Serini is a moron

[Dragonus45]

Well, at least you spelled it out: "Serini is dumb because she's not doing exactly what I want her to do."

No, she is dumb for limiting her options in a crisis based on her personal stubbornness and inability to let go of her biases and preconceived notions. It just so happens that a lot of us would like her to do that. You appear to have worked through the problem backwards here.

[Dion]

No, she is dumb for limiting her options in a crisis based on her personal stubbornness and inability to let go of her biases and preconceived notions.

I agree she is doing those things. I don’t agree that makes her dumb.

[danielxcutter]

Is my account haunted or am I getting subscription notifications about posts that aren't in the thread when I check?

[Psyren]

No, she is dumb for limiting her options in a crisis based on her personal stubbornness and inability to let go of her biases and preconceived notions. It just so happens that a lot of us would like her to do that. You appear to have worked through the problem backwards here.

^ This.

I agree she is doing those things. I don’t agree that makes her dumb.

That would be our impasse, yes.

[KorvinStarmast]

They destroyed Xykon at the end of the first book. That would have been it if they had known what a phylactery was.

And there'd have been no story.

You are significantly more optimistic about the Order's chances of defeating Redcloak and the MitD at that point than I am.

MiTD is a bit of a wild card, yes.

But it's still not the original claim you made, which was the Order is the only one that has come close to stopping Xykon.

Soon's ghost army did it (and about had Xykon and Redcloak down for the count) until Miko screwed the pooch.

The tracking the Scribble agreed to was a simple "is the gate broken?" yes/no. To know that O-Chul tried to destroy a gate, and that his personal katana was used to destroy one, requires another source of information.

Concur.

I never understand why Dorukan and Lirian's "secret affair" constitute as a breach of "no interference" rule.

True love knows no such rules. Elan could tell us that.

Because Girard and Dorukan hated Soon so much that she wanted to make sure the Scribblers wouldn't end up killing each other, so the vow was to never see each other again, period.

Which places the problem directly in the hands of a pair of spell casting egomaniacs.

I do wonder if they did so knowing full well Soon and only Soon would keep it.

Given Soon's honorableness, and their (particularly Girard's) lack thereof, likely but AFAIK unconfirmed.

Point or not, the actual agreement and it's description seems to imply no contact whatsoever: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Which is almost carte blanche, narratively, for someone to break that promise. Elan could tell us all about that.

Serini was dealing with a roomfull of type-A-alpha-males in conflict. Getting any agreement out of them at all was an achievement.

[theNater]

Given that she's the only "Gate Defender" left, I didn't think I needed to spell out that part of it It's blatantly obvious I want them to work together...

Yes it is, and I don't object to that position. What I object to is the specific false claim that the Order has nearly stopped Xykon; a claim you don't actually need to support your overall point.

I'd say it's far more likely that she has detailed intel on what happened in the throne room, since that's the tracking we know the Scribble agreed to.

Soon, the paladin, was literally the only one who actually followed that agreement. Dorukan and Lirian were bumping uglies, Kraagor was dead and Girard lied about his gate completely. All it would take for Serini to know what was happening in that throne room - which she did - would be one more lie.

Your argument that Serini's information is limited to the throne room is based on that being the tracking the Scribble agreed to. But since that's not the agreement, and you believe she's not adhering to it anyway, why would she limit her information-gathering to the throne room?

[KorvinStarmast]

But since that's not the agreement, and you believe she's not adhering to it anyway, why would she limit her information-gathering to the throne room?

The next to last panel of strip 1244 answers that.

[Psyren]

Yes it is, and I don't object to that position. What I object to is the specific false claim that the Order has nearly stopped Xykon; a claim you don't actually need to support your overall point.

Fine, "come closer than every other group who has tried, including Serini herself." Whatever.

Your argument that Serini's information is limited to the throne room is based on that being the tracking the Scribble agreed to. But since that's not the agreement, and you believe she's not adhering to it anyway, why would she limit her information-gathering to the throne room?

Because it's more logical that she was watching the Gate (which she cares about) rather than a random paladin she wouldn't have known was even important before seeing him scouting the North Pole.

My point is that she knows the details of what happened regarding Soon's Gate. You're assuming she is keeping tabs on O-Chul, and I was offering a competing hypothesis, one that I feel is more likely.

[hungrycrow]

Because it's more logical that she was watching the Gate (which she cares about) rather than a random paladin she wouldn't have known was even important before seeing him scouting the North Pole.

My point is that she knows the details of what happened regarding Soon's Gate. You're assuming she is keeping tabs on O-Chul, and I was offering a competing hypothesis, one that I feel is more likely.

I think the fact that she brings up O'chul's personal katana indicates that she saw O'chul's conversation with Hinjo. I'm not sure why she would bring up that detail specifically except to throw O'chul's exact wording in his face.

[Psyren]

I think the fact that she brings up O'chul's personal katana indicates that she saw O'chul's conversation with Hinjo. I'm not sure why she would bring up that detail specifically except to throw O'chul's exact wording in his face.

Or because she saw Miko use his katana to smash the gem - which happened in the throne room.

[theNater]

Fine, "come closer than every other group who has tried, including Serini herself." Whatever.

Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard are still not members of the Order, no matter how much that would benefit your position.

Because it's more logical that she was watching the Gate (which she cares about) rather than a random paladin she wouldn't have known was even important before seeing him scouting the North Pole.

My point is that she knows the details of what happened regarding Soon's Gate. You're assuming she is keeping tabs on O-Chul, and I was offering a competing hypothesis, one that I feel is more likely.

I'm suggesting she started keeping tabs on O-Chul after seeing him try to destroy a gate, which was rather significantly before he headed to the North Pole.

[hungrycrow]

Or because she saw Miko use his katana to smash the gem - which happened in the throne room.

Yeah she would have known about it, but it would be a pretty minor detail to bring up. I sort of see her comment as "oh, you want me to rephrase your promise so you can exact word your way out of it again? nice try."

[Psyren]

Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard are still not members of the Order, no matter how much that would benefit your position.

So the Order had no positive impact on that conflict at all? If Xykon and Redcloak were able to walk into that throne room with all their backup, I believe Soon would have been overwhelmed.

I'm suggesting she started keeping tabs on O-Chul after seeing him try to destroy a gate, which was rather significantly before he headed to the North Pole.

I'm well aware what you're suggesting. We'll have to wait and see.

[hungrycrow]

So the Order had no positive impact on that conflict at all? If Xykon and Redcloak were able to walk into that throne room with all their backup, I believe Soon would have been overwhelmed.

I'm not sure the backup would have mattered since only Redcloak and Xykon could affect the ghosts. However Redcloak getting there a little earlier might have saved Xykon enough damage to turn the fight around.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure the backup would have mattered since only Redcloak and Xykon could affect the ghosts. However Redcloak getting there a little earlier might have saved Xykon enough damage to turn the fight around.

They had at least three other clerics on their team. Moreover, Xykon got beat up so badly in the first place because Redcloak ran out of healing harming for him. So yes, more clerical backup could have easily made the difference up there, and the Order kept that from happening.

[hungrycrow]

They had at least three other clerics on their team. Moreover, Xykon got beat up so badly in the first place because Redcloak ran out of healing harming for him. So yes, more clerical backup could have easily made the difference up there, and the Order kept that from happening.

You have a point about the usefulness of healing, but Redcloak did have an extra cleric when he came in, and dismissed him on account of his low level. I think the same thing would have happened if there had been more clerics.

I also forgot about the three Xykon lookalikes Redcloak made. They had enough magical power to be helpful, and Redcloak wouldn't care about their safety.

[Psyren]

You have a point about the usefulness of healing, but Redcloak did have an extra cleric when he came in, and dismissed him on account of his low level. I think the same thing would have happened if there had been more clerics.

I also forgot about the three Xykon lookalikes Redcloak made. They had enough magical power to be helpful, and Redcloak wouldn't care about their safety.

The Huecuva was indeed one of the clerics I was thinking of. As it was under Redcloak's absolute control, he wouldn't have dismissed it like he did Tsukiko, but the Order prevented that by destroying it.

[theNater]

So the Order had no positive impact on that conflict at all?

I'm perfectly content to sit at "the Order has significantly hindered Xykon on multiple occasions" without going to any hyperbolic extremes.

[hungrycrow]

The Huecuva was indeed one of the clerics I was thinking of. As it was under Redcloak's absolute control, he wouldn't have dismissed it like he did Tsukiko, but the Order prevented that by destroying it.

I see, I was thinking of the other hobgoblin clerics. I totally agree then.

[Ruck]

And you say your positions are any different?

I have no idea what this post is supposed to mean. The only interpretation I can come up with is that you think I've been saying "Serini is doing exactly what I want her to do," which is nowhere close to what I've been saying.

[Psyren]

I'm perfectly content to sit at "the Order has significantly hindered Xykon on multiple occasions" without going to any hyperbolic extremes.

We can, if you want, give the Order some credit for being in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon.

Your claim was no less hyperbolic, or I suppose that should be hypobolic? Pot, meet kettle, etc.

[theNater]

Your claim was no less hyperbolic, or I suppose that should be hypobolic? Pot, meet kettle, etc.

My claim was exactly correct: the order was in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon. Moreover, I am still willing to give them credit for that. You're the only one trying to force it into "the Order gets all the credit" or "the Order gets no credit".

[Psyren]

My claim was exactly correct: the order was in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon.

Denotatively, yes. So were Kubota's ninjas. Your implication was that the Order didn't contribute in a meaningful way, when without them chances are Xykon would have grabbed that Gate and the world might have been unraveled right then and there rather than the gods dealing with TDO's blackmail plan.

[JonahFalcon]

The problem is there is a massive gap between 'don't trust the Order' and 'don't communicate with them at all and actively attack them.

She wants to dose 'em with Amnesia. Do you think the Order will allow that to happen?

Denotatively, yes. So were Kubota's ninjas. Your implication was that the Order didn't contribute in a meaningful way, when without them chances are Xykon would have grabbed that Gate and the world might have been unraveled right then and there rather than the gods dealing with TDO's blackmail plan.

Actually, had Miko never been sent to bring the Order and start thinking they were evil, she'd have never destroyed the gate, and Soon and the ghost-paladins would have finished Xykon and Redcloak off.

[Dion]

My claim is the most hyperbolic claim. Ever.

[Psyren]

Actually, had Miko never been sent to bring the Order and start thinking they were evil, she'd have never destroyed the gate, and Soon and the ghost-paladins would have finished Xykon and Redcloak off.

That What If goes much further. Without the Order, the army would have been utterly steamrolled (Xykon would have still had his dragon even) and Soon would have faced a Redcloak and Xykon with a lot more spells, plus the ability to step outside the throne room if things went south without getting pounced on by high-level adventurers.

[RatElemental]

That What If goes much further. Without the Order, the army would have been utterly steamrolled (Xykon would have still had his dragon even) and Soon would have faced a Redcloak and Xykon with a lot more spells, plus the ability to step outside the throne room if things went south without getting pounced on by high-level adventurers.

Haley was also the one who figured out the shell game. If she hadn't pointed that out Sangwaan would probably not have used true seeing and spotted Xykon on his way to the throne room, and Durkon wouldn't have dispelled his invisibility. The army would have been busy fighting the fake Xykons, who would have wrecked shop on their own without the order (who took out all 3 of them). Hinjo would have been assassinated by the guy let out of prison to help with the defense. The breach in the south wall wouldn't have been patched by V turning the pikemen huge, V wouldn't have been there to dismiss the summoned elementals, really the whole thing would have gone far differently.

[Liquor Box]

Surely the time in the comic when Xykon came the closest to being defeated was when he was killed at Dorukon's gate, rather than when he was almost killed by the paladins

[danielxcutter]

Nah, Redcloak still had the phylactery. Back with Soon, he knew that Redcloak's holy symbol was the phylactery and that he could tell people who came in once he'd destroyed Xykon's body and slain Redcloak.

[Liquor Box]

Nah, Redcloak still had the phylactery. Back with Soon, he knew that Redcloak's holy symbol was the phylactery and that he could tell people who came in once he'd destroyed Xykon's body and slain Redcloak.

Ah, fair enough