Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

[Platypusbill]

Do you think it's worthwhile for an Open Hand Monk who dips Cleric to use the Bane spell? Bane is essentially the opposite of Bless, but IMO generally inferior because of multiple reasons:
A) the targeted enemies are unaffected if they succeed on a Charisma save, while Bless always works
B) enemies are generally weaker/more numerous than party members, so a penalty to three enemies is weaker than an equal bonus to three party members
C) once an enemy goes down, the effect for that enemy is lost
D) maintaining concentration is easier with Bless if you target yourself, as it boosts your own saving throws

However, the idea is that you would use Bane to increase the chances of succesful Stunning Strikes and to a lesser extent Open Hand Technique prone/push effects, basically crippling the enemy by spamming save-or-suck effects.

[PeteNutButter]

Do you think it's worthwhile for an Open Hand Monk who dips Cleric to use the Bane spell? Bane is essentially the opposite of Bless, but IMO generally inferior because of multiple reasons:
A) the targeted enemies are unaffected if they succeed on a Charisma save, while Bless always works
B) enemies are generally weaker/numerous than party members, so a penalty to them is weaker than an equal bonus to allies
C) once an enemy goes down, the effect for that enemy is lost
D) maintaining concentration is easier with Bless if you target yourself, as it boosts your own saving throws

However, the idea is that you would use Bane to increase the chances of succesful Stunning Strikes and to a lesser extent Open Hand Technique prone/push effects, basically crippling the enemy by spamming save-or-suck effects.

I've honestly never seen Bane cast. Debuff spells in general are fairly weak as most combats last no more than a few rounds. Since it offers a save, it stands to reason that someone could instead just cast a spell on the foe that is actually debilitating. I'd say the math on Bane probably isn't worth it unless you are confident that the fight will last a long time. If you or your teammates have high AC, the attack penalty is probably nice. So if you can stick it on the BBEG, go for it. Don't bother with mooks.

Bless will always be better as it is more offensive and save free.

[Jrpergande78]

I have a quick question for you.

I'm currently playing g gloomstalker and looking at your guide you have fighter or rogue as a viable multi class.

In the fighter you said the following
"Human V. (SS)
Gloomstalker 5+/Battlemaster 4
10, 16, 14, 8, 16, 8

Gloomstalker + Action surge + Precision Strike on SS arrows. 'Nuff said."

The question I have is, what is SS arrows?

[quark12000]

Sharpshooter.

[RMcD]

Wish you'd write guides for all the classes since no one else bothers to update theirs in three years

[strangebloke]

Wish you'd write guides for all the classes since no one else bothers to update theirs in three years

Most of the classes have up-to-date guides on this site.... Not all of them are great, but they're mostly up-to-date.

[PeteNutButter]

Wish you'd write guides for all the classes since no one else bothers to update theirs in three years

But this is a guide for every class.


If I had more space, I'd expand it even more to cover more info on the single classes. Perhaps when the next big book comes out I'll be motivated to make more guides due to space limitations.

[RMcD]

Well you could always start a new thread and reserve more posts for yourself.

The fighting stye is probably duelist on a traditional monk.

Why would monks be duellist? They can't even use a shield so there's no reason not to use two weapons no? And if they were wielding a single weapon well it'd be a heavy one not a one hander.

Wouldn't two weapon fighting be the classic monk? Two fists afterall.

[RMcD]

Most of the classes have up-to-date guides on this site.... Not all of them are great, but they're mostly up-to-date.

Please link those for me because when I search around I don't see anything.

Even the guide to guides hasn't been updated in years

[Armored Walrus]

All the ones authored by EvilAnagram have been recently updated, and are in the guide of guides.

[strangebloke]

Please link those for me because when I search around I don't see anything.

Even the guide to guides hasn't been updated in years

You can easily Google this, I'm not providing links.

Evil anagram has guides for druid, Paladin, warlock, Sorcerer, ranger, bard, and cleric.

Hymer has an up to date druid guide.

Treant monk has a wizard guide and a xgte guide. Their separate but both useful.

You're missing fighter, barbarian, and rogue, I think. But those builds are much simpler, imo.

[EvilAnagram]

You can easily Google this, I'm not providing links.

Evil anagram has guides for druid, Paladin, warlock, Sorcerer, ranger, bard, and cleric.

Hymer has an up to date druid guide.

Treant monk has a wizard guide and a xgte guide. Their separate but both useful.

You're missing fighter, barbarian, and rogue, I think. But those builds are much simpler, imo.

I don't like advertising my guide in other guides, but I should correct this. I have guides for Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, and Warlock. Links are in my signature.

[PeteNutButter]

Why would monks be duellist? They can't even use a shield so there's no reason not to use two weapons no? And if they were wielding a single weapon well it'd be a heavy one not a one hander.

Wouldn't two weapon fighting be the classic monk? Two fists afterall.

The best weapon for a pure monk is a staff or a spear. They deal 1d8 when wielded in two hands. For a Kensei it'd be a longsword, warhammer, or battle axe for that versatile d10.

The dueling FS is the only FS that does anything for most monks. It gives +2 damage when using a weapon such as a shortsword moving your damage from 1d8 to 1d6+2, which is one better on average and more consistent. Additionally by level 11 that shortsword is dealing 1d8 (the same as using a staff or spear with two hands) but still gets to add that +2.

TWF does nothing for a monk. 1) Your fists do not qualify as melee weapons so you can't TWF with hands. 2) You already have a built in bonus action attack that would compete with TWF, so there is no reason to use TWF.

No fighting style helps unarmed strikes in any way.

*I am of course ignoring UA FS options, as I always ignore UA*

[RMcD]

Thanks for the Guide pointers, wish the Guide to Guides had a last updated on each Guide I obviously missed EvilAnagrams (in part because I didn't look at every guide in part because those I did look at I checked last edit part of the first post and assumed not in 2018 was out dated)

Thanks for the tips on FS. I definitely misunderstood the interactions between monk weapons and fighting style. I'm following your Kensei build but going for 4 Ranger first (though I'd be tempted to drop Monk at 5, 8 or 12 rather than take it to 16, though that's some long term planning I don't think will matter), do you think it's worth it to take the hit on not getting it later? It'll be a while until using a weapon as a monk weapon will be better (level 11 I think), and in that time I could use two weapons. There's also the benefit that Kensei can use Deft Strike with two weapon fighting which you can't do with fists. The alternative would be archery which is good all the time, but hitting isn't usually the problem. I guess it makes it easier to use Sharpshooter. Though I guess if you're small it's less good since you'll want to go double hand crossbows instead.

[shanemabus]

Though I guess if you're small it's less good since you'll want to go double hand crossbows instead.

Actually, the way that crossbows are written, there are no rules written for preloading a crossbow. Meaning that the only way to load it is when you take the attack action with the crossbow. Which in turn means, you also need a free hand in order to load a crossbow.

This makes hand crossbows both confusing and just bad options compared to its heavier versions. The creators realized this and created that special line in crossbow expert to make them even viable.

Crossbow expert let's you ignore the loading property of crossbows, letting you make multiple attacks with them. Then, if you make a one handed attack(namely a hand crossbow since you have to have a free hand to load it) you can make a bonus attack with the hand crossbow.

Meaning, the only time a hand crossbow is worth it is if you take crossbow expert because it gives you the option to make an extra attack over its counterparts.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Arkhios]

This makes hand crossbows both confusing and just bad options compared to its heavier versions. The creators realized this and created that special line in crossbow expert to make them even viable.

Note that everything doesn't exist for a mechanical benefit. There are also stylistic reasons to consider.

[shanemabus]

Note that everything doesn't exist for a mechanical benefit. There are also stylistic reasons to consider.

That was never my point. I was addressing the issue because, as the rules are written, you can not wield two hand crossbows at the same time.

Again, unless I'm wrong.

Clearly, there are flavor weapons. Just look at the trident, scimitar, and whip.

However, with the combo of crossbow expert and sharpshooter, this would make a hand crossbow much more powerful than most other ranged weapons. This is because you get more attacks with a hand crossbow for delivering the power attack damage of sharpshooter. Combo this with the archery fighting style and many attacks of the fighter class and you have a very powerful build.

So I would argue, that with the right feats, hand crossbows are the optimal choice.

[ZorroGames]

One build confuses me

Bard dip Fighter, Mountain Dwarf, ST 17 DE 8 CO 14 IN 8 WI 10 CH 15.

That, given +2 ST and +2 CO seems to total 24 points.
Points in build:
9+2 for ST. (9)
0 for DE.
4+2 for CO. (13)
0 for IN.
2 for WI. (15)
9 for CH. (24)
3 unused?

Maybe up WI or up DE/IN a bit?

Otherwise good enough it is on my AL Mountain Dwarf “must build soon” list. Go War Drummer!

[PeteNutButter]

One build confuses me

Bard dip Fighter, Mountain Dwarf, ST 17 DE 8 CO 14 IN 8 WI 10 CH 15.

That, given +2 ST and +2 CO seems to total 24 points.
Points in build:
9+2 for ST. (9)
0 for DE.
4+2 for CO. (13)
0 for IN.
2 for WI. (15)
9 for CH. (24)
3 unused?

Maybe up WI or up DE/IN a bit?

Otherwise good enough it is on my AL Mountain Dwarf “must build soon” list. Go War Drummer!

Slap those points on Con and get a 16 to start. Otherwise you just have some more odd numbers. The MC is a bit too MAD to spare a resilient feat for wisdom, at least for a while. I'm presuming swords bard? You'll want that cha up for flourish uses.

[ZorroGames]

Slap those points on Con and get a 16 to start. Otherwise you just have some more odd numbers. The MC is a bit too MAD to spare a resilient feat for wisdom, at least for a while. I'm presuming swords bard? You'll want that cha up for flourish uses.

Yes, Swords. Yeah, CO. Gracias.

[Xihirli]

The Bard/Cleric multiclass states that the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard X has been rendered obsolete by Healing Spirit. Isn't the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard 6 who takes Healing Spirit as a Magical Secret still one of the best healers in the game?

[Miracle_Matter]

The Bard/Cleric multiclass states that the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard X has been rendered obsolete by Healing Spirit. Isn't the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard 6 who takes Healing Spirit as a Magical Secret still one of the best healers in the game?

The thing with healing spirit is that it is so OP, lots of DMs that I met completely debuff the spell, usually to make it so that it can only be cast in combat. Also, you can't make the healing spirit go through multiple people to heal all of them at once on your turn, those people have to move into the 5ft cube on their turn. Ask your DM first and talk to him/her on what he/she thinks about the spell before equipping it and completely sucker punching all the DM's expectations, making it so that he/she could even ban the spell completely right then and there.

On another note, I think that even if the spell is debuffed, the cleric/bard(lore) multiclass is still one of the strongest healers. Other healer multiclasses that are on the same level would, in my opinion, be the cleric/sorcerer(divine soul) and the cleric/druid(shepherd). Both would probably be really fun.

[ZorroGames]

Talking shop about D&D

I mention

“...
Triton
Paladin 6+/Swords Bard 5
16, 8, 16, 8, 8, 16

Lots of synergy here. Plenty of slots to smite with and short rest recharge blade flourishes. If you can mix in a level of hexblade the whole thing becomes SAD for cha...”

One of my DMs - “... can’t, your +1 because of Triton is Volo’s Guide...”

[PeteNutButter]

The Bard/Cleric multiclass states that the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard X has been rendered obsolete by Healing Spirit. Isn't the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard 6 who takes Healing Spirit as a Magical Secret still one of the best healers in the game?

The bard option is still strong, it's just the entire strength of being able to pick up aura of vitality that normally isn't available until level 9 [paladin] is rendered rather pointless when a life cleric/druid can cast healing spirit at level 4. In the long run, it's not all that different, as they can both have healing spirit. The druid option just comes online much faster and is SAD as opposed to MAD. The bard option does have a good advantage in being able to wear metal armor without question.

[Jrpergande78]

Here's a question,

How viable would a bladelock with the improved blade pact and devil's sight/gloomstalker be?

The idea I have is being able to cast darkness then summon a pact now to fire away at the baddies, I understand I'd lose two actions. Unless there's a way to use darkness as a bonus action or the pact now, I'm in a homebrew campaign and received a longbow that I made a pact bow, but I never release it so there's no need to summon it.

[PeteNutButter]

Here's a question,

How viable would a bladelock with the improved blade pact and devil's sight/gloomstalker be?

The idea I have is being able to cast darkness then summon a pact now to fire away at the baddies, I understand I'd lose two actions. Unless there's a way to use darkness as a bonus action or the pact now, I'm in a homebrew campaign and received a longbow that I made a pact bow, but I never release it so there's no need to summon it.

I'm not sure I understand the action's you are describing. Why not just keep the bow out all the time and cast darkness with the other hand? You only need one free hand to cast. It's a bit fiddly with gloomstalker, and MAD. You want to use your first action to attack so you proc the extra attack from gloomstalker. If you are just looking for advantage on round one, assassin does the trick (providing you go first with your dex and wisdom to initiative) without the MADness in needing charisma. It'd be easier to just do fighter/warlock or pure warlock.

There are a few synergies with ranger/warlock, but you want to be aware of them all and try to maximize them to avoid gimping your build from the MADness.

[quark12000]

How has the ruling about Shield Master altered your recommendations for multiclassing?

[PeteNutButter]

How has the ruling about Shield Master altered your recommendations for multiclassing?

If your DM follows the ruling, then I'd probably just avoid taking the feat. It affects fighter/rogues and to a lesser extend barb/rogues, but that's about it. Those are still good classes to combine, and there are always plenty juicy feats to pick instead like sentinel.

[Jrpergande78]

I'm not sure I understand the action's you are describing. Why not just keep the bow out all the time and cast darkness with the other hand? You only need one free hand to cast. It's a bit fiddly with gloomstalker, and MAD. You want to use your first action to attack so you proc the extra attack from gloomstalker. If you are just looking for advantage on round one, assassin does the trick (providing you go first with your dex and wisdom to initiative) without the MADness in needing charisma. It'd be easier to just do fighter/warlock or pure warlock.

There are a few synergies with ranger/warlock, but you want to be aware of them all and try to maximize them to avoid gimping your build from the MADness.

The idea is to take advantage of the Gloomstaker's first move ability on the first turn. On the next turn cast darkness on self and from that point take advantage of not being seen even in the day.

[IskandarGreat]

Longtime GitP reader, first time commenter.

First, bravo on such a wonderfully put and detailed guide on a highly sought out and controversial subject. I'm equally impressed by your accomplishment and grateful for this source!

I skimmed the rest of the comments to make sure these wasn't already bought up, but I noticed a something I thought worth mentioning.

Since you mentioned using AL lass a baseline (and this is a particularly important thing for multiclassing), I couldn't help but notice that some of the examples you mention break the PHB + 1 rule for character creation.

Random Examples:
"Half Elf
Hexblade 5/Death Cleric 6+
8, 14, 14, 9, 14, 17"

Since Hexblade is XGtE, and Death Cleric is DMG, they cannot be combined (according to AL).

Even cantrips cannot cross the threshold:
"Human
Forge Cleric 8/War Wizard 2
16, 9, 14, 13, 16, 9

This build is a MADness struggle, but it isn't without it's perks. Booming Blade with a decent str score and the divine strike damage give it at decent at will melee capability..."

While both Forge cleric and War Wizard are XGtE, according to PHB + 1, no build can have access to BB or GFB if any part of their build comes from anything outside PHB + SCAG (if playing AL).

BB and GFB are incredible for many builds, but by AL, most cannot access it. This is especially important if you're building a Sorcadin. If you want BB/GFB both your Oath and Bloodline must come from PHB or SCAG.

I myself was very disappointed when I bought my
"Human V.
Fighter 1/Forge Cleric 6+
16, 10, 14, 8, 16, 8
Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade" - Melee Cleric to the table only to have the PHB + 1 rule pointed out.

I ended up switching it to:
"Human V.
Paladin 2/Tempest Cleric 6+
16, 8, 14, 8, 14, 13
Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade"

And still, while both classes are PHB, just having the cantrips from SCAG bar me from having any spells from XGtE or EE (according to AL).

Um.. I've rambled so much that I actually have no idea how to close this. I guess, if you're playing AL this is big, and if not then it's nothing.

Hope I didn't waste anyone's time.
The end.