OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Roy's brother was killed by their father because his warnings were ignored. Is it any surprise the concept of letting children enter dangerous situations is touchy to him?

[ZhonLord]

Roy's brother was killed by their father because his warnings were ignored. Is it any surprise the concept of letting children enter dangerous situations is touchy to him?

And Julia wasn't born in time to have memory of that situation, so she has no means by which to understand Roy's feelings in that matter. Plus, as she said quite a long time ago, "I'm True Neutral. I go both ways."

[faustin]

Damn, Roy was not joking here. Julia really took after their father.

[Kish]

Until I saw how few people had shifted their positions, I thought this was where Rich went all the way to as good as saying it.

So that I can be on the record: That's Eugene. Not Julia. Not Sabine. Not Serini pretending to be Julia pretending to be Eugene pretending to be Julia. 100% Eugene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm confused. If he wanted to have a conversation about tactics, and that is a topic Roy allows him, why the deception? It would be more useful if he wanted to have a personal conversation, but of course Julia has different personal shared experiences with Roy. I'm sure there are five other categories of conversation that impersonation would help with, but the caller isn't doing those.

Because he didn't have any new information to provide; he first needed some from Roy so that he could discuss tactics.

There is also the obvious subtext that his own son would rather not talk to him at all, so as an illusionist shaky on the meaning of both "Lawful" and "Good", he might have thought that this might avoid any further unpleasantness (while still getting him the attention fix he wants).

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

If Roy is to be damned, he'll be damned for what he truly is.

If I may offer a bit of word smithing...damned for who he really is
Up to you if you like the blue pencil or not.

[URL="https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html"] Eugene is bored and wants to talk; here, he'd be skirting the issue by pretending to be Julia, which gives him enough information he can at least have a conversation about tactics, one of the subjects Roy does allow him.

Which makes this 'last panel' an unintentional discovery by Roy.

To me it's quite clear why Eugene would do this (if he's indeed impersonating Julia), but not so clear why The Giant would. I don't see what kind of value it'd add to the story or how it'd play into the main plot or any existing subplot.

In support of your point, getting Roy (green hat) to call out "ends does not justify the means" (ever) is a parallel to Redcloak (green skin) leaning into "ends justifies the means" thematically.

But I would accept it if an adult chose to be sacrificial bait in order to save the world. That's not a pawn; it's an adult making his or her own moral decision.

That's what the Order and Roy are doing, with a slight tweak in wording: they are risking their lives to save the world. They may or may not end up sacrificing their lives as Kraagor did.

The US military allows enlistment at 17. It isn't common, and given training times, it's very unlikely that any 17 year olds are seeing combat in the modern military. But 17 is old enough to volunteer and take the oath.

My dad did that back in 1945. It was a lot more common before the major draw down in the 90's and the military could afford to start being a little pickier in their entrance methodology. I had a number of sailors in my squadrons who enlisted (parent/guardian release required, and it was in their service records) at 17.

Note here, where Durkon has the then 16 year old Julia follow him into combat rather than stay where it's safe and then the next strip, where he sends her off into danger and combat without any adult supervision. In tOotS world, Julia is old enough to put into combat in an emergency; and the potential end of the world is in fact an emergency.

And she shot up a giant caterpillar, didn't she?

While I did bet a quataloo on Eugene, if that isn't Julia, I think that this strip leans more toward "It's Julia" than not.

[Ruck]

Sabrini

Did Sabine and Serini merge?

I'm finally understanding the Eugene argument. The Geekery thread says he's Lawful Good, is that consistent with sacrificing Sunny?

I don't think he's Lawful Good at all, myself, and I'm surprised that thread came to that as a definite conclusion.

Well, This seems like a big emotional moment between brother and sister, it'd be kinda weird to have that and then reveal Julia as an imposter. But I'm still doubting things.

Why would she say "up there"?



Oh, there you are Dad. I didn't see you hiding in my sister's entire personality like that.

Until I saw how few people had shifted their positions, I thought this was where Rich went all the way to as good as saying it.

So that I can be on the record: That's Eugene. Not Julia. Not Sabine. Not Serini pretending to be Julia pretending to be Eugene pretending to be Julia. 100% Eugene.

I can definitely buy it at this point. What has me curious is whether this was the case in her last appearance as well.

[Kish]

I can definitely buy it at this point. What has me curious is whether this was the case in her last appearance as well.

I'd say not. In her last appearance she was acting like Julia, including taking friendly jabs at Roy and rolling with his. In this one, the mind behind her image is unambiguously someone who has no comprehension of Roy taking a jab and not meaning "I sincerely hate you."

Also, in her first appearance she criticized Eugene.

Because he didn't have any new information to provide; he first needed some from Roy so that he could discuss tactics.

My answer would actually be: Because the last time Eugene offered a solution that seemed perfectly reasonable to him, Roy refused flatly to consider it and called it a "charming pro-omnicide hot take." And Eugene, having the moral sense of someone who definitely does not belong in Celestia, decided this was clearly about Roy's silly grudge against him for pointing out the objective inferiority of his class choice a few times and not, e.g., "letting all the dwarves die for your convenience is horrifying," and that if he just presented the same perfectly reasonable and rational types of ideas in an appearance that doesn't inspire Roy's hostility, Roy would give them the consideration they're due.

[dancrilis]

The ends don't justify the means. Ever.

What if the means aren't that bad (maybe a bit pricey) and the ends are good?

i.e spend a diamond to bring a friend back to life.

Doesn't such a end justify such a means?

To take things to the (potentially ridiculous) extreme saying 'The ends don't justify the means. Ever.' would seem to be to say that no ends ever justify any means, which seems to lead to mass starvation as the end of having food would not justify the means of putting in the effort to get food.

The Geekery thread says he's Lawful Good, is that consistent with sacrificing Sunny?

Yes and no - it depends on your DM.

One DM might have a lawful good king faced with an invasion of demons conscript every able-bodied person, and children might make good scouts if they are small size and thereby have benefits to stealth even knowing that some would almost certainly get caught by the enemy - another DM might think that only an evil king would even use conscription regardless of age or threat etc.



On the topic I am now leaning towards Eugene - just some of the comments here seem like him to me.

[InvisibleBison]

What if the means aren't that bad (maybe a bit pricey) and the ends are good?

i.e spend a diamond to bring a friend back to life.

Doesn't such a end justify such a means?

To take things to the (potentially ridiculous) extreme saying 'The ends don't justify the means. Ever.' would seem to be to say that no ends ever justify any means, which seems to lead to mass starvation as the end of having food would not justify the means of putting in the effort to get food.

There's nothing morally problematic about expending or producing resources. If the means aren't immoral, they don't need to be justified, and so the notion of "the ends justify the means" doesn't apply.

[Peelee]

Until I saw how few people had shifted their positions, I thought this was where Rich went all the way to as good as saying it.

So that I can be on the record: That's Eugene. Not Julia. Not Sabine. Not Serini pretending to be Julia pretending to be Eugene pretending to be Julia. 100% Eugene.

Panel 11 is what's killing it for me. I don't see Eugene acting that way, with a sincere smile as a response to Roy shooting the idea down permanently and then accepting the apology. That being said, I won't be surprised if it's Eugene. I just reverted back to thinking it's legit Julia. If it's not, it's definitely not anyone else.

Also, as to your first point of the author all but saying it, Roy should be smart enough to pick up on that if that's the case. Again, won't be surprised if it does turn out to be Eugene, but I'm going with optimism for now.

I'd say not.

Agreed for the reasons listed. And also for the reasons for you list at the end about Roy shooting down Eugene's genocidal plan, that's why I don't trust the apology and smile here to be him.

What if the means aren't that bad (maybe a bit pricey) and the ends are good?

i.e spend a diamond to bring a friend back to life.

That doesn't need justification at all.

[dancrilis]

There's nothing morally problematic about expending or producing resources. If the means aren't immoral, they don't need to be justified, and so the notion of "the ends justify the means" doesn't apply.

At times people need to justify expanses etc, there is no need for a moral component to require a justification.

Also expending vital resources could have a moral compenent and producing certain resources could have a moral component.

For instance expending souls or producing undead - could be seen through a moral lense.

That doesn't need justification at all.

Your party might have more the one dead friend or there might be a starving family who could do with the money from the diamond - a justification could be requested even if you think one is not needed, and any topic could have someone saying 'I don't need to justify X'.

[elros]

I admit I am biased because I think that Eugene will somehow sacrifice himself to stop Xykon or the Snarl, so I am inclined to believe that the apparition is Eugene. He is just too stubborn to show himself or apologize to Roy, even though he is proud of him.

That said, no way it is Sabine!

[Kish]

Also, as to your first point of the author all but saying it, Roy should be smart enough to pick up on that if that's the case.

And he should have been smart enough to realize that Belkar was killing people whenever he was out of Roy's sight, that he should let the deva finish rather than waving them off with "you're not saying anything I don't already know," and that if Haley was standing in front of him trying to get something through to him "really, move before I have to Bull Rush you" was not the best response. But, as Greg pointed out here, Roy can be amazingly stupid for an essentially intelligent person.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Panel 11 is what's killing it for me. I don't see Eugene acting that way, with a sincere smile as a response to Roy shooting the idea down permanently and then accepting the apology.

No, but he is pretending to be Julia. He might have it easier to pretend to give an apology when he is pretending to be someone else.

GW

[Crusher]

At times people need to justify expanses etc, there is no need for a moral component to require a justification.

Also expending vital resources could have a moral compenent and producing certain resources could have a moral component.

For instance expending souls or producing undead - could be seen through a moral lense.


Your party might have more the one dead friend or there might be a starving family who could do with the money from the diamond - a justification could be requested even if you think one is not needed, and any topic could have someone saying 'I don't need to justify X'.

"Ends not justifying the means" doesn't mean you have to selflessly give everything you own to someone more destitute than yourself, even if you had a very good use for the resources yourself. That is way, way, way above and beyond the call of duty.

[Kish]

No, but he is pretending to be Julia. He might have it easier to pretend to give an apology when he is pretending to be someone else.

GW

Indeed; appearing as someone else would be wholly pointless if Eugene was just going to get that person put on Roy's "don't listen to" list as well. I also think there's a very real chance that Eugene heard the first fourteen words Roy said in the eleventh panel and was genuinely moved to smile, before Roy clarified that Julia's age was any part of what he was saying.

[Ruck]

I admit I am biased because I think that Eugene will somehow sacrifice himself to stop Xykon or the Snarl

I don't think "self-sacrifice" is in Eugene's vocabulary.

And he should have been smart enough to realize that Belkar was killing people whenever he was out of Roy's sight, that he should let the deva finish rather than waving them off with "you're not saying anything I don't already know," and that if Haley was standing in front of him trying to get something through to him "really, move before I have to Bull Rush you" was not the best response. But, as Greg pointed out here, Roy can be amazingly stupid for an essentially intelligent person.

Yeah, one of Roy's biggest faults, or maybe his biggest, is that he's intelligent enough that he always thinks he's the smartest person in any room he's in and there isn't anything he can learn from anyone else.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think "self-sacrifice" is in Eugene's vocabulary.

Rich has surprised us before ... but I'll bet the under. The various head canons tossed about in re a Belkarian sacrifice are as, even more, likely.

But I'll drift a bit further off topic and propose this: V has expressed to Roy a desire to atone for the familicide.
Maybe the supreme sacrifice will be accomplished by V.

[Peelee]

For instance expending souls or producing undead - could be seen through a moral lense.

So could eating an orange but I'm not going to bother entertaining that either.

And he should have been smart enough to realize that Belkar was killing people whenever he was out of Roy's sight, that he should let the deva finish rather than waving them off with "you're not saying anything I don't already know," and that if Haley was standing in front of him trying to get something through to him "really, move before I have to Bull Rush you" was not the best response. But, as Greg pointed out here, Roy can be amazingly stupid for an essentially intelligent person.

Yeah, one of Roy's biggest faults, or maybe his biggest, is that he's intelligent enough that he always thinks he's the smartest person in any room he's in and there isn't anything he can learn from anyone else.

Fair.

No, but he is pretending to be Julia. He might have it easier to pretend to give an apology when he is pretending to be someone else.

GW

Except the "he's Eugene" theory is predicate on that he is not doing a good job of pretending to be Julia. Which isn't to say he's going to mess up on everything, but an apology and a seemingly-genuine smile after seem like they should be beyond Eugene's acting scope. Or at least would be vying with his ego.

[theNater]

My answer would actually be: Because the last time Eugene offered a solution that seemed perfectly reasonable to him, Roy refused flatly to consider it and called it a "charming pro-omnicide hot take." And Eugene, having the moral sense of someone who definitely does not belong in Celestia, decided this was clearly about Roy's silly grudge against him for pointing out the objective inferiority of his class choice a few times and not, e.g., "letting all the dwarves die for your convenience is horrifying," and that if he just presented the same perfectly reasonable and rational types of ideas in an appearance that doesn't inspire Roy's hostility, Roy would give them the consideration they're due.

But Roy doesn't give such ideas any more consideration coming from Julia than from Eugene. So now the question is why Eugene would maintain the illusion after seeing it doesn't work.

That said, I'm less firm on it being Julia than I was before. Panel 10 is just weird enough to make me wonder.

[Tubercular Ox]

To me it's quite clear why Eugene would do this (if he's indeed impersonating Julia), but not so clear why The Giant would. I don't see what kind of value it'd add to the story or how it'd play into the main plot or any existing subplot. That's usually how it goes with plot twists until they actually happen, though.

Okay, so, having one example doesn't equate to having confidence that Rich is pursuing that example, but what if Rich were going for the storyline where the son who wants his father's respect only earns it after giving up on wanting or needing his father's respect? Movies with this subplot usually have a scene of the father looking on as the son lives an independent life, never communicating his respect to the son but letting the audience know that the son helped the father grow. Eugene is already set up for that, looking from afar is his thing.

If Rich were doing that, and if this is Eugene disguised as Julia, then the Giant could be setting Eugene up to learn that Roy has a different personality and different ideas when he's not burdened by their relationship. There's friction right now because Eugene is still burdened by the relationship, but he's trying, darn it, whatever his motives for trying are.

If this is what Rich is doing, he wants us to see these scenes so that Eugene doesn't pop up in the denouement and say, "I forgive you, son," with nothing behind it.

On the other hand, maybe Rich wants the opposite of that. Or maybe he wants 95% of that then subvert it hard at the end. I could write just as long a post about Sabine, but probably not about "It's just Julia" since that's a null hypothesis and null hypotheses are hard to defend positively.

[WanderingMist]

Yeah, one of Roy's biggest faults, or maybe his biggest, is that he's intelligent enough that he always thinks he's the smartest person in any room he's in and there isn't anything he can learn from anyone else.

I wonder which parent he got that from. Also, given how much of a trainwreck the party was to start with, this was, in fact, true for a good portion of the strip.

[137beth]

Wow, it's really nice to see a healthy(ish) sibling dynamic in this world!

[OvisCaedo]

The couple instances of odd language do seem reminiscent of Eugene... But even if it is the real Julia, this strip at least felt like a lot more meaningful character development and interaction!

[woweedd]

I don't think "self-sacrifice" is in Eugene's vocabulary.



Yeah, one of Roy's biggest faults, or maybe his biggest, is that he's intelligent enough that he always thinks he's the smartest person in any room he's in and there isn't anything he can learn from anyone else.

Probably in part gotten from Eugene. Both in terms of Eugene also considering himself the smartest man in every room everywhere, and also in how the incident almost certainly played a part in imparting on Roy his unwillingness to trust other people's competence. After all, his dad was an adult who was supposed to be in charge, supposed to know better. Roy accepted that, because he was 6, and, well...That incident imparted on Roy a firm understanding that people, even people in authority over him, could screw up massively if he wasn't willing to tell them when they were doing something bad, hence his unwillingness to trust in someone else knowing what they're doing. Also, ya know, given what his party was like for most of the comic...Can you blame him?

[wilphe]

Yeah, one of Roy's biggest faults, or maybe his biggest, is that he's intelligent enough that he always thinks he's the smartest person in any room he's in and there isn't anything he can learn from anyone else.

Examples?


I have never got that vibe from Roy - he knows he has decent mental stats but not the best. He might have had that in the early DCF days before the rest of the party had character growth and couldn't be relied on - but that's a long time ago now.


Even at the siege of Azure City he's prepared to listen to Haley about the shell game


If anyone in the order gave me that vibe to me it would be pre-familicide V

[Windscion]

Y'know, I am more and more wondering if "Pawn these visits off on Julia!" went wrong somehow.

[Ruck]

Examples?

Kish literally offered several significant ones already in the post I was responding to.

[danielxcutter]

It's less being stupid and more finding new lush fields of idiocy in the highlands of smartness.