OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[ShaneWegner]

The fact that it's a fortitude negates spell, and that a failure can mean nothing else than death, and that we've seen implosion visually in this comic before and that it looks the same, seems like Durkon's going to see Thor again.

Isn't Durkon supposed to have a great fort save though?

More interesting is that a "natural" 20 auto-saves. At this point, I think Thor would be willing to blow on the dice to make them come up a certain way. This is kind of supernatural interference the other gods would protest- but they're all SUPER busy running whatever last-minute Byzantine schemes and backroom negotiations they can right now. And it would take a while to set up some sort of trial for Thor, weeks maybe, and this world's life span is measured in days at this point.

If the Dark One shows up to protest or counteract the reality bending, good, communication achieved. (As long as they don't make a new 2-color Snarl.)

Even more interesting, if I understand right, a 1 auto-fails, BUT, a piece of gear gear might get drawn in instead? Or is that "in addition to". Anyway, if Thor is willing to bend the rules, Thor could bend the gear destruction rules and say "Ooh, Natural 1! But look, Durkon's right bracer got imploded instead of Durkon himself." And so on and so on. Maybe Durkon's next five actions are all Nat 20s due to Thor's cheating in his favor.

Loki: "Hey! That kind of cheating is my bit!"
Thor: "I guess I learned something from you after all, brother."

[Dragonus45]

Put a bunch of bacteria in a petry dish and darwinism applies, despite the fact that environment is completely artificial. Darwinism applies to any system with creatures capable of reproduction and finite resources, as i said it's just maths. If creature 1 is 5% better at reproduction then creature b then in second iteration there will be roughly 5% more of creature a then creature b, up until all alloted resources are consumed.

Only it really doesn't, because that specific part of the analysis doesn't hold up when the baseline presuppositions you are working from are potentially so different from our world and also specifically proven wrong by the fact that Dwarves and Elves and Lizardfolk and such still exist fairly peacefully but neanderthals don't. Outside of a bit of genetic legacy poking around in us nowadays.

[Samoja1]

You used species and races interchangeably in your post, despite them having very different meanings. The goblinoid cause is an allegory to real life racism.

Goblins are humans with green skin and fangs. Dwarves are humans, but short. Halfings are humans, but shorter and with hairier feet. There is nothing biologically inherent in them that makes them incapable of living together, considering all of them are sentient, free-willed beings.

Well it's a bad allegory then, because humans are a single species with minuscule genetic variation, any division in humanity are purely arbitrary. Races or species (again, i only use race because it's fantasy convention, blame people who misnamed them, not me) in OoTS are very different creatures with widely varying traits, it's simply not comparable. You are the one who is dragging real world politics into this, not me. I merely want to discuss this particular species/races in their own context. If the allegory does not fit that's the author's fault, not mine.

[Lethologica]

They are not, but other races are kept in check by their gods who don't want to step on each other's toes, and constant threat from evil factions. I am not saying goblins are more or less inclined then humans or elves or dwarves to conquer and enslave other races(they may be, but it's completely besides the point). I am saying they are in a much better position to act on that inclination. While i am not an expert on goblin biology results speak for themselves, despite being regularly targeted by other races and living on the least favotable land they are consistently able to produce armies that are large enough to threaten major powers of the world based on sheer numbers. If goblin population can replenish that quickly under those circumstances then they are better adapted. That is the exact same reasoning for why humans dominate or exterminate elves in many fantasy settings like TES or Witcher, they reproduce much faster and despite being individually inferior to elves as a species they are much better adapted. Humans live as long as we do because it takes us long time to reproduce, goblins can do so without serious handicap in fraction of the time it takes humans to do so.

The goblins have one bloody city and one bloody god, a newborn pariah. Goblins have produced armies that could threaten major powers twice, ever, whereas major races have continuously had that capability just about forever. Goblins are not in a better position to do anything than any of the major races.

In any event, I do not subscribe to your belief that all Stickworld civilizations are a breath away from perpetual bloodbath and monospecies rule, so I have no reason to care that you for some reason have opinions about only suppressing goblins in particular based on such a belief. Cheers.

[ShaneWegner]

I also had a weird dream that maybe all five quiddities (Roy and Julia ascend and bring back Green, Dark One style?) and instead of trying to make a prison, cast the godly equivalent of a massive 5 color Lay on Hands or Heal on the Snarl, healing it.

Then maybe it becomes sort of a passive positive spirit, working to help make their creations even better or at least more interesting? Even the Evil gods understand healing for the right cause.

[Peelee]

More interesting is that a "natural" 20 auto-saves.

IIRC, a nat 20 only automatically succeeds on attack rolls. Saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, etc. do not have auto-successes or auto-fails on nat 20s or nat 1s.

[Samoja1]

Only it really doesn't, because that specific part of the analysis doesn't hold up when the baseline presuppositions you are working from are potentially so different from our world and also specifically proven wrong by the fact that Dwarves and Elves and Lizardfolk and such still exist fairly peacefully but neanderthals don't. Outside of a bit of genetic legacy poking around in us nowadays.

Frankly we don't know that, all we know is, from the author himself, is that the gods feared this exact scenario, so the rules still apply. For all we know the gods are actively preventing various races from wiping each other out, that is the only explanation for what you just outlined.

[ebarde]

Well it's a bad allegory then, because humans are a single species with minuscule genetic variation, any division in humanity are purely arbitrary. Races or species (again, i only use race because it's fantasy convention, blame people who misnamed them, not me) in OoTS are very different creatures with widely varying traits, it's simply not comparable. You are the one who is dragging real world politics into this, not me. I merely want to discuss this particular species/races in their own context. If the allegory does not fit that's the author's fault, not mine.

Everyone is wrong but you, including the author who wrote the thing

[Dragonus45]

The goblins have one bloody city...

Two actually, at minimum. Remember that the place that they got their army from was also a fairly large and prosperous city.

and one bloody god, a newborn pariah. Goblins have produced armies that could threaten major powers twice, ever, whereas major races have continuously had that capability just about forever.

This is a bit to much of an absolute statement considering how little we know about the history of the OOTS universe and the history of Goblinoids before TDOs rise. At best we know that the events leading to his death meant that the various other races were more observant about keeping that kind of force from building up since.

IIRC, a nat 20 only automatically succeeds on attack rolls. Saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, etc. do not have auto-successes or auto-fails on nat 20s or nat 1s.

Uh, I might be letting to many editions could me knowledge but I am fairly certain the crit success/fail rules also apply to Saves. If not then a Nat20 probably would still equal success considering various bonuses.

[ebarde]

The dark one is supposed to be unique as he was the first to unify the goblinoids under one banner, so pretty much by definition no goblin army ever came close to his cause they were all splintered factions.

[Samoja1]

Everyone is wrong but you, including the author who wrote the thing

Who's everyone? Also that does not constitute an argument. I can disagree with how the author thinks things would work out, based on the information given. Being author does not make you inherently right.

[Dragonus45]

The dark one is supposed to be unique as he was the first to unify the goblinoids under one banner, so pretty much by definition no goblin army ever came close to his cause they were all splintered factions.

Yes and no, even the army that took AC was just Hobs even. It didn't have say, an equally big army of the various other goblinoid races. My assumption with TDO's army given that evidence is that was probably the kind of improbably large super army that made even that one look small.

[Samoja1]

The goblins have one bloody city and one bloody god, a newborn pariah. Goblins have produced armies that could threaten major powers twice, ever, whereas major races have continuously had that capability just about forever. Goblins are not in a better position to do anything than any of the major races.

In any event, I do not subscribe to your belief that all Stickworld civilizations are a breath away from perpetual bloodbath and monospecies rule, so I have no reason to care that you for some reason have opinions about only suppressing goblins in particular based on such a belief. Cheers.

You are getting really worked up over imaginary races in imaginary world, i was expecting honest debate, without prejudice, not an inquisition. It's not my fault that's the conclusion that arises from the known data, i would be more then open to be proven wrong, so long as you agree to argue in good faith, and leave your emotions at the door. Just because i follow the line of reasonong to it's logical conclusion does not mean i like the implication.

[KorvinStarmast]

This, my fellow readers, is what Durkon had to describe to Redcloak, who is so obsessed with conspiracies and threats from every angle that he rejected the idea that the Sapphire Guard would NOT necessarily know anything about the other gates, until there was no other possibility that could remotely be entertained. This was never going to go well.

So what you are telling us is that Durkon had an uphill fight, and even someone as persuasive as Haley might have had a rough go of this?

Pretty much only Thor has the right idea here --

And he alone of all of the gods seems to want to act. He is in a 1 versus 50 situation here. Not good odds, unless one is going to treat probability the way the author and Drama does.

Goblins don't have the gods on their side

neither did anybody at Verdun, but they fought on nonetheless. To put this differently, I am not convinced that TDO is on Redcloak's side, but TDO is for sure using Redcloak.

[Lethologica]

Two actually, at minimum. Remember that the place that they got their army from was also a fairly large and prosperous city.


This is a bit to much of an absolute statement considering how little we know about the history of the OOTS universe and the history of Goblinoids before TDOs rise. At best we know that the events leading to his death meant that the various other races were more observant about keeping that kind of force from building up since.

If it's an overstatement, then I'm happy to stipulate that we merely don't have any of the information that would justify Samoja1's statements about goblins being in a uniquely good position to conquer everything. We definitely don't have any of the information that would justify their presumption that divine intervention is the only thing preventing genocide of all but one intelligent species.

[Dragonus45]

If it's an overstatement, then I'm happy to stipulate that we merely don't have any of the information that would justify Samoja1's statements about goblins being in a uniquely good position to conquer everything. We definitely don't have any of the information that would justify their presumption that divine intervention is the only thing preventing genocide of all but one intelligent species.

Oh yea, Samoja1's stuff relies a lot on carrying to many real world assumptions into a fundamentally different universes and then declaring the universe when when it doesn't fit the expected results. It's like some characters in a story I was reading the other day losing it when the people who lived in the fantasy world they were in tried to explain to them the world really was flat, even if a lot of the same evidence for it being round carried over, because even their most basic assumptions about things like the planet revolving around the sun were wrong.

[Samoja1]

If it's an overstatement, then I'm happy to stipulate that we merely don't have any of the information that would justify Samoja1's statements about goblins being in a uniquely good position to conquer everything. We definitely don't have any of the information that would justify their presumption that divine intervention is the only thing preventing genocide of all but one intelligent species.

And there you go again with the big words. It's not genocide, again, that's not how evolution works. One organism simply outcompetes another, it can take a long time, sometimes millions of years even, but the process would likely be sped up with sentient species. I would suggest you read up on biology and evolution, get a good grasp of it, then return to this discussion, that way you will realize why all your arguments up until now went completely past the target. And for the last time, i am not a supreme god of evolution, i don't make the rules, i only study them and draw conclusions, i have absolutely no power to change the outcome of those conclusions, unless i want to be dishonest.

[Gurgeh]

IIRC, a nat 20 only automatically succeeds on attack rolls. Saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, etc. do not have auto-successes or auto-fails on nat 20s or nat 1s.

Nah, natural 20 and 1 being automatic success/failure applies to saving throws as well as attack rolls - though not to skill/ability checks.

It's been a plot point in the comic before!

[Dragonus45]

And there you go again with the big words. It's not genocide, again, that's not how evolution works. One organism simply outcompetes another, it can take a long time, sometimes millions of years even, but the process would likely be sped up with sentient species. I would suggest you read up on biology and evolution, get a good grasp of it, then return to this discussion, that way you will realize why all your arguments up until now went completely past the target. And for the last time, i am not a supreme god of evolution, i don't make the rules, i only study them and draw conclusions, i have absolutely no power to change the outcome of those conclusions, unless i want to be dishonest.

You realize when everyone involved is a fully sentient reasoning being with emotions and lives that it literally becomes genocide to "violently out compete them" no matter where you fall in the whole genus, family, whatever, tree.

[Lethologica]

And there you go again with the big words. It's not genocide, again, that's not how evolution works. One organism simply outcompetes another, it can take a long time, sometimes millions of years even, but the process would likely be sped up with sentient species. I would suggest you read up on biology and evolution, get a good grasp of it, then return to this discussion, that way you will realize why all your arguments up until now went completely past the target. And for the last time, i am not a supreme god of evolution, i don't make the rules, i only study them and draw conclusions, i have absolutely no power to change the outcome of those conclusions, unless i want to be dishonest.

You certainly have the power to misapply evolution to your arguments, though, and you have. Birth rates are not evolutionary destiny, much less societal inevitability.

Also, you spoke of expansionist existential race war between fantasy races upthread, so yes, it is genocide you're speaking of.

We can see in Gobbotopia that goblins are in no way champions of liberty and tolerance, plight of goblin slaves is pretty good preview of what's in store for the rest of good races if goblins take over. The very reason they were contained in the inhospitable parts is that they outbreed any other race even with those restrictions. Right now they are vulnerable, but once their population explodes due to influx of new resources what's to stop them from conquering more and more territory until everyone else is either dead or enslaved? Can you give me one good reason why they shouldn't do it given the chance? Even putting aside their evil alignment every living thing wants to expand, especially humans, in fact i suspect it's only constant threat from evil races that kept Humans, Elves and Dwarves from turning on each other all this time.

[DreamCreator]

Hello. I've read a few pages of this rather long thread and just wanted to say something which I'm not sure has been clearly noted. Granted. It may have been, I just didn't see it. Is there a way to keyword search within a thread? Much appreciated.

It may or may not have been noticed by most, or some, that it is not only the final panel which depicts Durkon's body distorted in the effect of the Implosion spell.

In the second to last panel you can also see his form beginning to warp more subtly but he has not noticed yet. I didn't notice for a while until I reread the strip a bunch of times and realized how his form is not perfectly drawn in that panel but has slightly squeezed together as the spell hit him.

I think this would imply that he has definitely not succeeded his saving throw and will be a *zot* on the ground at the beginning of the next panel.

Or, there will first be a cutaway back to the Order, which will build the suspense as we wonder what happened to Durkon.

[Samoja1]

You realize when everyone involved is a fully sentient reasoning being with emotions and lives that it literally becomes genocide to "violently out compete them" no matter where you fall in the whole genus, family, whatever, tree.

What i'm saying is that i don't believe it would take a form of one cataclysmic crusade, i am not saying that's impossible, there is certainly plenty of precedent for it from our own history, but i don't think that's how it would happen. Rather it would be most likely to take a form of series of border conflicts over many centuries, some or most of which goblins may even have a valid reason for, but in which goblins would consistently outperform other races by a decent margin. Much less dramatic, just as final.

[Peelee]

Evolution/natural selection does not exist in Stickworld.

...yet.

[Samoja1]

You certainly have the power to misapply evolution to your arguments, though, and you have. Birth rates are not evolutionary destiny, much less societal inevitability.

Also, you spoke of expansionist existential race war between fantasy races upthread, so yes, it is genocide you're speaking of.

My point was that i don't see goblins have some sort of special trait that would preclude them from going down this path, see the post above for xlarification. You are all imagining some sort of grand campaign of extermination. History in most cases is far more mundane. Goblins will expand because every nation in history of ever expands, there are both internal and external factors that push them to expand. Again, you are free to bring up an argument why this does not apply here, but "this is imaginart world, duh" is not a good argument.

Even imaginary worlds have rules, and we generaly assume those rules match those in our world unless it is explicitly said otherwise.

Since i see i clearly have to do it i will exlain what i mean by rules, as the example of flat world was brought up before i will take Minecraft as example. Many people say minecraft gravityq makes no sense, since a cube would be crushed into a ball, truth is it makes perfect sense, minecraft gravity simply isn't omnidirectional as in our world, but flows from top to bottom.

With a proper model we can make predictions. If there is no model and all rules are arbitrary and don't flow logically then no model is possivle, and no prediction. Id you want to argue OOTS is one such world that's fine. But that brings up some pretty uncomfortable implications, because whatever author says goes, so if the author says all goblins are inherently evil then they are all inherently evil, until the author says otherwise, this model is also completely inaplicable as any sort of allegory since it's completely arbitrary.

If you want to argue OOTS world has rules and a model, but it's simply different from our own, then you have to explain what rules are changed and why it affects outcomes in this way. In this model the outcomes are not inherently dependent on the author, he sets the rules and gets the ball rolling, but the ball will land on its own based upon the established rules, the author can't just say the ball landed somewhere else, that would mean he is beeaking his own rules, and we are back to rules being arbitrary.

[Samoja1]

Evolution/natural selection does not exist in Stickworld.

...yet.

{Scrubbed}

[understatement]

I would argue Gobotopia has a great leader, considering I think he was the one who initially pushed for a more peaceful stance with the other races and his speech when he took over it was clear he had plans to act diplomatically. What it also has is a Lawful Evil culture predisposed to expansionist conquest for numerous reasons and a very very large army to do so with. Also while we were never given exact numbers for how many people escaped or died versus being turned into slaves they have a massive free labor force and zero moral compunction about using them. Why on earth would they suddenly do a massive turnaround on that and decide to become peaceful farmers without being compelled too? Durkon's plan for sure would have required it, but that plan just got vetoed by someone who doesn't even live there anymore. Which would also have solved the whole "world at sake" problem as well. It's almost like it was the golden (enough) solution to start meaningful progress towards RC's goals of equality and solve the single biggest argument against allowing Gobotopia to exist (so many slaves) all in one fell stroke.

RC for all his work may be the biggest enemy of the goblin people in the end. Because RC doesn't want real progress, which can slow but meaningful and difficult. He wan't a silver bullet, loaded into a gun so big it will take out the entire universe if actually fired, to make it all happen at once. A plan with a pie in the sky victory that will never actually be possible even if it didn't mean the literal instant end of the world because what he want's can't happen overnight and would only actually put Gobotopia into a position of dominance that would literally guarantee it's current culture and populace safe expansion with a weapon too terrible to ever defy. Also, a plan that he is already way to deep into and has lost to much to abandon even when a real solution gets expanded.

The previous hobgoblin settlement that existed in the Southern Mountains were fairly peaceful and still made a living without slaves or military operations. Those are the same people inhabiting Gobbotopia (plus a whole bunch of non-combatants, children, elderly, and other races).

So why would they suddenly release the slaves? It could be that a higher-up issued them to do so, in part of a deal struck between a goblin leader and another member on behalf of the Azurites (whether it'd be the Order, or Hinjo).

I'm not sure why Redcloak was brought up? He isn't the living emblematic soul of the goblinoids, and his decision here is on him. The original discussion was about the evolution of races.

Like many allegories, it often fails if you try to look to hard at making it a one to one thing. The hobgoblins we see are certainly real people deserving of life and a chance at happiness and change, but also are still portrayed as a deeply Evil militaristic culture bound to a super Evil god who gets automatic claim on their souls.

Why is this culture set in stone? Surely the Empire of Blood is also heavily militarized and leans toward evil, but if the Vector Legion were to be disposed of and the slaves freed, then there is a high chance it could be improved and even reformed.

[Dion]

Races or species (again, i only use race because it's fantasy convention, blame people who misnamed them, not me) in OoTS are very different creatures with widely varying traits,

Seriously? Because they all look about the same to me. They’re all two dimensional stick figures. Half the time you can only tell the difference between them because shoes.

[Peelee]

Wow this again?

A.) I was not aware that anyone else had brought that up. After double checking, I am certain nobody did.
2.) You specifically requested evidence that evolution does not apply here:

We can argue morallity, but if you want to argue basic rules of evolution don't apply you will have to provide some evidence of that, cause that's very much extraordinary claim.

[Ruck]

In this context race is pretty much an equivalent of species that is sentient. Multiple races can't thrive together, unless rules od OoTS world are somehow different then rules of our world.

I don't know where this is going, but it's an unfounded assertion I'm afraid will get ugly if you try to support it.

[The MunchKING]

Two actually, at minimum. Remember that the place that they got their army from was also a fairly large and prosperous city.

But I thought they depopulated that one of anyone remotely close to physically fit to for their big army.

Yes and no, even the army that took AC was just Hobs even.

Well Hobgoblins were explicitly the more militaristic, disciplined, and all around better at being armies branch of goblinoids.

It didn't have say, an equally big army of the various other goblinoid races. My assumption with TDO's army given that evidence is that was probably the kind of improbably large super army that made even that one look small.

Like all things of lost, forgotten ages, it was inevitably bigger, cooler, and much more dangerous than anything modern people could come up with.