OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread

[Particle_Man]

I guess golem makes more sense than undead anyhow, if it is Bozzok behind this. Bozzok is smart enough to know (via Haley's treacherous uncle, if nothing else) that Haley is travelling with a high level cleric now, which pretty much can neutralize any undead threat that Bozzok can afford to have created.

[Particle_Man]

Haley definitely killed more than six members of the rogue's guild.

And Bozzok might decide that it is more cost-efficient to make a cadaver golem than to raise 6 guild members.

[Canisius]

Gah! Someone in the discussion thread from the previous comic had ID'd what Crystal is, and since I don't speak native D&D I can't remember what it was. But it fits perfectly with the DR and slam attacks. Now I'm gonna have to pour through that discussion to satisfy my curiosity. I'm pretty sure whoever it was nailed it.

Okay, never mind. I was thinking Mohrg, but they're undead. But - is there such an enchantment as "protection from good?"

[Keltest]

Okay, never mind. I was thinking Mohrg, but they're undead. But - is there such an enchantment as "protection from good?"

Yes, there is a protection spell from every alignment I believe.

[Giggling Ghast]

And Bozzok might decide that it is more cost-efficient to make a cadaver golem than to raise 6 guild members.

Also more effective, as a single golem is better against a rogue than a handful of low-level mooks.

[SoC175]

2) It may be cheaper to make a flesh golem than it is to pay the diamonds for raise dead, plus flesh golem Crystal is a more dangerous enemy than living Crystal was, especially if Bozzak has a deal with whomever is running the show now that Grubbwiggler is dead ..

Making a flesh golem is much more expensive than a raise dead. It's even more expensive than a ressurection

[happycrow]

I'd ask why, precisely, V needs to be "nailed down". Non-binary people exist.

Should try not to make assumptions -- I'm old as dirt and a long-time Ally: have been since the days when that meant a strong likelihood of getting the crap kicked out of you. That said, the answer is: because I was curious. And that's all the answer that should ever be required. Nobody should ever require another person's approval in order to exercise their curiosity.

But to give the question more respect than it's due, I'm an archaelogist and historian and issues of artistic representation interest me. I looked into it primarily because of the curved-vs-lego-butt observation made previously. I was curious regarding the Giant's artistic style when it comes to both representing elves, and whether anything could be read into, say, V line vs. scoop neck for tunics. I find the notion of stick-figuring (as done here, on XKCD, and other places), really interesting, and have been looking to develop my own style of doing so which would be flexible enough to be viable, but also personal enough not to simply be cribbing another person's work.

[happycrow]

Making a flesh golem is much more expensive than a raise dead. It's even more expensive than a ressurection

HOWEVER, there's an angle within our typical wild-ass speculation that works here -- if Haley double-crossed the Guild, then she gets no credit for taking care of the renegade Loki figure, and the Grubwiggler issue remains a reputational problem. However, the Guild could approach the Loki clerics and pin Haley's behavior as having worked with the renegade Loki priest, saying "this is on you -- fix it." Grubwiggler's back in action and now owes the Guild a favor.

No more likely than any other option, and I'm always wrong about these things. But there are plenty of angles besides coin.

Edit: hrm. In retrospect, my crackpot theory makes less sense than usual. But essentially, the Church of Loki, Grubwiggler, and the Guild can all arguably be said to have gotten played by Haley. Some sort of mutual cooperation on that front seems plausible.

[SpacemanSpif]

Not true, actually, he makes mention of casting spells a couple of times times (strips 575, panel 5 and 576, panel 4), not to mention his process requires at least eleven secret herbs and reagents (also 576, panel 4). It's possible that Giro (the assistant) knows what goes in these formulas, but unless he's got that knowledge (or a sample of one of the formulas), and enough levels in whatever spellcasting class Grubwiggler uses to cast the appropriate spells? We'd need Grubwiggler himself to operate it.

Making a bone golem out of Roy's corpse involved casting spells, but that also involved animating the golem with and earth elemental spirit bound to Grubwiggler's control. Since Crystal's memories and opinions seem to be there in some form, it's possible that the spellcasting step would be unnecessary.

[allenw]

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Not seeing the Newspeakiness.
One quote was about a bisexual character (Haley).
One quote was about a gay character (Bandana).
In English, while some may refer to a bisexual person as "gay" in informal discussion, in the context of a discussion of inclusiveness and/or of a person's specific sexual preferences, the two terms are not synonyms.

That being said, the above is evidence (if anyone was wondering) that Rich considers Bandana to be gay, not bi.

[asorel]

There are other reasons it's important, but this one is good too.

I would argue that this is likely the most important reason in-universe. As near as I can tell, the other reasons revolve around the pervasiveness and acceptability of bisexuality and similar phenomena within entertainment and societies as a whole. Things that are not unimportant in and of themselves, but of little relevance to the storyline. It ultimately comes down to how detached from reality a given viewer sees the comic. Art will always imitate life to a greater or lesser extent, but not everything is a political commentary on current events or issues.

As for my opinions on the matter (because someone obviously must have asked), it's good to see homosexual and bisexual characters portrayed in media of entertainment. That being said, I'm not a fan of authors introducing a character of a particular demographic entirely for the purpose of having that demographic represented, but (to me) it doesn't look like that that is what The Giant has done here.

[SoC175]

Making a bone golem out of Roy's corpse involved casting spells, but that also involved animating the golem with and earth elemental spirit bound to Grubwiggler's control. Since Crystal's memories and opinions seem to be there in some form, it's possible that the spellcasting step would be unnecessary.

Actually I would say that it makes it even more necessary. You're not only getting the body back up, but also getting the soul back from death

[allenw]

Actually I would say that it makes it even more necessary. You're not only getting the body back up, but also getting the soul back from death

Not necessarily. "Speak with Dead," for example, explicitly doesn't contact the soul, just "impressions" left in the body.

[Keltest]

Not necessarily. "Speak with Dead," for example, explicitly doesn't contact the soul, just "impressions" left in the body.

Um... Ok. Speak with Dead is still a spell.

Edit: Unless you mean you aren't necessarily getting the soul back, in which case carry on.

[Liliet]

Not seeing the Newspeakiness.
One quote was about a bisexual character (Haley).
One quote was about a gay character (Bandana).
In English, while some may refer to a bisexual person as "gay" in informal discussion, in the context of a discussion of inclusiveness and/or of a person's specific sexual preferences, the two terms are not synonyms.

That being said, the above is evidence (if anyone was wondering) that Rich considers Bandana to be gay, not bi.

Sometimes "gay" is used as a synonym to queer, at least in the tumblr queer community. I have seen asexual people refer to themselves as "hella gay", just as an antonym to "straight".

I would argue that this is likely the most important reason in-universe. As near as I can tell, the other reasons revolve around the pervasiveness and acceptability of bisexuality and similar phenomena within entertainment and societies as a whole. Things that are not unimportant in and of themselves, but of little relevance to the storyline. It ultimately comes down to how detached from reality a given viewer sees the comic. Art will always imitate life to a greater or lesser extent, but not everything is a political commentary on current events or issues.

As for my opinions on the matter (because someone obviously must have asked), it's good to see homosexual and bisexual characters portrayed in media of entertainment. That being said, I'm not a fan of authors introducing a character of a particular demographic entirely for the purpose of having that demographic represented, but (to me) it doesn't look like that that is what The Giant has done here.

You might be thinking about /adding/ unimportant characters to serves as token minority, which really is a thing to not be a fan of. There's nothing wrong with just making characters with different sexualities, genders, ethnicities, skin color, hair color, etc for no other reason that that's how different they are in real life and you want your work to reflect it much the same way as you'd prefer it to reflect the rules of perspective of human visual perception, anatomical principles etc. There is some baseline level of realism that even the most fantastical works need to meet in order to have some relevance to the viewer.

[asorel]

You might be thinking about /adding/ unimportant characters to serves as token minority, which really is a thing to not be a fan of. There's nothing wrong with just making characters with different sexualities, genders, ethnicities, skin color, hair color, etc for no other reason that that's how different they are in real life and you want your work to reflect it much the same way as you'd prefer it to reflect the rules of perspective of human visual perception, anatomical principles etc. There is some baseline level of realism that even the most fantastical works need to meet in order to have some relevance to the viewer.

This is almost exactly what I meant, though I wasn't referring only to minor characters. One thing I have also seen happen occasionally, though I can't speak for how common it is, is suddenly establishing some for of queerness to pay some form of lip service to equality. In a recent book that I read, one of the chapters established one of the characters as being homosexual. This fact wasn't referenced at all outside of this chapter, and it did nothing to add to the depth of the character. It's not exactly a token character, as the reveal took place in the back half of the book, and wasn't touched upon, but an author attempting to shoehorn social justice into an art piece in this fashion is not something I appreciate (As mentioned before, I'm not implying that this is what is happening in OotS).

[Svata]

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Um, I think you're missing the context clue in the phrase "an obviously gay character". Also bi!=gay.

[Liliet]

This is almost exactly what I meant, though I wasn't referring only to minor characters. One thing I have also seen happen occasionally, though I can't speak for how common it is, is suddenly establishing some for of queerness to pay some form of lip service to equality. In a recent book that I read, one of the chapters established one of the characters as being homosexual. This fact wasn't referenced at all outside of this chapter, and it did nothing to add to the depth of the character. It's not exactly a token character, as the reveal took place in the back half of the book, and wasn't touched upon, but an author attempting to shoehorn social justice into an art piece in this fashion is not something I appreciate (As mentioned before, I'm not implying that this is what is happening in OotS).

What exactly does being one or the other sexual orientation have to add to the depth of the character? Why can't mogai people simply /be/? Just exist? Sort of like how Roy's skin color has no relevance to his character anywhere, at all. Do you view his, Durkon's, Sabine's appearance as "shoehorning social justice"?

(it also evades me just what exactly is wrong with putting justice in places it didn't used to be btw)

This is probably getting off-topic and we should probably continue this in private messages, though.

[Bulldog Psion]

After previous threads, seeing the word "relevance," which was repeated in them to the point of inducing madness, is enough to get me ready to break out my ego whip and id insinuation ...

[Doug Lampert]

It is quite possible that Starmetal can defeat Adamant DR. The fact Roy's sword could destroy Girard's Gate is a possible hint.

It's largely irrelevant. The easiest way to deal with DR X/obscure material is to take a magical two handed weapon, belt of giant strength, and power attack for 10 or so and blow right through the DR.

Thog power attack for 1d12+567 damage makes 5-15 DR look pretty minor by comparison.

[Emperordaniel]

After previous threads, seeing the word "relevance," which was repeated in them to the point of inducing madness, is enough to get me ready to break out my ego whip and id insinuation ...

Are you sure this has relevance to the current discussion?

[Tvtyrant]

It's largely irrelevant. The easiest way to deal with DR X/obscure material is to take a magical two handed weapon, belt of giant strength, and power attack for 10 or so and blow right through the DR.

Thog power attack for 1d12+567 damage makes 5-15 DR look pretty minor by comparison.

Is Thog supposed to be charging in that picture???

[Keltest]

Is Thog supposed to be charging in that picture???

Thog is about to divide that poor human person in two with one strike.

[eilandesq]

We might be eliminating revenant a bit hastily here--this is from the classic D&D description that originally appeared in the Fiend Folio:

http://www.padnd.com/monster_manual/mm00250.php

Although it is undead, the revenant is motivated entirely by self-will. Therefore, as it is not inherently evil, it is not affected by holy water, holy/unholy symbols, or other religious paraphernalia. It cannot be turned by priests nor can it be raised or resurrected.

Bandana has no way of knowing this unless she's heard of revenants, so the fact that she views the holy water test as definitive doesn't mean much. Also:

The revenant's body does decay, though at a slower rate than normal. Within three to six months, the corpse decomposes rapidly and the revenant's spirit returns to the plane from which it came.

Which is consistent with Haley's reaction to the smell.

[The Giant]

Yes to all of this. [...] Haley is bisexual. [And has always been bisexual.]

If it's "forced" now, that's only because I failed to include any obviously gay characters for 900+ strips and that is so completely uncool that I need to fix it NOW, not later.

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Cute, but those quotes don't contradict one another at all, for three reasons:

1.) Because "gay" does not mean "bi." It can include bi, in some uses, but it is not necessarily inclusive of the whole LGBTAI+ universe. It is entirely appropriate to use the word "gay" to exclusively refer to solely homosexual characters, which is what I was doing in the second (older) quote. Bandana is gay; Haley is not.

2.) And it should have been obvious that I was using the word in that manner, because the comic has had an openly bisexual character for a long time—Sabine. One can argue whether or not she's an especially positive portrayal, but she's definitely there.

3.) Because even if you choose to deliberately ignore the two above points, the context of that conversation included the idea put forth by many people that Haley wasn't obviously bisexual—that the clues from the comic were ambiguous, that it could mean anything, that it wasn't representy enough to count as representation. There were people saying that exact thing on this very thread! So my statement was intended to include the idea that while I may have put a bisexual character into the comic, I did not do so in a way that was obvious to everyone, and that is part of what I was fixing.

Rich, is it okay if I ask you how you gained your - for lack of a better word - proficiency in talking about and tackling the subject of marginalised groups? Most people don't just stumble on something social justice-ey and keep reading, not with the kind of ingrained bias we're all brought up with, and a lot of people in your position - men with a runaway successful project in a male-oriented genre - tend to get blinded by hubris and become resistant to any and all criticism, never mind that on the subject of representation.

I don't think I have any special proficiency in tackling this, but I also think that you have it a bit backwards (or sideways, at least). Being a successful man in a historically male-oriented genre is what gives me the freedom to tackle an issue like representation. It's why anyone is listening in the first place, sadly. If I was not a man, people wouldn't believe me; if I was unsuccessful, they wouldn't care; and if I was pursuing a more traditionally woman- or LGBT-friendly genre, I would be preaching to the choir.

But I'm in the unique position of having an audience comprised of a large percentage of people that may be somewhat unaccustomed to this message at the exact time in history when there are also enough people who already support the message to cushion any financial fallout from speaking my mind. I can afford to lose the readers who would ragequit over it, to be blunt, and better to lose them because of something I really believe in than because of my crappy update frequency. Frankly, I'll never notice the difference between a lost reader because I included queer representation and a lost reader because I didn't deliver their calendar on time, so why not say what needs to be said? Plus, I mean, people totally lost their **** when I suggested maybe we shouldn't have stats for baby dragons in the Monster Manual, and this is way more important an issue than that.

Basically, I have the social privilege that allows me to be heard and now I have the commercial success to weather the consequences thereof, so therefore I have a responsibility to say something. To do otherwise would be self-serving cowardice.

[The Giant]

We might be eliminating revenant a bit hastily here--this is from the classic D&D description that originally appeared in the Fiend Folio:

http://www.padnd.com/monster_manual/mm00250.php

Although it is undead, the revenant is motivated entirely by self-will. Therefore, as it is not inherently evil, it is not affected by holy water, holy/unholy symbols, or other religious paraphernalia. It cannot be turned by priests nor can it be raised or resurrected.

Bandana has no way of knowing this unless she's heard of revenants, so the fact that she views the holy water test as definitive doesn't mean much. Also:

The revenant's body does decay, though at a slower rate than normal. Within three to six months, the corpse decomposes rapidly and the revenant's spirit returns to the plane from which it came.

Which is consistent with Haley's reaction to the smell.

It's not a revenant. It's a flesh golem. Give it up already.

[Lauren]

So, because no one can ever accept anything that is heavily implied or alluded to in the comic and only me stating it outright here on the message board ever seems to matter: Haley is bisexual. Quick, run off to the index thread to catalog it for academic posterity!

I had always read her as bisexual, regardless of the erasure on the forums, and I am bi myself, so I am profoundly glad that you have stated it outright. Thank you for this representation.

I also want to thank Liliet for her posts in this thread. I hope people who didn't already know how bad biphobia and bi erasure can get have an idea of it now.

[eilandesq]

It's not a revenant. It's a flesh golem. Give it up already.

OK--wasn't sure you meant it to be definitive, but I'm certainly willing to accept Word Of Giant. :-)

[DaggerPen]

1. I love The Giant.
2. I tend to avoid using "gay" to describe same-gender attraction unless the person in question is exclusively attracted to the same gender for this exact reason. I know not everyone is comfortable reclaiming "queer," but this type of semantics crap is confusing at best and outright bi erasure at worst. I'm not gay, I'm bi.
3. Before I read through this whole debacle of a debate, I did want to comment on how I thought Haley openly referring to her attraction to women showed some nice character growth compared to her earlier "EVERYTHING IS A SECRET" issues, and I'm pleased to see it confirmed that it was indeed an example of that. We need subtle little moments like that mixed in with the more obvious character growth moments. Belkar worrying over Bloodfeast. Haley casually referring to something she'd kept a closely guarded secret. Vaarsuvius taking a more active voice after returning from Hell to save the Order. Change is a series of little moments as much as it is big, dramatic events.
4. Flesh golem, huh? I had thought the Revenant theorists were onto something, but obviously not so much. I wonder if we'll get more detail as to why she seems to have retained a sense of self, or if we're just gonna leave it at "homebrewed"? I'm fine either way, just curious if there might be any plot relevance to the "why" beyond "it makes for better drama."
5. I laughed entirely too hard at "she's obviously a crystal golem," so cookies for you lot.

[Bird]

I don't think I have any special proficiency in tackling this, but I also think that you have it a bit backwards (or sideways, at least). Being a successful man in a historically male-oriented genre is what gives me the freedom to tackle an issue like representation. It's why anyone is listening in the first place, sadly. If I was not a man, people wouldn't believe me; if I was unsuccessful, they wouldn't care; and if I was pursuing a more traditionally woman- or LGBT-friendly genre, I would be preaching to the choir.

I quite adore this post, and appreciate your attitude & recognition of privilege. We all need more of this in the world. All art is political--it's just that when someone creates normative-oriented stuff, the politics get ignored by most of the population. Many creators with a lot of privilege ignore the fact that they're benefiting from that privilege, and that their art carries tacit politics whether they intend to address issues of representation of not.

Thinking about the section of the post I've quoted--while I agree that the benefits of privilege are sizable & must be recognized, there's no way of knowing what would have happened if you'd been (for instance) a woman, and created something like OotS. I'm heartened that folks like Kate Beaton and Anita Sarkeesian are also able to find success (though the latter is a strong example of just how much venom a woman may have to put up with for things a man could say with much less personal risk).