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Thread: WandaVision

  1. - Top - End - #511
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Did not watch episode 8 yet.

    But Moviebob posted an interesting theory.

    Spoiler: Episode 7 Spoilers
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    He pointed out that Agatha's magic being purple is tied to her flowers all being purple.

    He then notices that all of Wanda's flowers are red, tied to her magic color.

    Then, he points out that there is another character obsessed with flowers in the show. The blonde alpha bitch Dottie Jones . Who has *yellow flowers*. There is one character in the marvel comics who also has yellow magic power. Arcana Jones.

    Whose husband name is ALSO Phil.


  2. - Top - End - #512
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Did not watch episode 8 yet.

    But Moviebob posted an interesting theory.

    Spoiler: Episode 7 Spoilers
    Show

    He pointed out that Agatha's magic being purple is tied to her flowers all being purple.

    He then notices that all of Wanda's flowers are red, tied to her magic color.

    Then, he points out that there is another character obsessed with flowers in the show. The blonde alpha bitch Dottie Jones . Who has *yellow flowers*. There is one character in the marvel comics who also has yellow magic power. Arcana Jones.

    Whose husband name is ALSO Phil.

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    I'll admit, I hadn't even considered a Squadron Supreme character might show up. Seems kind of likely though.
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  3. - Top - End - #513
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    Spoiler: Episode 8-Really a spoiler-
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    So you're telling me that antagonizing a being of god-like power was a necessary step in your plan?
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    Well, if you're going to drain away their power for your own nefarious purposes, you do need them to point it in your direction. Antagonizing them makes that happen, and asking nicely seems like a low probability strategy, given the whole "nefarious purposes" thing.

  4. - Top - End - #514
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    okay, so
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    What confuses me here is Haywood

    Why would he say "Wanda stormed SWORD and took the Vision's body" when that never happened? Was he trying to sell Monica and the others on Wanda as a threat? We already have "Wanda is holding a town captive with her powers" for that. It seems like a completely unnecessary lie on his part.


    Yes, Haywood is shady and trigger-happy, but the two don't seem to be connected anymore. He's not being overly aggressive because he wants his toy back, he HAS his toy.

    So we're back to "Wanda is holding a town captive and Haywood objects to that" with a side order of "Haywood is able to use this situation to get Vision back online".

    So, Haywood is just pointlessly extra-evil. Whatever, he's not the point.

    The point is, it looks like we got some answers

    1) This is 100% Wanda's doing, as we expected. It seems the SPECIFICS are subconscious (She didn't actively choose to take the whole town), but she does seem invested in maintaining it.

    2) Agatha has been messing with things in order to try to figure out what is going on and figure out who Wanda really is.

    3) Wanda's powers appear to be innate, just activated/supercharged by the Mind Stone. No clue what's up with Pietro.


    IIRC, in the Comics, Scarlet Witch's Mutant Power is basically that she is naturally Really Really Good At Magic. Maybe she gave Pietro his powers?
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-02-26 at 11:01 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #515
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    okay, so
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    What confuses me here is Haywood

    Why would he say "Wanda stormed SWORD and took the Vision's body" when that never happened? Was he trying to sell Monica and the others on Wanda as a threat? We already have "Wanda is holding a town captive with her powers" for that. It seems like a completely unnecessary lie on his part.


    Yes, Haywood is shady and trigger-happy, but the two don't seem to be connected anymore. He's not being overly aggressive because he wants his toy back, he HAS his toy.

    So we're back to "Wanda is holding a town captive and Haywood objects to that" with a side order of "Haywood is able to use this situation to get Vision back online".

    So, Haywood is just pointlessly extra-evil. Whatever, he's not the point.

    The point is, it looks like we got some answers

    1) This is 100% Wanda's doing, as we expected. It seems the SPECIFICS are subconscious (She didn't actively choose to take the whole town), but she does seem invested in maintaining it.

    2) Agatha has been messing with things in order to try to figure out what is going on and figure out who Wanda really is.


    Spoiler: E8
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    Yeah, Haywood as the generic military bad bad guy is kind of the weak link in the story so far but the rest is good so it's whatever.
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  6. - Top - End - #516
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Spoiler: Episode 8
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    So... I'm not sure how i feel about the show going all "Sabrina the teenage witch" on us with 1700's era real-magic witches with spells and hexes and the like. I mean i suppose old superhumans could exist, but a whole bunch of em with all the same power? Ehh... Less invested in that to be honest. Think i would have preferred if Agatha was alone in her witchy ways and kind of invented the whole thing herself, maybe it was an early branch-off of Dr. Strange's magic (Which seems more based on math and science) or something. Having witches and covens and hexes and charms just feels really "High fantasy" to me, while up until this point the MCU has been pretty reliably "Low fantasy", with any magic being either a subset of science, ancient big-bang power, or significantly advanced technology.

    nooot sure I'm a fan of Wanda being a Witch either, like i know her hero name is "Scarlet witch" an all but you know what i mean, real magic-magic that she was apparently born with. I preferred her powers being more psychic then magical, as they were granted from the MIND stone, thus giving her MIND related powers, with no related abilities prior.

    Kind of feel like Wanda not stealing Vision's body kind of diminishes the story a bit too? Like I'm glad she's confirmed the one behind the hex and all, but having her not take the body kind of invalidates a lot of what's going on. Though i am interested in seeing what Zombie-vision from the post-credits scene can do, and whether or not he will be sapient or anything like the original vision at all. Perhaps he's a mindless "zombie" and will merge with Wanda's incarnation of vision to make a hybrid that's more like the original?

    i will say this. I hope they never explain where Agatha's coven's powers come from. sometimes you don't need explanations for stuff like that. Maybe explain Agatha's specific branch of powers (Please no Mephisto *Crosses fingers*) as she does seem to be an oddity even among them, but i feel like trying to explain the coven's powers will kind of ruin the "Magic" so to say.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-02-26 at 12:02 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #517
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Spoiler: Episode 8
    Show


    So... I'm not sure how i feel about the show going all "Sabrina the teenage witch" on us with 1700's era real-magic witches with spells and hexes and the like. I mean i suppose old superhumans could exist, but a whole bunch of em with all the same power? Ehh... Less invested in that to be honest. Think i would have preferred if Agatha was alone in her witchy ways and kind of invented the whole thing herself, maybe it was an early branch-off of Dr. Strange's magic (Which seems more based on math and science) or something. Having witches and covens and hexes and charms just feels really "High fantasy" to me, while up until this point the MCU has been pretty reliably "Low fantasy", with any magic being either a subset of science, ancient big-bang power, or significantly advanced technology.

    nooot sure I'm a fan of Wanda being a Witch either, like i know her hero name is "Scarlet witch" an all but you know what i mean, real magic-magic that she was apparently born with. I preferred her powers being more psychic then magical, as they were granted from the MIND stone, thus giving her MIND related powers, with no related abilities prior.

    Kind of feel like Wanda not stealing Vision's body kind of diminishes the story a bit too? Like I'm glad she's confirmed the one behind the hex and all, but having her not take the body kind of invalidates a lot of what's going on. Though i am interested in seeing what Zombie-vision from the post-credits scene can do, and whether or not he will be sapient or anything like the original vision at all. Perhaps he's a mindless "zombie" and will merge with Wanda's incarnation of vision to make a hybrid that's more like the original?

    i will say this. I hope they never explain where Agatha's coven's powers come from. sometimes you don't need explanations for stuff like that. Maybe explain Agatha's specific branch of powers (Please no Mephisto *Crosses fingers*) as she does seem to be an oddity even among them, but i feel like trying to explain the coven's powers will kind of ruin the "Magic" so to say.

    Spoiler
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    I have the feeling that the colour-coded magical powers will correlate with the infinity stones, with the different colours tapping into different streams of creation energy running through reality or something like that.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

  8. - Top - End - #518
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Spoiler: Episode 8
    Show


    So... I'm not sure how i feel about the show going all "Sabrina the teenage witch" on us with 1700's era real-magic witches with spells and hexes and the like. I mean i suppose old superhumans could exist, but a whole bunch of em with all the same power? Ehh... Less invested in that to be honest. Think i would have preferred if Agatha was alone in her witchy ways and kind of invented the whole thing herself, maybe it was an early branch-off of Dr. Strange's magic (Which seems more based on math and science) or something. Having witches and covens and hexes and charms just feels really "High fantasy" to me, while up until this point the MCU has been pretty reliably "Low fantasy", with any magic being either a subset of science, ancient big-bang power, or significantly advanced technology.

    nooot sure I'm a fan of Wanda being a Witch either, like i know her hero name is "Scarlet witch" an all but you know what i mean, real magic-magic that she was apparently born with. I preferred her powers being more psychic then magical, as they were granted from the MIND stone, thus giving her MIND related powers, with no related abilities prior.

    Kind of feel like Wanda not stealing Vision's body kind of diminishes the story a bit too? Like I'm glad she's confirmed the one behind the hex and all, but having her not take the body kind of invalidates a lot of what's going on. Though i am interested in seeing what Zombie-vision from the post-credits scene can do, and whether or not he will be sapient or anything like the original vision at all. Perhaps he's a mindless "zombie" and will merge with Wanda's incarnation of vision to make a hybrid that's more like the original?

    i will say this. I hope they never explain where Agatha's coven's powers come from. sometimes you don't need explanations for stuff like that. Maybe explain Agatha's specific branch of powers (Please no Mephisto *Crosses fingers*) as she does seem to be an oddity even among them, but i feel like trying to explain the coven's powers will kind of ruin the "Magic" so to say.
    Spoiler
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    Meanwhile I’m over here ecstatic as hell and trying hard not to do my happy dance that some actual, real, no BS, no wiggle room, MAGIC! Thank god they made Wanda a witch. Marvel has killed off the metaphorical wizard way to often in the MCU as it is.
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  9. - Top - End - #519
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
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    I have the feeling that the colour-coded magical powers will correlate with the infinity stones, with the different colours tapping into different streams of creation energy running through reality or something like that.
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    that could be neat. Feel like you'd want to get Captain Marvel in on it too though, just because she's also powered by an infinity stone. more power from the originals means more likely chance right?

    maybe Agatha got her specific branch of magic from an infinity stone too... then again while she might not have known it at the time, i feel like she might realize it now... idk...

    I'd be totally on board for having flashback shows / movies showing people getting powers from the reality, time and power stones though. Have Gamora come back with powers from the soul stone or something i guess.

    Infinity team.
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  10. - Top - End - #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Spoiler: Episode 8
    Show


    So... I'm not sure how i feel about the show going all "Sabrina the teenage witch" on us with 1700's era real-magic witches with spells and hexes and the like. I mean i suppose old superhumans could exist, but a whole bunch of em with all the same power? Ehh... Less invested in that to be honest. Think i would have preferred if Agatha was alone in her witchy ways and kind of invented the whole thing herself, maybe it was an early branch-off of Dr. Strange's magic (Which seems more based on math and science) or something. Having witches and covens and hexes and charms just feels really "High fantasy" to me, while up until this point the MCU has been pretty reliably "Low fantasy", with any magic being either a subset of science, ancient big-bang power, or significantly advanced technology.

    nooot sure I'm a fan of Wanda being a Witch either, like i know her hero name is "Scarlet witch" an all but you know what i mean, real magic-magic that she was apparently born with. I preferred her powers being more psychic then magical, as they were granted from the MIND stone, thus giving her MIND related powers, with no related abilities prior.

    Kind of feel like Wanda not stealing Vision's body kind of diminishes the story a bit too? Like I'm glad she's confirmed the one behind the hex and all, but having her not take the body kind of invalidates a lot of what's going on. Though i am interested in seeing what Zombie-vision from the post-credits scene can do, and whether or not he will be sapient or anything like the original vision at all. Perhaps he's a mindless "zombie" and will merge with Wanda's incarnation of vision to make a hybrid that's more like the original?

    i will say this. I hope they never explain where Agatha's coven's powers come from. sometimes you don't need explanations for stuff like that. Maybe explain Agatha's specific branch of powers (Please no Mephisto *Crosses fingers*) as she does seem to be an oddity even among them, but i feel like trying to explain the coven's powers will kind of ruin the "Magic" so to say.
    Spoiler: On Wanda's Powers
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    So, Doctor Strange is canon, which means Magic exists.

    The terminology is different, but my understanding of Comic Book Marvel Magic is, to use D&D terms, mostly various flavors of Wizard.
    Magic is something you can learn how to use through study, through the use of magic items and tools, and through bargains with powerful magical, usually otherworldly, beings. Doctor Strange uses a mix of all three.


    Scarlet Witch, in the comics, is a Mutant. Her mutant power, specifically, is that she is innately really, really good at Magic.
    There is an X-Man named "Forge" whose mutant power is that he's innately such a good engineer that he can make Tony Stark cry himself to sleep at night.

    Wanda is to Doctor Strange what Forge is to Tony Stark. She's a D&D style sorcerer. Her MEDIUM is Magic, but her power, and ability to use it, are both innate, so she doesn't interact with magic the same way Doctor Strange does. She doesn't need to use rules, tools, or Incantations, even if she's ultimately working through the same medium.

    I'm going to use the word "Sorcerer" here to refer to Marvel spellcasters, since that's the word they use.


    Agatha's Coven ask her if she is a "Witch", implying that a "Witch" is a distinct thing. Perhaps Witches have some degree of Innate power (Sorcerers, to use the D&D term), while Sorcerers (Wizards to use D&D terms) have to study/bargain for their power.

    The Coven were probably Sorcerers. Agatha is a Witch who, while nowhere near Wanda's level of power, has studied magic, so she's got her innate power, plus the knowledge and technique of Sorcerers. She uses Runes and has names for her spells.

    Wanda is an insanely powerful Witch, one with so much innate power that she can do what she does without the use of any tools or techniques, or any formal magical training.
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  11. - Top - End - #521
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    On the subject of magic, it's been around since Thor. Loki's illusions were never presented as anything except magic.
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  12. - Top - End - #522
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Spoiler: On Wanda's Powers
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    So, Doctor Strange is canon, which means Magic exists.
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    yes, but not necessarily. Strange's magic appears to be more science-based then actual magic, using physics to manipulate physics rather then magical energy.



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    my understanding of Comic Book Marvel Magic is...
    Spoiler
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    Comic logic doesn't really apply here, as the comics and movies are two entirely seperate things with different rulesets. Movies are based on the comics yes, but they are not interchangeable.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
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    On the subject of magic, it's been around since Thor. Loki's illusions were never presented as anything except magic.
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    "On my world, science and magic are one and the same." -Thor (Thor, 2011)
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-02-26 at 12:40 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
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    yes, but not necessarily. Strange's magic appears to be more science-based then actual magic, using physics to manipulate physics rather then magical energy.
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    Define "Actual Magic"

    If the laws of the universe were such that you could say some words, wave your hands in the correct manner, and make a pencil stand up and dance, we could call that "physics" the same way that you can use one piece of metal to push around some paperclips without touching them, and we could call the medium by which you made the pencil dance "Magic" the same way we call the force that moves the paperclips "Magnetism".

    The Comics make a difference between innately chaotic "Magic", and so advanced it's basically magic "Science". There's a Doctor Strange arc that specifically defines Galactus, a giant purple spacegod who eats the life force of planets, as a being of "Science", with Magic being specifically chaotic and less controllable.

    But, as much as this contradicts my next point, I don't see why we need to assume the MCU is going to make that distinction. Heck, I don't even think the Comics treat that as a hard and fast rule outside that one particular run of Doctor Strange.



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    Comic logic doesn't really apply here, as the comics and movies are two entirely seperate things with different rulesets. Movies are based on the comics yes, but they are not interchangeable.
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    While we're speculating, comics are as fine a place to start as any.
    Until they get around to retconning Mutants into the MCU, I doubt Wanda is a Mutant whose X-Gene makes her Innately Good at Magic, but a similar arrangement, where she and Doctor Strange are doing the same thing, but she's got an innate ability and direct control, while he's using practiced technique and specialized tools, seems likely from what we saw here
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-02-26 at 12:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
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    I have the feeling that the colour-coded magical powers will correlate with the infinity stones, with the different colours tapping into different streams of creation energy running through reality or something like that.
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    I very much doubt it. The part of the Infinity Stones in the MCU is over for the forseeable future.

    I think they're colour coded more to show a fairly standard light vs. dark for the coven vs Agatha, and Wanda's is red to show that it is "chaos" magic which is dangerous and out of control.


    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Spoiler: On Wanda's Powers
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    Agatha's Coven ask her if she is a "Witch", implying that a "Witch" is a distinct thing. Perhaps Witches have some degree of Innate power (Sorcerers, to use the D&D term), while Sorcerers (Wizards to use D&D terms) have to study/bargain for their power.

    The Coven were probably Sorcerers. Agatha is a Witch who, while nowhere near Wanda's level of power, has studied magic, so she's got her innate power, plus the knowledge and technique of Sorcerers. She uses Runes and has names for her spells.

    Wanda is an insanely powerful Witch, one with so much innate power that she can do what she does without the use of any tools or techniques, or any formal magical training.
    Spoiler
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    The way it came off, I think they were asking Agatha "are you one of us". It's "are you a witch?" "yet you have betrayed your coven?"

    Agatha doesn't have a different type of power to the rest of them, she's just reached for forbidden knowledge (possibly the Darkhold) which has pumped her up through the power of eeeevil.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-02-26 at 01:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    okay, so
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    What confuses me here is Haywood

    Why would he say "Wanda stormed SWORD and took the Vision's body" when that never happened? Was he trying to sell Monica and the others on Wanda as a threat? We already have "Wanda is holding a town captive with her powers" for that. It seems like a completely unnecessary lie on his part.
    Spoiler: Hayward's Motives
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    My guess? Cover up. Remember, it's against the Accords and Vision's will to revive him. Which is exactly what Hayward is trying to do. By claiming Wanda stole the body, nobody will be looking for it or question where it is or why it went missing. Then he can do whatever experiments he wants on it in secret and nobody is the wiser.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    I very much doubt it. The part of the Infinity Stones in the MCU is over for the forseeable future.

    I think they're colour coded more to show a fairly standard light vs. dark for the coven vs Agatha, and Wanda's is red to show that it is "chaos" magic which is dangerous and out of control.




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    The way it came off, I think they were asking Agatha "are you one of us". It's "are you a witch?" "yet you have betrayed your coven?"

    Agatha doesn't have a different type of power to the rest of them, she's just reached for forbidden knowledge (possibly the Darkhold) which has pumped her up through the power of eeeevil.
    I am not wed to this idea, but on the subject of Chaos Magic.

    Spoiler: The color red, as in Scarlet
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    If I recall my infinity stones correctly. The red one from Thor 2 is the reality stone. Also known as the aether, and its form is constantly in flux, it is chaos personified.

    I am not wed to this idea, but Wanda has been reality warping such as a probability hex since the age of 10. I am not saying this power comes from the infinity stone, but color coding reality warping as red.

    Later this power is boosted by the Mind Stone, but Wanda also gains telepathy and telekinesis powers that are grafted onto her by said Mind Stone.

    —————

    Agatha is calling Wanda the Scarlet Witch for Wanda doing things similar to the Reality Stone is extremely rare. Yet it has happened in the past and thus Agatha has a name for it.


    Well episode 1 stuff clicked with episode 8

    Spoiler: The Heart
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    The heart on the calendar is the same heart on the deed of the house which becomes Wanda’s house on Westview. Likewise no one can remember the details of anniversaries, plans, when they come to Westview etc for Wanda is trying to suppress those traumatic memories. Wanda is hexing her own self.



    Spoiler: Vibranium
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    Hayward knows there is at least two visions, and the vision in Westview is made out of Vibranium based off satellite imagery. Likewise white vision of vision quest comic is likely made of Vibranium. It is unclear if white Vision is the corpse of the original deceased vision or is a new vision duplicate.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-02-27 at 02:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    All i'm gunna say is this.

    Killmonger:
    -No chemistry with Protagonist (Doesn't even know who he is)
    -Only Antagonizes because Protagonist has stuff he wants
    -Personal grudge is with a dead man, and doesn't even seem too concerned about that
    -Only goal is to start a race war
    -Stole the Protagonist's powers and copied them exactly, only minor aesthetic changes
    -Barely has a plan on anything he's doing. just "Give people guns" "???" "Profit!" with little to no thoughts or plans on during or afterwards.
    -Dude's just bloodthirsty for bloodthirsty's sake.
    You know ...

    The reasons why you do not like Killmonger is precisely why people like him as a character. His grudge is with a dead man, he past was stolen from him, there can be no reconciliation, there is only the grudge, the jealousy, etc. 🎶 This Is The Point of No Return!!! 🎶

    This is intragenerational trauma, and that is why it resonates with people. That life is not neat and clean, and if it was there would be no need to be vigilant, kind, generous, etc. Killmonger is both a societal betrayal where society took from him, but also literally the royal family. His father, Prince N'Jobu was sacrificed, and turn into a scapegoat, human blood on a blood altar. Of course the son will seek vengeance and try to topple such a sinful society. That the only way to reform it, is to burn it down. When society “forecloses” peaceful reform, only violent and bitter betrayal can cause reform.

    And thus making the father be dead, that a new king is in place, the king having to deal with this “living grudge” is inherently full of tension. He is not responsible for his father’s mistakes, but he has the responsibility to the present and he must be a king for his people, but also a citizen of the world for the choices he makes as king will affect people outside his kingdom.

    People loved the story for it was not a 1 on 1 conflict but instead man against society conflict and grappling with societies contradictions. While you disliked it Draconi Redfir for the exact same reasons.
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  18. - Top - End - #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    I very much doubt it. The part of the Infinity Stones in the MCU is over for the forseeable future.

    I think they're colour coded more to show a fairly standard light vs. dark for the coven vs Agatha, and Wanda's is red to show that it is "chaos" magic which is dangerous and out of control.
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    It's not just dark versus light (in Agatha's purple and the coven's blue) plus Wanda's red, though. There's also the Ancient One's school of magic that Doctor Strange uses with yellow magic---but it's green when he does magic powered by the time stone, which is consistent with this notion.

    I'm not saying that every colour-coded thing that we get will go back to the infinity stones. But in this case, given that canonically the infinity stones represent different shades of energy in the creation of the universe, I could see there being six different magical energy sources that MCU sorcerers can draw upon, and which correspond to these six original energies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
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    So... I'm not sure how i feel about the show going all "Sabrina the teenage witch" on us with 1700's era real-magic witches with spells and hexes and the like. I mean i suppose old superhumans could exist, but a whole bunch of em with all the same power? Ehh... Less invested in that to be honest. Think i would have preferred if Agatha was alone in her witchy ways and kind of invented the whole thing herself, maybe it was an early branch-off of Dr. Strange's magic (Which seems more based on math and science) or something. Having witches and covens and hexes and charms just feels really "High fantasy" to me, while up until this point the MCU has been pretty reliably "Low fantasy", with any magic being either a subset of science, ancient big-bang power, or significantly advanced technology.

    nooot sure I'm a fan of Wanda being a Witch either, like i know her hero name is "Scarlet witch" an all but you know what i mean, real magic-magic that she was apparently born with. I preferred her powers being more psychic then magical, as they were granted from the MIND stone, thus giving her MIND related powers, with no related abilities prior.
    One the one hand,
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    if you want to headcanon it that all magic is the same sciency magic that Dr. Strange uses, and witches covens are just a tradition of that magic that has built a mystic-sounding terminology around it, I don't think there's anything that can happen in-universe that could contradict it. Under this interpretation, Wanda lucked into learning a spell as a kid, and her experience with that spell's energies caused the mind-stone to react differently with her than with people who hadn't used any spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
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    Meanwhile I’m over here ecstatic as hell and trying hard not to do my happy dance that some actual, real, no BS, no wiggle room, MAGIC! Thank god they made Wanda a witch. Marvel has killed off the metaphorical wizard way to often in the MCU as it is.
    On the other hand,
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    you could absolutely headcanon it that the Asgardians and Dr. Strange are just deluding themselves into thinking they understand how magic works, when it is inherently ineffable and unknowable. This would also be pretty much uncontradictable, as far as I can tell.


    These interpretations can exist side by side. Neither has to be definitively right or definitively wrong; they are both supportable from the text.

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    Well that was terrible.

    Because my Disney subscription runs out this sunday and now I'm going to have to get at least another month
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    I get the feeling that the folks saying magic should only be/work this or that way in the MCU would just get a resounding belly laugh from the Ancient One.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I get the feeling that the folks saying magic should only be/work this or that way in the MCU would just get a resounding belly laugh from the Ancient One.
    Amen!!

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    Also, i think the Sword director just wanted a 2nd Vision body to tear appart and study?
    Last edited by Cikomyr2; 2021-02-27 at 12:18 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I get the feeling that the folks saying magic should only be/work this or that way in the MCU would just get a resounding belly laugh from the Ancient One.
    ehh, she's dead. what's she going to do, decay at me?


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    idk man i just want consistency i think. up until now everything in the MCU has been pretty soft-fantasy, where magic or magical stuff "exists", but is more often then not treated as either psychic ability, advanced science, or advanced technology. So having a sudden jump to "Sabrina the teenage witch on netflix" style magic is just a bit jarring to me, as so far at least, it completely jumps over everything else that's already established.

    To be fair, it's only been in one episode so far, it's entirely possible that Agnes's Magic is more like a combination of Dr.Strange's science-magic and Wanda's psychic abilities, as things like "curses" and "Hexes" are just labels her coven put on things. it could still change, idk

    I will say just by nature I'm not a fan of the thought of Wanda being born with her abilities, the thought of her being the one to make the missile non-functional kind of diminishes the story for me a bit, makes it feel less tragic and all that? Plus... I've never really been a fan of the whole "Mutants in the MCU" thing. It just feels like it's this whole extra thing that would work better as it's own franchise like it has been up until this point, then as an addition to an already large franchise.

    i could see some people being born with special abilities, especially if one or more of their ancestors had special abilities, I'm just not sure i want to see an entire percentage of the population as having them, kinda makes em feel less special you know?
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  24. - Top - End - #534
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    In both the comics and the MCU magic and science is all the same thing. There IS only the manipulation of reality and you can do that by what lay people would call "magic" or "science", but it is all the same thing. In the comics magic is specifically a science based power: it is the psionic manipulation of reality.

    In both the comics and the MCU anyone can learn to manipulate reality with their mind. It takes time and skill and ability just like learning any other complex thing. Not everyone can advance to all powerful, but most can learn and use a little power.

    We see this is the whole first half of the Doctor Strange movie and roughly 1,000 marvel comics. And the MCU has plenty of examples of magic/science being the same thing. Thor movies make this point a couple times.....and remember in the Avengers when Iron Man(Science) absorbs and uses Thor's(Magic) energy blast?

    "Witches" are not exactly new to the MCU, as the Doctor Strange movie DOES show at least a couple hundred magic users world wide.

    Wanda...is complicated in the comics, plus there have been so, so, so, many retcons, rewrites and the childish "I write what I want and ignore everyone" spam.

    Comic Wanda:

    So..."classic Wanda" before all the 2000's "lets change everything everything everything more" is a Mutant. So in Marvel a Mutant is a person born with an unique psionic ability to manipulate a bit of reality : shoot out eye beams, regeneration, control weather, and so on. Wanda was born with the mutant power to manipulate probability: to make 'rare' things happen. Wanda could for example make a foe trip or make a gun misfire. For the most part Wanda can't control what happens without extreme will power and focused thoughts.

    At birth Wanda was also enchanted by the demon Chiton to be a favorable host body.

    In the comics Wanda never had any skill for magic and could not cast very much magic at all. But she did learn lots of skills such as concentration, focus and other mental abilities that magic users use.

    A last bit: In the comics a race known as the Celestials altered lots of races, including humans, a million years ago so that they would have the potential to manipulate things and become super human, use magic, or be a mutant.

    Putting it all Together:

    A couple Infinity Stones....at least the Power, Time and the Reality stones have been on Earth for a while in modern times. Though when we talk about even just a million years, a stone can cover the distance of the whole multiverse and back.

    As we have seen Infinity Stones can "awaken" or "enhance" the potential power a person might have........and so it stands to reason that the "potential'' was created by an Infinity Stone.

    So this makes the Infinity Stones created the potential for humans to become super human, use magic, or be a mutant.

    This explains all the pretty colors that the witches are using: there "magic" is based on the "potential infinity power".

    So MCU Wanda is born a with a "potential to use magic" and be a Witch. Though only a slight ability....like many people. When she was exposed to the Stone, it accelerated/advanced/awakened her power.

    That seems to be the semi offical way of things right now.....but for one more twist, Wanda might ALSO be a mutant with the power to alter probability. Making her a unique mesh of powers.






  25. - Top - End - #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    okay, so
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    What confuses me here is Haywood

    Why would he say "Wanda stormed SWORD and took the Vision's body" when that never happened? Was he trying to sell Monica and the others on Wanda as a threat? We already have "Wanda is holding a town captive with her powers" for that. It seems like a completely unnecessary lie on his part.


    Yes, Haywood is shady and trigger-happy, but the two don't seem to be connected anymore. He's not being overly aggressive because he wants his toy back, he HAS his toy.

    So we're back to "Wanda is holding a town captive and Haywood objects to that" with a side order of "Haywood is able to use this situation to get Vision back online".

    So, Haywood is just pointlessly extra-evil. Whatever, he's not the point.
    Spoiler
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    So much this. As much as I love the rest of it, Haywood at this point is my biggest beef, and arguably the biggest plothole. Let's review the timeline.

    First, the Snapture comes unsnapped. People - including Rambeau - start coming back. Rambeau arrives at SWORD, where now-Director Haywood gives her an assignment - go investigate something odd happening in a small town in New Jersey. Once there, Rambeau slips into the Hex. She's in there a day, maybe two. In that time, SWORD has mobilized and formed a perimeter.

    So far, so good. It makes sense up to here. Then she gets out, and explains to Haywood that she doesn't think Wanda is doing this on purpose. At this point, Haywood has his suspiciously prepared Evil Powerpoint Presentation, in which he shows the video footage of Wanda stealing the intact Vision body - something we now know never happened.

    This means that, on a day or two notice, Haywood had to doctor footage to show an event that never happened in order to convince Rambeau that Wanda was a threat - despite the fact that, merely a day or two before, nobody was even aware that Wanda was in any way up to anything. She came into SWORD HQ, saw the Vision autopsy, flipped out, sighed, and left, and that is all they knew. Haywood was unaware of the Hex when it first formed, or else he would have sent more than a single agent in a jeep. Haywood was unaware of the events inside the Hex, including the new Vision, because as Darcy pointed out, no scans could penetrate the Hex. We found out eventually that, once Haywood became aware of Double Vision, he was able to track the Vibranium decay rates inside the Hex, somehow, despite no signals getting out, but prior to that he would have had no reason to scan for it.

    In short, Haywood's apparent prescience - the fact that he knew (1) that Wanda went rogue, and (2) that she had a second Vision inside the unscannable Hex, and the fact that this enabled him to (1) doctor a surveillance video and (2) search for said Double Vision - is a massive plothole, and it bothers the crap out of me.

    "But wait," the show wants us to think, "he clearly wanted to frame Wanda because her powers could fuel the newly reconstructed Vision." Well, no, that's crap, because he had no reason to believe she could provide power for the new Vision. At least, not until she sent that magically-charged drone back out of the Hex. And somehow, Haywood was able to transfer the glowing red magical energy from that drone into new Vision, because apparently SWORD has the technology to transfer magic like it's electricity. And then, having the technology to transfer the glowing red magical energy, he decided to do that, because - despite it being utterly beyond control and comprehension and magically transmuting matter in ways he can't explain - it just seemed like it would work. Yes, let's transfer the dangerous and unstable power source into our sentient weapon, I can think of no way it will go wrong. That all makes so much sense.

    Aside from that, I have only two, relatively minor beefs.

    First, Agatha grabbed ahold of the idiot ball. When you have determined that your adversary possesses limitless power and releases it in uncontrolled bursts during times of emotional turmoil, why in creation would you proceed to taunt said adversary by threatening her fictional magical delusion children? What possible reason could this otherwise master manipulator - who has done so well so far - have for doing something so suicidally stupid?

    Oh, right. This is Marvel and we need to kill off our villains. Well, it was nice knowing you, Agatha.

    Second, I love little in-lore asides that make things canon. In the various Star Wars series and films when they make an offhand reference to the novels or other parts of the Expanded Universe? A treat. Every nod to Thrawn or the Darksaber or similar, it gives me delight. Same in this series - when they had nods to, say, everyone's comic book costumes, or things like that? A joy. But there's a difference between an offhand reference to a subject with no significant impact on the plot, and a major reveal.

    "You are the Scarlet Witch." That is not a minor aside. That is said with a sense of fear and gravity. Like it's something significant. Which it would be, if there were any reference made to it at any point prior, ever. Stick it in a book somewhere. An offhand statement. A remark by Doctor Strange in a movie. A legend in a bit of narration. Something. But saying "the Scarlet Witch" like it means something, when it clearly means nothing, is patronizingly insulting.

    I saw a Wired interview with the actress awhile back. One of those autocomplete interviews. Have you seen them? Well, one of the questions was "Is Elizabeth Olsen the Scarlet Witch?" And she just kind of smiled coyly, and said that that name had never been used in the movies. Which was true, and was also a sentence clearly designed to make fans think, "So it will be, at some point."

    This is not how I wanted that to happen. Not somebody throwing out the name like it means something when it clearly doesn't. That's just a letdown.


    All that aside, love this series just so much. So impatient between weeks. Gripping, masterfully done.
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  26. - Top - End - #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    ehh, she's dead. what's she going to do, decay at me?:
    She is not real, thus Hauntology, the idea of a thing infecting ones mind and it will not leave.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
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    Stick it in a book somewhere. An offhand statement. A remark by Doctor Strange in a movie. A legend in a bit of narration. Something. But saying "the Scarlet Witch" like it means something, when it clearly means nothing, is patronizingly insulting.
    Spoiler
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    If they did this thoguh, then this is exactly what would happen:

    "Wanda?"
    "It's Wanda!"
    "Definitely Wanda"
    "Absolutely Wanda"
    "Yea that secret scarlet witch thing? Yeah that's wanda."
    "Some new character? Nah, Wanda."
    "Wanda's superhero name in the comics is Scarlet Witch, therefore it's wanda"
    "Comics"
    "Comic wanda"
    etc.

    Because "Scarlet Witch" is Wanda's X-men name in the comics. What's new here though is that there is apparently some meaning to the name other then just "the super-hero name Wanda made up one day", it has some prophecy or background too it, may have been others before her idk. We don't know what it means in the MCU, but for now at least, it mans more then it did in the comics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
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    First, Agatha grabbed ahold of the idiot ball. When you have determined that your adversary possesses limitless power and releases it in uncontrolled bursts during times of emotional turmoil, why in creation would you proceed to taunt said adversary by threatening her fictional magical delusion children? What possible reason could this otherwise master manipulator - who has done so well so far - have for doing something so suicidally stupid?
    Spoiler
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    She hasn't explained her evil plan yet, so i imagine this won't be immediately suicidal. Given how Agatha survived her execution, I think she might be able to absorb magic, and is intentionally goading Wanda in order to steal her scarlet witch powers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    ehh, she's dead. what's she going to do, decay at me?
    Doesn't make her any less right. And calling Strange's magic "science magic" was pretty much missing the whole point of Doctor Strange, that there's a lot more to MCU magic than treating it like just another science, and it was only when he let go of those silly notions that he was able to truly begin learning.

    And I'm pretty sure the Ancient One herself, never mind MCU magic in general, greatly predated Salem anyway.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-02-28 at 01:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
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    So much this. As much as I love the rest of it, Haywood at this point is my biggest beef, and arguably the biggest plothole. Let's review the timeline.

    First, the Snapture comes unsnapped. People - including Rambeau - start coming back. Rambeau arrives at SWORD, where now-Director Haywood gives her an assignment - go investigate something odd happening in a small town in New Jersey. Once there, Rambeau slips into the Hex. She's in there a day, maybe two. In that time, SWORD has mobilized and formed a perimeter.

    So far, so good. It makes sense up to here. Then she gets out, and explains to Haywood that she doesn't think Wanda is doing this on purpose. At this point, Haywood has his suspiciously prepared Evil Powerpoint Presentation, in which he shows the video footage of Wanda stealing the intact Vision body - something we now know never happened.

    This means that, on a day or two notice, Haywood had to doctor footage to show an event that never happened in order to convince Rambeau that Wanda was a threat - despite the fact that, merely a day or two before, nobody was even aware that Wanda was in any way up to anything. She came into SWORD HQ, saw the Vision autopsy, flipped out, sighed, and left, and that is all they knew. Haywood was unaware of the Hex when it first formed, or else he would have sent more than a single agent in a jeep. Haywood was unaware of the events inside the Hex, including the new Vision, because as Darcy pointed out, no scans could penetrate the Hex. We found out eventually that, once Haywood became aware of Double Vision, he was able to track the Vibranium decay rates inside the Hex, somehow, despite no signals getting out, but prior to that he would have had no reason to scan for it.

    In short, Haywood's apparent prescience - the fact that he knew (1) that Wanda went rogue, and (2) that she had a second Vision inside the unscannable Hex, and the fact that this enabled him to (1) doctor a surveillance video and (2) search for said Double Vision - is a massive plothole, and it bothers the crap out of me.

    "But wait," the show wants us to think, "he clearly wanted to frame Wanda because her powers could fuel the newly reconstructed Vision." Well, no, that's crap, because he had no reason to believe she could provide power for the new Vision. At least, not until she sent that magically-charged drone back out of the Hex. And somehow, Haywood was able to transfer the glowing red magical energy from that drone into new Vision, because apparently SWORD has the technology to transfer magic like it's electricity. And then, having the technology to transfer the glowing red magical energy, he decided to do that, because - despite it being utterly beyond control and comprehension and magically transmuting matter in ways he can't explain - it just seemed like it would work. Yes, let's transfer the dangerous and unstable power source into our sentient weapon, I can think of no way it will go wrong. That all makes so much sense.
    Spoiler: It's Hayward, not Haywood
    Show
    If you go back to episode four, you'll see that Hayward's video shows Wanda blasting open a door, shattering a window, and jumping down into the room where Vision's body was held, all of which she did. At no point does he show video of Wanda leaving the compound with Vision's body; he only tells us that she did. The total of his "doctoring" is a 20 minute editing job.

    He's also ready for Wanda to try reviving Vision because he's the one who gave her the idea. Her plan was a funeral and a burial, it's Hayward who suggested she might be able to bring him back "online". He has, in fact, been thinking about it for years. During those years, it's very likely he would have hit upon the realization that Wanda and Vision are both powered by the mind stone, and therefore have had time to get his scientists to build a device that can transfer "mind stone energy", just in case he ever runs across any. During that time he's also presumably uploaded some programming into Vision's body that he believes will give him control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
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    First, Agatha grabbed ahold of the idiot ball. When you have determined that your adversary possesses limitless power and releases it in uncontrolled bursts during times of emotional turmoil, why in creation would you proceed to taunt said adversary by threatening her fictional magical delusion children? What possible reason could this otherwise master manipulator - who has done so well so far - have for doing something so suicidally stupid?
    My first thought was the same as hungrycrow's, but I've seen someone else suggest another theory that I think is interesting.
    Spoiler: Other Theory
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    Agatha, appalled that Wanda is messing with the primal forces of the universe with literally no clue about what she is doing, is engaging in some "sink-or-swim" style training. She's trying to force Wanda to use her magics in a deliberate and controlled way instead of, y'know, randomly popping superhumans into existence.

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