Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

This OP is currently full of placeholder answers. Check back in a week.

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy a Start Collecting! box and your favourite Index.
Or, if you're specifically into Primaris Marines or Death Guard, GW has conveniently set up a number of 'beginner boxes' to get you started.

What's Dark Imperium?
Dark Imperium contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

Comments on Dark Imperium forces.

How much does it cost?
Placeholder Answer.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army. Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
The recommended minimum is 750.
However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list.

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1000 Points with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

Comments on Power Rating.

What's the difference between Power Rating and Points Cost?
...A lot.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives?
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want at least anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. Don't forget that not all Terrain is 'equal', and you will definitely want a few pieces of terrain that block Line of Sight.

I don't like using Unique Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Unique Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Unique Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Unique Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Especially if you play Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
Not exactly. There are certainly bad, individual units. But, on the whole, every Faction is playable. However, you must remember that Allies are an intended part of the game - even if you, personally don't like them. If your Faction's entire army list is lacking in a certain area, you may have to consider whether or not it was intended to be that way, and you will have to consider whether or not to bring Allies into your army.

Helpful Army Building Guides

Spoiler

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Chaos Space Marines by LeSwordfish
Dark Angels
Death Guard by LeSwordfish
Grey Knights
Space Marines Part I - Part II Outdated.

Index: Imperium I
Deathwatch

Building on a Budget
TBD.

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics by Vaz
Solar Auxilia by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List by Vaz
Questoris Knights by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List
Legion Special Rules
The Primarchs

Previous Threads

Spoiler

Show

* Warhammer 40K Tactics
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!"
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!"
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!"
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!"
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends."
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!"
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice)
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese?
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff.
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
* XXX: Imperium After Dark
* XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Cheesegear]

Last Time in the Eternal Darkness...

I forgot to talk about Drukhari like what I was supposed to...
Campaign Stuff
Is this an easy list?

...Welcome Back to the Darkness.

[Ionbound]

I was thinking of a paint scheme for a custom legion and I wanted to run it by here: Red primary color with silver livery and edgelights (and maybe a drybrush as well to make the armor look work), and blue lenses for the power armor eyes and other details that need to be colored.

[Cheesegear]

Red primary color with silver livery and edgelights...

Is that different to Word Bearers?

[Ionbound]

Brighter, less-brownish red, probably closer to the Blood Angel's base colors then the World Bearer's, or the pre-Heresy Thousand Sons.

[Brookshw]

Bookmarked.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm considering attempting to run a narrative tournament at my local gamestore. Does anyone have any recommendations on how to select what missions people would be playing, how to score the missions, and how to determine the attacker and defender?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Narrative Tournaments are tricky. What I find best is story-based Narratives, where one person plays "DM", sets up a scenario, and decides what happens with the results, branching win-lose. But that works best as a two-person campaign of repeated encounters, not a multi-person campaign.

[Cheesegear]

Alright. Dark Eldar Troops. Keep in mind that this is pre-Codex. So maybe don't go out and deliberately buy something because I told you to...

Kabalite Warriors: At a whopping 7 points each, they're pretty cheap. Don't be fooled, however. Against Guardsmen, they have no better than a Lasgun. Against Sisters, they still have Lasguns, but now the Sisters gets their Power Armour save and it's totally different. Where Kabalites start getting good, however, is in 'Marine metas', as now Kabalites now carry Boltguns for 7 Points. That's less than everything else, and that better chance To Wound, combined with only being 7 Points each, makes Kabalites better than anything in the <Imperium> for killing Marines. Unfortunately, as good as Kabalites are, they aren't even the best unit in their Faction...

Guardian Defenders: Guardians are 8 Points each. Gross, right? Unfortunately, they come stock with S4 weapons that occasionally ignore Armour as well as a Plasma weapon. Baller. At 12" range, with Assault weapons with Battle Focus (we'll come back), Guardians are one of the strongest units in the game - including Guardsmen! Whom they're actually equal to! - and from there they only get better. The biggest issue is their 12" range. At 12" range (that's Charge-ranged for most units), they dominate the game. Those 'every other shot is Plasma' Shurikens really know how to hurt. Outside of 12", where most units lose their Rapid Fire double shots and their effectiveness is basically halved, Guardians' effectiveness drops to 0. Making them literally the worst. 7" Elf Move doesn't even help because 12+7 = 19, still falling short of the standard/good 24" threat range. So there's that. But Shurikens are Assault weapons. Great. You've got Battle Focus so you wont take the -1 To Hit, but you'll still need a 5+ on your Advance dice.

Good news is that you're Ynnari, so you can pick whichever you want.

Wyches: Wyches are a Melee unit that can't be in Melee on Turn 1. Don't waste your points.

Wracks: Wracks are a Melee unit that can't be in Melee on Turn 1, and prevent you from taking the Ynnari Faction on your Detachment. Absolutely don't waste your points.

I'm considering attempting to run a narrative tournament at my local gamestore. Does anyone have any recommendations on how to select what missions people would be playing, how to score the missions, and how to determine the attacker and defender?

I assume you've read pg 272-73 of the rulebook? Always start there.

[Turalisj]

Bookmarked

[DataNinja]

I was thinking of a paint scheme for a custom legion and I wanted to run it by here: Red primary color with silver livery and edgelights (and maybe a drybrush as well to make the armor look work), and blue lenses for the power armor eyes and other details that need to be colored.

Is there anything in particular that you're trying to ask about? Because if it's just 'does this work', all that matters is that you like how it looks.

[Forum Explorer]

Alright. Dark Eldar Troops. Keep in mind that this is pre-Codex. So maybe don't go out and deliberately buy something because I told you to...

Kabalite Warriors: At a whopping 7 points each, they're pretty cheap. Don't be fooled, however. Against Guardsmen, they have no better than a Lasgun. Against Sisters, they still have Lasguns, but now the Sisters gets their Power Armour save and it's totally different. Where Kabalites start getting good, however, is in 'Marine metas', as now Kabalites now carry Boltguns for 7 Points. That's less than everything else, and that better chance To Wound, combined with only being 7 Points each, makes Kabalites better than anything in the <Imperium> for killing Marines. Unfortunately, as good as Kabalites are, they aren't even the best unit in their Faction...

Guardian Defenders: Guardians are 8 Points each. Gross, right? Unfortunately, they come stock with S4 weapons that occasionally ignore Armour as well as a Plasma weapon. Baller. At 12" range, with Assault weapons with Battle Focus (we'll come back), Guardians are one of the strongest units in the game - including Guardsmen! Whom they're actually equal to! - and from there they only get better. The biggest issue is their 12" range. At 12" range (that's Charge-ranged for most units), they dominate the game. Those 'every other shot is Plasma' Shurikens really know how to hurt. Outside of 12", where most units lose their Rapid Fire double shots and their effectiveness is basically halved, Guardians' effectiveness drops to 0. Making them literally the worst. 7" Elf Move doesn't even help because 12+7 = 19, still falling short of the standard/good 24" threat range. So there's that. But Shurikens are Assault weapons. Great. You've got Battle Focus so you wont take the -1 To Hit, but you'll still need a 5+ on your Advance dice.

Good news is that you're Ynnari, so you can pick whichever you want.

Wyches: Wyches are a Melee unit that can't be in Melee on Turn 1. Don't waste your points.

Wracks: Wracks are a Melee unit that can't be in Melee on Turn 1, and prevent you from taking the Ynnari Faction on your Detachment. Absolutely don't waste your points.



I assume you've read pg 272-73 of the rulebook? Always start there.

Point of order; if you are going ynnari, you can't have battle focus.

I have. My instinct is to say Matrix, but that means people aren't playing the same game, which makes me feel uneasy.

[Cheesegear]

Is there anything in particular that you're trying to ask about? Because if it's just 'does this work', all that matters is that you like how it looks.

Not even that.
"What do you think of my paint scheme?" can't work, because you haven't done it yet. You have to show people a mock-up, or a prototype. Preferably next to other models.

If you've got spare money (and time), I've often said - not here, I don't think - that the best thing you can do for a paint scheme, is to buy a box of the models you're going to use the most, and paint all of them differently. Yep. All of them. Five. Ten. All of them get painted differently. Only after you've seen it, can you properly judge it. Painting is art, is therefore subjective, which means you can't judge it until it's done (and especially you can't show other people to get their opinion, because they're not looking at anything). And then every model you don't like how you painted, gets chucked in the Dettol bath.

Point of order; if you are going ynnari, you can't have battle focus.

No, but you do get Strength From Death which will give you extra Movement (7"), which is better than anything you can pull off of an Advance rolls. Or you can shoot a bajillion times and get more attacks than your points value says you should get, which is...Good.

[Forum Explorer]

No, but you do get Strength From Death which will give you extra Movement (7"), which is better than anything you can pull off of an Advance rolls. Or you can shoot a bajillion times and get more attacks than your points value says you should get, which is...Good.

That's true, and strength from death is clearly better, but it's something you have to keep in mind. Because you design your army much differently if you are looking to maximize strength from death benefits.

[Drasius]

If you've got spare money (and time), I've often said - not here, I don't think - that the best thing you can do for a paint scheme, is to buy a box of the models you're going to use the most, and paint all of them differently. Yep. All of them. Five. Ten. All of them get painted differently. Only after you've seen it, can you properly judge it. Painting is art, is therefore subjective, which means you can't judge it until it's done (and especially you can't show other people to get their opinion, because they're not looking at anything). And then every model you don't like how you painted, gets chucked in the Dettol bath.

For a less expensive and less time consuming (though nowhere near as good) option, see the spess muhreen online army painter (courtesy of bolter&chainsword) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/smp.php . I've found it a big help when planning out stuff and it gives a rough idea if your scheme will look remotely decent. Still no substitute for actual test models however. Alternately, firing up your favourite version of Dawn of War also yields solid results, though with a much more limited colour selection.

[Mystic Muse]

Darn you GW, for advertising a Forgeworld model in your space marines codex, and making me want it. Freaking ThunderHawk.

[LansXero]

Alright. Dark Eldar Troops. Keep in mind that this is pre-Codex. So maybe don't go out and deliberately buy something because I told you to...

So one of the guys at the store got Wyches and Wracks, because a retiring player was letting them go for cheap :v. But not too many, so its not a big deal.

If its not abusing your generosity, mind putting up a 550 list together? He wants to play DE more than Ynnari (not that it matters at this low point level I think), but since the event is tomorrow (later today actually, its past midnight here) I really dont have enough time to check the index and build him something (he can proxy, we got lots of minis), and I dont want him to be soured on the game / faction after playing wyches / wracks and getting tabled.

[Forum Explorer]

So one of the guys at the store got Wyches and Wracks, because a retiring player was letting them go for cheap :v. But not too many, so its not a big deal.

If its not abusing your generosity, mind putting up a 550 list together? He wants to play DE more than Ynnari (not that it matters at this low point level I think), but since the event is tomorrow (later today actually, its past midnight here) I really dont have enough time to check the index and build him something (he can proxy, we got lots of minis), and I dont want him to be soured on the game / faction after playing wyches / wracks and getting tabled.

Can you be more specific on what models he has? Is it literally nothing but wyches and wracks? If, so how many of them?

[LansXero]

Can you be more specific on what models he has? Is it literally nothing but wyches and wracks? If, so how many of them?

20 wyches, 10 wracks; we've got loads of orks, marines (loyal and plagued), poxwalkers and warmahordes minis to proxy with though.

Due to the hobby / the game being kinda small still in our country, we order from GW every month or so; tomorrow we have a friendly get together to teach the game, try stuff and iron out rules questions; from that, ideally people will figure out what they want / works, so we can order it for them in this month's GW shipment (we do import stuff from the US weekly; GW being in the UK makes that impractical)

So while it would be good to use what he already has as a base, its more important for me that he knows whats good and gets that, because piling up fixes on models that just dont work (and wyches seem way too fragile and slow to work as melee) is spending money the guy doesnt have.

[Forum Explorer]

Well try this maybe:

Spoiler: 550 points

Show

Patrol Detachment

Succubus with Blast Pistol and Archite Glaive: 82

9 Wyches and a Hekatrix with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 95
1 Raider with Dark Lance: 115

5 Trueborn with 4 Blasters: 115
1 Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 95

7 Warriors: 49

Total: 551

If you don't have anything you can use to proxy a Raider and a Venom, then I suggest

Spoiler: 550 points

Show

Patrol Detachment

Succubus with Blast Pistol and Archite Glaive: 82

10 Wyches with 3 Hydra Gauntlets and a Hekatrix with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 116

10 Wyches with 2 Hydra Gauntlets and a Hekatrix with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 112

5 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances: 95

5 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances: 95

7 Warriors: 49

Total: 549

See, it's really tough to say what you're meta will be like since it's still developing, and because it's still developing, it's tough to know if Wyches will work or not. Cheesegear's advice is geared towards a super competitive meta, and if possible, I would try and discourage that your meta from becoming like his. It might anyways, you never know, but if it does, then it's a lot of people playing the top tier army, and basically you must run the absolute best list you can, else you'll just lose. In a more casual meta, you can generally play what you want, unless what you want is completely trash (which sometimes happens).

That being said, Dark Eldar absolutely love their transports. Since all of their units are typically very fragile, it provides some much needed protection. And if you want to run Wyches, that protection is vital, as you need to close the distance. Luckily the transports both make your army smaller (so you're more likely to go first), and give you the speed. And they provide decent shooting as well. Remember, coming out of the transport, you get an extra 3 inches to disembark, effectively giving Wyches an 11 inch move. You might not be able to pull of a first inch charge (unless the opponent moves up/SUA's units close by), but you should be able to do a second turn charge.

If you are running Power from Pain, then you'll also get a reroll to charges by turn 2, which is just critical to making those critical charges that the Wytches need to be useful.

Wracks likely fall into the 'it's completely trash' category. They might be able to work with Homonculus support, and a full Homonculus Covens army, but even then, you're better off just taking Kabalite Warriors with basic guns instead.

[LansXero]

Our meta, what little there is of it, is composed of:
- Me, running Sisters (although I can step out to let newbies play each other)
- a guy running 60 boys + some psyker Ork HQ and a waagh banner
- an Ultramarine 2x whirlwinds list
- Death Guard poxwalkers+plague marines (know no fear starter) x2
- Primaris (know no fear starter) x2
- Black Templars ft. Land Raider

Right now its a few newcomers, plus a couple 5th edition veterans coming back; there is an older community in the city, but they are mostly casual / bound to home games, so as you say the 'meta' is still developing. Still, Im not too sure how well will melee infantry on foot do against 2x whirlwinds, or a primaris shooting gallery.

[Forum Explorer]

Our meta, what little there is of it, is composed of:
- Me, running Sisters (although I can step out to let newbies play each other)
- a guy running 60 boys + some psyker Ork HQ and a waagh banner
- an Ultramarine 2x whirlwinds list
- Death Guard poxwalkers+plague marines (know no fear starter) x2
- Primaris (know no fear starter) x2
- Black Templars ft. Land Raider

Right now its a few newcomers, plus a couple 5th edition veterans coming back; there is an older community in the city, but they are mostly casual / bound to home games, so as you say the 'meta' is still developing. Still, Im not too sure how well will melee infantry on foot do against 2x whirlwinds, or a primaris shooting gallery.

The on foot list? Likely not all that well. Like I said, Dark Eldar love their transports. If it isn't on a transport, it is otherwise really fast. The only real exception to that will be going full Homonculus Coven, which tends to be much tougher in exchange. I'd almost say Raiders and Venoms are the real troop choices in the Dark Eldar Index. Because without them, the actual troop choices are simply bad.

Now, I don't like Wytches, I've always simply hated how the model looks. So I don't put them in my lists regardless. But here's an example of what I do run.

Spoiler: 2000 points

Show

Battalion Detachment
HQ

Drazhar Master of Blades: 140

Archon with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 68

Elites

4 Incubi with Klaivex with Demiklaives: 80
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 90

5 Incubi with Klaivex with Demiklaives: 98
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 90

5 Mandrakes with Nightfiend: 95

5 Mandrakes with Nightfiend: 95

Troops

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

9 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, and a Blaster: 81
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

Fast Attack

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

Flyer Auxiliary

Razorwing with 2 Dark Lances, and Splinter Cannon: 170

Total: 2000

Everything is in a transport, can already fly, or simply show up wherever they like. The army is extremely mobile.

Another example, that I haven't finished building yet

Spoiler: 2000 points

Show

Outrider Detachment
HQ
Succubus with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 86

Fast Attack

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

5 Hellions with Helliarch with Stunclaw: 92

5 Hellions with Helliarch with Stunclaw: 92

5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters: 118



Battalion Detachment
HQ
Lelith Hesperax: 125

Archon with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 68
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 90

Troops
10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115


Total: 1997

Again, the slowest thing in the army has a move value of 14. I only get out of the transports when it's been shot out from me, or it's time to charge.

Now, neither of these lists are fully optimized. But it hopefully gives you an idea of how Dark Eldar play regardless. IE, very very reliant on their transports. It may be possible to run foot Dark Eldar, but I think you're looking at Homonculus Covens then, and that's beyond my experience, though I did write up a list just to see what it would look like.

[LansXero]

The on foot list? Likely not all that well. Like I said, Dark Eldar love their transports. If it isn't on a transport, it is otherwise really fast. The only real exception to that will be going full Homonculus Coven, which tends to be much tougher in exchange. I'd almost say Raiders and Venoms are the real troop choices in the Dark Eldar Index. Because without them, the actual troop choices are simply bad.

Now, I don't like Wytches, I've always simply hated how the model looks. So I don't put them in my lists regardless. But here's an example of what I do run.

Spoiler: 2000 points

Show

Battalion Detachment
HQ

Drazhar Master of Blades: 140

Archon with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 68

Elites

4 Incubi with Klaivex with Demiklaives: 80
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 90

5 Incubi with Klaivex with Demiklaives: 98
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 90

5 Mandrakes with Nightfiend: 95

5 Mandrakes with Nightfiend: 95

Troops

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

9 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, and a Blaster: 81
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

Fast Attack

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

Flyer Auxiliary

Razorwing with 2 Dark Lances, and Splinter Cannon: 170

Total: 2000

Everything is in a transport, can already fly, or simply show up wherever they like. The army is extremely mobile.

Another example, that I haven't finished building yet

Spoiler: 2000 points

Show

Outrider Detachment
HQ
Succubus with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 86

Fast Attack

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

5 Hellions with Helliarch with Stunclaw: 92

5 Hellions with Helliarch with Stunclaw: 92

5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters: 118



Battalion Detachment
HQ
Lelith Hesperax: 125

Archon with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 68
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 90

Troops
10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115


Total: 1997

Again, the slowest thing in the army has a move value of 14. I only get out of the transports when it's been shot out from me, or it's time to charge.

Now, neither of these lists are fully optimized. But it hopefully gives you an idea of how Dark Eldar play regardless. IE, very very reliant on their transports. It may be possible to run foot Dark Eldar, but I think you're looking at Homonculus Covens then, and that's beyond my experience, though I did write up a list just to see what it would look like.

Thank you very much for taking the time to provide all these lists. Im sure the new guy will apreciate it.

[Voidhawk]

20 wyches, 10 wracks; we've got loads of orks, marines (loyal and plagued), poxwalkers and warmahordes minis to proxy with though.

Due to the hobby / the game being kinda small still in our country, we order from GW every month or so; tomorrow we have a friendly get together to teach the game, try stuff and iron out rules questions; from that, ideally people will figure out what they want / works, so we can order it for them in this month's GW shipment (we do import stuff from the US weekly; GW being in the UK makes that impractical)

So while it would be good to use what he already has as a base, its more important for me that he knows whats good and gets that, because piling up fixes on models that just dont work (and wyches seem way too fragile and slow to work as melee) is spending money the guy doesnt have.

Ironically, by Dark Eldar infantry standards Wyches are actually reasonably tough. They get a 4++/6+++ in melee and can take a drug for T4. I've used them with some success tying down my opponent's good melee units so they can't get to the important things.

In general Dark Eldar are fragile, often counter intuitive, have a steep learning curve and are not really a good beginner army. They exist on a razors edge, where small decisions can be the difference between tabling the opponent and getting tabled yourself.

Our meta, what little there is of it, is composed of:
- Me, running Sisters (although I can step out to let newbies play each other)
- a guy running 60 boys + some psyker Ork HQ and a waagh banner
- an Ultramarine 2x whirlwinds list
- Death Guard poxwalkers+plague marines (know no fear starter) x2
- Primaris (know no fear starter) x2
- Black Templars ft. Land Raider

The Sisters and Orks from those lists are absolute nightmares for Dark Eldar. They have 0 ways of dealing with hordes at the moment (wyches being ironically one of the best available), and Sisters are cheap and T3 which makes Splinter weapons sad.

Right now its a few newcomers, plus a couple 5th edition veterans coming back; there is an older community in the city, but they are mostly casual / bound to home games, so as you say the 'meta' is still developing. Still, Im not too sure how well will melee infantry on foot do against 2x whirlwinds, or a primaris shooting gallery.

There is no such thing as a Dark Eldar "infantry on foot" list, they live and die by their transports. By which I meaning that as soon as they're not in them, they generally die. Here's the complete list of Dark Eldar units that can get in a transport but sometimes don't: 1) Mandrakes, and 2) the HQs because they're not very good and the transports aren't big enough. And I've seen debates about the Mandrakes.

Here's some of the advice from veterans I've picked up in the months since deciding I wanted to play the True Kin:
1) Ynnari lists and Drukhari lists look and play completely differently. Ynnari focus on mostly infantry/bikes (since you can't Soul Burst inside a transport), often take quite a few Harlequins, want to get in-your-face quickly since Soul Burst has a range limitation, and were errata'd so that they must have one of the special characters as warlord. Whereas for an actual Drukhari list everything wants a transport, and they play at range for the first turn or so before mopping up in melee.
2) In either case, Wracks and Wyches are two units you want the least of (other than ones you want zero). You can be fine with one unit capping a 1500pt or 2000pt casual list, but more than that and you won't have the firepower to deal with important things.
3) Bring Ravagers. The basic mistake made by most beginners is not bringing enough Darklight weapons, and Ravagers are the cheapest source around. They serve as a great fall back for dealing with tough things, and are hard to use wrong. Dark Eldar aircraft are also decent at the same job, but are trickier to use.

And here's a short list of opinions I've picked up on which units are good/bad and why:

Spoiler: More guidelines, than actual rules

Show

• HQs - All fragile and mostly ineffectual. Keep them cheap and don't expect much. The Archon can take a Blaster which is good, and a Huskblade which is too expensive; stick with an Agoniser. The Succubus does well ok-ish as an assassin, and for buffing Wyches, but will die doing it so don't make her your warlord. The Haemonculus is ironically better in melee that the Succubus, but is also 20pts more expensive; generally don't bother.
• Special Characters - All are a bit rubbish, being mostly ineffectual and hilariously overcosted for what you get.
• Kabalite Warriors - Your bread and butter. Cheap, so at the end of the game you might actually still have some bodies on the table. 5 Warriors + Blaster in a Venom is your basic troops choice. Two squads of 5 with 2 Blasters in a Raider is your other choice. Ignore the Shredder, it does nothing.
• Wyches - As I've said above, you can get some success using a single unit in a Raider to tie up important things. Having a 4++/6+++ and only 1 wound makes expensive high-AP melee weapons mostly useless, and having no AP themselves doesn't matter if their opponent paid for an Invul. It's a dangerous job though, so don't expect them to live through it, and taking more than 1 unit is asking to get tabled. Hydra Gauntlets are the best of the three cult weapons. Bloodbrides are 50% more expensive for 50% more attacks, but no extra defense; generally you should just stick with the cheaper option (are you seeing a theme on price?).
• Wracks - Trying to do the same job as Wyches, but more expensive with a worse save and no Drugs. The Liquifier is a flamer that's bad against hordes. A Haemonculus can buff them to T5, but that's another 90pts and Toughness doesn't matter as much this edition anyway.
• Raider - Dark Eldar look fragile, but in practice they're all T5 with a 5++ and this is why. Affectionately referred to as paper-boats, you can proxy one with some folded newspaper. Surprisingly useful in Melee, don't be afraid to charge shooty units to lock them down. If they don't Fall Back from your boat, you can disembark backwards then Fall Back the boat forwards over their heads, leaving them trapped in a circle of gunfire and stabbing. (That trick is pretty dangerous though, since getting out of a boat is often a quick route to death if the encircled unit survives.)
• Venom - The Raider's little sister, and hundreds of pages have been expended online debating which is better. What you lose in AT firepower you gain in a -1 to hit (hilarious in a Plasma meta), good Ant-Inf guns, a smaller profile for hiding behind things, and never losing stats till you blow up. In any case, it's generally agreed that choosing one of the two and spamming it is the way to go. Ignore the second Splinter Cannon, it's 15pts for only 2 extra shots over the Twin Rifle.
• Trueborn - A great unit that brings ALL the firepower, but investing in too many can get expensive fast and leave you very low on bodies. A unit of 5 with 4 blasters in a Venom is traditional and works nicely, and I've also seen arguments in favour of 2 Blasters and 2 Splinter Cannons, or 4 Blasters and 2 Cannons in a Raider.
• Incubi - Where wyches are mostly for tying units down, these guys are your actual Melee beatstick. Will happily murder marines all day, though T3 means they do prefer if their target doesn't survive to fight back. Work nicely in a Venom that can hide behind things and get them into position, or as a second unit in a Trueborn Raider.
• Reavers - The darling of last edition, this edition smashed them with the Nerf bat incredibly hard. At 30pts each they're now incredibly expensive by Dark Eldar standards. Nevertheless, a small unit can make a Turn 1 Assault on a shooty unit and pin it down, and Drugs can give them either T5 or Mv18". Ignore the Heat Lance, it's expensive and does nothing. Grav Talons are always better than Caltrops. They also get alot better in a Ynnari list, where they use Soul Burst to Advance+Charge or Fallback+Charge.
• Hellions - Where Reavers got worse, these guys got better. With Str 4 and Dmg2 they do a good job of murdering multi-wound stuff like bikers or Primaris-things, or anything with a save-vs-damage like Disgustingly Resilient. But they're still only as survivable as guardsmen, so be careful how you use them.
• Mandrakes - Gets the award for Most Improved Unit in the codex, perhaps in the game, going from unusable trash to amazing murder machines. With a multishot weapon that deals Mortal Wounds and three Str 4 attacks each in CC, these guys dish the pain. -1 to hit and a 5++/6+++ can be incredibly infuriating for an opponent to deal with, but they are still only T3 so try not to get them focussed. The recommended tactic is to generally hold them in reserve until Turn 2 at least, maybe Turn 3, so the opponent's key units that can hurt them are already dead/tied up and they can re-roll charges. They particularly excel at character hunting.
• Scourge - Can be kitted for tank hunting or infantry murder, and do pretty decently at either. With a 4+ save, they love dropping into cover on an under-defended flank. For tank hunting five with Dark Lances is best even counting the -1 to hit, and gives good range so they can have the pick of cover. For infantry murder a pack of ten with the basic Shardcarbine is fine. If you find yourself looking at the Splinter Cannon or Blaster options you probably want Trueborn in a Venom instead.
• Ravager - Saved the best for last. The gunboat of all gunboats. The cheapest, most survivable, and most manoeuvrable source of Dark Lances and Disintegrators around. Will happily look at the most important part of your opponent's army each turn and turn it to ash. You will never regret bringing one, and will probably never regret bringing three.

The on foot list? Likely not all that well. Like I said, Dark Eldar love their transports. If it isn't on a transport, it is otherwise really fast. The only real exception to that will be going full Homonculus Coven, which tends to be much tougher in exchange. I'd almost say Raiders and Venoms are the real troop choices in the Dark Eldar Index. Because without them, the actual troop choices are simply bad.

Quoted for truth.

4 Incubi with Klaivex with Demiklaives: 80
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 90

I see what you're trying to do here (take an understrength unit to bodyguard Drazhar), but it unfortunately doesn't work how you want it to anymore. Per the main rulebook Errata, in Matched Play you can only take an understrength unit in an Axillary Support Detachment, the one that gives -1CP. Whether you think that's worth it or not is up to you.

Spoiler: 2000 points

Show

Outrider Detachment
HQ
Succubus with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 86

Fast Attack

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, 2 Blasters and 2 Grav-Talons: 224

5 Hellions with Helliarch with Stunclaw: 92

5 Hellions with Helliarch with Stunclaw: 92

5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters: 118


Battalion Detachment
HQ
Lelith Hesperax: 125

Archon with Blast Pistol and Agonizer: 68
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 90

Troops
10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 103
Raider with Dark Lance: 115

Total: 1997

I would be very interested to learn how this turns out. I've picked up 15 Reavers myself, mostly by accident or with other things, along with ten Hellions. I tend to group them up a bit more, to make best use of the +1 Toughness drug and keep the special weapons/talons alive. Have you proxied any games yet? I found them reasonably tough, but just not killy enough for the 200pt price tag.

Here's a 1500pt list I've been toying with that illustrates some of the Dark Eldar strengths:

Spoiler: -1 to Hit

Show

Vanguard Detachment (+1CP)
HQ
Archon, Blaster, Agoniser - 73
Elites
5 Incubi - 90pts
5 Incubi - 90pts
5 Trueborn, 4 Blasters, Agoniser, Blast Pistol - 129
5 Trueborn, 4 Blasters, Agoniser - 119
5 Mandrakes - 95
Transports
5x Venom, Splinter Cannon, Twin Rifle - 5x80 = 400

Airwing Detachment (+1CP)
Razorwing Jetfighter, 2 Dark Lances, Twin Rifles, Missiles - 155
Razorwing Jetfighter, 2 Dark Lances, Twin Rifles, Missiles - 155
Voidraven Bomber, 2 Dark Scythes, Missiles - 194

Total Points: 1500

Literally everything you place on the table has a -1 to hit and a 5++, and only the Mandrakes have a movement of less than 16".

[Requizen]

So with my list that I've been using (AM Brigade made up of Scions with Vehicles), do you think it's better to split it up into two Detachments, losing CP but gaining the MT Regiment rules for them and having a separate one for the Vehicles, or is it better to just keep the Brigade and know that the MT will not benefit from any of the bonuses?

[Lost Demiurge]

I keep looking at Dark Eldar and getting tempted, but... they're a finesse army. With their own flavor of finesse, that would take a lot of time to develop.

So no, not right now. Not for a while. Maybe this edition, maybe the next.

Pity, though, I DO love the aesthetic...

[Turalisj]

The 1v1 for 1k points has now become a 2v1 with 2k points per team. Thought I'd have a bit fun with the list:

Spoiler

Show

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [52 PL, 920pts] ++

+ Uncategorised +

Forge World: Graia

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Dominus [7 PL, 135pts]: Macrostubber, Omnissian Axe, The Cerebral Techno-Mitre, Volkite Blaster
. Warlord: Emotionless Clarity

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 52pts]: Omnissian Axe, Servo-arm

+ Troops +

Skitarii Vanguards [8 PL, 111pts]: Omnispex
. 8x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard (Plasma caliver): Plasma caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards [8 PL, 111pts]: Omnispex
. 8x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard (Plasma caliver): Plasma caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards [8 PL, 111pts]: Omnispex
. 8x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard (Plasma caliver): Plasma caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

+ Elites +

Sicarian Infiltrators [6 PL, 130pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad
. Sicarian Infiltrator
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad
. Sicarian Infiltrator
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad
. Sicarian Infiltrator
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad
. Sicarian Infiltrator
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad

+ Heavy Support +

Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 140pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser

Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 130pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Icarus Array

++ Battalion Detachment (Imperium - Grey Knights) [10 PL, 190pts] ++

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 190pts]: Purge Soul, Sanctuary, Vortex of Doom

++ Battalion Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [14 PL, 286pts] ++

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [14 PL, 286pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Custodes Vexilla and Power Knife
. Shield-Captain: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [29 PL, 500pts] ++

+ Uncategorised +

Forge World: Mars

+ HQ +

Belisarius Cawl [13 PL, 250pts]

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 40pts]: 4x Skitarii Ranger
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 40pts]: 4x Skitarii Ranger
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle

+ Elites +

Fulgurite Electro-Priests [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Fulgurite Electro-Priest

++ Battalion Detachment (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [5 PL, 90pts] ++

+ Elites +

Vindicare Assassin [5 PL, 90pts]

++ Total: [110 PL, 1986pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

[LeSwordfish]

No offense to you personally Turalisj but... man, battlescribe army lists are basically unreadable to me. I'm having real trouble picking out the details of what's in what batallion or even what squad.

[JNAProductions]

I might go Spear on the Captain of your Custodes. Gives him some more oomph, and you've got enough durability from the other shields.

[Forum Explorer]

3) Bring Ravagers. The basic mistake made by most beginners is not bringing enough Darklight weapons, and Ravagers are the cheapest source around. They serve as a great fall back for dealing with tough things, and are hard to use wrong. Dark Eldar aircraft are also decent at the same job, but are trickier to use.



I see what you're trying to do here (take an understrength unit to bodyguard Drazhar), but it unfortunately doesn't work how you want it to anymore. Per the main rulebook Errata, in Matched Play you can only take an understrength unit in an Axillary Support Detachment, the one that gives -1CP. Whether you think that's worth it or not is up to you.

I would be very interested to learn how this turns out. I've picked up 15 Reavers myself, mostly by accident or with other things, along with ten Hellions. I tend to group them up a bit more, to make best use of the +1 Toughness drug and keep the special weapons/talons alive. Have you proxied any games yet? I found them reasonably tough, but just not killy enough for the 200pt price tag.

I never liked Ravagers, but I admit my bias was from way back when they almost immediately died turn 1. To every army. Even Tyranids. These days, I much prefer the flyers for the same job.

Oh, I know, and I do pay the penalty for it. I'm just lazy at actually rewriting my list so it's properly formatted. If it's worth it...well I'm going with yes. Drazahar is very fun in close combat, will clean up most everything, and with a 2+/5++/6+++ is easily the most durable thing in the book. I've got to say though, the Incubi really do not need the bonus. I've been considering putting in a Raider instead, but honestly, I don't think I actually have a 10th Incubi model.

My meta does not tolerate proxies, unless the proxy is a custom model of some sort. (It's perfectly fine to convert a Carnifex into a Tervigon, but it's not fine for me to slap down my Swooping Hawks and Eldar Jetbikes and call them Scourges and Reavers). Luckily I only need the Gangs of Commoragh box and a box of Scourges and I'm good to go.

I'm really interested to see how it does as well. Reavers certainly got nerfed, and only made it into my first list because I didn't have enough Raiders to replace them, and I thought they'd perform better then a Talos. But since then they've routinely outperformed my expectations in how many shots, how much damage, and just overall how good they are.

I keep looking at Dark Eldar and getting tempted, but... they're a finesse army. With their own flavor of finesse, that would take a lot of time to develop.

So no, not right now. Not for a while. Maybe this edition, maybe the next.

Pity, though, I DO love the aesthetic...

Wait until their codex comes out? Though I've got to say, they are certainly one of the most fun armies I've played. But I love the high finesse armies. I also lost 100% of my first 100 games. Not as Dark Eldar, but in general.