right about What's Best for Goblins.

If he did recognize that he might be wrong about what's best for goblindom, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

Exactly. That's how he rationalizes his plan likely causing the death of every single goblinoid in existence as "best for goblins" If they destroy the world, the Dark One will get a say in creating the next world. He hasn't realized that that doesn't mean much. The Dark One will have to live with the other gods choices just like they will have to live with his.

[arimareiji]

Glad to finally see where Oona stands. She's been something of an unknown follower, but now we can see she's

A) Completely on the side of Goblins Now over Goblins Theoretical,
B) Completely aware that Redcloak will choose Goblins Theoretical for personal reasons if ever forced,
C) Dedicated to making sure his plan works now so he isnt ever forced to make that choice,
D) Already used to having to beat her villagers over the head with the concept of metaphors

My Freudian eyeballs strike again: The interests of "Goblins Now" are indeed in opposition to those of "Goblins Theocratical". (^_~)

[Fyraltari]

My Freudian eyeballs strike again: The interests of "Goblins Now" are indeed in opposition to those of "Goblins Theocratical". (^_~)

Goobotopia's a theocracy when you think about it.

[runeghost]

Right, but only under duress and in a way that relied upon him first realizing that he was acting like Xykon. I don't think it's impossible for Redcloak to make the right decision, but it's going to take a really heavy blow to his ego... like finding out that Xykon has figured out his "plan" ages ago and was paying closer attention than Redcloak thought at the time.

I've got a little speculation on what could do that...

Spoiler: Only a spoiler if I'm right, which I'm probably not

Show

It would take Redcloak discovering that the Dark One doesn't care a bit for the Goblin races, except insofar as they're useful to him. That could be through Redcloak witnessing the Dark One refusing to save the world (and the goblins on it) for his own personal reasons.

There's always been a tickling suspicion in my head that the Dark One, or at least his motives, aren't what everyone thinks they are. (I searched the forum, but didn't find anything - forgive me if people have already been down this road and I missed it.) I find it very suspicious that his colors are so close to the colors of the Snarl, and that his sole focus appears to be getting a gate/rift to where the Snarl can attack the Gods. And we basically never see him "on screen" as a deity. The closest we've gotten is Thor narrating a flashback to where it appears Thor was face-to-face with him.

Even if he really is a goblin deity, there are no guarantees that he has any real interest in the goblins, other than what he needs from them. Perhaps he will indulge himself in an self-focused rant that pushes Redcloak into seeing what his god truly is... while Redcloak still possesses a connection to his power.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, a comic tells a story in a different way than a game does, and that's probably for the better because these would not really slide easily at most tables.

Well yeah....A traditional heroic high-fantasy story features characters triumphing against overwhelming odds, at a table overwhelming odds means the characters are overwhelmed and almost certainly won't triumph. They rely on different sorts of empathy with the characters, which have different criteria for what situations manifest them most effectively.

[Ionathus]

Well losing your family, inadvertently slaughtering thousands, and being straight up taken out of the game are prettybig costs honestly.

She didn't inadvertently slaughter thousands, she willingly and deliberately slaughtered thousands. (I mean she may have gotten a few more than she thought, but she knew the chance was there. And she lost her family, not from the demon contract, but because of her words and deeds afterward, what with the prioritizing vengeance on the ABD over any non-life-threatening injuries, and the holding of the dark power over Inky.

MunchKING said it better than I could've: everything that happened to V was V's fault, end of sentence. Sure the IFCC lied by omission about being taken out of 3 short lengths of time, but who enters a soul-leasing deal with fiends expecting to not be screwed over? V knew the risk: they just didn't care, because the power was too important. And what about V's family? V's Familicide? The narrative is quite explicitly clear that those consequences rest solely upon V's brow. They made a deal with fiends for power even though there was another option, they killed thousands of black dragon relatives even though they knew dragons interbreed with humans, and they kept the power because they wanted it more than they wanted their family.

Had I seen the entire arc play out in an actual-play podcast, I would nod and go "yeah, makes sense." What's more, I would be blown away by the player's commitment to their character's flawed decision-making, and the DM's ability to lay groundwork for extreme actions to have extreme consequences. V committed genocide without a second thought, and you're claiming the consequences of that action would feel like a "gotcha" at a table, because V couldn't have known that possibility even though V didn't even pause to consider what innocents they might be killing. Calling it the act of a capricious DM is excusing V's lust for power and ego. And what's more, it's missing the entire point of V's DStP arc.

Let's see, the imp who managed to pull an advanced pit fiend from thin air is a pretty good place to start.

Low hanging fruit given that V lampshades this in-comic, but I'll bite. As others have stated, the advanced pit fiend did little more than slow down and distract the heroes while making for an entertaining fight. A bunch of ninjas could probably have done the same.

What about Celia taking Roy's corpse to a golem-maker - and one that specialized in flesh golem of all things, so everything Haley, Celia, and Belkar could have done wouldn't have done much?

What about the thieves' guild having an NPC who literally had a build to counter Haley, and another who was at least 18th-level while Belkar was out of commission and Celia unwilling to properly contribute to the fight?

I'm not sure why you consider the entire guild of murdering outlaws that Haley left on bad terms to be a contrivance. Haley told Celia very clearly not to go to Greysky, and because Haley & Celia's dynamic was well-documented as combative and strained (because Haley was not a strong leader, again, character stuff), Celia ignored her. They were put in a bad situation due to Celia's stubbornness and Haley's inability to 1. open up and explain the risks and 2. understand leadership well enough to instill trust in her companions. This is all extremely in-character for both of them. I don't see the contrivance.

I will grant you that Celia's repeated misunderstandings throughout her Grubwiggler meeting strain credibility. It's not my favorite kind of humor, but it makes sense from a comedy and storytelling standpoint and it gave an excuse to draw some cool Frankenstein-style monsters. However, it's not like she wasn't in trouble the second she walked into Greysky City. She could've just as easily been mugged on the street by Grubwiggler or one of his minions, or had to abandon the cart for some reason. It's not like the Grubwiggler thing was some sudden shift or "gotcha" - it was a logical conclusion to a very bad decision.

What about Celia basically making a deal that involved Haley handing over all of her WBL?

Putting aside that Celia's whole schtick is "mortal lives are more important than treasure"...What problem does this actually introduce? As far as I can tell, Haley doesn't even lose any money - she skips town before paying up.

What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

Your complaint is that V killed a black dragon and the dragon's family (which was already implied to exist by dialogue at the time) eventually came calling? I don't find it unbelievable that a black dragon would seek vengeance for this. They're a long-lived and extremely powerful species known for holding centuries-long grudges. Even then, the ABD specifically calls out that she was much, much less likely to attack unless V separated themselves from the rest of the group. V was told not to do this by the rest of the group. V's ego led them to take this risk.

You claim these events are contrivances but I don't see it. I see entirely believable consequences that follow directly from the main characters' actions and mistakes.

Glad to finally see where Oona stands. She's been something of an unknown follower, but now we can see she's

A) Completely on the side of Goblins Now over Goblins Theoretical,
B) Completely aware that Redcloak will choose Goblins Theoretical for personal reasons if ever forced,
C) Dedicated to making sure his plan works now so he isnt ever forced to make that choice,
D) Already used to having to beat her villagers over the head with the concept of metaphors

I love this dynamic. Particularly that Oona outright states "yeah you'll throw us all in the garbage without a second's hesitation" but still chooses to work with him, cheerfully even!

Oona is fantastic and I want her to feature in more strips! Haha this one was great - the insistence on the bridge being a metaphor really tickled me

My Freudian eyeballs strike again: The interests of "Goblins Now" are indeed in opposition to those of "Goblins Theocratical". (^_~)

Hmm, if you're implying that this mistake was a Freudian slip, then it implies you're basically constantly thinking about goblin theocracy. Which is totally reasonable, tbh.

[bunsen_h]

My Freudian eyeballs strike again: The interests of "Goblins Now" are indeed in opposition to those of "Goblins Theocratical". (^_~)

He is the very model of a goblin theocratical.

[Dame_Mechanus]

He is the very model of a goblin theocratical.

He has allies martial, psionic, and most puissantly magical,
He demonstrates command of subjects doctrinal and national,
As well as divine mastery of magic most demonstrable.

He's also very versed in the matters of theology
And once-forbidden knowledge that was hidden rather thoroughly;
He seeks a form of power for his people quite congruously
Though once his brother rather advocated for apostasy.

His actions of great notice are most often diplomatical,
He is the very model of a goblin theocratical!

[Fyraltari]

He has allies martial, psionic, and most puissantly magical,
He demonstrates command of subjects doctrinal and national,
As well as divine mastery of magic most demonstrable.

He's also very versed in the matters of theology
And once-forbidden knowledge that was hidden rather thoroughly;
He seeks a form of power for his people quite congruously
Though once his brother rather advocated for apostasy.

His actions of great notice are most often diplomatical,
He is the very model of a goblin theocratical!

I. Love. This.

[Larsaan]

What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

Your mileage may vary on whether her showing up in the first place counts as an asspull, but it's not at all uncommon for older dragons to be mid-to-high level spellcasters. And she didn't really have a "counter build" so much as one specific spell (anti-magic field), which she may well have gone out of her way to obtain after learning that her target was a wizard.

I do agree with you regarding Celia, though. While I personally find it interesting whenever true pacifists show up in fiction, almost everything she did in that book felt super jarring compared to her previous appearances, to the point that she might as well have been a different character. A reboot version of Celia, if you will.