What would the OotS look like in 5e?

[Ortho]

I've seen a fair few threads dealing with the Order of the Stick in 4e but I don't think I've ever seen one that converts them to 5e.
So let's get this ball rolling:


Roy's a Battlemaster Fighter, no doubt. I'd say he'd be a regular Human due to his all-around decent stats, and would take the Great Weapon Master feat at some point.

Haley's a regular Human, and a Thief Rogue. In particular, the Second Story Work and Use Magical Device class features fit really well with what we've seen her do.

Elan's a pure Bard, due to prestige classes not existing in 5e. He could really belong to any of the colleges, but I'd say College of Lore is the most thematic for him. Probably a variant Human with the Inspiring Leader feat, which he hasn't yet figured out how to use.

Belkar's a Halfling (of the Stout subrace, if only for more height jokes) and a Beastmaster Ranger. He also has the Dual Wielder feat. Note that this is not an optimal build by any measure.

Durkon's got the easiest conversion: Life Cleric without a doubt. As for his race: Mountain Dwarf, because he lives in the mountains.

Vaarsuvius's a High Elf, of course. That extra cantrip and Intelligence bonus nicely compliments his earlier "Ultimate Arcane Power" mindset. Also a School of Evocation Wizard through and through.


And that about sums up my take on the 5e Order of the Stick. How would you convert them to 5e?

[KorvinStarmast]

Roy's a Battlemaster Fighter, no doubt. I'd say he'd be a regular Human due to his all-around decent stats, and would take the Great Weapon Master feat at some point.
Haley's a regular Human, and a Thief Rogue. In particular, the Second Story Work and Use Magical Device class features fit really well with what we've seen her do.

Elan's a pure Bard, due to prestige classes not existing in 5e. He could really belong to any of the colleges, but I'd say College of Lore is the most thematic for him. Probably a variant Human with the Inspiring Leader feat, which he hasn't yet figured out how to use.

Belkar's a Halfling (of the Stout subrace, if only for more height jokes) and a Beastmaster Ranger. He also has the Dual Wielder feat. Note that this is not an optimal build by any measure.

Durkon's got the easiest conversion: Life Cleric without a doubt. As for his race: Mountain Dwarf, because he lives in the mountains.

Vaarsuvius's a High Elf, of course. That extra cantrip and Intelligence bonus nicely compliments his earlier "Ultimate Arcane Power" mindset. Also a School of Evocation Wizard through and through.

The trick to the 5e conversion is IMO how to bar/ban V's forbidden schools of magic. I think you covered it pretty well. Elan as Lore Bard I agree with, but I disagree with Inspiring Leader, and think that if any feat were his it would be Lucky. That would account for the narrative power working for him.

[Vulsutyr]

What's wrong with Durkon being Tempest? He couldn't use any lightning or thunder spells w/o it, and he would still be able to use all the healing spells.

The trick to the 5e conversion is IMO how to bar/ban V's forbidden schools of magic. I think you covered it pretty well. Elan as Lore Bard I agree with, but I disagree with Inspiring Leader, and think that if any feat were his it would be Lucky. That would account for the narrative power working for him.

Yes, I like the Lucky feat idea. Schools of Magic is a tough one, I thought about that reading the first post. I can't think of any mechanism for restricting spells know by wizards. It would have to be homebrew IMO. I think WOTC intentionally didn't bring that back.

[Ortho]

The trick to the 5e conversion is IMO how to bar/ban V's forbidden schools of magic. I think you covered it pretty well. Elan as Lore Bard I agree with, but I disagree with Inspiring Leader, and think that if any feat were his it would be Lucky. That would account for the narrative power working for him.

The reason I went with Inspiring Leader is because of Elan's habit of making speeches. I thought it would be funny for his abysmal speeches to actually have a mechanical benefit.

What's wrong with Durkon being Tempest? He couldn't use any lightning or thunder spells w/o it, and he would still be able to use all the healing spells.

That...makes a lot more sense actually. I like this better.

Schools of Magic is a tough one, I thought about that reading the first post. I can't think of any mechanism for restricting spells know by wizards.

To my knowledge 5e doesn't actually provide any mechanisms for restricting spells. Though having never played 3.5e myself, I don't know how big of a deal barred schools are.

[Reboot]

To my knowledge 5e doesn't actually provide any mechanisms for restricting spells. Though having never played 3.5e myself, I don't know how big of a deal barred schools are.

Well, the main reason Rich had V ban Conjuration is so they couldn't Teleport the Order around (I don't think the apparent bar on Necromancy has ever been hugely plot-relevant, outside of it being the notional reason for Haerta being a necromancer - and Familicide could have been a thing without barred schools).

So, that's the main objective - figure out how or why 5e V can't teleport.

[Jannoire]

What about other people from the Stick verse? I wanna play a paladin inspired by O-Chul sometime soon.

Currently I'm going for Human Paladin, great weapon master, with soldier background.
I'm unclear on the oath, though...
Neither of the ones in the PHB seem to fit, while Oathbreaker is clearly wrong. I would say Oath of Battle, but that's third party content...

[Kish]

O-Chul is very much about being dedicated to Good, and secondarily Law. In 3.xed, that makes him the ideal paladin. If it makes him not fit any of the oaths in 5ed, my advice would be to make that character a fighter instead, so that they can be completely dedicated to Good and secondarily Law without running into any Oath-caused funkiness.

After all, as How the Paladin Got his Scar illustrates,

Spoiler

Show

O-Chul has been the paladin much longer than he's actually had levels in the paladin class

.

[hamishspence]

Oath of Devotion sounds pretty O-Chul to me:

Tenets of Devotion

Honesty. Don't lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.

Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.

Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.

Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.

Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.

[bc56]

I disagree on Elan and Belkar. Elan should be a swords bard, since it aligns better with Dashing Swordsman. Belkar is multiclass Ranger/Barbarian, so although beastmaster makes sense for him, he should also have levels in Barbarian, probably Berserker.

As for V and teleport, the obvious answer for "why doesn't V know Teleport?" is "They choose not to learn it/Rich chooses for them not to learn it." There's nothing forcing a wizard to take Teleport, and the party members don't have optimal builds in the existing comic anyway. It is, in my mind, a non-issue.

For O-Chul, Oath of Devotion is probably the closest from a mechanical and lore standpoint, since it's all about upholding the will of the gods and lawful and good behavior.

[D.One]

So, that's the main objective - figure out how or why 5e V can't teleport.

I don't know a way of barring V from having teleport if they were all born in 5th edition... however, we've seem that edition updates occur within the history, so we can have V start his/her career as an evoker, barred from Conjuration, somewhen prior to 3.x. Then, years later, the world rewrites itself into 5th Ed., but by then V never learned Teleport, and since that V haven't had the opportunity to get a Teleport scroll or spellbook with teleport to learn from it.

[Connington]

Oath of Devotion sounds pretty O-Chul to me:

Devotion is the most obvious pick, but How The Paladin Got His Scar suggests that both his backstory and his methods fit the Oath of Redemption better. The lengths to which O-Chul goes to avoid unnecessary combat throughout the story are 100% Oath of Redemption

[KorvinStarmast]

Devotion is the most obvious pick, but How The Paladin Got His Scar suggests that both his backstory and his methods fit the Oath of Redemption better. The lengths to which O-Chul goes to avoid unnecessary combat throughout the story are 100% Oath of Redemption

I guess you missed the beginning of HTPGHS. That was a standard battle with killing and such. First scene. (Granted, that's while he's still a Fighter/Warrior ... indeed most of the book is him as a Fighter / Warrior, not a paladin)

Oath of Devotion is a pretty solid fit.

[xroads]

As for V and teleport, the obvious answer for "why doesn't V know Teleport?" is "They choose not to learn it/Rich chooses for them not to learn it." There's nothing forcing a wizard to take Teleport, and the party members don't have optimal builds in the existing comic anyway. It is, in my mind, a non-issue.

This makes sense. Could be an RP thing. Perhaps V, for all his intelligence, just can't wrap his head around teleportation magic.

Spoiler: Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales

Show

But if memory serves, the 4e version of V didn't have any barred schools. So perhaps it's a moot point altogether.

[Lacuna Caster]

As for V and teleport, the obvious answer for "why doesn't V know Teleport?" is "They choose not to learn it/Rich chooses for them not to learn it." There's nothing forcing a wizard to take Teleport, and the party members don't have optimal builds in the existing comic anyway. It is, in my mind, a non-issue.

Or, you could just let V learn Teleport.

[xroads]

I think Elan would be a valor bard. A valor bard allows him to be handy with a sword and the "valor" concept seems a good fit for Elan.

As for their backgrounds...

• Belkar - Criminal?*
• Durkon - Acolyte
• Elan - Entertainer
• Haley - Criminal
• Roy - Sage?**
• Vaarsuvius - Sage

* I haven't read Belkar's short story yet, so I'm just taking a guess. Seemed like a safe bet though, all things considered.

** I'm not sure about Roy. Much of his background includes a formal education. But Sage doesn't seem like a good fit. Cloistered Scholar might be a better fit, but I don't have that book on hand.

Edit: After thinking about it, isn't there a background that allows the player to inherit a powerful heirloom? That might be a better fit for Roy.

[Zejety]

After thinking about it, isn't there a background that allows the player to inherit a powerful heirloom? That might be a better fit for Roy.

Yup, it's literally called Inheritor (found in SCAG).
It suggests an inheritance which's secrets you slowly unlock ove rthe course of your career. Fits to a T!

[Morgana]

I feel like Elan would multiclass into swashbuckler

[Connington]

I guess you missed the beginning of HTPGHS. That was a standard battle with killing and such. First scene. (Granted, that's while he's still a Fighter/Warrior ... indeed most of the book is him as a Fighter / Warrior, not a paladin)

Oath of Devotion is a pretty solid fit.

I did indeed read the whole of the story, and after reading it again, the precise scene that you reference actually reinforces my point. But thank you for giving me an excuse to re-read a story about a great Order of Redemption role model!

The Oath of Redemption isn't an Oath of Nonviolence, it's an Oath of Violence as a Last Resort.

Spoiler: HtPGHS Spoilers

Show

In the very first scene, pre-Paladin O-Chul is a military captain whose company has been tasked to defense a bridge, and commands a defensive action against raiding hobgoblins. Even if O-Chul was a paladin at this point, he'd be fulfilling the tenets of his oath. He's defending civilians from a clear aggressor. Would it be better for a Redeemer to undertake a dangerous mission to discover why the hobgoblins are attacking, and single-handedly broker a fair and lasting peace? Sure, but that's basically impossible for a lowly captain, so O-Chul... does exactly that. Man, this guy is an awesome Redemption Paladin.

Note that in the battle at the bridge, O-Chul breaks off the engagement to tend to his wounded soldiers as soon as he forces the hobgoblins to retreat - a sound plan both tactically and ethically. When a wounded hobgoblin hits him with an arrow, he takes the attacker's bow away and alternates scolding him for foolishness, pleading for the killing to stop, and trying to understand why the hobgoblins attacked in the first place. O-Chul doesn't even draw his sword until the hobgoblin makes another attempt to kill him. At which point it's clear-cut self defense because the enemy has literally said that he'll stop at nothing to kill Azurites and O-Chul specifically. Then O-Chul goes to find Zhou Bo, and specifically refrains from sentencing her to whipping and imprisonment for desertion because he believes that she can be redeemed.

For the rest of the story, where O-Chul is operating more like the leader of an independent adventuring party than a junior military officer, so let's recap what happens:

• When faced with an Ettin trying to clobber Zhou Bo, O-Chul initially counter-attacks. But when the Right Head claims not to be aggressive, he lets the Left Head get in two free attacks while he attempts to reason with the left - past the point where he's clearly exasperated - until a party-member goes Leroy Jenkins and the Right Head reveals itself to be just as murderous.
• Continuously tries to use Persuasion on the ambushing Hobgoblin party even as they attempt to kill all of the humans - and still manages to capture 2/6ths of them (note that O-Chul only killed the leader, the other three died because Kapoor is quite proudly NOT a candidate for the Oath of Redemption). Note that O-Chul doesn't even threaten the two prisoners into cooperating - they intimidate themselves.
• When Pangtok and Tingtox try to drown the party and escape, O-Chul risks his life to save Pangtok from the current and non-lethally subdues Tingtox. Hinjo explicitly points out that O-Chul doesn't tactically need the two hobgoblins to be alive, but he saved them because he values everyone's life. After working out his anger over Kapoor's apparent death, he APOLOGIZES for tying the two hobgoblins up, gives them permission to leave, and convinces them that he just wants to stop the fighting.
• Hinjo pays off the first patrol of guards and then O-Chul disarms the leader of the second and manages to negotiate an audience with the Supreme Leader. He leaving his sword behind as a show of good faith. No lethal damage inflicted.
• Forced to flee the stronghold, O-Chul chides Kapoor for killing a few hobgoblin mooks on their way out, even after hostilities have clearly broken out. She actually listens, and knocks out the next guard instead of killing him.
• Encounter with the Sapphire Guard. Quote: "I do not give a damn about the ethical ramifications of revenge! I just want to save lives!"
• And sure enough, the distracted Paladins don't actually kill any more hobgoblins on screen during this exchange (until the end at least), although the skirmish continues. O-Chul uses his HP pool as a resource to buy time for Kapoor to cleverly disrupt the fighting.
• In a moment of crisis, O-Chul draws on his own redemption story to illustrate why even the life of an "evil" person is worth saving, and concludes that if there is no way to stop the fighting, he'll defend the hobgoblins against the paladins. He even considers whether he's morally obligated to fight and die against a celestial bound to cause that doesn't seem sufficiently Good, which is a great Huck Finn moment.
• O-Chul finally succeeds while literally refusing to draw his sword in a duel against a more skilled warrior, by convincing two opposing sides to cease fighting.
• While it isn't clear how many hobgoblins he kills in the battle for the bridge, by my count O-Chul kills three people onscreen (a hobgoblin soldier, the ettin, and a hobgoblin warchief), on screen. The last being on page 17 of 95.

Honestly, O-Chul demonstrates a commitment to nonviolent solutions throughout his origin story that go WAY beyond what I'd expect from a Redemption Paladin player at the table. As a secondary character he doesn't get as many chances to demonstrate these qualities in the main story, but he's still a critical figure in the MitD's apparent redemption arc. The Oath of Devotion isn't a bad fir for him in the way that the Oath of Vengeance or the Ancients would be, but all of his actions in his own story are so clearly that of a Redeemer.

[Wizard_Lizard]

When Durkon turns into a vampire he would change to a trickery domain.
Miko is an oathbreaker paladin
V might take at least one levl of warock when he makes a pact with the demon people
Thog is probably barbarian fighter multiclass

[Quartz]

The trick to the 5e conversion is IMO how to bar/ban V's forbidden schools of magic.

Just hand-wave it. He just doesn't know the spells; the why is irrelevant.

Elan as Lore Bard I agree with

Valor bard fits better with Dashing Swordsman. You could represent the Dashing Swordsman Prestige Class as a feat that allows you to add your Cha bonus to your attack with finesse weapons a number of times per long rest equal to your Proficiency Bonus.

but I disagree with Inspiring Leader, and think that if any feat were his it would be Lucky. That would account for the narrative power working for him.

Why can't he have both?

I agree with Roy being a Battlemaster with GWM. Could he have the Charger Feat?

Haley is a plain Thief rogue, though an early comic indicates she may also have the Assassinate ability.

I'd put Belkar as a Hunter Ranger, not Beastmaster, and per the battle outside Azure City, he has Whirlwind attack. Mr Scruffy isn't an Animal Companion in the PHB sense.

BTW I predict that Belkar isn't going to die; rather, Mr Scruffy is, on Belkar's birthday, which is why Belkar will never celebrate his birthday again.

[Jannoire]

BTW I predict that Belkar isn't going to die; rather, Mr Scruffy is, on Belkar's birthday, which is why Belkar will never celebrate his birthday again.

And in mourning, he'll hold his breath and move to another plane of existence?

[Peelee]

I did indeed read the whole of the story, and after reading it again, the precise scene that you reference actually reinforces my point. But thank you for giving me an excuse to re-read a story about a great Order of Redemption role model!

The Oath of Redemption isn't an Oath of Nonviolence, it's an Oath of Violence as a Last Resort.

Spoiler: HtPGHS Spoilers

Show

In the very first scene, pre-Paladin O-Chul is a military captain whose company has been tasked to defense a bridge, and commands a defensive action against raiding hobgoblins. Even if O-Chul was a paladin at this point, he'd be fulfilling the tenets of his oath. He's defending civilians from a clear aggressor. Would it be better for a Redeemer to undertake a dangerous mission to discover why the hobgoblins are attacking, and single-handedly broker a fair and lasting peace? Sure, but that's basically impossible for a lowly captain, so O-Chul... does exactly that. Man, this guy is an awesome Redemption Paladin.

Note that in the battle at the bridge, O-Chul breaks off the engagement to tend to his wounded soldiers as soon as he forces the hobgoblins to retreat - a sound plan both tactically and ethically. When a wounded hobgoblin hits him with an arrow, he takes the attacker's bow away and alternates scolding him for foolishness, pleading for the killing to stop, and trying to understand why the hobgoblins attacked in the first place. O-Chul doesn't even draw his sword until the hobgoblin makes another attempt to kill him. At which point it's clear-cut self defense because the enemy has literally said that he'll stop at nothing to kill Azurites and O-Chul specifically. Then O-Chul goes to find Zhou Bo, and specifically refrains from sentencing her to whipping and imprisonment for desertion because he believes that she can be redeemed.

For the rest of the story, where O-Chul is operating more like the leader of an independent adventuring party than a junior military officer, so let's recap what happens:

• When faced with an Ettin trying to clobber Zhou Bo, O-Chul initially counter-attacks. But when the Right Head claims not to be aggressive, he lets the Left Head get in two free attacks while he attempts to reason with the left - past the point where he's clearly exasperated - until a party-member goes Leroy Jenkins and the Right Head reveals itself to be just as murderous.
• Continuously tries to use Persuasion on the ambushing Hobgoblin party even as they attempt to kill all of the humans - and still manages to capture 2/6ths of them (note that O-Chul only killed the leader, the other three died because Kapoor is quite proudly NOT a candidate for the Oath of Redemption). Note that O-Chul doesn't even threaten the two prisoners into cooperating - they intimidate themselves.
• When Pangtok and Tingtox try to drown the party and escape, O-Chul risks his life to save Pangtok from the current and non-lethally subdues Tingtox. Hinjo explicitly points out that O-Chul doesn't tactically need the two hobgoblins to be alive, but he saved them because he values everyone's life. After working out his anger over Kapoor's apparent death, he APOLOGIZES for tying the two hobgoblins up, gives them permission to leave, and convinces them that he just wants to stop the fighting.
• Hinjo pays off the first patrol of guards and then O-Chul disarms the leader of the second and manages to negotiate an audience with the Supreme Leader. He leaving his sword behind as a show of good faith. No lethal damage inflicted.
• Forced to flee the stronghold, O-Chul chides Kapoor for killing a few hobgoblin mooks on their way out, even after hostilities have clearly broken out. She actually listens, and knocks out the next guard instead of killing him.
• Encounter with the Sapphire Guard. Quote: "I do not give a damn about the ethical ramifications of revenge! I just want to save lives!"
• And sure enough, the distracted Paladins don't actually kill any more hobgoblins on screen during this exchange (until the end at least), although the skirmish continues. O-Chul uses his HP pool as a resource to buy time for Kapoor to cleverly disrupt the fighting.
• In a moment of crisis, O-Chul draws on his own redemption story to illustrate why even the life of an "evil" person is worth saving, and concludes that if there is no way to stop the fighting, he'll defend the hobgoblins against the paladins. He even considers whether he's morally obligated to fight and die against a celestial bound to cause that doesn't seem sufficiently Good, which is a great Huck Finn moment.
• O-Chul finally succeeds while literally refusing to draw his sword in a duel against a more skilled warrior, by convincing two opposing sides to cease fighting.
• While it isn't clear how many hobgoblins he kills in the battle for the bridge, by my count O-Chul kills three people onscreen (a hobgoblin soldier, the ettin, and a hobgoblin warchief), on screen. The last being on page 17 of 95.

Honestly, O-Chul demonstrates a commitment to nonviolent solutions throughout his origin story that go WAY beyond what I'd expect from a Redemption Paladin player at the table. As a secondary character he doesn't get as many chances to demonstrate these qualities in the main story, but he's still a critical figure in the MitD's apparent redemption arc. The Oath of Devotion isn't a bad fit for him in the way that the Oath of Vengeance or the Ancients would be, but all of his actions in his own story are so clearly that of a Redeemer.

Welp, I'm sold.

And in mourning, he'll hold his breath and move to another plane of existence?

And swear a vow of poverty. Don't forget funding his IRA!

[KorvinStarmast]

When Durkon turns into a vampire he would change to a trickery domain.

Monsters don't necessarily have a domain; 5e doesn't handle a vampire PC all that well, it takes some fiddling with the NPC to make it work. But I think you have the right concept there.

Miko is an oathbreaker paladin

Not seeing that. When she falls she isn't a paladin of any kind anymore. She's either a Devotion (probably not) Crown (from SCAG) or Conquest (Given her attitude, I'd probably go with that). Her MC into Monk can be folded in reasonably well. And to a certain extent, her approach and attitude toward the world in general almost screams "Vengeance Paladin" to me since she's very much "I'll fix this with a few swings of my sword" in a lot of cases.

V might take at least one levl of warock when he makes a pact with the demon people

Not seeing that. It's a temporary expedient that backfires.

Thog is probably barbarian fighter multiclass

Yeah, or a Barbarian with a few feats.

[2D8HP]

I feel like Elan would multiclass into swashbuckler

My mind immediately kept to Swashbuckler as a substitute for Dashing Swordsman as well

As for O-Chul, the Conquest and Vengeance Oaths are right out, I could see him as Devotion or Redemption (and if I squint hard Ancients) but given how he came to be a Paladin I think Oath of the Crown fits:

The Oath of the Crown is sworn to the ideals of civilization, be it the spirit of a nation, fealty to a sovereign of service to a deity of law and rulership. The paladins who swear this oath dedicate themselves to serving society and, in particular, the just laws that hold society together. These paladins are the watchful guardians on the walls, standing against the chaotic tides of barbarism that threatened to tear down all that civilization has built, and are commonly known as guardians, exemplars, or sentinels. Often, paladins who swear this oath are members of an order of knighthood in service to a nation or a sovereign, and undergo their oath as part of their admission to the order’s ranks.

Tenets of the Crown

The tenets of the Oath of the Crown are often set by the sovereign to which their oath is sworn, but generally emphasize the following tenets.
Law. The law is paramount. It is the mortar that holds the stones of civilization together, and it must be respected.
Loyalty. Your word is your bond. Without loyalty, oaths and laws are meaningless.
Courage. You must be willing to do what needs to be done for the sake of order, even in the face of overwhelming odds. If you don’t act, then who will?
Responsibility. You must deal with the consequences of your actions, and you are responsible for fulfilling your duties and obligations.

[Peelee]

My mind immediately kept to Swashbuckler as a substitute for Dashing Swordsman as well

As for O-Chul, the Conquest and Vengeance Oaths are right out, I could see him as Devotion or Redemption (and if I squint hard Ancients) but given how he came to be a Paladin I think Oath of the Crown fits:

The Oath of the Crown is sworn to the ideals of civilization, be it the spirit of a nation, fealty to a sovereign of service to a deity of law and rulership. The paladins who swear this oath dedicate themselves to serving society and, in particular, the just laws that hold society together. These paladins are the watchful guardians on the walls, standing against the chaotic tides of barbarism that threatened to tear down all that civilization has built, and are commonly known as guardians, exemplars, or sentinels. Often, paladins who swear this oath are members of an order of knighthood in service to a nation or a sovereign, and undergo their oath as part of their admission to the order’s ranks.

Tenets of the Crown

The tenets of the Oath of the Crown are often set by the sovereign to which their oath is sworn, but generally emphasize the following tenets.
Law. The law is paramount. It is the mortar that holds the stones of civilization together, and it must be respected.
Loyalty. Your word is your bond. Without loyalty, oaths and laws are meaningless.
Courage. You must be willing to do what needs to be done for the sake of order, even in the face of overwhelming odds. If you don’t act, then who will?
Responsibility. You must deal with the consequences of your actions, and you are responsible for fulfilling your duties and obligations.

Spoiler: How the Paladin got his Scar

Show

Don't forget, though, O-Chul wanted the Sapphire Guard disbanded. He was NOT a fan of them or their place on Azurite civilization, and when that was absolutely refused, he was willing to join them to try and change them from within (again, NOT a fan of them, so this is a significant sacrifice--he's giving up his previous life to try to make them better, with no guarantee it will work.

[Kish]

Why can't he have both?

Because Elan is not by any stretch of the imagination a leader, and has in fact actively resisted that role or anything associated with it at every turn. (To the distress and/or incomprehension of a number of people posting during Don't Split the Party who assumed that Elan would be the leader of the Order while Roy was dead--probably because he was the other human male.)

[Vulsutyr]

I think Elan was a lore bard who MCed into swashbuckler. This keeps the part of the story where he trained with Julio.

If anything, Greg would have been a Death Cleric if he switched domains. Not trickery tho. He didn’t worship Loki.

I don’t know if anyone has said a subclass for Roy, but I think he is 100% a battlemaster. Thog’s fighter levels are probably champion if he got to lvl 3.

[Peelee]

Because Elan is not by any stretch of the imagination a leader, and has in fact actively resisted that role or anything associated with it at every turn. (To the distress and/or incomprehension of a number of people posting during Don't Split the Party who assumed that Elan would be the leader of the Order while Roy was dead--probably because he was the other human male.)

My only disagreement - I'd change "human" for "white." and ditch "other," I guess.

[Connington]

When Durkon turns into a vampire he would change to a trickery domain.

Durkon* was an NPC villain worshiping the Goddess of Death. This seems like the definition of what the Death Domain in the DMG was designed for.

Spoiler: How the Paladin got his Scar

Show

Don't forget, though, O-Chul wanted the Sapphire Guard disbanded. He was NOT a fan of them or their place on Azurite civilization, and when that was absolutely refused, he was willing to join them to try and change them from within (again, NOT a fan of them, so this is a significant sacrifice--he's giving up his previous life to try to make them better, with no guarantee it will work.

Agreed. I've personally argued for Redemption over Devotion for O-Chul, but it's not open and shut. Crown just doesn't fit him anymore than Ancients or Vengeance.

Before her fall, I'd say Miko is a toss-up between Crown and Vengeance, maybe leaning Crown. She's not NOT suitable for Devotion, but tenets like "Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm" certainly don't come naturally to her. Honestly, the Sapphire Guard that we see in Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar has A LOT of paladins sworn to the oaths of Vengeance and Crown. Hopefully Hinjo has been able to enact some reforms.

It's natural to peg Hinjo as Crown because, you know, he's wearing one, but I actually think Devotion suits what we've seen of him. He's very much "Law AND Good" as opposed to "Law IS Good".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because Elan is not by any stretch of the imagination a leader, and has in fact actively resisted that role or anything associated with it at every turn. (To the distress and/or incomprehension of a number of people posting during Don't Split the Party who assumed that Elan would be the leader of the Order while Roy was dead--probably because he was the other human male.)

I don't quite remember that distress, but would I be wrong in assuming a certain amount of overlap in the constituency of that group and those that expected Tarquin to be the greatest general of all time, and were thus similarly distressed and/or in denial about his capabilities?

Grey Wolf