[3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Organizations

[LoyalPaladin]

There's a 3.5 subforum? I thought it was just these threads. And the occasional discussion about why medium armor is badly designed in the middle of discussions about Oriental Adventures.

Don't worry, a lot of people don't realize there is more to the forum than just these threads.

[NeoPhoenix0]

There's a 3.5 subforum? I thought it was just these threads. And the occasional discussion about why medium armor is badly designed in the middle of discussions about Oriental Adventures.

I thought everything here was pedantic discussion about what random sentences really mean.

[unseenmage]

Also since I've never made an organization and can do this without necro-ing the thread. Anyone still actually caring about getting an organization made who didn't get one yet?

IIRC I already have one but it is more username themed than my-GitP-persona themed. That said I would be more than happy to rearrange some phalanxes of artificial lifeforms according the the organizational structure provided by the Great and Powerful Zaydos.



This has reminded me of that one time when I tried to go through the Power of Faerun book and price out the cost of crafting an entire kingdom, starting with the court and nobles, from scratch from Effigies. Was going to (in character) plant a few completely artificial city states in the hinterlands of Faerun and see if anybody noticed.

[Fizban]

There's a 3.5 subforum? I thought it was just these threads. And the occasional discussion about why medium armor is badly designed in the middle of discussions about Oriental Adventures.

The war is only over if we forget. And I have not yet forgotten

Let's see, what crusades have I been on recently? Limited Wish does work that way, fix the armor tables, how to "hack" the movement system so birds move as fast as they do in real life, always use Revenance+Revivify, two-axis alignment is gold and philosophy is garbage, make a list of significant spells and a handbook for high end divination tactics, Flee the Scene does not work that way, teach your players how to play or stop complaining that they're bad, nevermind just stop DMing because you're bad, don't forget that Eberron conveniently never priced Conductor Stones (because it would make it obvious that railway is unfeasible), Sorcery and Steam has the best gun rules and everyone else is garbage (especially Pathfinder), don't use cheese to prove yourself right because it doesn't, if Detect Magic doesn't find Antimagic Fields I will book you, no seriously robbing people for no reason is not "RP," use traps responsibly, engage with your DM rather than trying to sneak a CL boost by, bargaining with bound creatures is great but enslaving them is banned because duh, magic item "formulas" are not, I hate elves except in settings that hate elves (then they're okay), someone decided to use my expanded Warmage and Hexblade spell lists (yay!), Greater Teleport at-will is huge and worth plenty of LA, more like Abjurant Cheeselord, and no seriously I hate Ruathar but it does help gish builds a bit. Less recently but whenever it comes up: the CR system is fine and you're all using it wrong, airship research, and Pathfinder's building system sucks and you should use Stronghold Builder's Guide.

I plug the Servant Soul all the time because it's one of my most favorite things. And yet when it comes to class fixes, I have unironically said: "The only thing the Fighter doesn't need is more feats, so the solution is to give them more feats," and "The biggest problem with Monk is the lack of AC, fix that and it'll work fine." I hate trip builds and Dungeoncrasher. Clerity is banned, Wings of Cover is at least 4th level, all the big conjurations have nerf bats waiting to fall, and if you even try to say "Uncanny Forethought" or "Incantatrix" I'll laugh you out of the room.

I play Dark Souls but not PvP. Everyone who thinks Dark Souls 2 is bad, is an idiot. Dark Souls 3 may have some depths I missed, but it's linear world is still a failure of exploration. TF2 was good, matchmaking was even better, until they neutered it on day 2 because they don't understand how games work and only listen to whining idiots. And I finally decided to go back and buy Guild Wars since I never got to see the parts I wanted to see.

So there, have a bio. Stat something of me if you dare, but don't be surprised if I say it's over/under/sideways-powered.

[Zaydos]

IIRC I already have one but it is more username themed than my-GitP-persona themed. That said I would be more than happy to rearrange some phalanxes of artificial lifeforms according the the organizational structure provided by the Great and Powerful Zaydos.



This has reminded me of that one time when I tried to go through the Power of Faerun book and price out the cost of crafting an entire kingdom, starting with the court and nobles, from scratch from Effigies. Was going to (in character) plant a few completely artificial city states in the hinterlands of Faerun and see if anybody noticed.

Wait did they make an organization for you that didn't include construct creation in any way shape or form? That, that... how could that be done ?

The war is only over if we forget. And I have not yet forgotten

Your posts were good, reminded me that I did need to try implementing those house rules (need proficiency in original weight category with mithral and +1 to AC of medium and heavy armor across the board).

[unseenmage]

Wait did they make an organization for you that didn't include construct creation in any way shape or form? That, that... how could that be done ?

...

Elricaltovilla made a very clever thing and I appreciate it muchly. But no, no constructs were created in the making of their organization.



Am now looking into how to rework that previous An-Entire-Grand-Court-of-Faerun-Made-of-Effigies into a Pathfinder Golarion royal court. Should be amusing to make them PF robots too while I'm at it. Or at least clockworks (though I loath PF clockworks more than just about anything).

[5a Violista]

hahahaha;
I just remembered that I had promised to create an organization a couple pages back, but never actually got around to it. Well, time to finish that promise.

So, I'll make one for Zaydos, since I totes recognize you from the Silly Message Board Games, and I saw you in the Permissions thread. I'll follow the format of some of the earlier ones in this thread.

The Peanut Ministry
Or, to those "in the know": Communion of the Dracolich

History: The Peanut Ministry started from humble beginnings. During a particularly bad drought one-and-a-half millennia ago, crops were scarce. Taxation was high. Corruption was rampant throughout the nearby churches. Farmers in particular could hardly afford to pay for divine blessings, pay for military protection from their lords, and feed their family. The fortunate could pick two; the unlucky could only choose one of those options. Adrastos Dorian was one of those farmers: with his shoddy crop of peanuts, his family was on the verge of death. Then, so the story goes, one day an angel appeared to him and blessed him with an abundance of crops. His family was no longer on their deathbed. Not only that, but he had an immense surplus of peanuts, so he went around preaching to other farmers the good news and giving them as many peanuts as they needed. From these humble beginnings, this church began and gave hope to everyone.

Structure: Even today, the church has a fairly standard structure, befitting its common origins. Everyone within the church is equals. To remember their history, each church elects a so-called "Peanut Gallery" - generally a group of successful worshipers who are humbled by their success and share their wealth with other members. They receive no pay, only religious favor. There are, of course, always-veiled traveling assistants who assist the Peanut Gallery and follow their orders. They rarely speak and never show their faces, to demonstrate their humility. These assistants are always from outside the community, and if you wish to become one it's not difficult: just speak with the Peanut Gallery and they'll help you.

Joining: It's a fairly standard joining process: you show up to church. If you are in need, you receive surplus. If you have been successful the past year in your business endeavors (or in anything else), you bring your surplus. Then, you are a member of the church. If you have been particularly generous, you may even be elected (by popular vote) to be in the Peanut Gallery.

Duties: It's simple: bring your surplus to the church for the less fortunate members. Share your knowledge of the Peanut Ministry with your neighbors. Share the good news especially to the poor so they can come and participate. If you wish to serve and are not financially successful enough to be chosen to the Peanut Gallery, you have the clear option of becoming a traveling veiled assistant. Finally, there is one final duty: give preferential service to other members of The Peanut Ministry. If you have the option of hiring one of the same faith as you, or one of a different faith, the choice is obvious.

Perception: Overall, the Peanut Ministry is seen as a fairly decent church, sticking to its roots of humility. Everyone helps one another. Of course, this may all change when you pull back the veil and see what's beneath...

Duties: In addition to the above duties, keep what you have learned a secret. Hunt out those who have learned the true nature of this organization, and either let them join the upper echelons voluntarily, or force them to join as undead. Learn the art of necromancy. Help those who are members of this church, but especially help those who are already "in the know".

Joining: There really is only one way to join the true level of the church, and that is to do your own research and learn its own nature on your own. Then, after learning, you'll have a choice: either voluntarily join and be successful in life, or join as a mindless undead.

True Structure: When somebody discovers the true nature of The Peanut Ministry, one of two things happens: either they embrace it because it has already given so much help and relief in the world, or they are revolted from it. Those who turn away (and those who are incapable of helping society) are turned into undead as they are moved away from the community to become veiled assistants. Those who embrace its true nature are helped by the successful and the flock is manipulated to vote for them, so that they will eventually be elected to join the Peanut Gallery. Those who gain more necromantic power rise in rank (unofficially, of course), and their success rises as those lower in rank are compelled to help those more powerful in necromancy.

True History: Remarkably, the history is really accurate, with the exception of one minor detail: the "angel" was actually a dracolich. It's true, the dracolich did help poor Adrastos Dorian, but it was largely by turning his dying family into undead. Undead don't suffer from disease. Undead don't need to eat food. Undead can work for longer every day before collapsing from exhaustion. This is what lead to Adrastos's success. He kept his family hidden behind veils whenever others came over or when they were out working. Adrastos, his family, and the dracolich still lead the church in secret to this day.

There!
Done.
Made one, as promised!

Edit:
More.

Spoiler: The veneer of an organization

Show

Criterion	Affiliation Score Modifier
Character Level:	+1/2 character level
Be in poverty	+2
Have Skill Focus(Profession(Farmer))	+1
10 or more ranks in Profession(Farmer)	+2
10 or more ranks in Knowledge (Nature) or (Religion)	+1
20 or more ranks in Profession (Farmer)	+4
Become a member of its secret organization	+5
Be elected to join the Peanut Gallery	+5
Reveal (intentionally or otherwise) the secrets	-5
Multiple Use
Donate all of your wealth that you aren't using	+1
Help someone else join The Peanut Ministry	+0.5
Publicly give the appearance of pride	-3
Help another member financially	+0.5

Titles, Benefits, and Duties: I'm going to probably put this off and maybe not do it.

Affiliation Score	Title, Benefits, and Duties
3 or less	Infrequent Churchgoer: You go to church sometimes.
4-10	Churchgoer: Most people in the congregation can recognize you because you show up semi-frequently.
11-15	Devout Churchgoer: If you're in poverty, the richest members of the congregation will gladly help you out.
16-22	Very Devout Churchgoer: Most churchgoers are willing to help you out financially because they recognize how devout you are.
23-29	So Humble: You are so humble that other churchgoers praise you for it.
30+	The Humblest: None of the other churchgoers doubt your righteousness or your humility.

Executive Powers: n/A

Spoiler: The actual organization

Show

Criterion	Affiliation Score Modifier
Character Level:	+1/2 character level
Discovered the existence of this organization on your own	+3
Become an intelligent undead	+5
Have created undead	+1
Have created intelligent undead	+3
20 or more ranks in Knowlege (religion)	+4
10 or more ranks in Knowlege (religion)	+2
Revealed the existence of this organization	-5
Multiple Use
Personally create 5 undead in secret	+1/3 the lowest CR of the 5
Perform despotic acts in secret	+0.5
Help a new member be elected in the Peanut Gallery	+1
Turn a traitor unto an undead	+2
Betray another member	-2
Revealed the organization's secrets	-2

Titles, Benefits, and Duties: I'm going to probably put this off and maybe not do it.

Affiliation Score	Title, Benefits, and Duties
3 or less	I'll
4-10	figure
11-15	these
16-22	out
23-29	much
30+	later

Executive Powers: Same as above: putting off, probably will not finish.

[Fizban]

Your posts were good, reminded me that I did need to try implementing those house rules (need proficiency in original weight category with mithral and +1 to AC of medium and heavy armor across the board).

Should have expected three more posts while I went and wrote a whole new one in the edit box. Your fix is even more low-impact than mine, and probably works better. Instead of rocking the boat with explicit proficiency requirements I figured messing with all the materials would be easier, not so much.

[Zaydos]

hahahaha;
I just remembered that I had promised to create an organization a couple pages back, but never actually got around to it. Well, time to finish that promise.

So, I'll make one for Zaydos, since I totes recognize you from the Silly Message Board Games, and I saw you in the Permissions thread. I'll follow the format of some of the earlier ones in this thread.

-snip for length-

It's evil I APPROVE. THANK YOU.

Should have expected three more posts while I went and wrote a whole new one in the edit box. Your fix is even more low-impact than mine, and probably works better. Instead of rocking the boat with explicit proficiency requirements I figured messing with all the materials would be easier, not so much.

Mine is a band-aid. And hey with mine you can still wear Mithral Chain Shirt without proficiency (in that there is no penalty for ACP 0 armor with non-proficiency)... which makes things a little easier on monstrous PCs? Casters either get Light Armor or don't want it, I mean I guess Mithral Twilight would save a sorcerer a spells known but I'm fine with that.

A lot of my issues with melee are issues without the presence of casters whatsoever. Like that Bronze Breastplate is pointless It was my favorite armor as a child.

[Zaydos]

IIRC I already have one but it is more username themed than my-GitP-persona themed. That said I would be more than happy to rearrange some phalanxes of artificial lifeforms according the the organizational structure provided by the Great and Powerful Zaydos.

(What can I do it's a request, also the snipped part actually fits perfectly with what I'd already thought of for you as showcased below)

The Unseen Makers

Symbol: The Unseen Makers symbol is a simple shoe with a gear upon its tongue, although in proper form its sole is only half attached some Unseen Makers wear shoes with the gear design on the tongue as a simple sign of their allegiance.

Background, goals, and dreams: The Unseen Makers love to create, it is their sworn vow to create life in construct form. They are dedicated to a series of one-upsmanship in which they create ever more complicated hordes of constructs without ever revealing their role in the sudden construct plague to the world outside of the organization.

This is related to the fact that the Unseen Makers were originally a group of gnomish and dwarven arcangineers, and a single silver dragon pretending to be a dwarf, who after a series of meetings began to compete with each other in the construction of constructs. The ancient dwarven city of Thironkir and its Marching Walls is an example of this excess. After a time, however, they decided two things, one that the resources required to do these ever expanding projects was bankrupting each of them and sometimes their entire nation, as showcased by the fall of Thironkir, and two that it had simply become a competition of resources and not skill and intellect. So they created a new rule: Anything which the world at large knows you created is null and void for their purposes. It was then and there they took the name the Unseen Makers.

Since then this loose knit group of bored mages have taken apprentices, brought in friends, and over time the Unseen Makers spread beyond this cabal of 8. While still a predominantly gnomish and dwarven group they've even allowed entry to ELVES and other races less abhorrent than elves. Still they keep their numbers small to avoid revealing their secret order's existence to the world at large.

The order's greatest dream and aspiration of course is to create the perfect construct and not as a one of a kind affair but as something produced in mass, though what that is they can't agree upon. The warforged are suggested as being close in ways, but lacking in true construct-ness and requiring too much assistance in their own creation.

Members: The Unseen Makers accept only those who have created at least one construct. As such non-mages are almost unheard of. It's not like someone can simply make a construct by sheer mastery of origami, no it takes a trained and adept mage. As such the Unseen Makers are an elite but small order.

Secrets: The very existence of the Unseen Makers is a secret. Beyond that in hushed whispers they claim to have created the warforged, and the continued appearance of warforged throughout the world can be accredited to three of their number. In addition the silver dragon Talzimon who helped found the Unseen Maker so many centuries ago is still alive, his twilight indefinitely delayed due to his ever increasing construct self-additions which may have interfered with his natural progression into great wyrm. His continued existence is kept a secret from other metallic dragons due to his horribly twisted and corrupt thoughts (Talzimon is True Neutral after all) and his creation of a sentient race for nothing more than an oversized game where in he then scattered them throughout the purpose with no true cause or purpose. Well Eberron has a reason for warforged. Insane silver dragon creating them as a lark because he fell in with gnomes is a better reason than I've seen given for most non-Eberron settings.

Type: Cabal.

Scale: 8.

Affiliation Score Criterion: A character may not be a member of the Unseen Makers unless they demonstrate the ability to create at least semi-permanent constructs. Astral constructs and other constructs which fade within mere minutes are not considered. They must also discover that the Unseen Makers exist or be told by a teacher, friend, or associate who happens to be part of the order.

Criterion	Affiliation Score Modifier
Character Level:	+1/2 character level
Craft Construct	+2
3 other Item Creation feats	+1
10 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana)	+2
10 or more ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering)	+1
20 or more ranks in Knowlege (arcana)	+4
Created an iron golem	+2
Created a living construct	+3
Revealed your membership in the Unseen Makers to the world	-6
Multiple Use
Created 5 constructs in secret	+1/3 the lowest CR of the 5
Created a type of construct never before created by you (in the case of templates such as effigy or elder eidolon only 1/template)	+1
Invented a new variety of construct	+3
Go 3 months without creating a construct	-1
Reveal another's membership in the Unseen Makers to the world	-4
Miss one of the biannual conclaves	-1

Titles, Benefits, and Duties: The Unseen Makers while technically not having a strict leader do expect junior members to follow the Grand Makers and Great Makers. To increase in rank one must convey one's accomplishments to their fellows at one of the biannual conclaves of the Makers and be voted the next rank.

Affiliation Score	Title, Benefits, and Duties
3 or less	Pariah: It is almost impossible to be a member with this low of an affiliation score, either this is a secondary or tertiary affiliation for you, or you have done something to seriously anger the other Makers.
4-10	Maker: Through connections and favors from the other Makers you can procure craftsman to make the physical body of a construct at 80% the normal cost to hire someone to make it for you.
11-15	Learned Maker: You can emulate up to 1 spell in the creation of a construct as long as that spell has a spell level no higher than 1/2 your character level.
16-22	Adept Maker: You can create constructs in 2/3 the regular time.
23-29	Great Maker: Your skills are masterful. Constructs you create gain a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls and damage with their natural weapons.
30+	Grand Maker: Your skills are legend and you're 1/3 to 1/2 as respected as an insane silver dragon. Constructs you create cost only 1/2 the normal XP.

Executive Powers: Craft (counts as Scale 19 for this purpose), Pariah, and Research.

[unseenmage]

...

The Unseen Makers

...

It's FANTASTIC! Thank you!

Now I just have to figure out if I'd rather spring this on my playgroup as the player or the DM...

[Zaydos]

Fruits of the Shadow Tree (Xuldarinar)

Symbol: A black apple surrounded by emanating shadows.

Background, goals, and dreams: The Fruit of the Shadow Tree are a mostly druidic sect founded to maintain the balance of nature and the wild within the Plane of Shadow. They were founded over 800 years ago by a group of druids who had spent much time in that realm and observed that just like the Prime it was not only a part of nature but a threatened part. As such they set up the Fruits of the Shadow Tree to tend to and protect the wildernesses within.

Their goals include doing just that, even though it sometimes puts them in conflict with the illumians and other intelligent denizens of the Plane of Shadows. They have after a long discussion decided that many of the darker and fouler elements of the plane are a natural part of it, that it is tinged with evil and that for the balance of the world it is best to leave it there within the Plane of Shadow for attempting to cleanse it could have unforetold consequences for both the Plane of Shadow and the Prime. Of course the illumians are not one of these natural regions of moral darkness and instead threaten to cleanse it and destabilize the planes as a whole.

Members: Members of the Fruits of the Shadow Tree are most often druids and rangers, although they count shadowcasters among there numbers and even midnight gardeners. Some may also have levels in the Thrall of Shub-Niggurath Darinarxul PrC.

Secrets: The leaders of the Fruits of the Shadow Tree are actually worshipers of the elder evil Darinarxul. It was founded by a group of travelers who were fleeing the most recent world the Root of Darkness destroyed and whose minds it claimed in their voyage. It chose to use them as seeds for another world to target, preparing the way for a meal in the not too distant future (for a creature that eats once every 5 centuries). The Fruits of the Shadow Tree actually exist for the sole purpose of preparing the way for Darinarxul and ensuring that intruders do not discover the Root of Darkness's already extending tendrils into the world. Ia! Ia! Darinarxul!

Type: Druid Circle.

Scale: 10.

Affiliation Score Criterion: A character may not reach an affiliation score of 30 or higher without giving their soul and mind to Darinarxul.

Criterion	Affiliation Score Modifier
Character Level:	+1/2 character level
Ability to cast spells from the druid or ranger list	+1
Ability to cast mysteries	+1
Spent at least 3 months living on the Plane of Shadow	+1
Spent at least 5 years living on the Plane of Shadow	+3
Spent at least 1 month traveling deep into the Plane of Shadow in seclusion	+2
Has pledged soul to Darinarxul	+5
10 or more ranks in Knowledge (the planes)	+1
10 or more ranks in Knowlege (nature)	+1
Ability to cast Shadow Walk or another ability which mimics its effect	+1
Possess an ability which mitigates harmful effects of taint	+1
Multiple Use
Furthered Darinarxul's cause in a significant manner	+2

Titles, Benefits, and Duties: To rise in rank in the Fruit of the Shadow Tree one must travel to their headquarters on the Plane of Shadow and petition there for such a promotion. The higher rank the greater duties they are expected to perform and the more likely they are to be sent to take hermitages in the deep shadows to contemplate the plane... and have their mind's re-shaped by Darinarxul.

Affiliation Score	Title, Benefits, and Duties
3 or less	Seed: You are technically a member.
4-10	Sprout: You gain a +2 on saving throws to avoid gaining taint or to avoid being nauseated or stunned by doing so.
11-15	Sapling: You gain Low-Light Vision if you do not have it. If you have Low-Light Vision your Darkvision increases 30 ft (or you gain 30 ft darkvision).
16-22	Tree: You can sense any naturally formed portals to or from the Plane of Shadow within 1000 ft.
23-29	Elder: You treat vile damage you have received as regular damage.
30+	Archdruid: Once per day you may create a portal to the Plane of Shadow from the Prime or vice versa (to the conterminous point) as a standard action. This portal remains open for 1 hour or until you close it as a standard action.

Executive Powers: Assassinate, Plague, and Shadow War.

[Xuldarinar]

Fruits of the Shadow Tree (Xuldarinar)

Symbol: A black apple surrounded by emanating shadows.

Background, goals, and dreams: The Fruit of the Shadow Tree are a mostly druidic sect founded to maintain the balance of nature and the wild within the Plane of Shadow. They were founded over 800 years ago by a group of druids who had spent much time in that realm and observed that just like the Prime it was not only a part of nature but a threatened part. As such they set up the Fruits of the Shadow Tree to tend to and protect the wildernesses within.

Their goals include doing just that, even though it sometimes puts them in conflict with the illumians and other intelligent denizens of the Plane of Shadows. They have after a long discussion decided that many of the darker and fouler elements of the plane are a natural part of it, that it is tinged with evil and that for the balance of the world it is best to leave it there within the Plane of Shadow for attempting to cleanse it could have unforetold consequences for both the Plane of Shadow and the Prime. Of course the illumians are not one of these natural regions of moral darkness and instead threaten to cleanse it and destabilize the planes as a whole.

Members: Members of the Fruits of the Shadow Tree are most often druids and rangers, although they count shadowcasters among there numbers and even midnight gardeners (PrC does not currently exist, check back soon). Some may also have levels in the Thrall of Shub-Niggurath Darinarxul PrC.

Secrets: The leaders of the Fruits of the Shadow Tree are actually worshipers of the elder evil Darinarxul. It was founded by a group of travelers who were fleeing the most recent world the Root of Darkness destroyed and whose minds it claimed in their voyage. It chose to use them as seeds for another world to target, preparing the way for a meal in the not too distant future (for a creature that eats once every 5 centuries). The Fruits of the Shadow Tree actually exist for the sole purpose of preparing the way for Darinarxul and ensuring that intruders do not discover the Root of Darkness's already extending tendrils into the world. Ia! Ia! Darinarxul!

Type: Druid Circle.

Scale: 10.

Affiliation Score Criterion: A character may not reach an affiliation score of 30 or higher without giving their soul and mind to Darinarxul.

Criterion	Affiliation Score Modifier
Character Level:	+1/2 character level
Ability to cast spells from the druid or ranger list	+1
Ability to cast mysteries	+1
Spent at least 3 months living on the Plane of Shadow	+1
Spent at least 5 years living on the Plane of Shadow	+3
Spent at least 1 month traveling deep into the Plane of Shadow in seclusion	+2
Has pledged soul to Darinarxul	+5
10 or more ranks in Knowledge (the planes)	+1
10 or more ranks in Knowlege (nature)	+1
Ability to cast Shadow Walk or another ability which mimics its effect	+1
Possess an ability which mitigates harmful effects of taint	+1
Multiple Use
Furthered Darinarxul's cause in a significant manner	+2

Titles, Benefits, and Duties: To rise in rank in the Fruit of the Shadow Tree one must travel to their headquarters on the Plane of Shadow and petition there for such a promotion. The higher rank the greater duties they are expected to perform and the more likely they are to be sent to take hermitages in the deep shadows to contemplate the plane... and have their mind's re-shaped by Darinarxul.

Affiliation Score	Title, Benefits, and Duties
3 or less	Seed: You are technically a member.
4-10	Sprout: You gain a +2 on saving throws to avoid gaining taint or to avoid being nauseated or stunned by doing so.
11-15	Sapling: You gain Low-Light Vision if you do not have it. If you have Low-Light Vision your Darkvision increases 30 ft (or you gain 30 ft darkvision).
16-22	Tree: You can sense any naturally formed portals to or from the Plane of Shadow within 1000 ft.
23-29	Elder: You treat vile damage you have received as regular damage.
30+	Archdruid: Once per day you may create a portal to the Plane of Shadow from the Prime or vice versa (to the conterminous point) as a standard action. This portal remains open for 1 hour or until you close it as a standard action.

Executive Powers: Assassinate, Plague, and Shadow War.

This is simply amazing. I love it.

I may even have to use it, given the opportunity..

[Zaydos]

It's FANTASTIC! Thank you!

Now I just have to figure out if I'd rather spring this on my playgroup as the player or the DM...

This is simply amazing. I love it.

I may even have to use it, given the opportunity..

I'd say the Makers work better as a thing introduced by the DM... but I'd say that about all affiliations (I DM by default so...)

And now I may have to make Midnight Gardeners i.e. a Shadowcaster version of Arcane Hierophant (no Animal Companion, no BAB prerequisite , 14 levels so you can go 3/3/14, but still Druid specific theurge... oh and Wild Empathy instead of Woodland Stride as a prerequisite so you can get in with ranger more easily and with Spirit Shaman and OA Shaman)... um... Ok I now must away into the darkness to make a Nature-Caster/Shadowcaster theurge with actual class features.

[illyahr]

Hey, I'm gone for a week and the thread explodes!

I'm glad to see everyone back. I got so lonely that I started an Oriental Adventures appreciation thread.

[Zaydos]

Keepers of the Hoard (Draconium)

Symbol: A draconic claw grasping a spheroid pile of golden coins.

Background, goals, and dreams: Across the planes there is only one thing that dragons can agree upon. Killing a dragon to loot its hoard is wrong. There are other acceptable reasons to kill a dragon and of course a slain dragon's hoard ought to be incorporated into your own, but that's a different story, and territorial disputes happen. But then there are those who simply kill dragons for their hoards. Or not quite as bad but thieves and burgling halflings that would rob a dragon of their hoard. These humanoids interloping in the matters of dragons out of sheer greed for wealth, which the instinctual need for a hoard is of course an absolutely different thing than mere humanoid greed, had to be stopped. Golds and reds agreed, bronze and black, brass and blue, only silver and copper dragons vaguely objecting of the ten prime species, but they were silenced because their statements were inane (alright, gnomes bring your hoard back when the prank is over we're not talking about gnomish pranksters) or simply objectively wrong and tainted with too much time pretending to be human (no, human greed and hoarding instinct are not similar).

So the keepers of the hoard were born from a (mostly) united front of dragon kind. They were, and are, an order dedicated to the eradication of dirty, usually halfling, hoard thieves (where do they keep getting those rings of invisibility?), and those who would kill dragons to steal their hoards. To this end they kill hoard thieves (or in the case of chromatic dragons kill hoard thieves and their extended family/home villages), create new defensive guardian creatures for draconic hoards ranging from constructs to magical beasts to even certain unnaturally created elementals, create new spells (who did you think invented the alarm spell), and a variety of other methods.

To this day they have continued to act against hoard thieves and dragon hunters. Together the Keepers of the Hoard make the world safe for dragons of all kinds and colors.

Members: Members of the Keepers of the Hoard are primarily true dragons, although they also include other varieties of dragons, and their dragonblooded servitors. They range in alignment from Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil, and in methods, but agree that a dragon's hoard is a sacred thing. In the years since their founding even many silver dragons have come around to the Keepers' way of thinking and joined the order.

Secrets: In addition to having created hoard guardian spider and hoard elementals, the Keepers of the Hoard are ashamed to admit that they were behind the extensive breeding program which transformed the rodent-esque race of least goblinoids known as kobolds into their current form.

Type: "Fighting Company."

Scale: 19.

Affiliation Score Criterion: A character must possess the dragonblood subtype or dragon type to be a Keeper of the Hoard, characters who lack the dragon type have their affiliation score increases beyond 15 halved.

Criterion	Affiliation Score Modifier
Character Level:	+1/3 character level
Dragon racial hit dice	+1/3 hit dice to a maximum of age category
Charisma 21+ without magical bonuses	+2
Dragonblood subtype	-3
Breath Weapon	+1
Seniority	+1/100 years of membership
Patronage of a draconic deity (cleric, PrC that requires them as patron, dragonborn)	+2
Hoard	+1/10,000 GP worth of gems, coins, or trade goods (as opposed to useful items)
Killed a fellow Keeper to steal their hoard	-infinite, followed by excommunication and death followed by reanimation to serve as the guardian of another dragon's hoard.
Multiple Use
Brought the thieves of a hoard to justice	+1
Slew dragon slayers	+2/band
Returned stolen hoard to its owner	+2
Stole a hoard	-15
Sheltered hoard thieves from justice	-5
Sheltered dragon slayers from those who would slay them in return	-8

Titles, Benefits, and Duties: To rise in rank in the Keepers of the Hoard one must simply let the information of one's deeds and loyalty to the cause, or one's sheer power and wealth, spread throughout their information network. All Keepers are expected to provide aid to fellow members, or non-members, dealing with hoard thieves and those who would make a name for themselves as dragonslayers (those who merely slew a dragon in self-defense are not considered dragon slayers unless they brag of it and make an ass of themselves).

Affiliation Score	Title, Benefits, and Duties
3 or less	None.
4-10	Copper: You gain a +6 bonus on Appraise checks.
11-15	Silver: As long as you have a hoard (an accumulation of pure wealth with no practical purpose beyond its use as capital) worth at least 900 GP and commune with it daily you gain a +1 resistance bonus to saving throws, if it is worth 3,600 GP this increases to +2, if it is worth 8,100 GP to +3, 14,400 GP to +4, and at maximum if it is worth at least 22,500 GP a +5.
16-22	Gold: You can know at a glance what is missing or has been disturbed within your hoard.
23-29	Platinum: The maximum bonus to saving throws due to your hoard increases to +7; it becomes +6 at 39,600, +7 at 56,000, and +8 at 70,400 GP.
30+	Draconium: You know instantly if your hoard is disturbed regardless of the distance (even across planes), and instantly know what, if anything, has been taken from it. You are most likely agree when your hoard sense tingles.

Executive Powers: Crusade, Terrorize, and War.

[Snowbluff]

As the following represents the church of Yuki-Uso it follows the Complete Champion rules/format for Affiliations where they differ from the PHBII ones.

Masks of the Blood Boiler

Hahahha, nice. I don't know if you know htis, but I'm currently trying to find a game for an Unholy Scion Fiend of Possession who killed her Paladin mother, and is spreading rumors that her sword is a artifact of great good and destiny. Paladins seek it out, only for this FoP to pervert the Lady of the Lake story, either causing the Paladin to fall or betraying him at a critical moment to get him killed.

Should I start another vestige thread?

[Zaydos]

Hey, I'm gone for a week and the thread explodes!

I'm glad to see everyone back. I got so lonely that I started an Oriental Adventures appreciation thread.

I got a creative bug again.

Hahahha, nice. I don't know if you know htis, but I'm currently trying to find a game for an Unholy Scion Fiend of Possession who killed her Paladin mother, and is spreading rumors that her sword is a artifact of great good and destiny. Paladins seek it out, only for this FoP to pervert the Lady of the Lake story, either causing the Paladin to fall or betraying him at a critical moment to get him killed.

Didn't know that, though I can't say I'm surprised.

Should I start another vestige thread?

Up to you. Vestiges are fun* to make.

*Despite the 8 level system and the Improved Binding feat making balancing them extra nightmarish and the Web Enhancement guidelines useless for actually balancing them.

[illyahr]

I'm up for vestiges. I missed the first one and after programming every single one of those suckers from ToM into a character generation program, I think I'll make a few of my own.

[Draconium]

Keepers of the Hoard (Draconium)

Now, see, if I weren't such a cultured dragon, I'd be making a "hoard-gasm" joke right about now. Thank you very much for the gift. I'll be sure to put it to good use...

Secrets: In addition to having created hoard guardian spider and hoard elementals, the Keepers of the Hoard are ashamed to admit that they were behind the extensive breeding program which transformed the rodent-esque race of least goblinoids known as kobolds into their current form.

... Huh.

Hahahha, nice. I don't know if you know htis, but I'm currently trying to find a game for an Unholy Scion Fiend of Possession who killed her Paladin mother, and is spreading rumors that her sword is a artifact of great good and destiny. Paladins seek it out, only for this FoP to pervert the Lady of the Lake story, either causing the Paladin to fall or betraying him at a critical moment to get him killed.

I'm also in this game. Speaking of which, if anyone wants to DM for us, we'd really appreciate it!

Should I start another vestige thread?

Yes.

[Zaydos]

Yeah I vote Vestiges. And a PM when the thread is up so I can makes things. Not an illyahr vestige, or a Red Fel one. Those will not be made by me. Nope. Very definitely not. I have most certainly not already started making them and am not just waiting for the thread to appear to post them. I really am not.

... Huh.

Well normally goblinoids don't just spontaneously become reptilian between editions. I want answers. So I make my own. Draconic breeding project to create servitors to guard dragon hoards gone awry works.

[5a Violista]

Well, you have an advantage on me because I don't even know what a vestige is, so I'll probably have to wait until someone else makes one (or, possibly, look up what one is (but that's crazy-talk)) to make one.

[ryu]

Well, you have an advantage on me because I don't even know what a vestige is, so I'll probably have to wait until someone else makes one (or, possibly, look up what one is (but that's crazy-talk)) to make one.

Basically old, forgotten, or otherwise weakened deities followed only by people who were with them when they were in power, or hipsters.

[Zaydos]

Well, you have an advantage on me because I don't even know what a vestige is, so I'll probably have to wait until someone else makes one (or, possibly, look up what one is (but that's crazy-talk)) to make one.

In the 3.5 Tome of Magic (the 2e one was a beast of a very different, but still awesome color) three new classes were introduced each with their own variant form of magic. Truenamers with Truename Magic were a mechanical mess which at a glance were broken (not in the OP way). Shadowcasters were simply weaker than other casters but playable, though imho the least interesting fluff-wise. The third (or first in the book) were Binder who use Pact Magic to make deals with otherworldly entities (normally named after Goetic Demons or occasionally important figures in D&D lore) called Vestiges creatures which for some reason have escaped the normal D&D after life system and exist in a (hellish seeming) place (of infinite boredom and possibly madness/torment) beyond the reach of the gods or magic. They can only interact with the world by letting Binders channel a fragment of their essence to gain various Supernatural abilities, and they do this because well when you're trapped in a possibly hellish dimension of boredom and non-existence the chance to ride around in some dude is worth it to you, though they do press a bargain (represented by a Level + Charisma check on the Binder's part vs a DC) to get the chance to influence your actions usually into playing along a bit with their vices.

Official Psionic Vestiges

Official advice on designing vestiges* part 2

*Does not match official vestiges particularly well except for the strongest vestige by a sizeable margin.

Wizards doesn't seem to have the ones from ToM on their site, or Google isn't giving them to me... so have

My own attempts at making vestiges in Avengers Apple Pie, Classic Horror Pumpkin Spice, Illyahr Lemon Burst, Dark Side Chocolate flavors. No those are not all the vestiges I've made, I just got tired of linking them in the guise of ice cream flavors.

Basically old, forgotten, or otherwise weakened deities followed only by people who were with them when they were in power, or hipsters.

This is correct for Tenebrous, and arguably Amon, you might even could argue for Eurynome for 'titan' = god, but this really isn't right. For example Geryon was the only Lord of the Nine loyal to Asmodeus during the Reckoning (for which Asmodeus killed him via power suck), Balam was a worshiper of Olidammra who stole their own soul from their god in the ultimate act of worship, Haagenti was a hill giantess who used magic to deceive Thrymm and was cursed for it.

[ryu]

In the 3.5 Tome of Magic (the 2e one was a beast of a very different, but still awesome color) three new classes were introduced each with their own variant form of magic. Truenamers with Truename Magic were a mechanical mess which at a glance were broken (not in the OP way). Shadowcasters were simply weaker than other casters but playable, though imho the least interesting fluff-wise. The third (or first in the book) were Binder who use Pact Magic to make deals with otherworldly entities (normally named after Goetic Demons or occasionally important figures in D&D lore) called Vestiges creatures which for some reason have escaped the normal D&D after life system and exist in a (hellish seeming) place (of infinite boredom and possibly madness/torment) beyond the reach of the gods or magic. They can only interact with the world by letting Binders channel a fragment of their essence to gain various Supernatural abilities, and they do this because well when you're trapped in a possibly hellish dimension of boredom and non-existence the chance to ride around in some dude is worth it to you, though they do press a bargain (represented by a Level + Charisma check on the Binder's part vs a DC) to get the chance to influence your actions usually into playing along a bit with their vices.

Official Psionic Vestiges

Official advice on designing vestiges* part 2

*Does not match official vestiges particularly well except for the strongest vestige by a sizeable margin.

Wizards doesn't seem to have the ones from ToM on their site, or Google isn't giving them to me... so have

My own attempts at making vestiges in Avengers Apple Pie, Classic Horror Pumpkin Spice, Illyahr Lemon Burst, Dark Side Chocolate flavors. No those are not all the vestiges I've made, I just got tired of linking them in the guise of ice cream flavors.



This is correct for Tenebrous, and arguably Amon, you might even could argue for Eurynome for 'titan' = god, but this really isn't right. For example Geryon was the only Lord of the Nine loyal to Asmodeus during the Reckoning (for which Asmodeus killed him via power suck), Balam was a worshiper of Olidammra who stole their own soul from their god in the ultimate act of worship, Haagenti was a hill giantess who used magic to deceive Thrymm and was cursed for it.

Don't forget mystra the goddess that got ganked on the way into 4e.

[Zaydos]

Don't forget mystra the goddess that got ganked on the way into 4e.

Was Mystra made as an official 3.5 vestige? Relatedly Karsus, the dude who attempted to eat Mystra became a vestige after he exploded.

[ryu]

Was Mystra made as an official 3.5 vestige? Relatedly Karsus, the dude who attempted to eat Mystra became a vestige after he exploded.

No I mean she got vestiged on the way IN to 4e. That was one of the main fluff reasons for magic getting nerfed all over in that setting.

[Zaydos]

No I mean she got vestiged on the way IN to 4e. That was one of the main fluff reasons for magic getting nerfed all over in that setting.

I seriously think 4e should have been D&D Heroes or D&D Tactics or some such and a return to the AD&D/BCEMI twin line system, but fluff wise I think of it as a strange fever dream alternate reality.8

That said now I'm curious how possible it would be to back port Mystra to 3.5.

Oh and Primus is sort of a dead god. Sort of. I mean there's a new Primus, and Primuses die all the time, but at the same time they are gods and this Primus was killed in a super-special way so became a vestige and... what the end of 2e did to Modron fluff is dumb as *looks up*

But still most are not gods, though several were mortals on the cusp of godhood (Zagan who made the mistake of killing all his worshipers right as he was ascending, Acererak who attempted to become the Grand Lord of the Negative Material Plane, Ashardalon, the aforementioned Karsus), still most are just sort of tragic figures like Paimon who was just some dude good at dancing and ganked by jealous nobles who cut off his limbs and murdered him so he rose back as a dude with swords for limbs and killed them then disappeared into vestigehood.

*By which I mean I enjoyed it when I played it despite the DMs (my 2 worst DMs of all time were 4e), but it felt like a very different game than D&D, and this is coming from someone who had sequentially played BCEMI, AD&D, 2e, 3.0, and 3.5 and never had them feel like a break, and a lot of the hate it gets isn't due to low quality but just due to playing differently than expected (5e in my very limited experience manages to feel the most like 'D&D' of any I've played but I prefer 3.5), and due to 3.5 still having been popular enough to sell for a bit longer (and appealing to a different set of gaming needs).

[illyahr]

Hey, let's not forget Acererak, the demi-lich who created the Tomb of Horrors in an attempt to fuse with the Negative Energy plane. A cult started worshipping him so when he was finally destroyed, it slingshoted him outside the cosmic wheel.

[ryu]

Hey, let's not forget Acererak, the demi-lich who created the Tomb of Horrors in an attempt to fuse with the Negative Energy plane. A cult started worshipping him so when he was finally destroyed, it slingshoted him outside the cosmic wheel.

Anyone else noticing a pattern? Pretty much every vestage is either a god, someone worshipped as a god, someone who was about to become a god, someone who royally screwed a god over, or some combination of the above. I mean of the canon vestiges what percentage DON'T meet any of those criteria?