The Promised Neverland: Promises kept and broken (to be edited)

[Frozen_Feet]

Happier and smarter cows do taste better. But you're still missing the point. The factory farm kids are not superficially similar to factory farmed animals, they are the same. Even the dumbest Lambda kids (Adam, Zazie) are of dubious cognitive ability.How much effort it'd take to downgrade humans into or uplift cows out of that status is not relevant, what matters is whether the relevant agent chooses to do it or not.

You could turn around the logic you're using for demons to brand humand as parasites just fine and in fact that is a popular argument made of humans both in other fiction and real life. The inequal state where humans seemingly reign supreme over other animals is built on systemic exploitation of those animals, including other humans and the environment in general. And we can demonstrate that this can be and has been equally self-destructive to what the demons are doing.

[Gilded_Mage]

I got really hooked from watching the anime and like marathoned the manga since it was so good but, I got to say I have to agree with Norman.
Like if I was a kid and that world and lived through some of the horrors I'd be 100% team Norman.


But all this arguing of ethics needs to put aside until we find out what happened to Phil. If they hurt Phil I'm rioting.

[Dragonus45]

You could turn around the logic you're using for demons to brand humand as parasites just fine and in fact that is a popular argument made of humans both in other fiction and real life. The inequal state where humans seemingly reign supreme over other animals is built on systemic exploitation of those animals, including other humans and the environment in general. And we can demonstrate that this can be and has been equally self-destructive to what the demons are doing.

First off we are perfectly capable of remaining sentient without eating things that are people so I don't see how we are parasites in that sense. Also The phrase "systemic exploitation" seems fairly loaded for describing making use of chattel. Who exist for that purpose, and for us to eat. Unlike people, who are people. This is why what the demons are doing can only be solved when one side is dead. They don't require cows to maintain themselve. They eat people. Can't state that clearly enough, because people are not animals.

[Frozen_Feet]

You're not listening. No animal is cattle naturally. They're cattle because we make them so. It is not the purpose of cows to be eaten by humans outside the actions taken by humans to make it so.

You say we don't need to eat other sentients to be intelligent, but if that's true, why do we? In fact, why do we eat any animals? Humans could conceivably subsist on plants alone. Parasitism is defined as the act of feeding on another living being and making its life worse, yet keeping it alive for the parasite's benefit. Is that not exactly what we do to cows (etc.) as a species? Or do you believe factory farmed animals are not only necessary, but better off than wild animals?

[Razade]

Can't state that clearly enough, because people are not animals.

Yes we are. Warm blooded primates, present and accounted for.


While sure, cows aren't cattle by nature (they didn't exist by nature. We bred them from other animals to the ones we've got now), it's a function of our own hunting methods that produced them. Cows are just as sentient as we are to boot. They're not as sapient but that's a distinction we make. Humans and demons seem of equal sapience however and I don't think there'd be many who'd argue that it's ok to eat a sapient animal..We're not the only thing on the planet that does this. There's at least two species of ants that "farm" other insects. It just seems to be something that happens. I'd also think most people who are pro-keeping on eating meat are also not pro-Mass Produced Meat Farms where the animals are treated like dirt. I'd rather eat meat that came from happy animals raised with respect as opposed to pumped with hormones because they can't actually sustain themselves otherwise. I doubt many would find fault with that. We can sit around and argue if it should happen but I'm of the mind that that isn't going to get us anywhere productive. Humans need to eat meat, it's a fairly privileged position to get to choose not to do it as opposed to having to do it, and our biology is built around eating meat and non-meat alike.


Either way, the Demons are the bad guys because they're mass producing kids to be smart because smart kids taste better. If anything you eat can turn around and write you a 20 page thesis on why you shouldn't, you should probably listen to it. But the Demons won't because they're the bad guys.


Is there really anything else to say here? Really?

[Kato]

I'll try to stay fifty feet from anything remotely resembling real world (even if we're just talking about science) but...
The demons (majority) would cease existing without eating humans. As far as we / they know. They don't farm people for fun (though they clearly don't mind) but because they have to. No, the story doesn't do a great job at framing it well but they are sapient beings and thus shouldn't they deserve to live as much as humans?

[Frozen_Feet]

@Razade: the series is arguably building up a point of how only the very top of the demon society are "the bad guys" for setting up and maintaining a vile status quo. The demon kids Emma keeps fantasizing about are as much victims of the system as the humans.

@Kato: that question is the central theme of Emma's character right now.

If you ask me? Eh, there are enough humans in the world, I wouldn't mind if demons ate a few. Fair's fair, sometimes I eat prey, sometimes prey eats me, that's how things were for majority of existence before someone came up with this "civilization" thing and spoiled it all.

[LaZodiac]

New chapter!

I'm starting to come around to Emma's way of thinking, I think. I've been a little too harsh on the series.

[LaZodiac]

New chapter!

I'll be honest I just...cannot decide how I feel about this series anymore.

Because obviously the intent is that Norman is wrong. But due to personal experiences and just a general feel of the world and how it contrasts with our own...he's right? Even forgetting the food metaphor that I get stuck up on some times...he is extremely correct. Maybe that's just too cynical on my part, and I WANT to be like Emma. But that just feels unreasonable.

[Frozen_Feet]

Oh stop being so tsundere about it and embrace your crush on him. All hail Leader Norman as he paves the way towards the final solution to the demon problem!

[Razade]

It was the timeskips that really did me in. Like, Emma's right in that the "Cursed Blood" is a way forward where Demons and Humans can live side by side and that there are Demons who are just sweet, gentle, loving things. We see that in like...two named Demons so far...and being on the final arc I doubt we'll really see much more. It just feels like a lot of plot build up and character development was wasted in the story going "Ok! A few years have passed now!".

Were they given a deadline? I can't imagine that, the series is fairly popular so the shadow of Jump can't be looming over them. It just seems a really strange choice to slash it out. One small scene in a recap chapter really isn't enough narrative oomph for us to suddenly decide that Emma's totally right. The other side is obviously totally wrong but we didn't get much build up there either. The series had some real promise. I honestly thought I'd be saying all of this crap about Dr. Stone and be eager for this series to finish.

I guess with only this and My Hero updating this week, I'll at least have an excuse to catch up with Hero which is another series that just totally lost me.

[LaZodiac]

Oh stop being so tsundere about it and embrace your crush on him. All hail Leader Norman as he paves the way towards the final solution to the demon problem!

Wow no don't...use that terminology given all the actual literal children in death camps. Perhaps, avoid that.

[Kato]

Okay, despite all my complaints I will admit that the story raises an (imo) interesting question. It might not be what the initial appeal was but what moves towards war between two groups, both of which do have their reasons for doing horrible things, is interesting and if I didn't blatantly knew who the hero was and that they in all likelihood will get their way I'd be curious to see what happens.
If we pull away the veil of demons and their diets, if both factions were human but circumstances were otherwise similar (there's plenty of things to substitute for cannibalism) it becomes much harder to justify genocide as revenge. (and now I feel like I'm a sentence away from breaking forum rules so I'll stop)

The question is very interesting, though not subtle, but the delivery is rather lacking.

[LaZodiac]

New chapter!

I...I am so conflicted. We have some some degree of demons loving each other, but...that doesn't...that doesn't really matter to me. The ultimate trick of true monsters is making you remember that they ARE people. Bad people, truly, genuinely bad people can still have important, loving relationships. They still bleed and hurt and cry.

And they're still bad and should be killed.

I kinda want to drop this series, or at least stop talking about it, because every time I stop to try and think about it I realize how little hope I have for some things, and I'm not sure it's healthy. I want things to be better. I WANT to be like Emma. But there are some things I just can't stand by on.

EDIT: ALSO HEY WAY SEIJUN SAID HE WANTED TO HUNT HUMANS ONCE THEY BECAME WILD AND FREE SO NONE OF THIS MATTERS THE GOOD DEMONS ARE BAD TOO. **** THIS.

Like it was only when discussing it with a friend that I remebered that even one of the good demons is actually still pro human hunting, just if they're wild animals instead of farm bred. So Emma's plan is mostly proven false by the series. Even the good demons want to do it.

[Kato]

I don't want to repeat too much of what I already said but I think that is actually a good thing about the story. And no, I don't think a general statement like 'they're all bad, they have to die' is (ever) justified. Some of them probably deserve death (because in this world no-one is going to build a demon prison) but extending this to 'kill all demons' is totally unfair.

Also, we've known for a long time the good demons aren't all good. We can only guess what exactly he meant aside from he misses the taste of human flesh, but if you were under the impression they were big teddy bears... Well..

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler

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I don't like there being legitimate magic in the world, even if it makes sense with regards to the Promise. I just hope it's explained well.

Anyway hey, lots of high fashion demons. That's fun. We get to see Luce's father, the mother of the twins, Byron's son, and...we learn that Leuvis's sister is the currently queen. Well then, we've made some powerful enemies huh.

[Kato]

I guess we knew by now magic was a thing (not that I like it but it's nothing new). And... Argh, you got an anime. It seems so impossible you were not given the time to properly tell the story of how you got this knowledge and how you TRIED THIS BEFORE! Geez...
But the demons are cool, I just wish we'd seen this earlier. Maybe they'll get some attention now.

[LaZodiac]

New Chapter!

Spoiler

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Fascinating stuff honestly, if a little generic. Norman's plan is pretty good, and seems to be working. Also, the Queen is VERY BIG.

Also, hah, magical symbolism means they return to the Gracefield House once more. Naturally.

Also also...I just realized that the scientist who helped Norman is Smee. AS in from Peter Pan. In Neverland.

[LaZodiac]

New chapter!

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A very "it happened" chapter. After all the demon stuff I don't really find skeleton children all that scary, but I get why our heroes would be afraid, obviously.

[Kato]

New chapter!

Spoiler

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A very "it happened" chapter. After all the demon stuff I don't really find skeleton children all that scary, but I get why our heroes would be afraid, obviously.

Yeah, this was very not scary, though it was clearly meant to be. Maybe animated with darker lighting and scary / stressful audio it could work but on the page it didn't.
Oherwise not much to say, we'll see where this goes and what's up with ???

[LaZodiac]

Short chapter this week!

Also not a particularly good one, as a result.

[Kato]

Yeah, did anything really happen? Except Ray... Time traveling? Being stuck for years? Or something? I don't even know.
I honestly don't remember any details already.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah, did anything really happen? Except Ray... Time traveling? Being stuck for years? Or something? I don't even know.
I honestly don't remember any details already.

We get the flashforward to Ray being lost within the space between spaces, then flashback to tease at how that happened, and that's it.

Ultimately it doesn't matter at all since this is definitely going to be one of those "hour inside second outside" situations, and they won't actually be physically changed at all.

[Kato]

We get the flashforward to Ray being lost within the space between spaces, then flashback to tease at how that happened, and that's it.

Ultimately it doesn't matter at all since this is definitely going to be one of those "hour inside second outside" situations, and they won't actually be physically changed at all.

Oh, of course. But the chapter still seems very... empty to me. Of course if he really spent years (in his view) I guess he should be crazy or something.

[LaZodiac]

Oh, of course. But the chapter still seems very... empty to me. Of course if he really spent years (in his view) I guess he should be crazy or something.

Oh yeah. Especially because of his baby memories. Dude can remember everything from an apparent eternity within the madness zone.

[Kato]

Do we REALLY need new characters? Isn't this story ending?
I mean, I guess she seems interesting but still.

Also, poor Ray.

[LaZodiac]

Do we REALLY need new characters? Isn't this story ending?
I mean, I guess she seems interesting but still.

Also, poor Ray.

I'm actually pretty convinced Promised Neverland is just... bad, right now. The new character is just a repetition of a lot of themes we already know.

also we ****ing really are just gonna skip over Ray finding Emma in the negative zone huh, cause last time it was setting up for something and this time he seems all better mostly but he found a baby Emma.

[Razade]

The manga's overall quality really dropped with the timeskip. At this point I'm really only reading it to see how it ends even though I doubt it will be satisfying in the slightest. It had a lot of promise. At least we've got Dr. Stone and One Piece.

[Kato]

The manga's overall quality really dropped with the timeskip. At this point I'm really only reading it to see how it ends even though I doubt it will be satisfying in the slightest. It had a lot of promise. At least we've got Dr. Stone and One Piece.

Wow, what did Hero Academia do to you?

Also, yeah, the appeal of the early chapters was the attempt at outsmarting your opponents, now the plots are too obvious and we get another twist out of nowhere on a weekly basis. It's not what was the selling point.

[Razade]

Wow, what did Hero Academia do to you?

The Yakuza arc was, in the manga-ka's own words, not great. The follow up arc wasn't anything to write home about either and by that point I'd just sorta stopped bothering to be current. Deku's character from when I stopped bothering to dead along wasn't really doing it for me. Maybe it's gotten better from the few glances I've taken...I'm not really eager to rush back into it. Especially since Deku's really stopped being the focus for some time now it seems.

I was reading Hero because Deku was shaping up to be an interesting character. I honestly didn't really get snagged by the series until after the first tournament. Once Deku started using his smarts and his knowledge to compensate for his lack of strength, I thought we might be going in a cool direction. The Yakuza Arc, the manga-ka's sickness and other extenuating circumstances, really did a blow there. Slowly shifting the story away from Deku to his classmates and their struggles...while totally in line with the story...also didn't grab me. Now we're look at the villains...just meh.

When boredom and free time get hte better of me I'll get current.

Also, yeah, the appeal of the early chapters was the attempt at outsmarting your opponents, now the plots are too obvious and we get another twist out of nowhere on a weekly basis. It's not what was the selling point.

The twists not being good is a big problem. Them not really fitting the previous narrative makes them worse. The biological explanation of the demons actually weakens the story further imo. If it were just "they're magical creatures w/e" that'd have been fine by me. We've already got magic in the setting, I don't see why we've shied away from it. Them basically being angry little bacteria and the plot regarding Musica further erodes what was one of the more interesting aspects of Musica and the people around her.

The largest issue is that the manga stopped being about Ray and Emma and started being about the larger mission. Like Hero, focusing on the side cast is all well and good but it needs to circle back to the main characters. This isn't Assassination Classroom where the main character serves as a foil to the more silly gag antics of the chapter to chapter narrative. Hero and Neverland have a constructed and deep lore to it, where the actions of the main cast feed into the next chapter far more closely than Assassination Classroom. I was worried that Neverland was going to go that route to start but it really didn't. Now it's just splitting itself between a few people but totally skipping any context. It's just telling us all of the twists and turns and skipping to the end of the good stuff.

I was worried that Hero was also going to go a more AC route where we explore every classmate and their particular hangup with Deku as the fulcrum in which their world turns. It's been subverted a little but that subversion actually makes it worse. With no anchor all the extra side stuff just feels tacked on at best. At worst, it's a distraction and most of it hasn't imho been that enjoyable. The characters just have too much going on. That's normally high praise but AC and Dr. Stone to some effect has the right concept when trying to do an ensemble cast. Each cast member has a few features, exaggerated or not, that allows them to jig-saw with other similar characters and the antics focus around the main character. Senku is a good example of this as is Kurosensi from Assassination Classroom. Especially since in both cases, Senku and Kurosensi are basically overpowered demi-gods in their setting.

Emma and Ray just aren't that and their struggles being removed also removes any particular tension the story has. What was a chess game akin to Death Note has turned into...paste. Bland, white, paste.