Those horrible adventurers! (#628)

[mcv]

His skin made into armor for the party leader to wear.

Has it ever occurred to you what horrible, inhuman monsters adventurers really are?

Slaughtering someone's kid is bad, but this one takes the cake.

[whitelaughter]

About the same as people who make shoes out of leather?

It's creepy, especially when dealing with a sentient creature, but if you are prepared to kill to eat, then killing for armour (another basic necessity in a D&D world) isn't a big step.

No, what's really disturbing is when a party thinks of putting a ring of regeneration on a captured dragon....

[Tempest Fennac]

If someone did that in my games, I'd be tempted to have several relatives of the captured dragon find them. Sadly, that's just how this sort of game works, mcv. I guess the main reason so many mosters are listed as usually or often evil is because it allows players to justify what they do toa certain degree.

[factotum]

About the same as people who make shoes out of leather?

As you kind of allude to, there is a significant difference between a cow or other unintelligent being, and a dragon, who is clearly intelligent. You might as well say that someone who kills a deer or a cow is as guilty of murder as someone who kills their next door neighbour, and while I realise some of the more militant vegetarians may consider that to be the case, I don't think the majority of the population do!

[RMS Oceanic]

The funny thing is there's a Prestige Class in Book of Exalted Deeds that revolves around you making armor out of a Red Dragon's scales. And Bahamut come along every now and then and gives you money for doing this.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding intelligence, I tend to agree with a researcher named Temple Grandin who came to the conclusion that different animals are intelligent in different ways (I read her books due to the both of us having autism, and I have an interest in animal communication, as my sig suggests*). The alignment sstem never made sense to me as far as things being listed as "always whatever" went, so I'd be tempted to ignore it as far as this sort of thing goes (I see BoED as being a poorly thought out book from a fluff perspective).

*Thinking in Pictures and Animals in Translation are both solely concerned with down-to-earth scientific research into how animals behave.

[King of Nowhere]

The alignment sstem never made sense to me as far as things being listed as "always whatever" went, so I'd be tempted to ignore it as far as this sort of thing goes (I see BoED as being a poorly thought out book from a fluff perspective).

Totally seconded.
Anyway, we should see how the fight with that dragon started. It is possible that it was the dragon's fault, so after killing him in self defense it would not be a problem to use his skin to make and armor.
However, often adventurers use "evilness" as an excuse to kill sentient creatures and make a profit from it. The manuals listed the creatures as evil so that players could feel justified in that, and used the lamest possible interpretation of evilness, like "they're evil for the sake of it, they love to kill and enslave and they're all equal so you will be unburdened by any moral decision when you come to their village and slain them all for 2d6 copper pieces and 7 XP each".
Luckily, there's plenty of people that refuse to play DnD that way.

[whitelaughter]

As you kind of allude to, there is a significant difference between a cow or other unintelligent being, and a dragon, who is clearly intelligent.

True; however a cow is both more closely related to humans, and far less likely to descend on a human town and devour the population.

And intelligence as a judge of value causes all sorts of problems when dealing with the mentally disabled!

[kamikasei]

Killing an intelligent creature in order to make use of its body parts is evil. (Of course there are ways to mitigate this, say if you don't just want the body part for itself but need it for some good end - e.g. the way to banish the rampaging demon is to burn the heart of the evil wizard who summoned it in a hallowed brazier).

Using the body parts of an intelligent creature which you have killed for some unrelated reason isn't evil, it's just somewhere on the creepy-weird-disgusting spectrum. The question of whether metallic dragons abhor the use of armor made from chromatic dragons, or for that matter whether chromatic dragons care about it in general rather than when it's their friends or family who donated, is an open question in the standard game world - in other words, up to the DM to decide for his settings/dragons.

[Nenec]

Poor dragoness, my heart really went with her...can't a baby dragon play joyfully in his cave without some adventurers going there to kill him so they can steal his toys?

[Snake-Aes]

As you kind of allude to, there is a significant difference between a cow or other unintelligent being, and a dragon, who is clearly intelligent. You might as well say that someone who kills a deer or a cow is as guilty of murder as someone who kills their next door neighbour, and while I realise some of the more militant vegetarians may consider that to be the case, I don't think the majority of the population do!

that's exactly it. Our beliefs on the whole killing thing are different than those of the people in that world.
It's not fine for us to torture someone. It was about 120 years ago.
(and sometimes it was/is done even though it wasn't a good idea to expose it to the public)
A good example is how paladins, the epitome of good, are completely fine slaughtering evil beings. No one's saying it's fair or that it isn't cruel for the family, but it's still done.

Myself? I never gave my group a lot of moral implications upon that. Instead I make them pay where it hurts them: their feeling of invulnerability. Killing intelligent beings means potential of having intelligent vengeful associates.

[Snake-Aes]

Poor dragoness, my heart really went with her...can't a baby dragon play joyfully in his cave without some adventurers going there to kill him so they can steal his toys?

That dragon was no baby :p

[Surfing HalfOrc]

This "Oh, that poor dragon" thing only works as long as you don't consider what dragons do... They hunt and kill and take.

That dragon hoard? Not earned by selling magazine subscriptions door to door.
That dragon size? Built on delicious sheep, shepherds, village guards, villagers, travelers, and stray cattle.

Dragons have what they have, because they go out and get it for themselves. Usually death and bloodshed is involved. Teen dragon may have spent a few weeks with his playdrakes and hand lotions, but once he got hungry, he didn't fry up a nice tofu burger and some watercress... He went out, found something living, and made it into a snack. Then he repeated the process until he was ready to head back to the cave. And if any of his meals had any spare chane on them, he dropped it off on the hoard to keep the rest of it company.

And momma? She was out doing the same thing. Killing, eating, taking.

It's a dragon eats peasant world, and all you can hope for is a pair of advenurer underwear!

[Janmorel]

...can't a baby dragon play joyfully in his cave without some adventurers going there to kill him so they can steal his toys?

If they stole his toys, I'm going to be very disturbed. Hopefully they just stole the hoard and left the magazines and lotion alone.

[Kurald Galain]

Has it ever occurred to you what horrible, inhuman monsters adventurers really are?

Who says they were human? It could easily have been an inhuman dwarf or elf.

I expect we'll eventually find out it was the Order of the Scribble, though.

[Kish]

This "Oh, that poor dragon" thing only works as long as you don't consider what dragons do... They hunt and kill and take.

Now they sound like adventurers.

(Also, are you arguing for metallic and chromatic dragons both being treated as monsters to be killed? None of your statements about dragons have a qualifier.)

[Atelm]

Has it ever occurred to you what horrible, inhuman monsters adventurers really are?

This is exactly what Redcloak goes on about, except he thinks like this for the whole "civilized" (PHB) races (Humans, dwarves, elves, etc.).

Perhaps sadly, this is how the D&D world works. A dragon comes up and attacks a town and slaughters some locals, townspeople cry out for help, in comes the adventurering party who slaughter the dragon and are showered with loot and exp.

Now, the comic takes an interesting spin on it by showing the other side of the equation too; the ones who are often shown as the villains. In Redcloak's case it's the goblinoid races, in the latest few comics it's the chromatic dragons.

[whatchamacallit]

I seem to recall black dragon skin can be cured into leather armour, how sweet would that look on a rogue I say skin and tan them all otherwise all that prime material is going to waste instead of raising PC armour classes like it ought to.

On the other hand I don't want to meet the dragon running around draped in the skins of humanoids, sure it's a fashion statement but it just screams eccentric.

[Spiryt]

Poor dragoness, my heart really went with her...can't a baby dragon play joyfully in his cave without some adventurers going there to kill him so they can steal his toys?

In this case dragon "baby dragon" attacked them on sight just beacuse, so it's not like he's got anyone compassion.

[Nenec]

In this case dragon "baby dragon" attacked them on sight just beacuse, so it's not like he's got anyone compassion.

If someone weapons-on-hand entered my home, I really think I'd do the same.

That dragon was no baby :p

But very young indeed, even if reading adults "literature"

If they stole his toys, I'm going to be very disturbed. Hopefully they just stole the hoard and left the magazines and lotion alone.

We can never know, now that you made me think about that But I could only see Belkar such disturbed

[Snake-Aes]

If someone weapons-on-hand entered my home, I really think I'd do the same.

But very young indeed, even if reading adults "literature"

Mamma Dragon hinted he was a teenager.

We can never know, now that you made me think about that But I could only see Belkar such disturbed

See Rule 34

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Now they sound like adventurers.

(Also, are you arguing for metallic and chromatic dragons both being treated as monsters to be killed? None of your statements about dragons have a qualifier.)

I left any qualifiers off for the same reason the OP left any qualifiers off... I wanted to shake people up, and start pointless arguments.

Seriously, adventurers and dragons and goblins seeling to release world destroying abominations don't exist in our world, so why do we come to this board and try to impose our morals and ethos on them?

Dragosn in OotSverse hunt and kill, take what they want, and have no pity on mere monkey people like humans, elves, halflings or dwarves. Yet now people are getting up in arms about a bunch of heroes who killed a dragon who was taking an active role in killing THEM! The black dragon family didn't gain it's wealth through prudent investments and long-term planning, they killed whoever had the wealth, ate them, and added the now deceased person's wealth to their personal hoard.

As for the metalic dragons, I don't believe we've met any (outside of my pet theory that Haley is a copper dragon, disguised as a human; and that she bluffed Durkon with the bald-faced truth), so it's hard to tell if metalic dragons are truly altruistic, or just have a better PR frim fronting for them. Probably the same ones that represented hamsters, thus convincing kids and thier parents that a rat is a perfectly acceptable pet!

[Texas Jedi]

I would never let my DnD group kill a monster just because it was evil. It would have to another reason....like the dragon was rampaging across the kingdom, or a goblin raid destroyed a villiage. I would always make sure the adventurers were justified in killing the monster.

I would have thrown the DM monkey wrench at a person or party that justified killing something just because it was evil. I would make it my personal responsibility to make sure they are never that stupid again.

[Snake-Aes]

I would never let my DnD group kill a monster just because it was evil. It would have to another reason....like the dragon was rampaging across the kingdom, or a goblin raid destroyed a villiage. I would always make sure the adventurers were justified in killing the monster.

I would have thrown the DM monkey wrench at a person or party that justified killing something just because it was evil. I would make it my personal responsibility to make sure they are never that stupid again.

pally had a miko moment and slaughtered a small caravan composed of skeletons and orcs while we traveled between cities.






Turned out they were transporting valuable livestock for a rather vengeful lich.

[Spiryt]

If someone weapons-on-hand entered my home, I really think I'd do the same.

To be fair, they had their weapons sheathed.

And dragon is intelligent enough to realise that most creatures passing trough the darkness in some forgotten rift would bever realise that it's someones home.

[Mina Kobold]

First I agree with that the world is different and lacks moral development that we got because NOTHING threatens us in this way (and we are only friendly to tigers and the like because we wants to keep the big kitties) in this world. Being moral like us might not keep you alive for very long plus the fact that we would kill different looking people at sight if at war with them (these adventures are almost at war with dragons). Second Certain cultures (cannibals) meant that burying others was a waste, this and the things humans are willing to do when desperate (people stranded on islands have eatened each other) making armor, a vital thing in this world froo their hides might be justified. Third, people acted this way a few hundred years ago (you could buy unicorn horns and dried mermaid (fake of course) in the colonial era).

Just my 20 gps

[Porthos]

*reads thread very carefully*

*re-reads just to make sure*


Huh.

Guess this board wasn't nearly as anti-Celia as I thought.

Funny how when it's Celia is making these sorts of arguments the board rises up in righteous indignation. But when it's a vile, horrible, despicable evil creature like an ANCIENT BLACK DRAGON, suddenly the board is tripping over itself in its new found pacifism and tut-tut-tut ness.

Interesting.

[chiasaur11]

I left any qualifiers off for the same reason the OP left any qualifiers off... I wanted to shake people up, and start pointless arguments.

Seriously, adventurers and dragons and goblins seeling to release world destroying abominations don't exist in our world, so why do we come to this board and try to impose our morals and ethos on them?

Dragosn in OotSverse hunt and kill, take what they want, and have no pity on mere monkey people like humans, elves, halflings or dwarves. Yet now people are getting up in arms about a bunch of heroes who killed a dragon who was taking an active role in killing THEM! The black dragon family didn't gain it's wealth through prudent investments and long-term planning, they killed whoever had the wealth, ate them, and added the now deceased person's wealth to their personal hoard.

As for the metalic dragons, I don't believe we've met any (outside of my pet theory that Haley is a copper dragon, disguised as a human; and that she bluffed Durkon with the bald-faced truth), so it's hard to tell if metalic dragons are truly altruistic, or just have a better PR frim fronting for them. Probably the same ones that represented hamsters, thus convincing kids and thier parents that a rat is a perfectly acceptable pet!

Well, even standard rats are fine pets. My little sister had a couple. Fairly friendly critters if they don't have any parasites and are well fed.

[Snake-Aes]

*reads thread very carefully*

*re-reads just to make sure*


Huh.

Guess this board wasn't nearly as anti-Celia as I thought.

Funny how when it's Celia is making these sorts of arguments the board rises up in righteous indignation. But when it's a vile, horrible, despicable evil creature like an ANCIENT BLACK DRAGON, suddenly the board is tripping over itself in its new found pacifism and tut-tut-tut ness.

Interesting.

It's the sob story and the actually cruel fitting revenge.

[Donald]

And this poor distraught mother is taking V to the proper authorities for trial and incarceration? Or even dealing a vigilante justice of her own? No. She's gonna kill some kids that had nothing to do with the original "crime". On the up bright side, I'm sure no innocent bystanders will be harmed by the mother dragon on the way to kill V's children.