Tarmor's Terribly Tantalizing Tarasque Terrrifying Random Banter #234

[Fyraltari]

This is an argument I never get.

For one, if you're talking immortality then being able to die means you're not talking immortality.

Do you have a better word for "undefinite youth"?

For two, people can do that now but it's heavily frowned on in most circumstances. If killing yourself becuase you're bored of living is unacceptable at 28, why would it be okay at 2800?

I think that should I find myself stuck in a black hole which if my understanding of current cosmological models is correct is inevitable, I'd rather die than go "living" being elongated to an impossibly fine line and compressed into a single point.

[Rater202]

Do you have a better word for "undefinite youth"?

Eternal Youth.

I think that should I find myself stuck in a black hole which if my understanding of current cosmological models is correct is inevitable, I'd rather die than go "living" being elongated to an impossibly fine line and compressed into a single point.

If you're genuinely immortal, the Black Hole can't hurt you.

If you're not, then you wouldn't survive being caught in such a way. Or, you know, even live that long in the first place.

[Fyraltari]

Eternal Youth.

Well no. "Eternal" never ends.

If you're genuinely immortal, the Black Hole can't hurt you.

Then I'm spending all eternity drifiting into space aimlessely into space. Paradise.

If you're not, then you wouldn't survive being caught in such a way. Or, you know, even live that long in the first place.

Which would be preferable.

[Rater202]

Well no. "Eternal" never ends.

If you're gonna play semantics, your youth never ends if you die before you get old.

Then I'm spending all eternity drifiting into space aimlessely into space. Paradise.

Infintie time means eventually, everything will happen(presumably, if you're truly immortal, excluding your death.)

Which means eventually a new universe will form around you.[/QUOTE]

[HalfTangible]

Out of curiosity, for the participants in this thread who have rejected eternal youth/immortality...

What would it take to make such a thing "worth it" to you?

.... nobody in this or any thread has rejected eternal youth/immortality because none of us have been offered it

[Beeftank]

Hopefully the endless isolation and sensory deprivation during those several billion years (if you’re lucky) don’t drive you into insanity.

[Rater202]

.... nobody in this or any thread has rejected eternal youth/immortality because none of us have been offered it

I've proposed multiple hypothecal scenarios involving immortality or eternal youth, which several people have rejected specifically due to becoming immortal or being eternally youthful.

[Peelee]

Infintie time means eventually, everything will happen

How do you figure that? "Infinite" does not mean "all". For example, there are an infinite set of numbers between 1 and 2, but none of them are 3.

[HalfTangible]

I've proposed multiple hypothecal scenarios involving immortality or eternal youth, which several people have rejected specifically due to becoming immortal or being eternally youthful.

"Hypothetical" being the key phrase

[Fyraltari]

If you're gonna play semantics, your youth never ends if you die before you get old.

I don't see your point. Also you're the one who started with semantics when you said that "immortality" means you can't make it stop. Which is why I asked you what term you would find better fitting to what I was proposing.

Infintie time means eventually, everything will happen(presumably, if you're truly immortal, excluding your death.)

Which means eventually a new universe will form around you.

You are assyming that time is infinite, which we don't know.
Also if absolutely everything will happen (to me), that means I would go (among other things) through the most horrible experiences conceivable and inconceivable. Pass.

[Peelee]

That's great, except the right to die movement is about voluntary euthanasia of people who are terminally ill or suffering severe conditions that destroy their quality of life with no hope for recovery.

People wanting to opt-out of immortality are usually talking about sadness at outliving their friends or boredom from seeing everything. Suicidal ideation motivated by depression or boredom is usually considered a sign of mental illness.

And you have not considered at all that an unending lifespan might radically change psychology and how that concept might change?

I've proposed multiple hypothecal scenarios involving immortality or eternal youth, which several people have rejected specifically due to becoming immortal or being eternally youthful.

Many of which have catches, and even without, as several people have mentioned, not everyone fantasizes about transhumanism. And this is far beyond fantasizing, you have something of an obsession with it. Of course you're going to fundamentally disagree with any point of view counter to yours if you have invested so much of yourself into such a fantasy.

[Rater202]

How do you figure that? "Infinite" does not mean "all". For example, there are an infinite set of numbers between 1 and 2, but none of them are 3.

No, but there are a finite number of things that are physically possible and a finite number of ways that matter and energy can be arranged.

Given infinite time, particularly with the presence of an infinite source feeding energy into an otherwise closed-system(IE, one or more true immortals) then eventually everything that can happen eventually will.

I don't see your point. Also you're the one who started with semantics when you said that "immortality" means you can't make it stop. Which is why I asked you what term you would find better fitting to what I was proposing.

That's not arguing semantics, that's citing a fact.

Immortality, in the absence of a qualifier like "clinical" or 'virtual", means the inability to die.

In order to choose to die, you need to be physically capable of dying.

Thus, being able to choose to terminate your own life precludes being immortal.

[Peelee]

No, but there are a finite number of things that are physically possible and a finite number of ways that matter and energy can be arranged.

Given infinite time, particularly with the presence of an infinite source feeding energy into an otherwise closed-system(IE, one or more true immortals) then eventually everything that can happen eventually will.

Again, that does not follow. You can say it as much as you want but the math doesn't support you. That is not how infinities work.

[Fyraltari]

No, but there are a finite number of things that are physically possible and a finite number of ways that matter and energy can be arranged.

Given infinite time, particularly with the presence of an infinite source feeding energy into an otherwise closed-system(IE, one or more true immortals) then eventually everything that can happen eventually will.

1) You are again assuming infinite time. We do not know that to be a thing.
2) Everything that can happen inside that system may happen. The creation of another universe would be the apparition of another system, which absent a way to travel from one to the other, does not help at all.

That's not arguing semantics, that's citing a fact.

Immortality, in the absence of a qualifier like "clinical" or 'virtual", means the inability to die.

In order to choose to die, you need to be physically capable of dying.

Thus, being able to choose to terminate your own life precludes being immortal.

Semantic: of or relating to meaning in language.
Your statements about the meaning of the word immortality is semantic. That is a (semantic) fact.

[HalfTangible]

That's not arguing semantics, that's citing a fact.

Immortality, in the absence of a qualifier like "clinical" or 'virtual", means the inability to die.

In order to choose to die, you need to be physically capable of dying.

Thus, being able to choose to terminate your own life precludes being immortal.

You claim to be stating a fact but then you argue based on semantics and still are not answering his question.

[Metastachydium]

Missy people

(Who are these Missy people? They sound nice.)

Immortality (…) means the inability to die.

In order to choose to die, you need to be physically capable of dying.

Thus, being able to choose to terminate your own life precludes being immortal.

Okay, and that would be the single creepiest thing I've heard today, so congratulations are in order.

[Anonymouswizard]

When you offer Vita Sine Fine and others opt out because they aren't interested in the 'without end' but, then I'm not sure why you think you could convince them into accepting it without removing the without end bit.

I don't think that matter can spontaneously create a new universe. Therefore I'll end up drifting through the universe in it's lowest energy state in my lowest energy state. If we're assuming thinking takes no energy then I'll have an the rights I can have and then have nothing to do for the next few eternities, all wine just wishing I could converse with somebody. Sounds like heaven.

Being more realistic and assuming thinking does take energy, then I don't have the energy to think. Therefore from my point of view I might as well not exist. At this point it's probably a better deal to shuffle off the existence part while I have the energy to do so, risk it for a chance that there's a part of me that isn't rooted in the material universe will then have a better existence than physical me would.

[Fyraltari]

in my lowest energy state

Ah yes, Monday morning.

[Anonymouswizard]

Ah yes, Monday morning.

I mean who'd want an eternity of Mondays?

[HalfTangible]

An eternity in a low-energy state isn't even the most horrifying scenario I can come up with.

First off, eventually you're going to be sent drifting into space. Which means you're going to live through explosive decompression and spend who knows how long drifting in a cold, endless void.

Then (eventually) you're going to get trapped in the center of a star. And those things last for *billions* of years. Burning your eternal body that entire time.

Sure, given an infinitely resetting (or truly infinite) universe and truly undying immortality you will eventually end up on a planet again, but 'immortal' does not mean 'immune to injury/pain'.

[Rater202]

this is far beyond fantasizing, you have something of an obsession with it.

Everyone is obsessed with "immortality." All life on earth is motivated by the duel drives of survival and reproduction, which in humans have evolved into the more complex desire to survive long enough to leave a lasting legacy.

For some this means a long life. For others it means insuring the propagation of their bloodline, for others it's raising a good family whether related by blood or not, or leaving a lasting impression in other, or creating some great work.

At the end of the day, every sane, rational human being wants to either have a long life, or be remembered when their gone, with many wanting both, and that comes down to the same biological imperative to survive and propagate that's been handed down since the first complex amino acids spawned by random chance in the primordial ooze.

The only difference between say, a great artist and myself is that I want something more literal.

And I don't think anyone has the right to blame me: I watched cancer take my father. Cancer took a bunch of my other relatives too. I've had friends taken away in tragic, senseless accidents and had their names slandered after the fact. My great-grandmother was very spry, active, and sharp in late seventies and early eighties, then one day it was like a switch flipped. She didn't have any energy anymore, her mind went and it went fast. Then the strokes started. Have you ever actually seen someone dying of "old age?" People act like it's a good way to go, but it's not.

And I've told you all about the time my paternal grandmother beat cancer only to immediately die of an opportunistic infection. Did I mention how my maternal grandfather broke his back, the hospital said he'd make a full recovery, and then he randomly Coded and died minutes after they got him comfortable in his bed.

The autopsy found no cause of death.

My grandmother is falling apart before my eyes and I can't convince her to make even a modicum of effort to take better care of herself before it's too late.

I've seen people go horribly and I've seen people go senselessly. I've seen strong evidence that legacy immortality is unreliable and the man who isn't afraid of growing ill or being riddled by disease or toxins is a fool.

So, I quite logically concluded that this whole death thing was complete bull**** and decided that if I could find a way to become genuine, perfect immortality, I'd take it.

And share it with as many people as possible. I'd be morally obligated to it for much the same reason that someone who discovered a cure for HIV would be obligated to share it.

[Keltest]

I mean who'd want an eternity of Mondays?

Monday is my D&D day. That could go for quite a while if i have the ability to opt out of playing on a given monday.

[Anonymouswizard]

A healthy human is fine to go away eventually so there's still enough resources for the younger humans. Not everybody is fine with going away now, and it's perfectly healthy to switch from survival mode to time to die mode at an age older than any human head reached.

I have an interest in having my aging paused, not an obsession with it, as well as an interest in raising children at some point (and a current interest in the activities that produce them). But I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with them (okay, except for the sex).

[Metastachydium]

Everyone is obsessed with "immortality." All life on earth is motivated by the duel drives of survival and reproduction, which in humans have evolved into the more complex desire to survive long enough to leave a lasting legacy.

Sure, I want children. That's not an obsession, though.

At the end of the day, every sane, rational human being wants to either have a long life, or be remembered when their gone, with many wanting both

I could do without your questioning my sanity, thank you.
(And let's not even get started with how "rational" such desires are.)

[Rater202]

A healthy human is fine to go away eventually so there's still enough resources for the younger humans.

Resource scarcity is a myth: As technology improves, our ability to produce food, water, clothing, and shelter for the population increases at a rate that outstrips population growth, and technological improvement over a generation tend to be roughly twice the rate of the previous generation, meaning that the gap between resoruces produced and resources needed will keep getting wider. As it is, a good chunk of the food we grow ends up being thrown out.

Not to mention that as average life span and quality of life go up, rates of reproduction go down.

What you are presenting as an insurmountable problem is actually really easily fixed in the grand scheme of things.

[Anonymouswizard]

Resource scarcity is a myth: As technology improves, our ability to produce food, water, clothing, and shelter for the population increases at a rate that outstrips population growth, and technological improvement over a generation tend to be roughly twice the rate of the previous generation, meaning that the gap between resoruces produced and resources needed will keep getting wider. As it is, a good chunk of the food we grow ends up being thrown out.

That might be true now, but the majority of healthy human behaviours developed back in the days when most groups didn't have enough resources to develop technologically. At the end of the day modern Anonymouswizard is no different to prehistoric Anonymouswizard in mindset, but I have a lot more resources than they did.

[HalfTangible]

Everyone is obsessed with "immortality."

No.

I'm pretty sure far more people acknowledge that being obsessed with living forever is going to drive you to waste what precious time you have.

At the end of the day, every sane, rational human being wants to either have a long life, or be remembered when their gone, with many wanting both

Can't honestly say I care what "legacy" I leave behind, so long as it's not "I made the world worse by my very presence", something that doesn't require statues or history books. I want to write stories people enjoy. Sometimes I want to find a wife and have kids, but frankly A) usually don't want to B) no idea where to start with that anyway and C) I would value the companionship more than any kind of "legacy".

While I can't know your life and say definitively you've never come close to death, I know I have. It didn't make me want to live forever, it just put into focus that my time is limited. If I didn't have that limit I would doubtless be a lazy, worthless waste of space.

And sure, I would like a full 100 years, I don't want to die immediately after hitting "submit reply" to this post, and I would very much like to write books that people love. That doesn't translate to "I want to outlive the stars" which seems to be the only form of immortality you're allowing in your hypothetical scenarios.

[Beeftank]

Everyone


I've seen people go horribly and I've seen people go senselessly. I've seen strong evidence that legacy immortality is unreliable and the man who isn't afraid of growing ill or being riddled by disease or toxins is a fool.

So, I quite logically concluded that this whole death thing was complete bull**** and decided that if I could find a way to become genuine, perfect immortality, I'd take it.

And share it with as many people as possible. I'd be morally obligated to it for much the same reason that someone who discovered a cure for HIV would be obligated to share it.

Look dude, I get the appeal. I watched my grandmother die a slow death from Alzheimer’s, and I watched my grandfather slowly decline until his death years later. If I had the ability to bring them back and perfect health I would take it in a heartbeat.

But the immortality, true, everlasting, billions and trillions of years from now immortality is daunting. None of the stuff about dead relatives and the total BS of death changes that.

If immortality meant ai could live forever, not aging above 30 or so (still babyfaced at 26 unfortunately, so I’ll give myself a few more years of maturing) and spend forever hanging out with friends, watching football, reading, snowboarding ect, then yeah, I’d take it. But that isn’t want you are offering. The world will change and leave you behind, and mentally that will cause people a lot of anguish. Frankly, I think I could get past that, but eventually, billions of years in the future (you’re a immortal, gotta look long term) the planet is going to get vaporized by the sun, you will get sucked into a star and spend a eternity alone, hoping at some point in the endless future you land on a planet. To me that is worse than the oblivion that awaits people who shuffle off this mortal coil.

[Peelee]

Everyone is obsessed with "immortality."

Citation needed. And, even assuming you could supply one (you can't), that's moving the goalposts.

The only difference between say, a great artist and myself is that I want something more literal.

I consider myself a rampant egotist, and yet this is in the running for the most egotistical thing I think I've ever heard.

[Rater202]

While I can't know your life and say definitively you've never come close to death, I know I have.

Counting or not counting the times I was too young to realize what was going on?

Counting the things I was aware of in the moment, there was an incident in middle school where someone tried to push me down the stairs, the time some jackass in a diesel truck almost swerved right into the passenger side seat of my mom's itty bitty car(IE, where I was sitting) on the highway, the time I was hospitalized with a two-foot blood clot and suspected pulmonary embolisms.

If going back to things I only realized in hindsight but that haunt me now that I'm older, there was the time I tripped at the top of the stairs and went tumbling down the banister where, had I not landed on my mother who was sitting at the bottom, my skull would have been smashed on the wall, and the time I spent a week in the hospital with an oversized kidney stone when I was four.