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2019-09-12, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Can't wait for it
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2019-09-12, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
I think the inspiration would be more along the lines of dueling sword such as a rapier. Since no armor is effective, you're essentially trying to stick your opponent with the pointy end and/or slash the opponent with the sharpened edge. Longswords (and kendo blades/katana) both suffer from the same problem, which is that you are using two hands to exert additional force. This is a necessity when you're trying to force your way through armor and flesh, but is totally irrelevant to a light saber which just burns its way through like a hot knife through butter. Light sabers also have the advantage of being "sharp" on all sides including the point. As such, extending your reach via a one-handed dueling stance seems the best way to fight.
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2019-09-12, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-09-12, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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2019-09-12, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-09-12, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
In TPM, the extra-thick blast doors of the Trade Federation ship seem to slow down Qui-gon's cutting, though not enough to stop him entirely. It does slow him enough to allow the destroyer droids to intervene though. Is cortosis something alloyable, where the relative cortosis content reduces lightsaber penetration proportionate to its cortosis %?
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2019-09-12, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-09-12, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Not really, since the opposing saber can be used to parry and if not enough strength (I'm trying to avoid using "force" to avoid possible confusion) is being applied that could spell disaster.
Old canon was all over the place on cortosis, though; in the Thrawn duology, it was so structurally weak that it would flake off in your hands, while Bane got physically huge due to mining it for starship hulls and other armors because of its huge structural strength.Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-12 at 02:47 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-09-12, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-09-12, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
So Vader's armor must have had more cortosis than the blast doors, if it deflected saber strikes instead of just resisting them.
Why would the Federation have cortosis-infused blast doors anyways? It wasn't like they originally built their fleet for the purpose of fighting the Jedi.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2019-09-12, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-09-12, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
LARP/foam boffer combat sports might be the best analogue to this I can think of, actually. All edges and the point of the 'weapon' are equally effective striking edges, any reasonably noticeable contact makes for a lethal or disabling wound (including things that would be grazes or damaging but not deadly flesh injuries with live steel) and the resultant fighting style has a strong emphasis on dexterity and spacing control (not that this isn't part of basically all combat practices, but there's fairly few moves that rely on testing strength on strength and larger, slower weapons are often at a disadvantage to a more readily maneuverable one that only needs to block or redirect the bigger weapon for a very brief contact before making a killing blow.)
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2019-09-12, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-09-12, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2019-09-12, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-09-12, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
If there's one guy in the galaxy that has lightsabre resistant armour, it's probably DV. Not that it means he can't lose a hand, so it's not impregnable. Could be something like sloped armour so the sabre takes the path of least resistance.
Lightsabre styles is going to vary by circumstance, depending on what you're doing.
With a real sword, no human can cut through metal armour with a sword no matter how hard they swing it, fighting against armoured opponents is about finding the gaps.
Seems like sufficiently thick material can still impede lightsabre progress, though, even if not specifically designed for it.
Really, though 'no armour is effective' is good enough even if it's not strictly speaking technically true in every single instance of all the vast expanse of two massive star wars canons.
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2019-09-12, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-12 at 04:54 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-09-12, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
In the Legends canon though, quite a few forms of armor were effective against lightsabers, not just cortosis weaves. This included special Mandalorian Iron armor, armor made using the super-strong metal phirk, armor produced using sith alchemy (such as Darth Bane orbalisk armor), and in the KOTOR era even just conventional armors suitably designed to protect against lightsabers.
It was long possible to build armor that protected against lightsabers, and Star Wars melee weapons generally, it's just that in many eras there was little reason to do so. Producing armor with a high degree of melee weapon protection, and anti-lightsaber elements is only useful if you expect to fight an opponent wielding such weapons. If that's not going to happen you're better off optimizing against ranged weapons. In the movie eras, with very few Jedi and few members of other Force traditions active in the galaxy (and yes, 10,000 Jedi Knights is 'very few' at the scale of a Star Wars galaxy that has tens of millions of inhabited planets) it made little sense to incorporate such design elements and only rare individuals - such as Jango Fett - took that step.
Clone and Stormtrooper armor was optimized against the weapons they expected to encounter: blasters and explosives. It offered some measure of kinetic protection, in ROTJ Ewok stone weapons are shown to have little ability to penetrate trooper armor, but that was not it's primary purpose. In the KOTOR era Jedi and other Force users were orders of magnitude more common - in SWTOR Zakuul alone might have had more than 10000 knights - and design schemes, especially for elite units, incorporated anti-melee elements more prominently. This also makes sense given that the blasters of the time were supposedly proportionally much weaker.
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2019-09-12, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
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2019-09-12, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Eh. If you’re relying on arm strength to effectively parry, you’re bad at parrying. Footwork and positioning is more important. Which is part of why, in unarmored combat, rapiers overtook longswords. That you get more force with a two-handed blow doesn’t matter much when they can just redirect the energy away.
Mind you, steel swords slide, which aids that redirection. Lightsabers seem to slide or stick together based on pure randomness. I honestly don’t know how much that would change things. But without knowing, I’d definitely go for a one-handed method. Reach is king. Doubly so when all the weapon is deadly to the touch. And all else being equal having one hand on the blade allows for longer reach.
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2019-09-12, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Rapiers overtook longswords in unarmed combat because they were smaller and they looked cooler. Theyre the result of an age where one handed swords are a decorative gentleman's weapon rather than one designed to most efficiently kill your enemy. Which isn't to say you couldn't fight a longsword with a rapier, but they have no intrinsic advantage over them either. If you wanted a fighting man's sword, you picked up a claymore or zweihander or similarly large weapon.
A proper two handed longsword that wasn't a full on zweihander would still probably beat a rapier due to a reach advantage.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-09-12, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
With almost no knowledge of swords but some knowledge of physics, if a two-handed hard-swung heavy sword is coming at you in an arc and you deflect with a one-handed rapier, it really seems like you're about to have a very bad day. Not to mention that, yes, the lightsabers clash and stick fairly often,and all parts are deadly, so it seems like being able to keep the combined blades away from you would be fairly useful.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2019-09-12, 09:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Originally Posted by Keltest
Originally Posted by Path of Destruction
Originally Posted by Vision of the Future
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2019-09-12, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
You're describing a smallsword. Smallswords overtook the rapier because they were smaller and less cumbersome.
A longsword's average blade length was around 33 to 43 inches (they varied wildly over time). A rapier's average blade length is 35 to 41 inches. The major difference in length comes from the grip. Longswords had a much longer grip than a rapier because, you know, it requires two hands. But that's actually a hindrance in reach advantage. If both hands are on the blade you can't thrust as far. Because actions like this:
Are impossible with both hands on the blade. Your shoulders have to square up a bit more, you can't extend as far.
Now, with armor. I'd go with with longsword, no contest. But duels in clothes is literally what the rapier was designed for.
The thing is, a longsword is about 2.5 to 4 lbs. A rapier is about 1.5 to 3 lbs. So the mass of the attack isn't too much different. While two-handed weapons most certainly can create more force, the whole art of parrying is not to match your strength against the opponent's strength. All that would prove is who's stronger and the best swordsman would just be who can bench the most.
It's instead more about positioning your blade so that you either have the "weak" of their blade meet the "strong" of your blade, so your parry is in a better position regardless of your personal strength. Angling your blade so that the force of their weapon is directed away from your body (this usually requires the blade to slide off your weapon, which is why it might not work for lightsabers). Or stopping their attack before it can get momentum in the first place, which is easier to do when the weapon is already in a forward position as a rapier would be held.
Now all that said. Get someone with a big bidenhander in full armor. They can absolutely lift their weapon high and send it crushing down and any real attempt to stop the blow will plow right through. Unfortunately, doing that leaves you really open to attack. I actually saw this done in an armored duel a few months back, and the bidenhander bent the longsword that tried to block it.
But the longswordsmen already had time to strike the bidenhander twice across the chest before he even took up the guard. Not that those strikes would matter, because armor.
But that's why I said all else being equal. These are laser swords that all seem roughly the same length and don't seem to have any discernible mass.Last edited by Dienekes; 2019-09-12 at 10:35 PM.
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2019-09-12, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-09-13, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Right. The point is that in the former case the cortosis is in the form of small veins (coming in smaller chunks and potentially also being reinforced by the surrounding rock) and in the latter case there are big slabs of just cortosis, and small quantities of hard-but-brittle materials are proportionally more resilient than larger quantities.
Compare steel and tungsten, for instance. Say you have a 1-inch cube of steel, a 1-inch cube of tungsten, a paper-sized sheet of steel about 0.5 cm thick, and a paper-sized sheet of tungsten about 0.5 cm thick, and you fire a handgun at all four. With the steel, the small block will get a dent in it and the larger sheet will get a hole poked in it; with the tungsten, the small block will barely even take superficial damage, but the larger sheet of tungsten won't just have a hole in it but will actually shatter it into multiple pieces. So it makes sense that small bits of cortosis ore could resist a fair bit of force from jackhammering while a huge chunk of it can be chipped apart relatively easily with hammers or grenades or the like.
(Actually, now that I think about it, given that tungsten has the highest melting point of pure metals and so can absorb a ton of heat, and that tungsten fibers can be used to reinforce steel and other metals, one could make the argument that cortosis is kind of "sci-fi tungsten" in the same way that mithril is kind of "fantasy titanium." Probably a couple good plot hooks in there somewhere.)
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2019-09-13, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Let me rephrase. That excerpt from the first Bane book makes it sound like cortosis was what made mining difficult; the properties that made it valuable also made it difficult to mine. Not that the surrounding rock made it difficult to mine, the properties of cortosis itself made mining cortosis difficult, and the cortosis, not the surrounding rock, broke the instruments constantly.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-09-13, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...
Lightsabers have to be capable of more than just 'duels in clothes' though. A Jedi needs to not only utilize their lightsaber against other lightsaber-wielding opponents, but also against droids, large and dangerous animals, aliens with unusual physiologies, armored vehicles, and even inanimate objects. They also need to be able to deflect ranged attacks and to face off with multiple opponents at once.
In fact, given the relative abundance of Force users compared to the overall population of the galaxy a melee battle with another force user may be among the least-likely events a Jedi would face in combat, and even in that case there's no guarantee that they'll be wielding a lightsaber (Nightsisters of Dathomir fight with blade and bow, the Knights of Zakuul utilize spear and shield, etc.). As a result, Jedi tended to develop combat skills for a wide range of situations (which, in the KOTOR era included armored opponents).
It's worth noting that Lightsaber Form II/Makashi, which was the form designed for lightsaber vs. lightsaber combat, does share much more commonality with fencing style techniques than other forms. The most prominent canon practitioner of this method was Count Dooku (and also his nominal students Grievous and Asajj Ventress), and in legends at least his choice is specifically called out as an anachronism because hardly anyone in the entire order had fought a lightsaber wielding opponent for a thousand years at that point.
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2019-09-13, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-09-13, 03:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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