OOTS #1252 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

V used prismatic spray on Sunny. One of the possible effects of prismatic spray is petrification, which as Sunny pointed out would have meant death at that height. Another one is just an instant death poison. So the Order was definitely prepared to kill during the first half of the encounter.

Well there you go, that settles that.

[Squire Doodad]

"Built to house some of the nastiest monsters in the world" is consistent with "also houses hordes of weaker monsters." If I were Roy, then I wouldn't assume that literally every monster in the dungeon is super tough. (I mean, what do those super tough monsters eat?)

I'm a bit confused about the premise of the question.
There have been fights where the Order has started out with lethal levels of force because, well, they're adventurers in a dungeon and lots of things are about to try and kill them. They're better than they were in the first few books, but they're still dungeon crawling in what is likely the strongest dungeon in the campaign.

As they knew they were being attacked by something drawing them away one by one, and also was strategically using anti-magic from a very powerful creature alongside something able to knock out Roy very easily, they were clearly not friendly.
They did not know it was "Sunny and Serini, who are likely to help if spared", they knew it was "high level eye monster+high level monster/other character" and as such, it makes sense they would retaliate with deadly force. It's like how Thog, who is scared of girls and teletubbies, is still indeed a threat if he is actively attacking the party.

There is the question of whether it is justifiable to attack what is possibly a child with Prismatic Ray at such height, but for the sake of this I would assume Sunny falls into the Thog or Elan category of "immature acting adult".

[Skull the Troll]

V used prismatic spray on Sunny. One of the possible effects of prismatic spray is petrification, which as Sunny pointed out would have meant death at that height. Another one is just an instant death poison. So the Order was definitely prepared to kill during the first half of the encounter.

Yup in the first half for sure, and they would have been morally justified in doing so. Once they realized who they were fighting they backed off to containment tactics.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yup in the first half for sure, and they would have been morally justified in doing so. Once they realized who they were fighting they backed off to containment tactics.

In fact, they only "stopped the lethal attacks" once they learned they were fighting Serini. They didn't have any problem on killing Sunny even if he/she was childish and obviously not deathly. There is still speciesism here.

[Thermophille]

In fact, they only "stopped the lethal attacks" once they learned they were fighting Serini. They didn't have any problem on killing Sunny even if he/she was childish and obviously not deathly. There is still speciesism here.

Nah, they would have responded the same way to Thog, or any other cheerful hostile. They're not speciesists, they're gate guardianists.

[pendell]

I'm a bit confused about the premise of the question.
There have been fights where the Order has started out with lethal levels of force because, well, they're adventurers in a dungeon and lots of things are about to try and kill them. They're better than they were in the first few books, but they're still dungeon crawling in what is likely the strongest dungeon in the campaign.

As they knew they were being attacked by something drawing them away one by one, and also was strategically using anti-magic from a very powerful creature alongside something able to knock out Roy very easily, they were clearly not friendly.
They did not know it was "Sunny and Serini, who are likely to help if spared", they knew it was "high level eye monster+high level monster/other character" and as such, it makes sense they would retaliate with deadly force. It's like how Thog, who is scared of girls and teletubbies, is still indeed a threat if he is actively attacking the party.

There is the question of whether it is justifiable to attack what is possibly a child with Prismatic Ray at such height, but for the sake of this I would assume Sunny falls into the Thog or Elan category of "immature acting adult".

I'm not sure whether Serini is a child has anything to do with it. The question is, does Serini represent a credible threat of deadly force, regardless of age?

In the real world, police officers don't normally shoot children. But if that child picks up an adult's gun they are definitely going to start getting tense. Doesn't matter if the gun is loaded or not or if the safety's on. The officers have no reasonable way of knowing that. If the kid doesn't listen to the people shouting at him/her to put the gun down NOW, and continues waving it around, there's a real possibility something terrible will happen.

In Sunny's case, the "gun" is built directly into Sunny's body. When the Order first encounters Sunny, they know Sunny has the potential ability to kill them all and use of lethal force in self-defense is reasonable. Even once they've confirmed Sunny is not interested in a lethal confrontation there is still some real risk in climbing down ; just because Sunny doesn't want to kill anyone doesn't mean Sunny won't, especially if something happens to "mom" or they say the wrong thing at the wrong time.

I'm glad the encounter ended with no casualties and on friendly terms. But it's not wrong of the order to defend themselves from what a reasonable observer would consider lethal force with lethal force, whether that is a many-eyed being or a human soldier or a ten-year-old goblin child carrying a wand of disintegration and a grudge.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Vikenlugaid]

Nah, they would have responded the same way to Thog, or any other cheerful hostile. They're not speciesists, they're gate guardianists.

Are you comparing Thog with Sunny? They are both childish but Thog is clearly deathly and Sunny is the contrary. Thog wouldn't have stopped the 8 ray.

Do you think thet would have reacted like that vs Elan (if they didn't know him)? I doubt so.

[Metastachydium]

Are you comparing Thog with Sunny? They are both childish but Thog is clearly deathly and Sunny is the contrary. Thog wouldn't have stopped the 8 ray.

Technically, no member of the Order dealt so much as a single point of damage to Sunny after the no. 8 comment, nor did they try to do so.

Do you think thet would have reacted like that vs Elan (if they didn't know him)? I doubt so.

[Devious grin.]

Spoiler: Origin, p. no. 23

Show

"Don't break the Paladin Code by strangling Elan, don't break the Paladin Code by strangling Elan, don't break the Paladin Code by strangling Elan…"

[littlebum2002]

Are you comparing Thog with Sunny? They are both childish but Thog is clearly deathly and Sunny is the contrary. Thog wouldn't have stopped the 8 ray.

Do you think thet would have reacted like that vs Elan (if they didn't know him)? I doubt so.

There's a quote for that:

What I found odd was that people tried to claim that he was not Evil because he was lovable. I don't understand that. I've never understood the need of some people to rationalize that a character they like is somehow less Evil just because they like them. Thog is Evil; Thog is lovable. Those two facts do not need to be in opposition. I don't understand treating his lovability as overriding his Evilness, nor his Evilness overriding his lovability. Because he's a fictional character and it's not necessary that we pass a binding absolute judgment on how we feel about him. We can simultaneously appreciate his comedy in this corner of our brain while condemning his evil in that corner.

Apparently, though, that's not how some people see it, and that's what continues to baffle me. I don't see how one could appreciate fiction on any serious level if every character has to boil down to a single LOVE/HATE toggle switch.

[Thermophille]

Are you comparing Thog with Sunny? They are both childish but Thog is clearly deathly and Sunny is the contrary. Thog wouldn't have stopped the 8 ray.

Do you think thet would have reacted like that vs Elan (if they didn't know him)? I doubt so.

Yes I am. I'd have the same reaction to a half-orc berzerker killing my friends and singing about puppies as I would to a cheerful beholder with his mom petrifying and poisoning my friends.

In the latter case, Sunny didn't want to kill anyone, but if I had ever met Thog in my life, I would never take cheerfulness as a sign of non-aggression.

As for Elan, if a constantly punning swordsman were added to the list, I don't see how someone's reaction would be any different than to Thog, assuming the level of aggression was the same, which is something I find hard to picture. If Elan were to attack someone, they would either already know who he is, or would get a heroic quip about why he's attacking. Probably both.

[Liquor Box]

In fact, they only "stopped the lethal attacks" once they learned they were fighting Serini. They didn't have any problem on killing Sunny even if he/she was childish and obviously not deathly. There is still speciesism here.

They didn't try to kill either after realising who they were. The main reason for that was because Serini and Sunny were no longer attacking them - Serini was trying to escape, and Sunny was mostly just observing.

If Serini had resumed her attacks after getting away from Hayley, instead of running away, it would have been interesting to see what the Order would have done. It probably depended on how dangerous they thought she was (probably not very unless Sunny also started attacking again). They obviously see some value in capturing her because they think she might have plot relevant information they need to pump out of her, but they would have had to weight that against the risk.

But no apparent speciesism.

[Peelee]

Well there you go, that settles that.

Does it, though? We know that just because someone says something does not make it true (characters can be mistaken), and we also know that a flesh-to-stone person falling from a great height does not, in fact, shatter. Going by the damae dealt to Elan and the lack of damage dealt to Haley and Serini (Rogues may have many damage evading abilities, but none of them help with fall damage), it would certainly seem as if Stone Haley fell from higher than hypothetical Stone Haley would have

[pyrefiend]

V used prismatic spray on Sunny. One of the possible effects of prismatic spray is petrification, which as Sunny pointed out would have meant death at that height. Another one is just an instant death poison. So the Order was definitely prepared to kill during the first half of the encounter.

Well there you go, that settles that.

Does it, though? We know that just because someone says something does not make it true (characters can be mistaken), and we also know that a flesh-to-stone person falling from a great height does not, in fact, shatter. Going by the damae dealt to Elan and the lack of damage dealt to Haley and Serini (Rogues may have many damage evading abilities, but none of them help with fall damage), it would certainly seem as if Stone Haley fell from higher than hypothetical Stone Haley would have.

What about the instant death poison?

[Peelee]

What about the instant death poison?

What about an instant death poison?

[pyrefiend]

What about an instant death poison?

The one mentioned in the conversation quoted above

[Liquor Box]

Does it, though? We know that just because someone says something does not make it true (characters can be mistaken), and we also know that a flesh-to-stone person falling from a great height does not, in fact, shatter. Going by the damae dealt to Elan and the lack of damage dealt to Haley and Serini (Rogues may have many damage evading abilities, but none of them help with fall damage), it would certainly seem as if Stone Haley fell from higher than hypothetical Stone Haley would have

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html
It did seem that they had Hayley land on the lawyers for exactly that reason - to break her fall.

Serini and Sunny both seemed to think that falling from that height while stone was at least a risk of breaking Hayley. And given the comic hasn't presented a contrary viewpoint of the circumstance - that would seem to be the viewpoint the comic wanted to present. We cannot guarantee that V thought a fall from that height would break someone stoned, but my read of the comic is that that is what would happen. Once you start getting into "the characters were wrong" territory it seems to me that there's not very much that happened that we can claim to know.

As pyrofiend says, there is also the point about that V's attack included an instant death poision effect, which could have killed outright (per hungrycrow's post).

Is there any reason to think the Order were trying to avoid killing their attackers?

[Peelee]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html
It did seem that they had Hayley land on the lawyers for exactly that reason - to break her fall.

Fortunately, you provided another example of a petrified person falling from on high and not breaking. I would say that two separate examples of this not happening probably trump what two people think may happen.

As pyrofiend says, there is also the point about that V's attack included an instant death poision effect, which could have killed outright (per hungrycrow's post).

The one mentioned in the conversation quoted above

That's fair.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yes I am. I'd have the same reaction to a half-orc berzerker killing my friends and singing about puppies as I would to a cheerful beholder with his mom petrifying and poisoning my friends.

In the latter case, Sunny didn't want to kill anyone, but if I had ever met Thog in my life, I would never take cheerfulness as a sign of non-aggression.

As for Elan, if a constantly punning swordsman were added to the list, I don't see how someone's reaction would be any different than to Thog, assuming the level of aggression was the same, which is something I find hard to picture. If Elan were to attack someone, they would either already know who he is, or would get a heroic quip about why he's attacking. Probably both.

Really? None of them (with Elan's exception, bit that was a trick) talked to Sunny at all at least to ask why he/she was attacking them while he/she was so friendly at the same time. In Durkon's case that is really bad, cause he "blamed" Roy for never talking to a goblin attacking, and now he is 100% "kill first, ask later" with a monster. Not a good direction if he wants to deal properly with Redcloak.

[Thermophille]

Really? None of them (with Elan's exception, bit that was a trick) talked to Sunny at all at least to ask why he/she was attacking them while he/she was so friendly at the same time. In Durkon's case that is really bad, cause he "blamed" Roy for never talking to a goblin attacking, and now he is 100% "kill first, ask later" with a monster. Not a good direction if he wants to deal properly with Redcloak.

That might be exactly why The Giant decided to take Roy out of commission in the first round of combat. Of course, there's a big difference between fighting dozens of encounters against an enemy and never trying diplomacy, and defending yourself from a killbox. They knew for a fact that this was a very cunning opponent, and had good reason to believe that they were wanted dead, since they had no reason someone would want them defeated but alive.

[Skull the Troll]

Really? None of them (with Elan's exception, bit that was a trick) talked to Sunny at all at least to ask why he/she was attacking them while he/she was so friendly at the same time. In Durkon's case that is really bad, cause he "blamed" Roy for never talking to a goblin attacking, and now he is 100% "kill first, ask later" with a monster. Not a good direction if he wants to deal properly with Redcloak.

I think you're falling into the trap of assuming the characters know what the readers know. Most of the party was blind. As soon as they can see they see something that looks horrific. Their leader is down (dead? they dont know.) They have experience with things that sound cute actually being really dangerous. Now that I type that I wonder if he even sounds cute. What does a beholder voice sound like? I'm betting its not "cute." Their actions are more than reasonable.

[hungrycrow]

I wouldn't have assumed Sunny was benevolent until they started explicitly mentioning not wanting to hurt people. Even if the Order noticed that all the attacks were nonlethal, that could have just meant their attackers wanted to torture and kill them later.

Clearly Haley and the others don't assume badly of Sunny once they learn what's going on, otherwise they wouldn't have left half the party behind at Sunny's mercy.

[Vikenlugaid]

I think you're falling into the trap of assuming the characters know what the readers know. Most of the party was blind. As soon as they can see they see something that looks horrific. Their leader is down (dead? they dont know.) They have experience with things that sound cute actually being really dangerous. Now that I type that I wonder if he even sounds cute. What does a beholder voice sound like? I'm betting its not "cute." Their actions are more than reasonable.

So you are saying they wouldn't have reacted the same way vs a human then, that's my point.

They can talk while fighting, everybody can. They just didn't try.

[Liquor Box]

So you are saying they wouldn't have reacted the same way vs a human then, that's my point.

They can talk while fighting, everybody can. They just didn't try.

Why and how do you think they'd act differently with a human?

They were attacked and responded in kind, just like they would (and have) against humans.

[Peelee]

So you are saying they wouldn't have reacted the same way vs a human then, that's my point.

They can talk while fighting, everybody can. They just didn't try.

Liquor Box said almost everything I wanted to, except one thing: what error they have said? They don't know who or what is attacking them, they know it's hostile, intelligent, cunning and effective - at least, enough to get them to sitting the trap they stepped into. Are they supposed to just yell out "who are you? What are you doing?" to the entity trying to take them out and just hope against hope that they turn out nice enough to chat?

[KorvinStarmast]

But no apparent speciesism.

It was a considerable reach for that to have been asserted, yes.

Most of the party was blind. As soon as they can see they see something that looks horrific. Their leader is down (dead? they dont know...Their actions are more than reasonable.

Of course they are, not to mention an invisible attacker was shooting poisoned bolts at them.

Are they supposed to just yell out "who are you? What are you doing?" to the entity trying to take them out and just hope against hope that they turn out nice enough to chat?

An unreasonable expectation to be sure.
I am reminded of an old saw about "good =/= stupid' that may need trotting out here.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Are they supposed to just yell out "who are you? What are you doing?" to the entity trying to take them out and just hope against hope that they turn out nice enough to chat?

I'd like to note on top of what you said that Roy did try that ("Whoever you are, you might as well come out and talk") and was promptly poisoned for his efforts.

[Thermophille]

On another note, has anyone noticed how Roy looks pretty uncomfortable with this situation?

[hungrycrow]

On another note, has anyone noticed how Roy looks pretty uncomfortable with this situation?

He looks more confused to me, which makes sense since he was out for the whole fight. I doubt Elan and Sunny gave a very good explanation of the situation.

[Peelee]

I'd like to note on top of what you said that Roy did try that ("Whoever you are, you might as well come out and talk") and was promptly poisoned for his efforts.

Ha! Excellent addendum!

[Thermophille]

He looks more confused to me, which makes sense since he was out for the whole fight. I doubt Elan and Sunny gave a very good explanation of the situation.

Yeah, that's probably a better read of his face.