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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Challenge: Build something that can spot this bugger. Without seeing magical auras.

    This is a 10 level build.

    ========================

    Race is goblin. +4 Size bonus to Stealth, +4 Racial bonus to stealth, +2 Dexterity Bonus. Pick up the Color Thief trait (goblins of Golorion) for +2 trait bonus to stealth. Stealth is always a class skill for you. Cave Crawler ART for climb speed. (No mechanical boost, but a good ninja-feel.) [Halfling gets better sniping, but I like the more monstrous goblin for this.]

    That's a +12 before we even get to point buy. Impressive, all considered.

    Obviously, maximize Dexterity to 18. This can be done in all but the lowest point buy without much consequence. So another +4 Stealth. 16 now. Int 14 is pretty safe too.

    For classes, we want 2 levels of Rogue for the rogue talent Fast Stealth. That's effectively a +10, relative to before, unless you're fine with creeping along at 10 ft / round. We make up for these lost caster levels with the Magical Knack, for +2 CL. Trapfinding is probably worth more than the piddly bonus Chameleon archetype gives.

    We'll want to start with 1 level in Scholar from SoM for access to a martial tradition. (Also, just straight up start with Alchemy and Scout spheres, which means even if you cared only for Stealth, that's +5 skill points).
    Spoiler: EDIT
    Show
    I changed part of this when I realized my misreading of the Alchemy Formulae, and Conscript is likely "better" but it is inconsequential for this build, and I don't feel like changing it.


    Spoiler: Martial Tradition
    Show
    Sphere Specific Drawbacks: Scout's Hidden Eyes. You can't scout, but you gain Active Camouflage, the talent we wanted in the first place. This grants +10 (not taking Sniper penalty) and half again from your Ranks.

    Tradition: Daring Scholar, for 1 Alchemy Talents and 2 Scout talent.
    Scout Talents are Lurker, which is like Darkstalker, but even sneakier; and Great Senses, because Perception is OP.

    Alchemy Talents (including the one granted by Scholar) are: Formulae, granting Salve; and Panacea; (Hey, it's something to fall back on.)

    You have 10 ranks in both Stealth and Alchemy by level 10 because of the talents. This means you can craft 3 formulae in 15 minutes, and have a max at one time of 7 formulae.


    Checkpoint: So, 10 skill ranks brings the total stealth bonus (so far) to +26, and we can move fast and Snipe for much less penalty.

    We then finish this build off with 7 levels of Incanter (no specialization). This grants us 13 Magic Talents, a magic tradition, 4 bonus feats, at least 9 spell points and CL 9.

    Spoiler: Stealthy Magic Talents
    Show
    Sphere (total talents in sphere, including base): Talent and reason

    Light (2): Chameleon for +CL to Stealth for CL hours for a spell point. Also hide regardless of being watched.

    Enhance (3): Muffle Sound for effective +CL to Stealth for sound-base perception (which is weird, because then people are better at detecting you by plugging their ears, somehow). Need to take Deep Enhancements so you can spend a spell point and have it last for 10xCL minutes.

    Alteration (5): Size Change, which can make you Diminutive from Small, for +8 to stealth, and +4 to Dex (and +2 to hit). Orb to polymorph yourself to an orb, which counts as one size smaller for stealth (+4), oh and fly speed. Perfect Imitation because it grants the alteration trait Camouflage, for +5 Circumstance to Stealth. Might not fly, but assume it does. Lingering Shapeshift is needed to make it last for 2xCL minutes, but you can get all of these in one spell point (and action)

    Illusion (5): Invisibility for +CL to Stealth, and Silence for +4 to Stealth. You also need to take Lingering Illusion so you can spend 2 spell points (each) for CL minutes of these illusions. Not fantastic, but could help in a pinch. Could easily drop these. Manipulate Aura lets you make yourself give off a non-magical aura. Considering how blindingly magical you are, this is cool. Also hides magical equipment.

    Destruction (x+2): Energetic Affliction, to apply Incandescent Blast for -2 penalty to Perception for CL rounds, while dealing damage for a spell point. You can also freely spam 0.5*CL worth of D6s for no spell points, using your massively inflated ranged to-hit vs touch. Anything else taken here is pure gravy as far as the build is concerned.


    Now, if you dropped Illusion, you could take all of these with no drawbacks (and more gravy, if you took drawbacks). Without Illusion, or Alteration you can have +18 to stealth (-2 to perception for those afflicted), with Alteration that goes to +37, with Illusion, it goes up to +50 (52).
    Only Light is All-day (effectively) and only Enhance is long-term, but Alteration (and kinda Illusion) should be pre-castable a good bit before the actions are needed, and you can Manipulate Aura as a Trick to appear non magical for CL days.

    Checkpoint: Added together with our before-magic total that's +76 (78) to stealth. And you can fly really fast (comparatively) while stealthed with perfect maneuverability, with bonus +5 if you move. (We'll assume we're moving all the time, here on out.)

    Now Feats. Let's Address bonus feats from Incanter (4 of them). If Illusion is to be taken, then Extend Spell is rather nice, since you get 2x duration for only 1.5x cost (plus a feat), and you can use it with Energetic Affliction for more total Damage, again, for less total cost. Empower Spell could be kinda silly, if you interpret "bonus equal to caster level" as "variable numeric effects". I won't. Quicken Spell is also like...god tier.
    Otherwise, I'm taking Extra Spell Points for +2 SP for each of them. Even burning 1 SP every 90 minutes (keep up Enhance) costs 4 SP for 6 hours. So, say +8 SP, bringing our total to 17. Respectable.

    He's also got 5 normal feats from Progression. Obviously, Skill Focus (Stealth) for +6, and Stealthy for +4. If Dispel is prevalent, take Hellcat Stealth. Sneaky Vagabond grants +2 for those actively trying to find you (they aren't finding you by happenstance anyway). ....and...that's it. Literally. So you have 1 or 2 feats left over for Extra Spell Points. Or some other gravy. Maybe Athletics sphere for more speed.

    Checkpoint: With feats, the total bonus goes up to +95 stealth, or +97 in crowds, because reasons.

    And lastly! At long last! We get to magic items. Such Delicious Magic Items.
    First off, Greater Shadow armor costs +33,750 gp. WBL is 62,000 gp. That's just over half, but we'll be generous and allow it for +15 stealth. A Cloak of Elvenkind is a mere 2.5k for +5 Circumstance bonus. Problem: You're either going to need them made for your orb form...which means they are probably so small that you'd lose them if you set them down so they don't merge when you alter yourself.

    And....this applies to every single magic item. I mean, so they raise your out-of-orb stealth by 20. You could also probably use consumables before going orb form. This might actually mean you want to actually only use your orb form if they can spot you.

    As such, magic items are not really relevant to this build.

    Final Verdict: This build can rack up to +97 to Stealth, for a maximum possible stealth roll of 117. If you take the Chameleon Rogue Archetype, then the very first stealth check in a crowd in the day could get a maximum roll of 127.

    Take away the spheres spells, then you could still get +65, with Greater Invisibility spell, you get +40 while stationary, netting a total maximum of +105, for a maximum possible roll of 125, or 135 with archetype in a crowd.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2019-03-29 at 07:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    A few points you seem to have missed:

    • Chameleon requires only half speed at max, if you want to use hide in plain sight.
    • Hellcat Stealth allows this with no speed limit, but gives a -10 penalty.
    • If you take Scout's legendary talent Vanish (requires Walk Unseen), then having a martial focus gives this benefit with no penalty.


    Note that your calculations are not that easy to follow, since you don't split up the various components and you seem to add stuff only applicable under certain circumstances. So while I believe you surpass my own stealther (L12 with +42 bonus), I'm not convinced yet that you actually can break the 100.
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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Let's see: Inquisitor8/Wizard1/Sleepless detective1 so also lvl10 and all 1st party sources.

    Eyes of the Eagle +5 Competence bonus (2.5K)

    Xorn Robe +5 Untyped Bonus (20K)

    Demon Senses +8 Racial Bonus (20K)

    Acute Senses +30 Enhancement Bonus (800GP scroll Inquisitor2 1Min/lvl CL 16)

    Hunter's Blessing +4 Sacred Bonus (1625GP scroll Inquisitor5 1hr/lvl duration CL13)

    Pattern Recognition +10 Insight Bonus (500GP 10min/lvl scroll Wiz/Sorc1 CL20)

    10 Ranks

    3 Class Skill Bonus

    +6 Wisdom mod (18 start same as your character's primary attribute +2 level up +2 Enhancement item 4K GP)

    +4 Alertness

    +6 Skill Focus

    +2 Int Mod (14 Int same as your character starting)

    +1 Trait (Seeker)

    +3 Familiar Bonus (Hawk or Owl)

    +2 Aid Another from Familiar

    99 so far. Maximum 119 check.
    Last edited by Azoth; 2018-03-14 at 05:31 AM.


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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    I see a more or less unbeatable stealth check.
    My level 10 monkey goblin has a +53 to his check, though, so that is something.
    How do you plan on defeating scent, tremorsense, blindsight, or touchsight?
    I used to think I had this game mostly figured out. Then I made my first post. Cunningham's Law immediately kicked into gear.

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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Quote Originally Posted by BearonVonMu View Post
    I see a more or less unbeatable stealth check.
    My level 10 monkey goblin has a +53 to his check, though, so that is something.
    How do you plan on defeating scent, tremorsense, blindsight, or touchsight?
    The Scout talent Lurker helps with that. Now everyone has to roll Perception.
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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Quote Originally Posted by Azoth View Post
    Let's see: Inquisitor8/Wizard1/Sleepless detective1 so also lvl10 and all 1st party sources.

    99 so far. Maximum 119 check.
    Damn Nice. Also, That reminds me of using Familiars for Aid Another. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver View Post
    Note that your calculations are not that easy to follow, since you don't split up the various components and you seem to add stuff only applicable under certain circumstances. So while I believe you surpass my own stealther (L12 with +42 bonus), I'm not convinced yet that you actually can break the 100.
    Sorry. I'll enumerate it in a simpler list in just a moment. I spent too much time explaining trivialities. And....While I did not neccesarily 'forget' that Light sphere can only let you stealth (while observed) at half speed, I didn't make make any mention of it when I unrecommended Illusion sphere. But I did end up using Illusion sphere in my calculations, which allows unfettered stealth checks regardless.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2018-03-14 at 02:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Race (Goblin): +4 racial, +4 size, +2 from bonus Dex, +2 Color Thief trait.
    sTotal: +12

    Point buy: 18 Dex; +4 to Stealth
    sTotal: +16

    Skill Ranks: 10 in Stealth
    sTotal:+26

    Feats: +4 Stealthy, +6 Skill Focus, +2 Sneaky Vagabond while someone's looking for you, or +4 in a crowd
    sTotal: +36 (40)

    Combat Talents: +5 Active Camouflage if you moved 10 ft. last round (trivial, but I'll mark as situational); Lurker forces perception checks regardless of special senses (arguably includes Detect Magic Aura).
    sTotal:+36 (45)

    Magic Talents ---

    Light: +9 Chameleon
    sTotal: +45 (54)

    Enhance: +9 Muffle Sound (technically narrow, but you're invisible, so it need to be sound based, but I'll mark it as situational)
    sTotal: +45 (63)

    Alteration: +8 Size Change, and +2 from Dex; +4 Orb; +5 Camouflage
    sTotal: +64 (82)

    Illusion: +9 Invisibility, +4 Silence
    sTotal: +77 (95)

    Destruction: Incandescent Blast (-2 to target's perception)
    sTotal: +77 (97)

    Omnimental Familiar's Aid Another: +2
    sTotal: +79 (99)

    Maximum possible roll: 119

    ---

    Using 2 feats on Extra Combat Talent for the Scout sphere, instead of a 1 level dip gets us +1 CL, which is relevant for 3 Sphere effects (Invisibility, Chameleon, and Muffle Sound), for a +3 to Stealth
    sTotal: +82 (102)

    Maximum possible roll: 122

    -----

    Spell Support
    (Core) Greater Invisibility Spell, +20 or +40 while immobile
    sTotal: +102 (142)

    If the spell doesn't stack with Light's Chameleon, and Illusion's invisibility, subtract 20 from that.
    sTotal: +82 (122)

    If we give up being a diminutive soap bubble, we gain at least +1 to Stealth by having Greater Shadow armor, and Cloak of Elvenkind (and some more magic Items I didn't find).
    sTotal: +83 (123)

    Maximum possible roll: 143
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2018-03-14 at 02:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    I would have to check Spheres to see if there are any ways to boost Perception higher, but the only other methods I could think of in Paizo products to boost raw numbers aside dumping other stats to just boost Int and Wisdom is to gain Profane bonuses to stats by making deals with a Lilitu Demon for +4 Wisdom and a Succubus for +2 Int. That would boost the numbers by 3 to 102 and max 122.

    Your stealth build could do similar for a +4 Profane to Dex and gain +2 stealth, so it would only be a net gain of +1 on the detector's numbers over your stealth.

    From Spheres:
    Light Telescope Lense for +6 Circumstance bonus from Wisdom Modifier.

    108 total Max 128.

    If we add Divination Sphere we can grab Ultravision to give an Untyped bonus equal to caster level which would be 10 if we use our other trait for Magical Knack (Inquisitor) so +10.

    118 total Max 138

    Alteration Sphere can grant 3 extra heads at CL10 at +2 each for another +6.

    124 total modifier for a max result of 144 Perception!

    Also Greater Shadow armor and the Cloak of Elvenkind don't stack. That drops your numbers by 5.
    Last edited by Azoth; 2018-03-14 at 04:51 PM.


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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    [EDIT! I do fix the mistake in this post in the upcoming posts.]

    I can only find head granting perception bonus to anarchic transformation. But, since you aren't going super small, it shouldn't be a problem to simply removed and replace your gear after you've transformed, so that should check out.

    Also, since I missed that the items were competence, not circumstance bonuses, then just be a soap bubble and only lose 1 point off. But then you get to benefit from the +6 Wisdom item while I benefit from none, so that, the net result is that I lose 1 and you gain a relative 3 (or maybe +6 if it wasn't accounted for in your Telescope lens, in which case, yeah, dump the idea of being a soap bubble).

    Oh! wait! I can do blank form with Size Change and Camouflage to not lose my items. So...work backwards. Lose 5 from not cloak. Then gain 15 from non-orb alterations. So I increase my total by 10, actually, and I'll officially add the dexterity item of +4...I ran out of money, I think.

    sTotal: +95 (135)

    With scrolls on the table, I can cast Blessing of the Mole, Chameleon Stride, and Forced Quiet for +10 more (4 of which is circumstance, though I have no other circumstance bonuses going on).

    So now, my max bonus is +145, and max roll of 165.

    Max roll of 159 if I wasn't able to move last turn and then be immobile the turn you make your perception check.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2019-04-12 at 11:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Check your bonus types. Greater Shadow and Elixer of Hiding don't stack.

    This is why in my math I laid out each bonus by type in my math to make sure I wasn't stacking incompatible bonuses.


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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Quote Originally Posted by Azoth View Post
    Check your bonus types. Greater Shadow and Elixer of Hiding don't stack.

    This is why in my math I laid out each bonus by type in my math to make sure I wasn't stacking incompatible bonuses.
    Ah, competence. Was pretty sure it said circumstance on Greater Shadow and Cloak. Now I understand why you said they don't stack.

    Btw. I really, really enjoyed this. I look forward to your next installation that forces me to yet again figure out a way to eek out a tiny bit more stealth.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2018-03-15 at 01:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Are you able to get your hands on the Umbral bloodline 1st level power, probably via VMC (or maybe Eldritch heritage, but I'm not sure you can get a Wildblooded bloodline with it)? Standard action for a 1/2 level untyped bonus to stealth; that means +10 at level 20 (or +5 at level 10), but it costs 5 feats as VMC.

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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    ...+2 from bonus Dex...18 Dex; +4 to Stealth...
    Are you double-counting your Dex bonus? Sure, your racial bonus gives you a bonus to Dex and your point buy raises it further. But an 18 Dex is an 18 Dex and give you a total of +4, not +2 and then +4 more.
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    Default A single class dip to consider

    I am not sure how this affects your numbers, but a single level in Summoner (Synthesist archetype) is sufficient to get a +8 racial bonus to stealth via the Skilled Evolution, when encased in the eidolon form. Note that the eidolon form does overwrite the base dexterity, and the maximum there is 16 in the serpentine form.

    Although every time I think of the Synthesist snake eidolon, I am reminded of the Evil Overlord List A-34: "I will not turn into a snake. It never helps."

    The same ability can work better for maximum Perception rolls, since the eidolon suit does not overwrite Wisdom scores.

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    Default Re: Stealthiest Stealth that ever Stealthed

    Quote Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner View Post
    Are you double-counting your Dex bonus? Sure, your racial bonus gives you a bonus to Dex and your point buy raises it further. But an 18 Dex is an 18 Dex and give you a total of +4, not +2 and then +4 more.
    Oops. I literally meant for the Dex from the race to be +2, because that's the mod of getting a +4 to Dex. But I wrote the plus to score, rather than the mod. So...good catch.

    EDIT: Nope. I did only add the bonus. As you can see when you take +4 (size) +4 (race) +2 (from the +4 dex increase) and +2 (color thief), which I correctly said to be +12.

    An 18 point buy of Dex has a bonus to dex of +4. The order of addition doesn't actually matter because it's addition, and it was simpler to total up all the effects of the race first, then talk about maximum bonus from point buy.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2018-07-11 at 10:07 PM.

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