afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[afroakuma]

By request, after a long hiatus, we begin the seventh thread in the series. Having noted a tendency for questions to get beyond Planescape very quickly, I've accepted the inevitable and put it up in the title. The last six threads have covered a lot of ground, and I hope this one continues the long tradition of fun discussion, investigating the most minute odds and ends of the D&D mythos, and a minimum of decapitation threats.

If this is your first visit to my threads, be prepared for loads and loads of terminology, new ideas and more than a little narcissistic grandstanding as I attempt to clear the hurdles of twenty-odd years of fluff buildup. There are a lot of regulars, but we like new faces. A cursory attempt to search the past threads before asking your question would be appreciated, since 1) we've got the Search Thread function back and 2) I get a lot of repeat questions. If it happens again, it happens, but if it can be avoided then so much the better.

Once again, the fundamentals:

Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned.

• I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

• 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires a lot of digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something. This is especially relevant since I've just moved a second time and had to repack all of the material; research now involves me jumping into the storage... corridor thing... to knock boxes around.

• I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

• There are very few sources that don't bring something to the table, but sometimes what's written has been done with rather more expedient and financial goals in mind than staying true to canon or respecting the work of past authors. In particular, the Races series from 3.5 notoriously threw out the old racial pantheons and started over with a lot of similar deities. Where this sort of laziness has been evident, older sources are considered to prevail within the context of this thread.

• This thread has nothing to do with Pathfinder and I'm not particularly capable of (or interested in) answering questions involving Golarion. All questions will be addressed as D&D questions using the 3.5 edition rules to the extent possible.

Core Concepts

• The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

• The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

• I've been finding it convenient to concoct terminology for the major PC races and their most common foes. The term "proud races" refers to the most commonly encountered modern civilized races of the Prime Material Plane: humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings. The terms "vilekith" and "vile races" refer to the most commonly encountered modern barbarous races of the Prime Material Plane: gnolls, goblinoids, kobolds, orcs and ogres.

• When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

• Zargon is not an ancient baatorian, and I'm not engaging on the topic yet again in this thread. It's been done to death already, search it up.

• How have I done six of these already seriously what the blazes.

Happy questioning!

[Yklikt]

So... If zargon is not baatorian, what is he?

[afroakuma]

Some other kind of monster. I'm not engaging on that topic again. Ever.

[Khedrac]

Welcome back Afroakuma, your threads are always great reading.

A "play" question rather than a "lore" question - do you have any suggestions for how to run the Dabus for non-scripted encounters in a game? (I am running Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and the party just had an encounter where some dabus were trying to talk to them - the PCs were a bit busy and just ignored them so it came off OK in play, but I wondered how to handle more normal encounters.)

Actually that makes me think of a "lore" question - how do the dabus interact with naturally blind creatures (such as grimlocks) - are their illusions purely optical or do they operate on whatever the 'viewing' creature's primary sense is?

[Gildedragon]

Dunno if this has been asked before but:
Considering that most Material Planes have similar life forms: (elves, humans, orcs, etc...)
Who designed/created the races/life-forms? It clearly can't be gods like Cor-Lath or Gruumsh or Morradin as they're not universally worshipped and other gods in other spheres take credit for those races' creation... or do these racial gods just take on a dozen different names as they move between worlds?

[Yklikt]

Some other kind of monster. I'm not engaging on that topic again. Ever.

Oh then can you show me where you did first time

[BWR]

So... If zargon is not baatorian, what is he?

Short answer, since Baator doesn't exist in the Mystaran cosmology, and The Lost City (the module where Zargon appeared) is semi-officially set somewhere in Mystara, he isn't a Baatorian of any stripe, new or old. He's something else.

[hamishspence]

Arguably Elder Evils created "Zargon II" who lives in a different Lost City, found on the world of Oerth.

[afroakuma]

Welcome back Afroakuma, your threads are always great reading.

Why thank you.

A "play" question rather than a "lore" question - do you have any suggestions for how to run the Dabus for non-scripted encounters in a game? (I am running Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and the party just had an encounter where some dabus were trying to talk to them - the PCs were a bit busy and just ignored them so it came off OK in play, but I wondered how to handle more normal encounters.)

Easiest way is to have someone on hand who can translate so you don't need to concoct rebuses. Intelligence check to puzzle out what they're on about is also reasonable.

Actually that makes me think of a "lore" question - how do the dabus interact with naturally blind creatures (such as grimlocks) - are their illusions purely optical or do they operate on whatever the 'viewing' creature's primary sense is?

As far as we're aware, both dabus and phirblas communicate with visual manifestations exclusively. I would imagine that if a dabus is on Her Serenity's business, it will have conscripted an "interpreter."

Dunno if this has been asked before but:
Considering that most Material Planes have similar life forms: (elves, humans, orcs, etc...)
Who designed/created the races/life-forms?

I posited in my longform exploration of the emergence of Prime Material life that the general "humanoid" design emerged from the Astral beings called thendar and was popularized from there. The first races did not include humans, elves, dwarves etc. and their gods did not originate the design across the whole of the Prime. As to the gods of the first races, given the fates those peoples suffered it's more likely than not that those gods died long before their names could be recorded in any appreciable way.

Oh then can you show me where you did first time

Here.

[Tzardok]

Oh happy day!
Now where did I leave my list of gathered questions?
Ah, here it is:

1. Which fiends that exist in 3.5 were psionic in earlier editions or would lend themselves to be made psionic?

2. The article on mooncalves in Dragon #340 claims them to be creations of eldritch outer space beings named moon gods. How would mooncalves and moon gods fit into the Spelljamer world?

3. In your Great Big List of Deities (GBLD) you also list Angra Mainyu. Is there anything else on him besides the article on alternative death gods in Dragon # 288?

4. In your creation myth you mention Rhiannon as the oldest deity besides Io. I found nothing on her besides an ages old Dragon article. What can you tell me about her?

5. Again on the topic of gods: What kind of connection do the Roman gods have to the Olympian pantheon? In the (GBLD) they aren't mentioned, in "On Hallowed Ground" they are. Are they just different names? Different aspects of the same deities? Allies? Annoyed with each other because they are always equated?

6. Who is Merodach?

I've got more, but i don't want to overload you so early in the thread.

And thank you again for coming back.

We missed you.

[Gildedragon]

I'll have to look up your origin of life in the planes blurb
Dragon 353: Demiplane of Imprisionment, what's trapped in that crystal?
It looks a lot like Pandorym's crystal jail... do the Powers just like using violet gemstones as jailcells?

[afroakuma]

1. Which fiends that exist in 3.5 were psionic in earlier editions or would lend themselves to be made psionic?

Most fiends were psionic in some earlier edition. "Would lend themselves" is a bit nonspecific, would you care to narrow that?

2. The article on mooncalves in Dragon #340 claims them to be creations of eldritch outer space beings named moon gods. How would mooncalves and moon gods fit into the Spelljamer world?

They'd exist as wildspace entities.

3. In your Great Big List of Deities (GBLD) you also list Angra Mainyu. Is there anything else on him besides the article on alternative death gods in Dragon # 288?

Angra Mainyu was never detailed substantially beyond the original article on the Persian mythos in Dragon #12.

4. In your creation myth you mention Rhiannon as the oldest deity besides Io. I found nothing on her besides an ages old Dragon article. What can you tell me about her?

I can tell you to read that ages-old Dragon article. That's the totality.

5. Again on the topic of gods

Why do I feel that you're out to make me regret the god list.

What kind of connection do the Roman gods

The Olympian pantheon, you mean?

In the (GBLD) they aren't mentioned, in "On Hallowed Ground" they are.

Would you care to point out where that might be? A cursory scan hasn't shown me any Roman deities in the index.

Are they just different names? Different aspects of the same deities? Allies? Annoyed with each other because they are always equated?

Off the cuff, I don't believe D&D has spoken to this at all; each edition has been very consistent with maintaining the Olympian pantheon and excluding the Romans. It would not be unreasonable to suggest that there may have been some degree of syncretism/annexation of worship taking place that saw the Olympians employ Latinate aliases to corner the market on belief and squeeze out the myriad spirits of Roman tradition. Again, though, this is all off the cuff.

6. Who is Merodach?

Merodach is a Duke of Hell in the service of Dispater. He commands 21 companies of hamatulas. His appearance is that of a horned, winged wolf with a serpentine tail.

I'll have to look up your origin of life in the planes blurb

A search for "Ilkahvval" should pull up the posts, if I remember correctly.

Dragon 353: Demiplane of Imprisionment, what's trapped in that crystal?

Tharizdun.

It looks a lot like Pandorym's crystal jail... do the Powers just like using violet gemstones as jailcells?

Not particularly.

[Melcar]

Dunno if this has been asked before but:
Considering that most Material Planes have similar life forms: (elves, humans, orcs, etc...)
Who designed/created the races/life-forms? It clearly can't be gods like Cor-Lath or Gruumsh or Morradin as they're not universally worshipped and other gods in other spheres take credit for those races' creation... or do these racial gods just take on a dozen different names as they move between worlds?

Most races have either been slaves or have at some point gained access to plane travel abilities! So they might have been created by the host you mention and migrated from there!

Edit: Hope it's alright I took a shot at answering that, to the best of my abilities!

[enderlord99]

Are you angry about Red Fel copying your "powerful Evil outsider who knows lots of stuff" shtick?

Of course you are, you're angry about everything, I'm not sure why I thought that would be a good question. Let's ask this instead:

HOW angry are you? ...Specifically at him and specifically for that, I mean.

[Melcar]

Hi Afroakuma, glad to have you back!

In Dragon #359, there are different explanations on "the Serpent" and the other Ancient Brethren. What is your take on them? What sort of beings are they? Are they the upper most tier? Like to know your thoughts!

Thanks!

[Red Fel]

Are you angry about Red Fel copying your "powerful Evil outsider who knows lots of stuff" shtick?

It's not copying, it's an homage.

The difference is a matter of respect for the source material.

[afroakuma]

Hi Afroakuma, glad to have you back!

In Dragon #359, there are different explanations on "the Serpent" and the other Ancient Brethren. What is your take on them? What sort of beings are they? Are they the upper most tier? Like to know your thoughts!

The "Ancient Brethren" are the product of a misreading between Vecna Reborn and Die, Vecna, Die! on the part of the authors of the latter. The term was not originally intended to refer to the Serpent at all, but rather to Vecna's ancestors, a people also known as the Ur-Flan.

My take is that the Serpent, given Vecna's history and its own characteristics, is most likely a vestige, a truly rare one at that, and that the Whispered One was in his early youth a binder. If pact magic was the secret practice passed down by Mazzel, it might explain her condemnation and execution for "witchcraft" - she was unable to prevent herself from displaying the sign of a patron.

[Eldan]

[QUOTE=Tzardok;22108322]
5. Again on the topic of gods: What kind of connection do the Roman gods have to the Olympian pantheon? In the (GBLD) they aren't mentioned, in "On Hallowed Ground" they are. Are they just different names? Different aspects of the same deities? Allies? Annoyed with each other because they are always equated?/QUOTE]

You may want to look for real world mythology for ideas on that. The Roman and Greek gods have different origins, but were increasingly merged until they were basically the same. Something similar could happen on the planes: it is sometimes mentioned that some gods take on different aspects for different worlds, or take on the guise of dead gods to gain worshippers. Perhaps the Roman gods usurped the roles of the Greek gods, or vice versa?

[Eldan]

The "Ancient Brethren" are the product of a misreading between Vecna Reborn and Die, Vecna, Die! on the part of the authors of the latter. The term was not originally intended to refer to the Serpent at all, but rather to Vecna's ancestors, a people also known as the Ur-Flan.

The Ur-Flan would later become famous for their creation of the terrible ooze monster known as the Blancmange who plagued certain crystal spheres with their terrifying powers of turning normal people into Scots and beating them at Tennis.

(Sorry, I just can't take anything named "Flan" seriously.)

[Tzardok]

Most fiends were psionic in some earlier edition. "Would lend themselves" is a bit nonspecific, would you care to narrow that?

I just thought of the dearth of psionic fiends and wanted to know which ones where especially fitting to add some psi-like abilities to. You know, a psionic lemure sounds really stupid, but a psionic version of the marilith would maybe fit better. Something like that.

They'd exist as wild space entities.

Would the moon gods then be deities that just live on the Prime or are they just something different?

I can tell you to read that ages-old Dragon article. That's the totality.

What happened to her in Afrocanon? What is her relation to the modern fey deities like the Queen of Air and Darkness? Did you choose her on a whim or did she fulfill some kind of unique need?

Why do I feel that you're out to make me regret the god list.

Oh, no, I am still thankfull for the List.

Would you care to point out where that might be? A cursory scan hasn't shown me any Roman deities in the index.

Mistake on my part. I know I read it somewhere in an official book, but I can't find it anymore. Still, the answers where helpful.
EDIT: I found an article in Dragon #133 where the Roman and the Olympian pantheon are treated as seperate. I don't think that it was what I read once, but at least I found something.

7. Is there anything on the Plane of Mirrors besides the stuff in Manual of the Planes? That version of the plane is essentially a bunch of unconnected empty demiplanes, which doesn't mesh with the existence of the nerra or the kamarel. I thought that there may be some kind of Deep Mirror, like with the Deep Ether, but I have no idea how one would go there. I would like to know your take on the matter.

[Melcar]

The "Ancient Brethren" are the product of a misreading between Vecna Reborn and Die, Vecna, Die! on the part of the authors of the latter. The term was not originally intended to refer to the Serpent at all, but rather to Vecna's ancestors, a people also known as the Ur-Flan.

My take is that the Serpent, given Vecna's history and its own characteristics, is most likely a vestige, a truly rare one at that, and that the Whispered One was in his early youth a binder. If pact magic was the secret practice passed down by Mazzel, it might explain her condemnation and execution for "witchcraft" - she was unable to prevent herself from displaying the sign of a patron.

Thanks for your reply...

Ok so in the ancient brethren originally referred to Vecnas ancestors, and the serpent, is in your mind not Vok'slak, the World Serpent? So all the mentioning of the Lady speaking in the serpents tongue, and being a confidant/ peer of the serpent is then likely a misunderstanding between authors? Or do you believe it to mean that the Lady is less a being in a lesser tier that then serpent? And that the serpent is some form of over-over-deity of magic and thus the personification of it...

What I'm trying to find out here, is what it all means canon-wise. I get how that might be impossible, but that my goal. I sort of feel that your take on it, differs somewhat from the official sources? Or is your take on it, the way you believe it is meant to be understood?

[afroakuma]

I just thought of the dearth of psionic fiends and wanted to know which ones where especially fitting to add some psi-like abilities to.

Whichever ones you'd like, I'd imagine. No reason lemures couldn't exude an unfocused psionic field that presents as a low-level psychic "moan." Greater devils and Type II and higher demons, among others, all had psionic capability in 1st edition. 2nd edition stripped it out as psionics became an optional side system.

Would the moon gods then be deities that just live on the Prime or are they just something different?

Presumably they are a collection of Prime-based wildspace entities with the combined power of a demigod.

What happened to her in Afrocanon?

I never settled on a fixed fate, but some sort of handwaved fading away as the fey branched off to follow more focused patrons.

What is her relation to the modern fey deities like the Queen of Air and Darkness?

Most likely maternal or grandmaternal. No, I don't have any notion of who might form an intermediate generation, don't ask.

Mistake on my part. I know I read it somewhere in an official book, but I can't find it anymore. Still, the answers where helpful.
EDIT: I found an article in Dragon #133 where the Roman and the Olympian pantheon are treated as seperate. I don't think that it was what I read once, but at least I found something.

Doesn't look like they're treated as separate; rather it appears that the article covers some gods of Roman worship who were not direct analogues to a Greek divinity (or who were, but were sufficiently differentiated). The article also makes it fairly clear why there are no Roman gods: Roman priests aren't particularly faithful. Incidentally, it's a bit spotty in places... Eris is not a Roman divinity, she's quite Greek. Likewise Serapis. Both are already on the big list of gods. I'm not tremendously inclined to add the Divis Imperator, Saturn (listed as a titan), or Vesta, who is essentially Hestia. It looks like the only reason she wasn't listed as a cognate is that Hestia wasn't present in Legends and Lore, so with the 3rd edition update I'm inclined to treat them as one and the same.

7. Is there anything on the Plane of Mirrors besides the stuff in Manual of the Planes?

Nothing you're not already familiar with.

Ok so in the ancient brethren originally referred to Vecnas ancestors, and the serpent, is in your mind not Vok'slak, the World Serpent?

Well, I mean, that might be its name... but in terms of the status ascribed to it? No. Vecna never does anything particularly exceptional or world-changing of his own power or with some vastly potent magic channeled from the "source of all sorcery," he just learns of various loopholes he can piggyback on and does so. It's a consistent part of his character - he hunts secrets so that he can access backdoors and exploits, he became a lich to loophole around death itself, he planned to be reborn inside the borders of Tovag to loophole the border rules of Ravenloft, and he piggybacked off of Iuz's divinity to catapult himself into Sigil. Once there, his whole plan hinged on being already inside Sigil at the time his godhead "caught up" with him, and even then the scheme was essentially flawed from the outset - he took a gamble and was wrong the whole time.

So all the mentioning of the Lady speaking in the serpents tongue, and being a confidant/ peer of the serpent is then likely a misunderstanding between authors?

"Likely" nothing, Reborn says one thing and Die Vecna Die says another, and Reborn came first.

Or do you believe it to mean that the Lady is less a being in a lesser tier that then serpent?

Uh, no. Extremely no. I can see the other thread, you know.

And that the serpent is some form of over-over-deity of magic and thus the personification of it...

No.

What I'm trying to find out here, is what it all means canon-wise. I get how that might be impossible, but that my goal.

Yeah, it's not prepared to do you any favors here.

I sort of feel that your take on it, differs somewhat from the official sources?

Oh do you now.

Though legend suggests that the Lady of Pain once belonged to the Ancient Brethren, among whom the Serpent also numbers,

(the language of the Serpent and its Ancient Brethren

To be frank, reading through the latter adventure has only reinforced my take on it - the Ancient Brethren and their Language Primeval are never given context as anything more than an antediluvian race which mastered the secrets of arcane power, and the Serpent is contextualized with symbology that suggests deification. We see artwork showing the Serpent as a manifestation from the skies instructing an aged but still mortal Vecna in how to cheat death. More artwork showing a ghostly Serpent wrapped around Vecna as he cements his rise to godhood. Another, showing the Serpent coiled around Vecna and Iuz as they battle, offering no interference but merely lurking in wait (Iuz triumphed in this battle). A final one, depicting Vecna trapped in Ravenloft and raging at the heavens, while the Serpent writhes about him still, whispering in his ear. Cavitius is replete with iconography of serpents, including an ouroboros surrounding Vecna's traditional symbol.

So yes, an ancient entity with no discernible place in the universe, acting through whispers in the ear of an agent who transforms his soul under its directives, and which understands the strange ways of the multiverse outside of the norm - a vestige does feel particularly fitting. As omnipotent embodiments of the force of magic in uber-deity form go, however... well, as Dragon 359 notes:

Most likely, the ghostly voices in Vecna's head, inspiring him to heights of arcane brilliance and depths of deprativty,
are merely the whispers of his own insanity and dark genius.

[Eldan]

Most likely maternal or grandmaternal. No, I don't have any notion of who might form an intermediate generation, don't ask.

If Tzardok is interested in Eldancanon, or my take on things...

The Queen of Air and Darkness and Titania were sisters, when the QoAaD was corrupted by the black gem. That much is more or less certain.

In my personal headcanon, they were both daughters of a high King of Faerie. He's unnamed, though sometimes I've called him "Balor" in my head, though that name is sadly taken in D&D. Back then, there was a Plane of Faerie, but the war between the two princesses over the succession and the Black Diamond sundered the entire plane, into parts that are now the Seelie and Unseelie Realm and - and this is a lot of headcanon right here - parts of the realms of Dream, Shadow and Mirrors and a seed of the Infinite Staircase. Rhiannon, in that headcanon, is the originator of the fey, Titania's grandmother, who now takes the role of grumbly, old and immensely powerful crone who advises the queen.

[Tzardok]

Interesting take, Eldan. I remember you saying something like that before. A broken Plane of Faerie doesn't fit my world, but I'll take the rest with thanks.

8. In an earlier thread you etablished the whole path of a soul, from being created in Positive, over living their life in the Prime or wherever, till death and the travel to the Outer Planes. What about the animus of a mindless creature? Does it have the same origin? And where does it go after the creature's death? Is there a plane where all animi go, like the Beastland as endstation for all animal souls?

9. What is the connection between lung dragons and "true" dragons? Are they creations of Io? Are they even related? Do lung dragons travel the planes or set up shop there?

[Gildedragon]

Tzardok 9: either the draconomicon or dragon magic list Lung Dragons as True Dragons. So yes. They would most likely be creations of Io. Same as the Gem Dragons and other obscure true dragons. Probably came into being after he ran out of colors and started looking at swatches with names like Seafoam, Mountain Pine, and Tuscan Clay

[Tzardok]

Oh, I know that they are true dragons by the rules. That's why I wrote "true" in quotation marks. I just feel that they are quite different in nature, purpose and so on (that damned Spirit subtype) and would like the expert's opinion on that.

[Melcar]

To be frank, reading through the latter adventure has only reinforced my take on it - the Ancient Brethren and their Language Primeval are never given context as anything more than an antediluvian race which mastered the secrets of arcane power, and the Serpent is contextualized with symbology that suggests deification. We see artwork showing the Serpent as a manifestation from the skies instructing an aged but still mortal Vecna in how to cheat death. More artwork showing a ghostly Serpent wrapped around Vecna as he cements his rise to godhood. Another, showing the Serpent coiled around Vecna and Iuz as they battle, offering no interference but merely lurking in wait (Iuz triumphed in this battle). A final one, depicting Vecna trapped in Ravenloft and raging at the heavens, while the Serpent writhes about him still, whispering in his ear. Cavitius is replete with iconography of serpents, including an ouroboros surrounding Vecna's traditional symbol.

So yes, an ancient entity with no discernible place in the universe, acting through whispers in the ear of an agent who transforms his soul under its directives, and which understands the strange ways of the multiverse outside of the norm - a vestige does feel particularly fitting. As omnipotent embodiments of the force of magic in uber-deity form go, however... well, as Dragon 359 notes:

Thanks again... a few more questions bear with.

Assuming your vestige theory is right, could it not indeed be a vestige of Mok'Slyk? Apparently the original and strongest form of the World Serpent, which now is shattered or split. In different deities... ?

What source do you consider most canon: Venca Reborn or Die Vecna Die? and could you elaborate on why? My reason for asking is because as you mention yourself the description seem to differ somewhat and the role of brethren and who they are change, as you say. It would seem you hold Venca Reborn as being most canon... What the brethren are and whom they are seems to be dependent on which source you use, not considering other sources like that of Dragon #359, and I would like to know why you choose what.

EDIT: What is your take on what the Language Primeval is?

Again thanks for the answers!

[afroakuma]

8. In an earlier thread you etablished the whole path of a soul, from being created in Positive, over living their life in the Prime or wherever, till death and the travel to the Outer Planes. What about the animus of a mindless creature? Does it have the same origin?

An animus is presumably, in essence, a product of either positive or negative energy.

And where does it go after the creature's death?

Probably just disperses.

9. What is the connection between lung dragons and "true" dragons?

The specific connection is unknown - certainly the powerful beings were at least inspired by the children of Io.

Are they creations of Io? Are they even related?

I can't speak with certainty about whether the first lung dragons were related to Io's children directly, but probably not. Lung dragons are spirit entities that serve the Celestial Bureaucracy.

Do lung dragons travel the planes or set up shop there?

They've been to many other worlds on the Material Plane and serve at the behest of deities as powerful spirits; I would imagine they exist on the planes at least where those divinities make their realms.

Assuming your vestige theory is right, could it not indeed be a vestige of Mok'Slyk?

So, just for efficiency's sake, "Mok'slyk" isn't even such an entity's canonical name, just a moniker used in a comic book which describes "Mok'slyk" as operating much in the manner of a conventional god. You seem to have a preconceived idea that you're trying really hard to garner support for, and my basic feeling on that is "if you want to do that for your campaign, go ahead."

What source do you consider most canon: Venca Reborn or Die Vecna Die?

I take no position. I'm simply pointing out that one author invented something wholecloth, and that material was taken for a later work, in which it appears to have been to some extent misinterpreted. Not as great an extent as to warrant any substantive debate, mind you.

What the brethren are and whom they are seems to be dependent on which source you use

Not tremendously. Both sources allude to them being an elder people whose fire has gone out of the multiverse, studied in a powerful and rare language of magic. Vecna Reborn suggests they are his ancestors, and Die, Vecna, Die! doesn't dispute that so much as it ends up suggesting at least at the textual level that the Serpent and (in their legends) the Lady of Pain are beings of vast power who ascended beyond such an origin.

EDIT: What is your take on what the Language Primeval is?

It appears to be just an older language of magic, one with which many elder races were familiar.

[Jowgen]

Yay, afrothread is back!

So, the theme of day seems to be Vestiges, so I'mma roll with that.

Naberius, the grinning hound. Unless I missed something, it seems to me that the writers completely ignored D&D lore and lifted his whole schtick directly from real life demonologist sources.

My question is, considering how he's described, where would you place his pre-vestige origins?

[Melcar]

So, just for efficiency's sake, "Mok'slyk" isn't even such an entity's canonical name, just a moniker used in a comic book which describes "Mok'slyk" as operating much in the manner of a conventional god. You seem to have a preconceived idea that you're trying really hard to garner support for, and my basic feeling on that is "if you want to do that for your campaign, go ahead."

Two things:

1) I was not aware that Mok'slyk was not its canon name. I actually thought it was. Do you know what his canonical name is`?

2) Its not so much me trying to garner support for an idea, its more that I actually believe there to be a connection, which I do think is very cool and all, but more than anything me trying to get my head around something which is really badly described. So really, I'm just trying to turn over all the stones to see how I end up understanding their connection. Yes I probably put way too much energy in this, but I find it fascinating.

I take no position. I'm simply pointing out that one author invented something wholecloth, and that material was taken for a later work, in which it appears to have been to some extent misinterpreted. Not as great an extent as to warrant any substantive debate, mind you.

Ok...

Not tremendously. Both sources allude to them being an elder people whose fire has gone out of the multiverse, studied in a powerful and rare language of magic. Vecna Reborn suggests they are his ancestors, and Die, Vecna, Die! doesn't dispute that so much as it ends up suggesting at least at the textual level that the Serpent and (in their legends) the Lady of Pain are beings of vast power who ascended beyond such an origin.

So both sources are equally right and equally wrong? Either the brethren are omnipotent beings, from the dawn of creation, or a race of mortal, albeit powerful spell-casters, from the dawn of creation... ?

It appears to be just an older language of magic, one with which many elder races were familiar.

Ok... Personally I would give it more credit. Apparently the lady speaks this language to alter the entire multiverse.


I don't think I have ever seen anyone apply Occam's razor more wholeheartedly than this. You have the most down to earth answer to all my question about the dawn of creation and beings of unfathomably power... I gather that we have a way different interpretations of the sources of this information. And that our starting point is so very different that for the questions I pose to have any meaning we have to accept the same premise. I don't think we do. Which is in no way meant as critique. I asked for your opinion and I got it.

But thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions and making these threads in general!