Iomedae and One Night Stands

[Draco_Lord]

So... because this came up in my last session, and sparked a bit of a discussion, I am curious as to what other people think. Can a Paladin have a one night stand with someone, who is aware it is a one night stand, and not worry about moving towards a fall? Heck, are they naturally immoral? Do they even count as Chaotic, given the lack of laws about it? Or should they get a bit of a warning about it?

[LoyalPaladin]

Honestly, this is probably better left untouched by the DM and just brushed under the mat. But, if this is going to be a thing, why not leave it up to the deity? Some deities could care less, others might care a lot. Who is this paladin a champion of? If they're just a paladin of ideals, so long as it doesn't conflict with their "mission statement", I'd say it's probably not worth touching on.

[Draco_Lord]

Iomedae is the deity of the paladin. And while it is something I would normally not get into, players are... well they are players. Personally, I went with no, not going to cause an issue, because that made my life easier. It doesn't conflict with their mission, they met someone who they thought was cute, the two flirted a bit, and it was pretty clear what was happening. The guy wasn't a bad person, his actions and a quick detect evil show that. And it doesn't hurt their mission in any way.

[torrasque666]

So... because this came up in my last session, and sparked a bit of a discussion, I am curious as to what other people think. Can a Paladin have a one night stand with someone, who is aware it is a one night stand, and not worry about moving towards a fall? Heck, are they naturally immoral? Do they even count as Chaotic, given the lack of laws about it? Or should they get a bit of a warning about it?

If the paladin is upfront about it being a ONS, then no. Its not chaotic. Its not evil. Its simply a neutral act.

[Geddy2112]

Iomedae's code specifically says "I will channel her strength through my body. I will shine in her legion, and I will not tarnish her glory through base actions." and "I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomeadae's perfection."

Both of which frown highly on one night stands and other carnal expressions. I don't think it is a gross enough violation to fall or even be on the path, but Iomedae would probably not be thrilled. It would probably be one of those "You know your actions were not approved of by Iomedae, but so long as it does not become a regular thing you are forgiven."

IMO, Iomedae's code is fallbait and her fluff encourages players to be toxic stick in the mud seek and smite paladins. But also, her and her stupid code encourage DM's to punish Pallys. So I would take the Inheritor and her stuck up righteousness with a grain of salt before you go throwing the book at your paladin player. In the future, you might want to throw out Iomidae as an option, as all of the other pally supporting gods are much more reasonable and less narrow minded.

[Red Fel]

When LP talks about Paladin stuff, you should probably listen.

But yeah, I agree; this isn't the sort of thing that you want to get into. If you must, keep in mind that the Paladin represents justice, compassion, and all-around Lawful Goodness. That has absolutely nothing to do with sex or romance. Unless a Paladin's faith, oaths, or principles preclude such things, there's nothing wrong with a Paladin having a one night stand, or a drinking problem, or anger issues, so long as he continues to endeavor to be the best, noblest, most moral person he can be.

A Paladin falls for performing Evil acts. Generally speaking, a one-night stand isn't Evil, unless it's designed to be extremely cruel. You can be needlessly cruel doing a thing like that, but that's not an inherent property of the act itself.

Iomedae specifically encourages a clean appearance and an upright demeanor. Chastity, or even monogamy, aren't necessarily virtues of hers or of her followers. Provided a Paladin maintains a proper demeanor and bearing, I see no issue with him offering a night of comfort to someone.

[Sayt]

One night stands are... not really relevant to Iomedae's portfolio, so if she was going to care, it would be because of the circumstances surrounding the event.

On Golarion, in a wider, cosmological sense, sex is pretty squarely neutral. There are Demon Lords of Lust and Empyreal Lords for sex workers.

Was the Paladin open and honest about his commitment? Lying and misleading tend not to be Lawful
Was a prophylactic used? Skipping out on a kid is probably not Lawful, and if you're leaving a young mother to provide beyond their means, it's probably not Good.

Honestly, providing it was open, honest, and consensual, the only Good god on Golarion I could see grumping would be Erastil, because he's stuffy and wants people to form cohesive family units (Although he has been stated more recently to not particularly care about the composition of the family, just that it's a family), rather than traipsing up and down the country going on adventures. (Erastil would like Tolkien's Hobbits quite a lot in some ways, I think, they tend to share a staid, boring-but-good-natured conservatism.)

[Telonius]

In itself, a "One Night Stand" would probably be neither Good nor Evil. They can certainly be either, depending on the situation; but that has more to do with expectations, honesty, respect, and consent.

In terms of Law and Chaos, that's entirely culture-dependent. If it's in a culture that frowns on it, it might be Chaotic; if the culture doesn't care it's probably Neutral. If they're in a culture that expects or encourages it, it might even be Lawful. (I can imagine it being prescribed during some fertility festivals, for example).

[Psyren]

Both of which frown highly on one night stands and other carnal expressions.

Nothing in your quote supports that. It doesn't mention sex at all, sporadic or otherwise.

[LoyalPaladin]

The guy wasn't a bad person, his actions and a quick detect evil show that. And it doesn't hurt their mission in any way.

Oh, I see. I'm a Forgotten Realms guy, so I didn't pick up the deity queue.

Like I said, best not to get involved. But...

Iomedae's code specifically says "I will channel her strength through my body. I will shine in her legion, and I will not tarnish her glory through base actions." and "I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomeadae's perfection."

This makes me worry. It sounds like this a "Joan of Arc" sort of deity and his actions are probably an affront to her.

When LP talks about Paladin stuff, you should probably listen.

I'm glad my words hold some worth! This made my day, may I have the honor of adding this to my signature?

Iomedae specifically encourages a clean appearance and an upright demeanor. Chastity, or even monogamy, aren't necessarily virtues of hers or of her followers. Provided a Paladin maintains a proper demeanor and bearing, I see no issue with him offering a night of comfort to someone.

Red is far more versed in the world of pathfinder than I am, so I will differ to his judgement on a specific deity's porfolio and cares. So long as the paladin doesn't turn into a sleazy or racy individual, he should be upholding his code.

[Chronos]

Certainly not evil, might be chaotic, might be against the paladin's oaths, probably not enough to cause a fall.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that every paladin's player should discuss the precise details of that particular paladin's code with the DM before a game even starts.

[Coidzor]

Iomedae was a soldier. She knows about one last **** on the eve of battle where neither pair is interested in the other beyond a source of comfort for the here and now. She knows about briefly connecting with someone physically on one's way elsewhere.

So I don't see any problems from her so long as nothing unethical is going on in the presentation of the scenario or of the way that they treat one another.

Did the Paladin lie in order to seduce their partner? Pressure them into it? Violate their consent in any way? Do anything that was unethical, either in and of itself or in the context of doing that to get a ONS?

If not, then there's really no grounds for going looking for making the Paladin fall from the sex. Having someone try to use that sexual connection to manipulate the Paladin... That's par for the course, if you're working blue, anyway.

[LoyalPaladin]

If not, then there's really no grounds for going looking for making the Paladin fall from the sex.

I mean, if he's not up to his deity's standards... haha.

[Boogastreehouse]

*

I don't think that one-night-stands in and of themselves can be classified as immoral at all. Specific events within the situation, however, can range from minor transgressions of virtue and honor to blatantly evil acts.

If you mislead someone in a one-night-stand (misrepresenting yourself or falsely stating/implying that you will continue to be involved with the other party in the future) then that deception is not very virtuous. Likewise, if you ply the other party by manipulating his or her insecurities (through calculated flattery, belittlement etc.), or take advantage of someone's inexperience, you are clearly straying into evil territory. Not chaotic. Evil. You're betraying someone's trust and taking advantage of them in a way that may leave them forever scarred, humiliated and/or regretful, an act that would be unworthy of a paladin, or really any decent person.

This is not even mentioning the use of alcohol, drugs or magic to aid in the seduction. Saying "let's have a few drinks and fool around" offers full disclosure of intent and the other party is able to give consent while in their right state of mind; probably no harm. This is far different from getting someone drunk and then putting the moves on them. Evil.

Two (or more) consenting adults engaging in an activity that makes them happy or satisfied, and harms no one else is probably not going to be evil. Engaging in a physical act with noble intentions, such as expressing genuine affection, building inspiration, or even just as a desire to share simple pleasures can all be good and virtuous acts, if approached with the right mentality.

A paladin (or anybody) who has sworn themselves to chastity is a different story. They have sacrificed their enjoyment of carnal pleasures in order to focus their attention on spiritual matters and avoid the temptations toward deception, jealousy, aggression and the breaking of vows that can come from indulging in bodily pleasures.


Edit: I like Coidzor's post; more succinct than mine. Actually this whole thread is full of good posts.

*

[Psyren]

I mean, if he's not up to his deity's standards... haha.

Her standards mention nothing about one-night stands or sex at all.

The closest we can come is that she disapproves of adultery and abuse, both of which are mutually exclusive with ONS.

[Red Fel]

I'm glad my words hold some worth! This made my day, may I have the honor of adding this to my signature?

Do it, Rockapella.

Her standards mention nothing about one-night stands or sex at all.

I don't think that's what he meant by standards.

Also, LP: Performance joke? From you? Renegade point, chief, well earned.

[illyahr]

Resident bard weighing in. As LP stated, as long as both parties were made fully aware of the implications and intentions (lawful act) and it was done with care and respect for the partner (good act) there shouldn't be a problem. This is one of the things the BoEF got right. If you want to take a look, the fluff sections are extremely well written.

[Tuvarkz]

Considering what Iomedae does to you for mocking or being disrespectful to her in WotR? I'd cast my die on her not liking it at all.
*trumpeting ensues*

[LoyalPaladin]

Do it, Rockapella.

I shall!

Her standards mention nothing about one-night stands or sex at all.

I don't think you-

I don't think that's what he meant by standards.

Re Fel get's it!

Also, LP: Performance joke? From you? Renegade point, chief, well earned.

We all have our shining moments. Not all paladins prioritize charisma like I do. ;D

Resident bard weighing in.

Welcome to the discussion Illyahr! *charismatic fist bump*

[Aleolus]

According to the Book of Erotic Fantasy, a Paladin can absolutely engage in a ONS, as long as both sides understand that is all it will be. This, by extention, means a Paladin can engage in wenching, prostitution (as long as its legal in the area), and so on. Specific gods may take exception, but as a general rule its fine

[Psyren]

I don't think that's what he meant by standards.

I don't think you-


Red Fel get's it!

Yeah, I've been having a long day because that one went right over my head

No need to explain, I get it now.

[Geddy2112]

Nothing in your quote supports that. It doesn't mention sex at all, sporadic or otherwise.

And I did not say she frowned on sex, as Iomidae supports marriage and family. Her code requires "temperance in action, moderation in behavior, and not tarnishing her glory through base action"
If Iomidae considers one night stands to be a violation of any of this is debatable. However, being a fairly stickler LG deity, I don't think she encourages her followers to have casual sex. While it is probably beneath her paladins (and other followers) to do so, I doubt they would get more than a slightly disapproving look. There are plenty of things a deity won't condone but won't smite/abandon you for doing. I doubt Iomidae encourages, but it is true she might not care.

According to the Book of Erotic Fantasy, a Paladin can absolutely engage in a ONS, as long as both sides understand that is all it will be. This, by extention, means a Paladin can engage in wenching, prostitution (as long as its legal in the area), and so on. Specific gods may take exception, but as a general rule its fine

Alternatively, certain deities might support. Calistria is a pathfinder deity, and most of her followers are prostitutes. Many of her ceremonies involve sexual activity.

This makes me worry. It sounds like this a "Joan of Arc" sort of deity and his actions are probably an affront to her.

She basically is Joan of Arc. Has a book of 11 miracles she performed as a human, led crusades, constantly looks to seek and smite evil, considers anybody who does not help good to be evil....

[Cranthis]

She basically is Joan of Arc. Has a book of 11 miracles she performed as a human, led crusades, constantly looks to seek and smite evil, considers anybody who does not help good to be evil....

But don't forget her 8th act. She convinced an evil guy to throw himself upon his sword, which redeemed his soul. I used this to play a Paladin in the same party of an evil guy, and spent plenty of downtime trying to convert him to good.

[LoyalPaladin]

Yeah, I've been having a long day because that one went right over my head

No need to explain, I get it now.

S'all good. We can all have a hearty chuckle together now.

She basically is Joan of Arc. Has a book of 11 miracles she performed as a human, led crusades, constantly looks to seek and smite evil, considers anybody who does not help good to be evil....

Seems like a great deity. I'm a Tormtar, myself.

[illyahr]

Welcome to the discussion Illyahr! *charismatic fist bump*

[Nibbens]

Yeah, I'd leave this one alone. Nothing good ever comes from discussing sexual morality in a world where there are gods and goddesses of sex.

[Psyren]

And I did not say she frowned on sex, as Iomidae supports marriage and family. Her code requires "temperance in action, moderation in behavior, and not tarnishing her glory through base action"
If Iomidae considers one night stands to be a violation of any of this is debatable. However, being a fairly stickler LG deity, I don't think she encourages her followers to have casual sex. While it is probably beneath her paladins (and other followers) to do so, I doubt they would get more than a slightly disapproving look. There are plenty of things a deity won't condone but won't smite/abandon you for doing. I doubt Iomidae encourages, but it is true she might not care.

There's a lot of daylight between "she doesn't encourage this" and "you will fall for this" though, and the latter is the topic of this thread. She doesn't encourage divorce either, yet her temples offer sanctuary to unhappy/endangered spouses until they can finalize one. It's pretty obvious you wouldn't fall for doing that either.

[Jack_Simth]

Was a prophylactic used? Skipping out on a kid is probably not Lawful, and if you're leaving a young mother to provide beyond their means, it's probably not Good.

Note that in this specific case, it's noted a little on down the line:

they met someone who they thought was cute, the two flirted a bit, and it was pretty clear what was happening. The guy wasn't a bad person, his actions and a quick detect evil show that.

(Emphasis added)
If the reasonable potential exists for a child from the union in question, the Paladin isn't leaving a young mother behind.

[Boci]

There's a lot of daylight between "she doesn't encourage this" and "you will fall for this" though, and the latter is the topic of this thread.

The OP actually said "and not worry about moving towards a fall?", they never mentioned actual falling. Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone on this thread is advocating that, just that his Goddess may slap him on the wrist.

[Psyren]

The OP actually said "and not worry about moving towards a fall?", they never mentioned actual falling. Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone on this thread is advocating that, just that his Goddess may slap him on the wrist.

Fine, but I see no evidence for that either. It would have to be something tangential to the sex itself, like lying his way into the sheets or breaking hearts repeatedly or something. Not a consensual and fully-understood tryst.