The artificer returns

[samcifer]

TBH, I hate that they got rid of the gunsmith variation. I really liked that one and even got a chance to play it in a one-off session last year. I would've been okay with it being nerfed a bit, but to get rid of it entirely sucks.

[Rukelnikov]

The concerns are probably related to defense.

With Bladesinger, you can afford to focus strictly on Intelligence, allowing you to rock a crazy high AC for minimal cost.

With Eldritch Knight, you can afford to focus on Intelligence and keep Strength as your secondary. Strength is more efficient, in terms of both gold cost and stats, at lower values when it comes to determining AC. It's a better secondary/tertiary stat than Dexterity, hands down.

Note that with the Hexblade or Monk Shillelagh builds, nothing that they gain from having a mental attack stat will actually improve their survivability. A Warlock still needs to rely on Dexterity, and the Monk's defensive stats are unchanged by going from Dexterity to Wisdom.

Consider how powerful/common Paladin levels with Hexblade are. Now expect the same thing with Eldritch Knights and Artificers, except now it's less Divine Smite and more Sentinel+Shield. So that's going to be...fun.

I agree, except the Bladesinger bit, you still need to pump Dex to get good armor since light is the only you can wear, and unless its a low magic campaign where getting gear may become difficult, getting 3 more lvls in Wizard seems like the better option IMO.

[Man_Over_Game]

TBH, I hate that they got rid of the gunsmith variation. I really liked that one and even got a chance to play it in a one-off session last year. I would've been okay with it being nerfed a bit, but to get rid of it entirely sucks.

There is a small mention of gun stuff in a sidebar near the front of the UA. Basically, it says that if guns are in your games, Artificers gain proficiency in them. Beyond that, I'd just use the Artillerist and replace the word "Wand" with "Firearm".

So now your pistol has two modes:

• Kill it
• Kill it (WITH FIRE)

I agree, except the Bladesinger bit, you still need to pump Dex to get good armor since light is the only you can wear, and unless its a low magic campaign where getting gear may become difficult, getting 3 more lvls in Wizard seems like the better option IMO.

That's a possibility, but you could just choose to not be a melee combatant for 2 fights. Play it like you would a Barbarian: Aggressive when you can, caution the few times you can't. In this case, "caution" simply means Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern, the same stuff any other Wizard would be doing.

[Rukelnikov]

That's a possibility, but you could just choose to not be a melee combatant for 2 fights. Play it like you would a Barbarian: Aggressive when you can, caution the few times you can't. In this case, "caution" simply means Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern, the same stuff any other Wizard would be doing.

Yeah. Much to my dismay Bladesingers are more caster than melee :(

[samcifer]

Yeah. Much to my dismay Bladesingers are more caster than melee :(

It's the low hp and needing to also boost strength or dex for hitting and damage that make bladesingers so poor. If they had a hp boost and could use intelligence for their weapon attacks they'd be worthwhile.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Consider how powerful/common Paladin levels with Hexblade are. Now expect the same thing with Eldritch Knights and Artificers, except now it's less Divine Smite and more Sentinel+Shield. So that's going to be...fun.

Paladin/Hexblade is common because it can reach a more than viable power curve by level 3. They have the option to start Hexblade and have become (S)ingle (A)bility (D)ependent right out of character creation, at level 1.

Artificers, even without multiclassing, cannot make use of martial fighting using their intelligence until level 3. It's not much better for a prospective EK who has chosen to start as a fighter for its proficiencies.

Early levels are a big deal, unless you're starting at a level where those synergies are already "unlocked" you risk a higher chance of an early death committing to eventually being a skilled martial, but for now being an only slightly more durable wizard with worse spell slot economy and less versatile offensive cantrip options.

Hexblade is powerful because it takes so little commitment and synergizes with 3 of the classes available in 5e, one of which being Paladin who many argue is only competing with Moon Druids in the "most mechanically powerful class" competition. Artificer requires substantially more commitment in comparison and only truly synergizes with 1 out of 12, because intelligence is not used often in this edition. I don't think it hurts the game to incentivize having less characters dump intelligence.

It's easy to forget that prior to SCAG, EK was fairly mediocre. It was more efficient (and probably still is) to be only just smart enough to read and just roll with wizard spells that don't require your intelligence at all. Shield doesn't require you to be smart, Booming Blade doesn't require you to be smart, GFB is only marginally benefited by how smart you are. I just don't see the correlation between Charisma, where the classes using it gain so much from being able to use it exclusively and Intelligence where Wizards have sat alone in prioritizing it since the editions release.

Just a small nitpick as well, being able to use intelligence as their primary stat doesn't make them any more effective at Sentinel+Shield or War Caster+Booming Blade shenanigans than they would have been without it.

I feel a disclaimer after that wall of text is warranted: This is my opinion, I'm not trying to say that anyone is wrong for disagreeing.

[Rukelnikov]

It's the low hp and needing to also boost strength or dex for hitting and damage that make bladesingers so poor. If they had a hp boost and could use intelligence for their weapon attacks they'd be worthwhile.

My main problem is their lack of damage, I feel they are kinda forced to dip 2 lvls of Pally to be relevant later on.

[jas61292]

I struggling to see how attacking with Int on a halfcaster is more OP than attacking Cha (for double damage I think) on a fullcaster.

Its not. That doesn't mean its a good, balanced idea. It just means the Hexblade should never have been published. Hexblade the only published subclass outright banned from my group's table, and I'd bet we are hardly the only group to feel that way.

Int for attack may not be terrible by itself, at level 3, but it is a potentially unbalancing mechanic on a subclass that does not need it when it is totally focused on being a better beastmaster.

[GlenSmash!]

Its not. That doesn't mean its a good, balanced idea. It just means the Hexblade should never have been published. Hexblade the only published subclass outright banned from my group's table, and I'd bet we are hardly the only group to feel that way.

Int for attack may not be terrible by itself, at level 3, but it is a potentially unbalancing mechanic on a subclass that does not need it when it is totally focused on being a better beastmaster.

Ugh. I could cut the pet part right out of it, or at least limit it to a single subclass. Maybe a couple of subclasses.

[Man_Over_Game]

Just a small nitpick as well, being able to use intelligence as their primary stat doesn't make them any more effective at Sentinel+Shield or War Caster+Booming Blade shenanigans than they would have been without it.

I feel a disclaimer after that wall of text is warranted: This is my opinion, I'm not trying to say that anyone is wrong for disagreeing.

You make some really good points, especially about the level considerations.

The reason I mentioned the Shield + Sentinel combo is because an Eldritch Knight will have much more capacity to use those things. Artificer will grant the EK more low level spell slots, and the Companion will work well with Sentinel. It's not directly related to EK, but it does mean that the EK will have less of a requirement for ASIs (as a small investment into Strength is all that'd be needed to rank up AC).

I could see an Battle Smith 4, Eldritch Knight 16 build, grabbing War Caster, Sentinel, Polearm Master and Spell Sniper. Lots of possible shenanigans.

[Kane0]

I don't think the Int to attack/damage is bad on it's own, it's just that the Battle Smith gets so many nice things. It's cherry picking from the Hexblade, Ranger and Paladin.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't think the Int to attack/damage is bad on it's own, it's just that the Battle Smith gets so many nice things. It's cherry picking from the Hexblade, Ranger and Paladin.

This, I agree with. It's just a bit too versatile in what it does. Nothing that can't be fixed in the future.

[Wildarm]

Another build idea GWM Battle Smith. This one working off the Help action of the Iron Guardian. Probably best combined with an Elf for Elven Accuracy

High Elf Battle Smith 8
Str 8 Dex 16 Con 15 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8
Cantrip: Mage Hand
ASI: Elven Accuracy(+1 Int), GWM, +1 Int/Con, +2 Int

Infusions:
+1 Half Plate
+1 Glaive

Bonus Action - Command IG to use Help Action
2 Attacks with 10' reach and one with Triple Advantage /w GWM - 1d10+4+1d6(Arcane Weapon)+10(GWM) = 46 damage average with a very good chance to hit for first strike.
Your AC is not that great till level 12 when it should jump to a respectable 20(+2 Half Plate + Cloak of Protection) with your IG forcing disadvantage on one attack a round.

Can easily switch to a long bow + Arcane Weapon to have a reasonable ranged attack too.

[Anderlith]

Anyone else want to see an All Artificer Party?

Battlesmith for the Fighter
Artillerist for the Mage
Alchemist for the Cleric
Archivist for the Rogue

Also, I highly disagree with people wanting to nerf Battlesmith. They don’t have a d10HD like most frontliners, they don’t come online until far later than Hexblades & Bladesingers. The Iron Defender isn’t a “full” pet. None of the Artificers have a “pet” in the sense everyone is making it out to be. The Artificer had Craft Homunculus as a class ability from the beginning, as well as introducing a line of new Homunculus types for a variety of roles. I love the direction the Artificer has taken. Though the Artillerist needs a “not cantrip” like the Archivist for really good blast damage & the turret would be better styled as the flying crossbow Homunculus from Eberron.

[Rukelnikov]

Anyone else want to see an All Artificer Party?

Battlesmith for the Fighter
Artillerist for the Mage
Alchemist for the Cleric
Archivist for the Rogue

Also, I highly disagree with people wanting to nerf Battlesmith. They don’t have a d10HD like most frontliners, they don’t come online until far later than Hexblades & Bladesingers. The Iron Defender isn’t a “full” pet. None of the Artificers have a “pet” in the sense everyone is making it out to be. The Artificer had Craft Homunculus as a class ability from the beginning, as well as introducing a line of new Homunculus types for a variety of roles. I love the direction the Artificer has taken. Though the Artillerist needs a “not cantrip” like the Archivist for really good blast damage & the turret would be better styled as the flying crossbow Homunculus from Eberron.

By lvl 2 they are very much online.

+1 weapon and armor, shield, 14 Dex, arcane weapon:

AC: 19
Rapier: +5, damage 1d8+3+1d6(11)

By lvl 3 they should be able to craft half plate, and switch to Int as attack stat:

AC: 20
Attack: +6, 1d8+4+1d6(13)

And that's for melee, a ranged Vhuman starting with XBE, is likely amongst the best 2nd lvl ranged.

AC: 19
HXB: +5, 2x 2d6+3(10), 20 damage average, bypass resistance to nonmag.

[Anderlith]

By lvl 2 they are very much online.

+1 weapon and armor, shield, 14 Dex, arcane weapon:

AC: 19
Rapier: +5, damage 1d8+3+1d6(11)

By lvl 3 they should be able to craft half plate, and switch to Int as attack stat:

AC: 20
Attack: +6, 1d8+4+1d6(13)

And that's for melee, a ranged Vhuman starting with XBE, is likely amongst the best 2nd lvl ranged.

AC: 19
HXB: +5, 2x 2d6+3(10), 20 damage average, bypass resistance to nonmag.

How are you going to wield that Rapier at level 2? Trade that for a mace, or since you seem to want a dex melee, a dagger

[Makorel]

Pretty much every Artificer can take crossbow expert, enchant it to +1 or 2 and pre-apply an Arcane Weapon to do damage that's well above baseline. Perhaps Int to weapon attacks is unnecessary for the Battle Smith, but I appreciate the weapon variety it opens up without having to pray to the dice gods for good rolls on strength in addition to int dex and con.

The Iron Defender's bonus action scaling attack also lowers the opportunity cost of not taking crossbow expert, adding more incentive to pick up other weapons. Why can't the Beastmaster's companion attacks also be a bonus action, or have 5 HP per level like these companions do? I come from the land of video games so perhaps I'm spoiled by how easy it is to patch an imbalance.

Also Battle Smith is the only Artificer that doesn't have to make the uncomfortable choice of doing good weapon damage or raising their main stat, and that's important because for some of these subclasses the Int damage abilities they get don't compare to the Artificer's weapon damage potential. Artillerist I think can still do fine because they've got a good selection of damage dealing leveled spells as well as their turret on top but Alchemist and Archivist have to make the hard call because they're relying on cantrip damage if they focus on Int.

I want to talk in depth about Information Overload. IO forces a good saving throw, has a good damage type, you can smite off of it and you add your Int-mod to it but even still the average damage is below par because it doesn't get save for half, and you can't try 2 or 3 times per round to get that smite damage like Paladin can. It's better than most cantrips but still not in the ball park of Agonizing Eldritch Blast unless you burn spell slots to power it up and at that point you would be better off using those slots for leveled spells like most cantrip classes, or I would say that if you had good damage spells to use them on like Artillerist does. Archivist is probably the weakest of the subclasses because you have to use your action and bonus action for this ability where other Artificers get their companion ability on top of their regular action, although maybe that's intentional considering the utility it gets.

[Rukelnikov]

How are you going to wield that Rapier at level 2? Trade that for a mace, or since you seem to want a dex melee, a dagger

True.

Dagger is an important diminish in damage, I still think they are viable since lvl 2 thx to their AC.

[Wildarm]

I want to talk in depth about Information Overload. IO forces a good saving throw, has a good damage type, you can smite off of it and you add your Int-mod to it but even still the average damage is below par because it doesn't get save for half, and you can't try 2 or 3 times per round to get that smite damage like Paladin can. It's better than most cantrips but still not in the ball park of Agonizing Eldritch Blast unless you burn spell slots to power it up and at that point you would be better off using those slots for leveled spells like most cantrip classes, or I would say that if you had good damage spells to use them on like Artillerist does. Archivist is probably the weakest of the subclasses because you have to use your action and bonus action for this ability where other Artificers get their companion ability on top of their regular action, although maybe that's intentional considering the utility it gets.

IO definitely is an interesting ability. Intelligence saves on monsters are fairly easy to predict. You can guess who will have a -4, 0 and +4(or more). Say Tier 2 - DC 15 will hit 90% of the time on beasts and un-intelligent monsters. 70% against most other creatures and maybe 50% vs very intelligent opponents. The raw damage isn't that high 2d8+Int but solid enough and gives advantage to the next attack on the monster which you could consider boosting the effective damage by maybe 25% if you consider how often advantage would change an allies miss into a hit. Overall if you did the math I suspect it would be very competitive with Toll the Dead on a Cleric with potent cantrip or Firebolt on a Dragon Sorcerer. Still no EB but you have the option to burn spell slots and smite for extra damage(similar to quickening a cantrip) and at level 14, stun your opponent. I think this cantrip plus some low level spell slots can single handedly stunlock something with low intelligence. -2 to -4 to Int saves are quite common.

Of more interest to me is still the crazy range you can cast spells at with your MAM with no real fear of repercussions. Phantasmal Killer is particularly insidious to use though it requires a lot of failed will saves. 4d10+5 damage per round that no one can see other than a faint glowing thing of your choice. Modify memory is also particularly nasty to use from 300' away. Kill the king in his bed with psychic damage, modify the queens memory that she did not see a glowing thing and that he had a heart attack.

You won't be winning any DPS wars with the Archivist but you will do consistent damage, have some nova and generally get to help your team every round. Plus have some pretty nifty tricks up your sleeve.

[Trustypeaches]

On a side note, I’m very much happy with the Artificer’s revised spell list, although I still feel the Alchemist’s Spell List needs some help (mass cure Wounds, polymorph, contagion..?)

I also think the “Use an Object” Action should be added to the list of commands that can be given to the Homunculus, so that it can deliver potions as a bonus action.

[Makorel]

IO definitely is an interesting ability. Intelligence saves on monsters are fairly easy to predict. You can guess who will have a -4, 0 and +4(or more). Say Tier 2 - DC 15 will hit 90% of the time on beasts and un-intelligent monsters. 70% against most other creatures and maybe 50% vs very intelligent opponents. The raw damage isn't that high 2d8+Int but solid enough and gives advantage to the next attack on the monster which you could consider boosting the effective damage by maybe 25% if you consider how often advantage would change an allies miss into a hit. Overall if you did the math I suspect it would be very competitive with Toll the Dead on a Cleric with potent cantrip or Firebolt on a Dragon Sorcerer. Still no EB but you have the option to burn spell slots and smite for extra damage(similar to quickening a cantrip) and at level 14, stun your opponent. I think this cantrip plus some low level spell slots can single handedly stunlock something with low intelligence. -2 to -4 to Int saves are quite common.

Of more interest to me is still the crazy range you can cast spells at with your MAM with no real fear of repercussions. Phantasmal Killer is particularly insidious to use though it requires a lot of failed will saves. 4d10+5 damage per round that no one can see other than a faint glowing thing of your choice. Modify memory is also particularly nasty to use from 300' away. Kill the king in his bed with psychic damage, modify the queens memory that she did not see a glowing thing and that he had a heart attack.

You won't be winning any DPS wars with the Archivist but you will do consistent damage, have some nova and generally get to help your team every round. Plus have some pretty nifty tricks up your sleeve.

Maybe I am overestimating how good monsters' Int saves are. It's kind of a weird perfect storm of small qualities that I didn't think add up to more than the sum of their parts.

I wasn't sure how to quantify the advantage on the next hit so I left it out of my analysis to focus on the raw damage, but I will say the stun effect is obviously powerful though it comes on pretty late.

For the record I don't consider Toll the Dead with Potent Cantrip or Firebolt with Draconic Ancestry to be good power. When I was playing my Dragon Sorc I spent most turns casting Fireball with Draconic Ancestry. It worked so well I melted down my 1st and 2nd level spell slots so I could cast more Fireball. For the time I played the character since I got Fireball at level 5 up until level 7 I had no reason to cast a single cantrip. Archivist obviously has more reason to since they don't have many good damage spells and can squeeze IO further with the extra damage kicker.

The Archivist's Psychic Damage is also comparable to Draconic Ancestry for damage spells, but you don't get the AOE of fireball to build off of. I did miss Phantasmal Killer in the spell list but I think more psychic spells would be nice. Phantasmal Force might actually be really great for doing damage over time with this ability.

[Spectrulus]

...The Archivist's Psychic Damage is also comparable to Draconic Ancestry for damage spells, but you don't get the AOE of fireball to build off of. I did miss Phantasmal Killer in the spell list but I think more psychic spells would be nice. Phantasmal Force might actually be really great for doing damage over time with this ability.

I could see it getting Synaptic Static, but then again probably not.

I find it most fascinating that the Archivist can through rests have any proficiency in skills they need.

I also appreciate that the Battle Smith makes a mechanical war pet, rather than going the +1hp/level route or something else. It helps the sub type be a more impressive melee force, by getting more HP, and basically capping at 3 attacks a round.

I wonder if artificers would be able to infuse their own pets?

[OvisCaedo]

I wonder if artificers would be able to infuse their own pets?

I don't think any of the infusions seem like they'd apply directly to a construct... But you could probably GIVE it some infused items. Its strength never scales naturally, but you could probably manage to swing a custom set of "gauntlets" for it to slap down some Ogre Power onto, or fit a hill giant belt if you get to a REALLY high level.

[Finback]

Soldier or Folk Hero both would work very well.

iirc, there's an entire film about a local kid who fought off two rogues who'd been plaguing his town for ages, using only gadgets he improvised from around the farmstead.

"Gnome Alone".

[Foxhound438]

Well, first of all, I'm most surprised they never took the time to ask anyone what they thought of the first one. Sure, they could come read the forum hot takes as well as anyone else, but a survey of the first version would have at least made them aware of some of the popular "sticking points". Prime example:

- It has 6 "-" levels and a few levels with what is essentially just ribbons on top of that. These levels coincide with either getting a new spell level or new infusion known. For comparison, other half-casters have 3 "-" levels.

This was a problem that could have very easily been addressed between versions, as it existed in the first and more than one person suggested matching the new infusion option level gate offs match those - levels, but WotC seems to have either missed that or for some reason are being dense about it.

(you mention also the alchemist having largely bad spells, and I agree. That's not the end of the problems here though, as I would like to see them get more utility than "lesser/greater resto once each as your features" at higher levels.)

And for another example of things that would have been caught in the survey, the THP turret is still mathematically overtuned just about any way you look at it.

- I still don't like the alchemical homunculous. A pet for every subclass is not necessary and I would argue is detrimental (takes up design space and makes subclasses less distinguishable rather than more)
- The later alchemist abilities are still relatively lacklustre
- Archivist really needs toning down. level 3 grants interchageable skills + super-familiar + uber-cantrip that can be smite boosted and gets better at 6 and 14, level 6 is interplanar communication, level 14 is 2nd level spell slot teleports.
- Battle Smith also needs toning down. You get a better beastmaster companion (which is fine, but if we can have this and it works then DO IT FOR THE RANGER THEN), Int to damage ala hexblade plus all the smite spells, IDS or actionless/resourceless heals at level 6 and an improvement to all of the above at level 14

Definitely agree about the alchemist, it should look more like it did in the first (1/3 caster) version than this... whatever it's supposed to be.

As for other subclasses, I don't think they're really overpowered that much. Archivist does get a "strictly better find familiar", but so does POTC warlock and no one takes that. The uber cantrip isn't any more uber than a cleric's sacred flame (and decidedly lacks something like spirit guardians on the class to bring up the sustained damage), and 2nd level spell slot teleports are pretty popular among most 3rd level casters anyways. Battle smith definitively doesn't get IDS and resourceless heals at level 6, it's int mod uses per long rest, and the companion being better than beastmaster's... well, it has to be, doesn't it. I really don't mind int to damage, I'm already used to the "why don't you save stats and take 2 levels of hexblade" meme. I'm especially not worried about all the smite spells, because first of all they compete with your bonus action to just making your dog attack, and second, most of the ones you get aren't that great by my estimation.

Anyways, there are issues that fell through the cracks that no one bothered to check for, but I am happy with this batch of add-ons at least. If I were to build one it'd probably be a battle smith since its companion is the least convoluted and weird, and the non-smite spells aren't terrible. Kind of a shame that the pet's AC doesn't ever scale, as is you'd end up with a thing that's just going to get hit no matter what.

[Constructman]

SNIP

I think they mentioned that they would be working on adding more stuff for the Artificer before soliciting feedback and changig stuff (so why dud they remove Shield of Faith from the spell list??????). Given that the UA survey for it isn't out yet, that seens to be what happened. But now it's out, so the survey should be coming out shortly.

[Arkhios]

I think they mentioned that they would be working on adding more stuff for the Artificer before soliciting feedback and changig stuff (so why dud they remove Shield of Faith from the spell list??????). Given that the UA survey for it isn't out yet, that seens to be what happened. But now it's out, so the survey should be coming out shortly.

If I had to guess, Shield of Faith implies the reason why. Arcane magic isn't about faith.

[Damon_Tor]

So Spell Storing Item still doesn't appear to require anybody's concentration as neither the artificer nor the end user is actually "casting" the spell in question. 10 Uses of a level 1 or 2 spell per day with no concentration is pretty solid.

[Theodoxus]

My complaint: All spells known makes wizards cry. Should have a spellbook, or at the very least, some kludged up version of a spellbook, like a mechanics manual or etched metal plates... something. All spells known makes no sense. They aren't getting these from some outside or divine source... they just what, traveled around before taking a level; a soldier or folk hero or hermit and just poof! "Huh, I suddenly know so many spells!"

My likes: I hope they revise the beast master to follow the battle smith. Heck, I'd be happy with a "familiar-esque" animal companion that's just a nature spirit in wolf form type thing. Makes just as much sense to be able to resurrect such a critter with a spell slot expenditure and can heal it the same way. A physical manifestation of a spiritual being can let you do exactly the same stuff as the battle smith's pet - magical attack, boosts to abilities, etc. (I find it odd that the Iron Defender has +4 to their perception, their perception increases with caster PB, but their passive is 10. With a 10 Wis, it should be +2 and 12; so... yeah.)

I also really really like they're taking some concepts from 4E that I've been using for months now. Personally, the artificier as built out, makes a better example of the next iteration of D&D (5.5 or 6th) as it introduces a few too many new mechanics that aren't in the base game, but I'm happy to see WotC at least think about incorporating these ideas.

Overall: The class definitely needs a bit of refinement. It's a cleric/mage/thief class that brings too much from each into the fold. And the subclasses bring the class over the top. The base would be sufficient, honestly.

[jaappleton]

Put me into the camp that believes Battle Smith should be split into two:

Iron Defender focused, and... Red Mage focused, I suppose. Because that’s what it is, it’s totally a Red Mage. The Battle pet should be it’s own thing.