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2014-01-08, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Wouldn't the more interesting question at this stage be: How would you create the fellowship using D&D 3.5 rules?
Aragorn: Dunedain ranger (Ranger//Paladin gestalt class)
Legolas: Elf ranger, archery track
Gimli: Dwarf fighter
Boromir: Human knight (with Diehard feat)
Merry: Halfling fighter/knight (?)
Pippin: Halfling fighter/knight (?)
Sam: Halfling scout
Frodo: Halfling aristocrat/scout
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2014-01-08, 05:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Actually the Uruk Hai have never retreated in the course of the books, not once, they're professional soldiers, and professional soldiers don't cut and run, not if there's a good chance of victory. And there would be a good chance of victory with odds of 100 to 3, also the Uruk-Hai are most decidedly not just standard Orcs they are clearly dramatically superior, as such they are higher than 1/2 CR, of course provided that you can model the orcs in LoTR with standard orcs, which as we've shown, you can't.
Those are standard Orcs, the Uruk-Hai generally are much more disciplined than the the standard Orcs.
Actually Ranger is a terrible class for Aragorn, he'd have to have given up both spell casting and his animal companion. Most of his shown abilities are leadership related, I think a Warblade with a focus in White Raven stuff would be probably a good model for him, much closer to his demonstrated stuff, if you were trying to build him. I would make Boromir a Frenzied Berserker or some such, he certainly was able to take what is described as an incredible amount of damage without falling, so he probably only fell when his Frenzy ended, he's also shown to be brash and have a temper, so that could be a good model for him. Sam is clearly not a Scout, and there's at least a few scenes where he shows himself to be a fighter (particularly the scenes in the Tower after the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, and the Scouring of the Shire) I would give him starting levels in Expert, and then later on give him some levels in a martial class. I would also make Merry and Pippin distinct since they were in different cultures, I would argue that the Rohirrim were not lawful and therefore a knight would be less of a good representation of Merry who also violated the rules on multiple occasions, such as riding into battle when he was told not to, so that could work well for him.
I actually agree with Aristocrat for Frodo, Legolas and Gimli could be modeled as you suggest, although I would make Gimli a crusader, if we make Aragorn a Warblade.
Again this is a fairly arbitrary model based on my recollection and level could be decided pretty arbitrarily.Last edited by AMFV; 2014-01-08 at 05:25 AM.
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2014-01-08, 05:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
I feel that the discussion would proceed more smoothly if all involved steered clear of saying that this or that or the other point currently under dispute was "clearly" one thing or another, especially without providing any other argument. Similarly for skipping ahead and saying that something has been "shown" when there are still posters that disagree with that showing.
Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2014-01-08, 05:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Are you making the assertion that the Orcs were the same in D&D as they are in LoTR, when there are pretty clearly more than cosmetic differences? We can't assume their CR which is the point of that statement, any more than we can assume the Balrogs' CR.
Well to my mind Sam is best represented by a class that's not a scout, the only instances of him hiding or displaying survival talents were helped by magical items and not accomplished with mundane equipment.
Edit (2): Naturally I'm not going to argue any stance that I don't agree with, and for me the stances I agree with are going to be "clearly" to me. I was bringing up the Orc point since it was kind of glossed over at best and then they were unable to produce a monster with the same characteristics without homebrew, as such it is clearly not the Orcs from 3.5, I believe that was pretty established as several people have noticed that the qualities were not the same.Last edited by AMFV; 2014-01-08 at 06:37 AM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-01-08, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2014-01-08, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Well then if you aren't making an argument, then why comment on my particular style of making an argument, this isn't a formal debate, and you aren't a debate moderator. I mean you have every right to comment on what you believe to be inappropriate debate style, but I don't feel that's contributing to the discussion, since again there's no rule that I'd be breaking and therefore it falls down into being a matter of personal debate style.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-01-08, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Originally Posted by Bogardan_Mage
You've been watching too many movies. Saruman did not create the Uruk-hai, they existed long before the events of LotR. Saruman just employed them during the War of the Ring.
Originally Posted by Broken Crown
I thought the issue of conflating Tolkien's characters with Jackson's had already been addressed in this thread.
Originally Posted by AMFV
...professional soldiers don't cut and run, not if there's a good chance of victory.
.Last edited by Palanan; 2014-01-08 at 07:55 AM.
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2014-01-08, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
It's certainly not a general case, most battles do not include professional armies simply breaking ranks and running.Those battles are known as fiascos, it's an unusual situation.
In any case even if the first few were cut down in a 100 to 3 battle they would like likely continue to fight.
Edit: It's also extremely unlikely that with overwhelming odds on their side that they would cut and run. Since LoTR has a fairly realistic view on combat that isn't CR based that fight would clearly result in a loss.Last edited by AMFV; 2014-01-08 at 08:01 AM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-01-08, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Aren't T.orcs closer to goblins and Uruk-hai to hobgoblins than orcs? (Keyword: "closer")
Last edited by Larkas; 2014-01-08 at 08:25 AM.
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2014-01-08, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Possibly, although Goblins are capable of feats of intelligence and engineering and stealth that don't really fit with Orcs in 3.5, there's not really a good fit for them. You might be able to argue closer, really you'd be better off creating your own race for it, if you want a really good model.
But the point is that you can't base your predictive model with the CR of standard orcs, without conceding that there are other factors, they aren't exactly the same.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-01-08, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-01-08, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Actually, expected value of 1D3 is 2. 1/3 * 1 + 1/3 * 2 + 3/3 = 2.
Wut?
You aren't going to get any fractions from 1D3 or any dice. So the D&D ruling has no effect on calculating the average damage. Not to mention that the average isn't 1.5 but 2!Last edited by Jokunen; 2014-01-08 at 09:05 AM.
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2014-01-08, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Standard LotR orcs are probably better statted as D&D goblins, while Uruk-Hai are stronger and larger (almost man-size(!))
Also, this was discussed at length not that long ago: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...php?p=16410123
Ok for warblade//paladin gestalt regarding Aragon, but certainly not Boromir as a frenzied berserker. If anything he's a knight 20, sporting loyal beyond death!
Legolas seems to have acquired the ranger spell hunter's mercy as an at-will SLA.
Sam seems to be high survival skill, at least, and all hobbits have more or less functional HiPS.
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2014-01-08, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Well I would question his lawfulness, although it's definitely open to interpretation, either case would work, although I was trying for something that might not need epic level. I don't think Aragorn really would be well represented by a Paladin, since he doesn't have casting, can't detect evil, doesn't have a special mount, and as far as we can tell would be as effective at fighting neutral folk as the others might.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-01-08, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
That's correct, but on the other hand he does seem to be immune to fear, he does have some kind of aura of courage effect on his companions as well, or perhaps inspire courage variant? He has some kind of healing proficiency that is out of the ordinary. As for spells it's hard to tell since no magic in LotR has an easy D&D counterpart. I would model magic more like SLA's than vancian casting, possibly including rituals.
Why isn't Boromir lawful? I don't see that at all. He probably has the flaw "Weak-willed"...
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2014-01-08, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Thought I would circle back to the ur-text, the original Dragon Magazine article:
http://kuoi.org/~kamikaze/RPG/gandalf.txt
So how do we reconcile our intuition with the bare facts? Well, for one thing, as I hinted above, the universe of LOTR was magic-weak. It is easy to assume that it was run by " a very tough DM" who rewarded experience so slowly that it would take 2000 years for a pseudo-angel to get to the 5th level, and 6000 years or so for an EHP to reach 12th. But it is still unsettling. I would rather place the blame on the scale we are using: the D&D magic system. It seems a more likely thing for Gygax and Arneson to misjudge the spell levels. So what can we do? Change the spell system, the experience system or the levels of the spells, or all of the above? What is your response?Last edited by johnbragg; 2014-01-08 at 09:28 AM.
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2014-01-08, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Did someone do the figures for Bard in the hobbit?
He clearly one shots a Dragon with a bow? What lvl and class can do that?
Lets assume that Smaug is at least an ancient dragon (maybe even wyrm?)
In the movie they add some fluff about larger bows and special arrows, in the book on the other hand Bard uses a normal bow and arrow (might be cool or improved weapons but not "High" magic - lets assume no more than +2?).
OK he hits a special vulnerable spot - lets treat that as a critical hit and also one that passes any damage resistence and so on. Since the dragon was not aware of him sneak attack could also be a possibility.
Now I don't know alot of D&D, but it seems to me Bard muist be above lvl 5....
Lets assume it is a large bow for 2d6 damage +2 for magic bow? and +8 for very high str and lvl modifier, lvl five adds 3d6 sneak attack (if Bard is a Rogue) for a maximum of 40 damage with all 5 d rolling a 6! Critical is times 3 if I remember correct so at most 120 damage. Even at lvl 15 he could not one shot a dragon (can someone calculate WHEN he will be able to with insanely lucky rolls of all dices showing maximum?)
I am not saying this to argue that Bard must be a certain lvl or that Aragorn must so as well (since he must be nearly as cool or more likely cooler than Bard). But that applying lvls to books makes no sense...
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2014-01-08, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
In MERP they have a crit table, one of the results is instant death.
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2014-01-08, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Actually, A guy here on giant made that build not too long ago. its a build based on ranger/rogue, and some finagling to get sneak attack up, uses maiming strike to change each 2d6 sneack attack damage to 1 cha damage. as cha damage it mults on crits. (I want to say he had 14d6 SA and turned it into 7 cha damage) from there you use hunters mercy to auto threat and you multishot blessed and cursed arrows to autocrit anything that isn't neutral.
His example target was a gold dragon I believe. And he knocked it unconscious in a round with cha damage."So, what can your character do?"
"Mostly he just does stuff, but occasionally he decides to try some things."
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2014-01-08, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
There's also the Eberron example where the kings / queens are not necessarily the most powerful characters in their domains. In a modern world example, does anyone expect Barack Obama to be able to defeat JCOS Gen. Martin Dempsey in a mixed-martial arts competition in order to retain the Presidency? Or shall we replace Presidential debates with boxing matches?
That latter idea has some merit, but anyway ...
Your king is free to be a putz compared to his loyal bodyguards and generals. What he's got is levels in Aristocrat and Expert(ruler) that most people don't get.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2014-01-08, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2014-01-08, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
But Bard killed Smaug, meaning that incapacitation doesn't really count for the contest.
Yes, and if we were modeling Bard in MERP that would make it easy.
Well you could make a case for it, although he is the one who breaks the Fellowship, so it's definitely a moot point.
It's not really clear if he's actually immune to fear or just extremely strong willed, he does defeat Sauron in a contest of wills. The Inspiring his friends is why I went with the White Raven, you could make an argument for multiclassing Bard, especially since he explicitly uses the Lay of Luthien to fight against evil creatures.
Which might even work as a thing in AD&D, but it really doesn't in 3.5. Also you'd have to be modeling them as PCs, which they aren't, or at least could very easily not be. There is no "DM" in Tolkien so anything that you put in there to that effect corrupts and puts noise into the model.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-01-08, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Originally Posted by AMFV
Possibly, although Goblins are capable of feats of intelligence and engineering and stealth that don't really fit with Orcs in 3.5, there's not really a good fit for them.
Originally Posted by johnbragg
Thought I would circle back to the ur-text, the original Dragon Magazine article....
.Last edited by Palanan; 2014-01-08 at 10:07 AM.
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2014-01-08, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Last edited by cerin616; 2014-01-08 at 10:01 AM.
"So, what can your character do?"
"Mostly he just does stuff, but occasionally he decides to try some things."
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2014-01-08, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
The Hobbit noval is even more hectic for judging power levels then LOTR, I probably wouldn't even go there. Bard was either an soloing NPC that served as a pivotal plot device to account for player screw up, or a player who rolled exceedingly lucky. Just either way, he got extremely lucky and killed a dragon. I don't feel it's possible to read into it any more then that, only that it happened climatically.
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2014-01-08, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
True, I may concede that point, although it doesn't match the fluff for maiming strike at all, which lowers your Charisma by maiming you, and I know that the fluff isn't exactly the most important thing, but it should count for something if we're trying to make a more exact model.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-01-08, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
"So, what can your character do?"
"Mostly he just does stuff, but occasionally he decides to try some things."
-On skill monkeys.
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2014-01-08, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-01-08, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
Originally Posted by cerin616
Well according to the book, the arrow hit smaug in his weak spot, he cried in pain, he fell into the lake, and was dead. It doesn't say what killed him per say.
EDIT: That's assuming i remember the text correctly.
.Last edited by Palanan; 2014-01-08 at 10:15 AM.
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2014-01-08, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda
The arrow disappeared into the left side of Smaug's chest, shaft, feathers and all. Then Smaug shrieked, flew up a ways suddenly, and then fell on Laketown, sinking into the lake.
Given the attention to the side the arrow hit, and how deep it went, I think it's fair to assume that the arrow killed him.My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook