Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[Cheesegear]

**8th Edition is coming in *17th June*, 2017. It is unwise to start a new army at this time.**

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

What's Dark Vengeance?
Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

How much does it cost?
The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

*Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list.

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives?
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board.

I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies. Most importantly, however, is if you need to know what works and what doesn't, check out one of the linked Guides below, or post your question in the thread!

Helpful Army Building Guides

Spoiler

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7th Edition Guides
Blood Angels
Chaos Space Marines
- Traitor's Hate/Black Legion and Traitor Legions by LeSwordfish
Chaos Daemons
Cult Mechanicus
Dark Eldar
Deathwatch
Grey Knights
Harlequins
Imperial Agents
Khorne Daemonkin by Grim Portent
Necrons by Requizen
Skitarii

Space Marines
- Space Marines, Part II: Chapter Tactics and Special Characters
- Space Marines, Part III:
- - Shadow Force Solaq
- - Kauyon Detachments and Formations

Space Wolves by Squark
Tyranids by Wraith

Tau Empire by Tome
- Farsight Enclaves by Tome

Orks
-WAAAGH!!! Ghazghkull

(Misc.) Fighter Aces by Vaz
A Guide to Fortifications - Stronghold Assault

Kill Team
Guide to Kill Team Specialists

Building on a Budget
Orks
Dark Angels
Chaos Space Marines (Nurgle)
Blood Angels
Grey Knights
Tau Empire
Eldar Craftworlds
Tyranids

Forge World
Siege Assault Vanguard

Imperial Armour
(IA1/2E) Imperial Guard Armoured Battle Group by Issabella
(IA2/2E) Space Marine Vehicles
(IA3/2E) Elysian Drop Troops by Issabella
(IA9 / 10) Space Marine Chapter Tactics and Special Characters
(IA12) The Dark Harvest - Necrons
(IA12) The Minotaurs and Krieg Assault Brigade - Space Marines and Imperial Guard

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics by Vaz
Solar Auxilia by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List by Vaz
Questoris Knights by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List
Legion Special Rules
The Primarchs

Previous Threads

Spoiler

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* Warhammer 40K Tactics
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!"
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!"
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!"
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!"
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends."
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!"
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice)
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese?
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff.
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Cheesegear]

Last Time in The Eternal Darkness...

Magnuses in the mirror are stronger than they appear.
Renegade Paladin has to deal with Tau Supremecy Armour
Is there a way to abuse Soulswitch in a Chaos Marine list?
Any word on Cypher or the Grey Knight fellow's rules?

We now return you to The Darkness.

[Forum Explorer]

When is the next Gathering Storm due anyways?

[Professor Gnoll]

When is the next Gathering Storm due anyways?

It ships on the 11th of March.

[Drasius]

Which army is the best?
That's a loaded question. It depends what points limit you're playing at (at 1500 there really isn't one). But, there is no 'best' army. Plasma beats Terminators beats Mech beats Plasma. 40K is much like Rock, Paper, Scissors. None of the armies are 'best', as each army can be countered. Some armies are better than others, but there is no 'best'.

However, as you play the game you will notice that your Codex doesn't have the units that beat another Codex. That's not to say that you haven't won any games, and it's not to say that your opponents' armies haven't lost several games to armies that just aren't yours. It just means that your army can't beat your opponent's army with what you've got available to you. That's why Allies need to be in the game.

Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies.

These have been bugging me for a while and while the 2nd part isn't quite the long list of have-nots like it used to be, there is a very clear and definate answer to the former and anyone who's spent more than 5 seconds perusing any forum ever or has even the slightest understanding about how a 40k army works know that there's 2 rather sizable elephants in the room and claiming that no one army is "best" hasn't been applicable in quite a while.

Yes, it's a generic post intended for newbies, but lets not pretend that a newbie with Eldar has an appallingly high chance at giving a grizzled non-Eldar veteran a beatdown because he thought spess effs looked cool despite not having a clue how to build an army nor how to play the game.

[Cheesegear]

anyone who's spent more than 5 seconds perusing any forum ever or has even the slightest understanding about how a 40k army works know that there's 2 rather sizable elephants in the room and claiming that no one army is "best" hasn't been applicable in quite a while.

Hey kid, are you interested in buying nothing but Jetbikes and two (or more) Wraithknights?
Hey new player, are you interested in buying at least 9 extra Transports that don't even count towards your points limit?

In addition, if you play either of these armies, you'll have no friends and you'll get no games and you will have completely wasted your money! Does that sound like fun? Rad! Let's go!

Yes, it's a generic post intended for newbies, but lets not pretend that a newbie with Eldar has an appallingly high chance at giving a grizzled non-Eldar veteran a beatdown because he thought spess effs looked cool despite not having a clue how to build an army nor how to play the game.

Which goes back to playing to your meta and to the question of whether or not playing 40K is even right for you.


It's all moot anyway. Within a thread or two the post will be irrelevant and/or completely reworked.

[Drasius]

Hey kid, are you interested in buying nothing but Jetbikes and two (or more) Wraithknights?
Hey new player, are you interested in buying at least 9 extra Transports that don't even count towards your points limit?

In addition, if you play either of these armies, you'll have no friends and you'll get no games and you will have completely wasted your money! Does that sound like fun? Rad! Let's go!

You don't need to do anything more than roll randomly in the Eldar 'Dex to have a list that's better than the majority of non-net list armies, been there, done that, have the horrified T-Shirt. Almost the same for marines, except they have to take grav instead of having a choice. I'm not saying that the answer to "which army should I buy?" is always Eldar or Marines (unless you want to play competatively), but to pretend that there is no "best" army for the last couple of years is basically just blatent lies. Yes, yes, pick the army that you think looks the coolest by all means, it's the best advice anyone can give or recieve for choosing their first army because for most, really, really liking your army theme, colours and models are more important to getting addicted to the plastic crack that we call a hobby than being able to drive your friends plastic models before you and hear the lamentations of their dice, but it's galling to have the first post say "there is no army, they're all mostly even" and then we spend the majority of our time bitching about how OP eldar and marines are and how Orks and DE are dumpster fires that are lucky to last 4 turns against "real" armies.

Which goes back to playing to your meta and to the question of whether or not playing 40K is even right for you.

Also true, but you're not a blackshirt (to the best of my knowledge), it's not your job to sell models to chumps who don't know better and think that flak missiles are an excellent use of points.

It's all moot anyway. Within a thread or two the post will be irrelevant and/or completely reworked.

Fair enough, it's just been bugging me for ages and seeing it again just reminded me to post up about it while we were still on page 1 instead of reading 2-3 pages of replies and forgetting about it.

ION: Played a game today against Khorne Daemons with my IW with the new psychic maelstrom type cards. They're could definately be fun, but it's rediculously unbalanced unless both armies have stuff that can benefit. Facing down 2x T8 bloodthirsters (one with armour of scorn, naturally, to make him effectively T9), some T6 'crushers, T6 hounds, T5 'letters and a skull cannon turn 1 at 1250 is not my idea of a fun time on a 4x4. CSM dex is now mid teir (IMHO), but can't compete with those sort of shenanigans.

[lord_khaine]

Isnt it a little early to start the new thread?
As i saw there were a tie between this name and "Two's Company, Three's a £50 Box Set"

[Cheesegear]

but it's galling to have the first post say "there is no army, they're all mostly even" and then we spend the majority of our time bitching about how OP eldar and marines are and how Orks and DE are dumpster fires that are lucky to last 4 turns against "real" armies.

Again, I don't feel like The Playground is the right place to say "#1 Eldar. Gap. #2 Marines. Huge Gap. Everything else." A lot of people might hold that opinion, and it many, many, far too many places, it's true. But I just don't think it's right, for here.

Similarly, I don't feel that it's right to say "If you play Orks or Dark Eldar, you're a terrible person." Because it's simply not true. Orks have some fairly great builds that are reasonably competitive, and Dark Eldar have the one build. The armies aren't bad, just stale. I'm not going to say that Orks aren't competitive, because it's not true. I've lost to Orks, while using a Gladius. And two or three lucky rolls on the SAGs will drop a whole load of Jetbikes. It can be done.

The biggest dividing line is whether or not you play Eternal War or Maelstrom. A lot of Codecies open up when you play Maelstrom, which is one of the reasons I like it. But also how many points you play. Are you going straight to 1850? Or do you play 1500? Less? Are you going to start off in Kill Team? Or 40K in 40 Mins? You're probably going to want to use the same army you used in small points that will eventually use in larger points, right?

But, all Codecies are usable between 1000-1500. All of them. Yes, some are better than others. But, if you're starting out, why do you care what comes after 1500?

Also true, but you're not a blackshirt (to the best of my knowledge), it's not your job to sell models to chumps who don't know better and think that flak missiles are an excellent use of points.

No. But it's at least my job to educate. If you want to play Orks competitively, I can tell you how. After I've given you the information you need, you can decide what to do with that information (Depending on how much money you have, whether or not you need to paint all the models, or simply based on what theme you want and how 'competitive Orks' does or doesn't gel with that). Flakk Missiles are okay in the right circumstances (I used to use them all the time, but my Devastators also have Tank Hunters, so it's actually justified). But, if you tell me you want Flakk Missiles before you've actually bought them, I can, at least present you with some better options.

I tell people that their (potential) purchases are garbage all the time. The only reason that the actual Blackshirt puts up with it, is because I can get the customer to spend their money on something better that will actually work. So, in the end, the store still gets money, so it's fine.

The question you need to ask is "How competitive is The Playground?", the answer I usually get in my head is 'Not very'. So my OP reflects that.

[Theodoric]

I'm glad the Playground isn't that competitive-minded. I don't play very competitive games (mostly against my brother, in fact) for the most part. Doesn't mean I want to lose, just that I don't want to base my entire hobby experience on beating the other guy with some bizarre combination of models I don't like. I'm not a fan of saying someone should remove a tiny wargear choice when it's modelled and not having it on the list would mean breaking WYSIWYG. There's no guarantee that guy will go up against an Eldar Skimmer list and really needs those twelve extra points for haywire-grenades or whatever.

Let's leave some space for the people who like to win (or at least, have fun) with the models they want (more or less), not the models they need, okay?

[LeSwordfish]

Again, I don't feel like The Playground is the right place to say "#1 Eldar. Gap. #2 Marines. Huge Gap. Everything else." A lot of people might hold that opinion, and it many, many, far too many places, it's true. But I just don't think it's right, for here.

Similarly, I don't feel that it's right to say "If you play Orks or Dark Eldar, you're a terrible person." Because it's simply not true. Orks have some fairly great builds that are reasonably competitive, and Dark Eldar have the one build. The armies aren't bad, just stale. I'm not going to say that Orks aren't competitive, because it's not true. I've lost to Orks, while using a Gladius. And two or three lucky rolls on the SAGs will drop a whole load of Jetbikes. It can be done.

The biggest dividing line is whether or not you play Eternal War or Maelstrom. A lot of Codecies open up when you play Maelstrom, which is one of the reasons I like it.

My issue here is that the question is asked, and to avoid this level of competitiveness, the answer is deliberately misleading. I think a better answer might be

The Eldar and Space Marine codices are way better than the others in a competitive setting, but we have lots of guides on how to do good things with all the others, and you'll have more fun playing a codex you enjoy than pressing the win button. That's certainly the philosophy we like to talk about here!

Or alternatively:

Some codices are way better than the others in a competitive settings, and you'll probably figure out pretty soon which ones, but we have lots of guides blah blah blah the rest of what that says above

Or even just remove it from the FAQ entirely. It's a complicated enough question to deserve a proper answer: let's not fob people off with alternative facts instead of having this discussion.

[Cheesegear]

Or even just remove it from the FAQ entirely...

So it is written, so it is done.

[LeSwordfish]

It probably doesn't make much sense to change it now, what with the world turning upside down soon, but the "How much does it cost" question could be changed up too. I ran the maths: you can get Dark Vengeance, a Start Collecting set, a codex, the "paint and glue and clippers" starter box, and one more mid-size purchase (I picked a Dreadnought, but £30 - my budget - gets you some pretty cool stuff if you just want to grab something neat-looking off the shelves) - all for a shade under £200. That's a solid chunk less than you'd pay for a PS4 + game.

[Drasius]

Again, I don't feel like The Playground is the right place to say "#1 Eldar. Gap. #2 Marines. Huge Gap. Everything else." A lot of people might hold that opinion, and it many, many, far too many places, it's true. But I just don't think it's right, for here.

That's all well and good (though I don't agree with you, I can understand why you think that way), but it's just that, saying that all codecies sort of balance out at 1500 just flat out isn't true and if someone comes in here and wants to run 1500 points of DE against their friends 1500 of Eldar because they both think space elves are awesome, well, I'm fairly comfortable predicting the outcome of those games 99 times out of 100 without even seeing the lists.

Similarly, I don't feel that it's right to say "If you play Orks or Dark Eldar, you're a terrible person." Because it's simply not true. Orks have some fairly great builds that are reasonably competitive, and Dark Eldar have the one build. The armies aren't bad, just stale. I'm not going to say that Orks aren't competitive, because it's not true. I've lost to Orks, while using a Gladius. And two or three lucky rolls on the SAGs will drop a whole load of Jetbikes. It can be done.

I'm definately not suggesting that people who want to play DE or Orks are bad people (my views have already been made very clear that there's usually only 1 army that terrible people gravitate to), just that they're in for hard mode Ironman and that they can't just pick what they think looks cool and expect to be able to make a game of it (unless they really like Talos and Venoms).

The biggest dividing line is whether or not you play Eternal War or Maelstrom. A lot of Codecies open up when you play Maelstrom, which is one of the reasons I like it. But also how many points you play. Are you going straight to 1850? Or do you play 1500? Less? Are you going to start off in Kill Team? Or 40K in 40 Mins? You're probably going to want to use the same army you used in small points that will eventually use in larger points, right?

Might I be so bold as to suggest that this is included in the "how to warhammer for newbies" guide next time 'round then, because that at least warns people that not all armies are viable in all game types.

No. But it's at least my job to educate. If you want to play Orks competitively, I can tell you how. After I've given you the information you need, you can decide what to do with that information (Depending on how much money you have, whether or not you need to paint all the models, or simply based on what theme you want and how 'competitive Orks' does or doesn't gel with that). Flakk Missiles are okay in the right circumstances (I used to use them all the time, but my Devastators also have Tank Hunters, so it's actually justified). But, if you tell me you want Flakk Missiles before you've actually bought them, I can, at least present you with some better options.

I tell people that their (potential) purchases are garbage all the time. The only reason that the actual Blackshirt puts up with it, is because I can get the customer to spend their money on something better that will actually work. So, in the end, the store still gets money, so it's fine.

Again, saying that orks and DE can play on a roughly level playing field if they take certain units and avoid others like the plague is very different from what I'm seeing in the OP. Maybe I'm reading more into it because I'm a cranky old man jaded by too many one sided losses playing a have not codex for 4 years while every other strong army just kept getting even stronger things to crush me in a variety of different ways, but I honestly believe that you've forgotten just how frustrating it can be to put a have-not 'dex on the table.

Again, don't get me wrong, the idea that you've expressed above about telling people how to make what they like = what isn't terrible is exactly the sort of thing that this forums is meant to be for and I greatly value your insight into how to make stuff work, especially stuff I don't encounter up here, but I just feel that some sort of qualification on "take what you like and it'll be OK" is required.

The question you need to ask is "How competitive is The Playground?", the answer I usually get in my head is 'Not very'. So my OP reflects that.

Oh, I agree with you there, but again, just seems ... misleading's not the right word, but it's about as close as I can manage, to say that there's no best army and that all 'dexes can win if they really believe in themselves. I can't count the amount of times I've had a really cool (to me) idea for an army, spent days on end building lists and doing research on how to make stuff work only to get disappointed that I can't make a workable army out of my idea, but also with a certain amount of thankfulness that I didn't waste $1000 AUD and hundreds/thousands of hours assembling and painting an army that's going to get bent over violently when they get put on the table because I already have enough shelf-warmers and dust-gatherers that I don't need another failed project taking up valuable painting time. While that's fine for me because I can (usually) recognise when things aren't going to work, I don't want new guys (or gals) to come in here with the wrong impression and then get super bummed when all their hard work has been for nothing because they're getting tabled on turn 4 every game

I'm glad the Playground isn't that competitive-minded. I don't play very competitive games (mostly against my brother, in fact) for the most part. Doesn't mean I want to lose, just that I don't want to base my entire hobby experience on beating the other guy with some bizarre combination of models I don't like. I'm not a fan of saying someone should remove a tiny wargear choice when it's modelled and not having it on the list would mean breaking WYSIWYG. There's no guarantee that guy will go up against an Eldar Skimmer list and really needs those twelve extra points for haywire-grenades or whatever.

Let's leave some space for the people who like to win (or at least, have fun) with the models they want (more or less), not the models they need, okay?

That's great, but if you're not interested in being competative, then you take whatever the hell you want and there's no discussion because you don't care about winning, you just want to put your dudes on the table and roll some dice. When you cross that line into caring if you win, you can't completely dismiss the tactical application of forces, nor the fact that IMHO, list construction is more of a factor on who wins or loses than tactics or dice rolls. I'm definately not saying that you shouldn't put what you like on the table (hell, I struggled along with my Sons for years before they got an update to make them remotely playable), but as soon as you decide that you can't or don't want to change your list, there's nothing to discuss anymore, because you're going to take what you're going to take and there's nothing for anyone to help. There's a big difference between saying "I think bikes are dumb, jump pack units do just as well, I'll take 30x assault marines, it'll be awesome!" and saying "I think Bikes are dumb, and even though jump pack units suck hard in comparison, they can still do a similar job as long as they pick their targets and the terrain gives them options. Maybe I should look at what I can do with BA allies?". You're still not taking bikes regardless, but you are opening yourself up to the idea that there's a niche that can be filled with some units/armies better than others, which is where the discussion part of the forum kicks in.

[Theodoric]

That's great, but if you're not interested in being competative, then you take whatever the hell you want and there's no discussion because you don't care about winning, you just want to put your dudes on the table and roll some dice. When you cross that line into caring if you win, you can't completely dismiss the tactical application of forces, nor the fact that IMHO, list construction is more of a factor on who wins or loses than tactics or dice rolls. I'm definately not saying that you shouldn't put what you like on the table (hell, I struggled along with my Sons for years before they got an update to make them remotely playable), but as soon as you decide that you can't or don't want to change your list, there's nothing to discuss anymore, because you're going to take what you're going to take and there's nothing for anyone to help.

I believe there's a bit more wiggle room between positions. There's more than a few trap choices in every codex and builds that obviously ineffective and you'd better avoid, or least find a niche to use them with (if that's possible). 'Play Eldar, Marines or go home' isn't useful advice except to hardcore players of the game, and those aren't necessarily the same as hardcore members of the hobby.

At least with the people I play the game with there's not a binary choice between having a fun and fluffy army and being able to win ('Though I understand that the game's balance is far from perfect and there's a few options that beat all comers unless you pick an equally unbalanced army list, and some armies are very underpowered right out of the gate). I think there can be a balance between the two elements and discussing how exactly to reach that balance (having a fully functional, fluffy army that's not just marines and wraithknights) is a sensible thing to do. 'Though maybe your experience and/or taste is different.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I do think it would of service to newbies to indicate that while it shouldn't necessarily affect their army selection, there are definite tiers of factions in play. Using another tabletop example, being aware of the different tiers of character class in D&D definitely benefited me as a player because it gave me a standard against which to compare things. It also helped me understand how the mechanics of the game work, and why certain options sucked more than others (looking at you, truenamer).

A little head's up that not all armies are created equal, and that Maelstrom/Eternal War choice can have an effect on your army's effectiveness, would be appropriate IMO. If someone really wants to play Tyranids or Orks, they should at least get a head's up that their meta might make that more difficult than it might otherwise be.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree. I mean, we've fairly well determined what armies are in what tier, and so we can at least let them know what they are getting into.

[Cheesegear]

That's all well and good (though I don't agree with you, I can understand why you think that way), but it's just that, saying that all codecies sort of balance out at 1500 just flat out isn't true and if someone comes in here and wants to run 1500 points of DE against their friends 1500 of Eldar because they both think space elves are awesome, well, I'm fairly comfortable predicting the outcome of those games 99 times out of 100 without even seeing the lists.

Well, how many Wraithknights are there?
But Gathering Storm II: Aeldari Boogaloo fixed a few problems, as Supplements are wont to do. Since Dark Eldar die easily and give out 'free' Soulbursts.

I'm also of the opinion that you should never not use Allies if you need them; And Dark Eldar have access to the best supplement in the game - Codex: Eldar. If you're still thinking of Codecies individually, you're playing 7th Ed. wrong.

I'm definately not suggesting that people who want to play DE or Orks are bad people

I actually meant in the vein of 'Your army is bad and you should feel bad.' You play Orks, so therefore you deserve to lose. That's what I meant.

No, only Eldar and Gladius players are actually terrible people...And War Convocation-ers in Eternal War.

Might I be so bold as to suggest that this is included in the "how to warhammer for newbies" guide next time 'round then, because that at least warns people that not all armies are viable in all game types.

I'll work on it.

Oh, I agree with you there, but again, just seems ... misleading's not the right word

I think the word you're looking for is 'disingenuous', and I see where you're coming from. I'm just not sure how to word it on this forum where playing Orks or Dark Eldar is supposed to be okay. See How to Warhammer for Newbies.

While that's fine for me because I can (usually) recognise when things aren't going to work, I don't want new guys (or gals) to come in here with the wrong impression and then get super bummed when all their hard work has been for nothing because they're getting tabled on turn 4 every game

That's why I always say that 40K (at least in 7th Ed.) isn't a hobby you can just 'get into' if you actually want to play the game that the models are designed for. You actually do have to ask questions about what's good and what isn't, and hopefully - just maybe - there'll be someone around to help you.

There's a big difference between saying "I think bikes are dumb, jump pack units do just as well, I'll take 30x assault marines, it'll be awesome!" and saying "I think Bikes are dumb, and even though jump pack units suck hard in comparison, they can still do a similar job as long as they pick their targets and the terrain gives them options. Maybe I should look at what I can do with BA allies?".

*AHEM*
Coteaz makes Space Marines/Black Templars' Assault Marines ObSec. If you aren't doing that, you should be abusing one of the Raven Guard Formations.

Blood Angels are not 'The Assault Marine' army anymore. Competitive Blood Angels near-exclusively run Death Company and/or Terminators now.

I think there can be a balance between the two elements and discussing how exactly to reach that balance...

The issue - for some, including Drasius - is that your meta needs to be open to that sort of discussion.

[Drasius]

I believe there's a bit more wiggle room between positions. There's more than a few trap choices in every codex and builds that obviously ineffective and you'd better avoid, or least find a niche to use them with (if that's possible). 'Play Eldar, Marines or go home' isn't useful advice except to hardcore players of the game, and those aren't necessarily the same as hardcore members of the hobby.

At least with the people I play the game with there's not a binary choice between having a fun and fluffy army and being able to win ('Though I understand that the game's balance is far from perfect and there's a few options that beat all comers unless you pick an equally unbalanced army list, and some armies are very underpowered right out of the gate). I think there can be a balance between the two elements and discussing how exactly to reach that balance (having a fully functional, fluffy army that's not just marines and wraithknights) is a sensible thing to do. 'Though maybe your experience and/or taste is different.

I don't think that's what anyone was suggesting (no matter how accurate it is at higher levels), just that if you don't care about winning, then there's no discussion to be had because you are perfectly happy to put whatever you like on the table without regard for their effectiveness, because you like the models, and then the sliding scale moves along from super fluffbunny to hardcore cheesemonger depending on how much winning means to you (yes, I'm aware that you can have a powerful themed army, but usually only in the power-dexes anyway, and even then, in my experience, it's people who see what's powerful and build an army around it to defend it being fluffy).

[lord_khaine]

No, only Eldar and Gladius players are actually terrible people...And War Convocation-ers in Eternal War.

And i will continue to point out how wrong you are on this point. In particular its a lot easier for people to claim when they actually have the founds to just casually start a new army..

[Drasius]

Well, how many Wraithknights are there?
But Gathering Storm II: Aeldari Boogaloo fixed a few problems, as Supplements are wont to do. Since Dark Eldar die easily and give out 'free' Soulbursts.

Even 1 is too many for DE I think. The real issue becomes why dilute your space elf list with mechanically bad units (ie DE) instead of just taking more mechanically superior units (Eldar) when they're both coming out of the same book and you don't even need allied deatchments anymore? I'm not able to bring to mind a single DE unit that can do a better job at anything compared to the Kraftworld Kousins (of Kormorragh - Alliteration is fun) except for the Archon w/webway portal being able to DS with no scatter, though Bahharoth comes close except that he doesn't hand out DS to units that don't already have it.

I'm also of the opinion that you should never not use Allies if you need them; And Dark Eldar have access to the best supplement in the game - Codex: Eldar. If you're still thinking of Codecies individually, you're playing 7th Ed. wrong.

See above. As to thinking of codecies individually, I personally think that the idea of being able to ally anything with anything else is complete cancer and I really hope that 8th consigns this rubbish to whatever the 8th ed version of "open play" is (along with summoning and a bunch of other stuff). As a sales device, start-a-new-army-because-your-existing-one-sucks is a great plan. For the player who wants their existing faction to be playable without taking Tyranids and Tau to make them work, it's absolutely stupid.

I actually meant in the vein of 'Your army is bad and you should feel bad.' You play Orks, so therefore you deserve to lose. That's what I meant.

No, only Eldar and Gladius players are actually terrible people...And War Convocation-ers in Eternal War.

Ah, I get you now, my bad, I was thinking in a whole different direction.

I think the word you're looking for is 'disingenuous', and I see where you're coming from. I'm just not sure how to word it on this forum where playing Orks or Dark Eldar is supposed to be okay. See How to Warhammer for Newbies.

That's why I always say that 40K (at least in 7th Ed.) isn't a hobby you can just 'get into' if you actually want to play the game that the models are designed for. You actually do have to ask questions about what's good and what isn't, and hopefully - just maybe - there'll be someone around to help you.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for, but had a brain fart and couldn't think of it. As to HtWfN, perhaps:
1. Ask what type of games get played and how many points is the most common
2. Pick an army you think looks cool
3. Unless that army is Eldar, get help (here, in store or both) to build an army around the handful of things you think look awesome, dependant on what type of game and how many points usually get played at your local gaming store.

*AHEM*
Coteaz makes Space Marines/Black Templars' Assault Marines ObSec. If you aren't doing that, you should be abusing one of the Raven Guard Formations.

Blood Angels are not 'The Assault Marine' army anymore. Competitive Blood Angels near-exclusively run Death Company and/or Terminators now.

Fair enough, I'm totally out of the loop on marines because most of our worst powergamers have stopped playing them (or anything else for that matter) and when I think BA jumpers, I think DC.

The issue - for some, including Drasius - is that your meta needs to be open to that sort of discussion.

Yep.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, how many Wraithknights are there?
But Gathering Storm II: Aeldari Boogaloo fixed a few problems, as Supplements are wont to do. Since Dark Eldar die easily and give out 'free' Soulbursts.

I'm also of the opinion that you should never not use Allies if you need them; And Dark Eldar have access to the best supplement in the game - Codex: Eldar. If you're still thinking of Codecies individually, you're playing 7th Ed. wrong.

My problem with that is Eldar overshine Dark Eldar in pretty much every way. If you're taking Eldar allies, the question becomes; why take any Dark Eldar?

Imperial Guard have the same problem. Why take Ogryns when you can ally in some Assault Marines? Why take Ratlings when you can take Scouts? Why take Heavy Weapons Teams when you can take Devastators. Next thing you know, you've got 90% Space Marines with some Leman Russes or other tanks.

Even 1 is too many for DE I think. The real issue becomes why dilute your space elf list with mechanically bad units (ie DE) instead of just taking more mechanically superior units (Eldar) when they're both coming out of the same book and you don't even need allied deatchments anymore? I'm not able to bring to mind a single DE unit that can do a better job at anything compared to the Kraftworld Kousins (of Kormorragh - Alliteration is fun) except for the Archon w/webway portal being able to DS with no scatter, though Bahharoth comes close except that he doesn't hand out DS to units that don't already have it.



See above. As to thinking of codecies individually, I personally think that the idea of being able to ally anything with anything else is complete cancer and I really hope that 8th consigns this rubbish to whatever the 8th ed version of "open play" is (along with summoning and a bunch of other stuff). As a sales device, start-a-new-army-because-your-existing-one-sucks is a great plan. For the player who wants their existing faction to be playable without taking Tyranids and Tau to make them work, it's absolutely stupid.

Exactly that. Though I'd say that DE can actually handle a single Wraithknight since all their guns can hurt it at least.

[Drasius]

Voldis has frag grenades...his thunder hammer IS NOT unwieldy

[Bobby Baratheon]

That is actually really exciting. I needed something to get me back to working on my CSM army, and having a Fallen contingent might do just that. I already have the old cypher model as well as stupid amounts of DA generic marines lying around, waiting for conversions.

[Cheesegear]

My Blackshirt will be so upset. He was so looking forward to being able to use Cypher in his Dark Angels army.
He was convinced that Cypher would be 'forgiven' in the upcoming storyline.

Posted from phone.

[Drasius]

Though I'd say that DE can actually handle a single Wraithknight since all their guns can hurt it at least.

It takes 243 BS4 poisoned shots to deal 6 unsaved wounds to a WK. Technically, yes, you can hurt it the same way you can hurt a Riptide with bolt pistols. Functionally, it's immune to everything DE have but dark lances (where it "only" takes 27 shot to deal 6 unsaved wounds to a non-sword and board WK). All the above numbers also assume that it's not invisible or none of the eldar witches gets renewer in which case it moves from "functionally unkillable" to "technically unkillable, even if your entire army fired at it for 7 rounds".

[Forum Explorer]

It takes 243 BS4 poisoned shots to deal 6 unsaved wounds to a WK. Technically, yes, you can hurt it the same way you can hurt a Riptide with bolt pistols. Functionally, it's immune to everything DE have but dark lances (where it "only" takes 27 shot to deal 6 unsaved wounds to a non-sword and board WK). All the above numbers also assume that it's not invisible or none of the eldar witches gets renewer in which case it moves from "functionally unkillable" to "technically unkillable, even if your entire army fired at it for 7 rounds".

It's the added benefit though. You hit it with a Blaster and the rest of the squad. While say, an Imperial Knight, all you get is the Blaster.

[Cheesegear]

Functionally, it's immune to everything DE have but dark lances

Dark Eldar drop a Wraithknight using Corpsethief Claw with Fleshbane, Instant Death weapons.
Two Wraithknights, however, presents a problem.

Posted from phone.

[Bobby Baratheon]

My Blackshirt will be so upset. He was so looking forward to being able to use Cypher in his Dark Angels army.
He was convinced that Cypher would be 'forgiven' in the upcoming storyline.

Posted from phone.

I feel like he should have known that was improbable at best? Anyone with a passing familiarity with the Dark Angels could have predicted them not being too stoked about the Fallen and Cypher teaming up with Girlyman.

[Cheesegear]

Well, here's what I came up with...

Black Legion, CAD
(W) Abaddon the Despoiler - 265 Points

Chosen (x10); x4 Meltaguns, Flamer, Melta Bombs, Slaanesh, Excess - 285 Points
Cultists (x10); Flamer - 55 Points

Black Legion, Cyclopia Cabal
Sorcerer; [Stave], ML3, Spell Familiar - 125 Points
Sorcerer; [Stave], ML3, Spell Familiar - 125 Points
Sorcerer; [Stave], ML3, Spell Familiar - 125 Points

World Eaters, CAD
Chaos Lord; Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Jump Pack, Talisman of Burning Blood - 145 Points

Cultists (x10); Flamer, Khorne - 75
Cultists (x10); Flamer, Khorne - 75

Raptors (x10); x2 Meltaguns, Melta Bombs - 205 Points

Total: 1480 Points
[Everything has Veterans]

A Heldrake for taste is 170. Although you do have 370 Points for a Renegade Knight. I thought about putting in some Terminators for Turn 1 Deep Strike, but that only happens in a Speartip. I think this is pretty close to the 'best' Turn 1 Soulswitch on Chaos Marines.