WandaVision

[Clertar]

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Also, it seemed quite transparent that the dismantling of the Vision's body that Hayward showed Wanda was just a show set up for her. He never intended to decomission the Vision and recover the vibranium to be able to reuse it as metal; they had 5 years to do that, they wouldn' still be in the middle of it. He has been trying to have a controllable Vision.

[Cikomyr2]

Spoiler: Other Theory

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Agatha, appalled that Wanda is messing with the primal forces of the universe with literally no clue about what she is doing, is engaging in some "sink-or-swim" style training. She's trying to force Wanda to use her magics in a deliberate and controlled way instead of, y'know, randomly popping superhumans into existence.

Yhea I can SEE that

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or as least, she wants Wanda to realize and consciously use her power, not let her subconscious exert such magic without a willing control over it

[Eldan]

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Also, it seemed quite transparent that the dismantling of the Vision's body that Hayward showed Wanda was just a show set up for her. He never intended to decomission the Vision and recover the vibranium to be able to reuse it as metal; they had 5 years to do that, they wouldn' still be in the middle of it. He has been trying to have a controllable Vision.

I'm not so sure it's only that.

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He also said something along the lines of "We've been taking this thing apart and putting it back together dozens of times".

I don't think they wanted to take Vision apart for Vibranium. But they were taking it apart to study and replicate the technology.

[Eldan]

ehh, she's dead. what's she going to do, decay at me?

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idk man i just want consistency i think. up until now everything in the MCU has been pretty soft-fantasy, where magic or magical stuff "exists", but is more often then not treated as either psychic ability, advanced science, or advanced technology. So having a sudden jump to "Sabrina the teenage witch on netflix" style magic is just a bit jarring to me, as so far at least, it completely jumps over everything else that's already established.

To be fair, it's only been in one episode so far, it's entirely possible that Agnes's Magic is more like a combination of Dr.Strange's science-magic and Wanda's psychic abilities, as things like "curses" and "Hexes" are just labels her coven put on things. it could still change, idk

I will say just by nature I'm not a fan of the thought of Wanda being born with her abilities, the thought of her being the one to make the missile non-functional kind of diminishes the story for me a bit, makes it feel less tragic and all that? Plus... I've never really been a fan of the whole "Mutants in the MCU" thing. It just feels like it's this whole extra thing that would work better as it's own franchise like it has been up until this point, then as an addition to an already large franchise.

i could see some people being born with special abilities, especially if one or more of their ancestors had special abilities, I'm just not sure i want to see an entire percentage of the population as having them, kinda makes em feel less special you know?

I mean... okay, but what are "psychic powers" if not a vaguely scientific sounding name for magic?

[Cikomyr2]

I'm not so sure it's only that.

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He also said something along the lines of "We've been taking this thing apart and putting it back together dozens of times".

I don't think they wanted to take Vision apart for Vibranium. But they were taking it apart to study and replicate the technology.

Yhea. The reference to the Vibranium was just the value of the raw material alone. Vision is worth a lot more than "3 billion dollars worth of Vibranium"

[Draconi Redfir]

I mean... okay, but what are "psychic powers" if not a vaguely scientific sounding name for magic?

Psychic powers come from the mind and require mental focus and strain, you need to be actively thinking about it in order for it to work. Generally this includes things like mind-reading, Telekinesis, creation of energy-objects such as swords or balls of force, etc. Since this psychic power comes from you, it's impossible for someone else to take or manipulate it. What you do with your power is ultimately up to your imagination, but generally you can't do incredibly specific things like "Make a rat, have it spin three times, stop, wait for twenty minutes, explode, summon a demon from it's remains, and then assassinator the CEO of megacorp"


Magic is just "in the air" or something, and can be harnessed by anyone who knows what they're doing, but doesn't require as much mental focus. Magical spells or effects are almost always limited in some way, if there isn't a spell for "picking up my drink and moving it over there", then you just can't use magic to do it. Magic isn't inherently "yours" either, so if you shoot a magic-orb at someone else who knows magic, they are more able to catch it and send it back to you. You're also able to set up more specific situations such as "Everyone in exactly twenty meters from here dances for the next twenty minutes before falling on the floor" and the like. Magic is usually a lot less limited on what it can do in the broad sense, but more limited in how it can do it.

[Ramza00]

You are describing Magic hun. You are bringing your own habits from video games, novels, etc and think those subjective small stories are universal rules.

But when you “study” this with a larger cross-section, and across cultures you see the rules are not etched in stone.

[Draconi Redfir]

That's like saying Milk is Water though, sure both are liquids and flow around and fill their containers, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing.

[GloatingSwine]

Remember that when dealing with made up things like magic and psychic powers every fictional universe has its own rules and you have to look only at that fiction to decide what those rules are.

Magic and psychic powers are the same if the fiction says they are and different if the fiction says they are.

[Cikomyr2]

You are describing Magic hun. You are bringing your own habits from video games, novels, etc and think those subjective small stories are universal rules.

But when you “study” this with a larger cross-section, and across cultures you see the rules are not etched in stone.

I do like the fact Vision is still the least magic individual of the entire MCU, and at the centre of it all.

[Bugbear]

I mean... okay, but what are "psychic powers" if not a vaguely scientific sounding name for magic?

In Marvel comic lore:

Psionic is the word used to describe 'activation of a power or ability with your mind'. So as nearly every character has to think about using their power: they are all using psionic power to do this. In Old Marvel Lore a persons brain generates and protects psions that then manipulate what they effect.

Quicksilver projects psions that increase his speed. Wanda projects psions that move matter(aka telekinesis). Storm projects psions that control the weather. Dr. Strange projects psions that can do a great many things depending on how he 'programs' them, like make a shield or illusions of himself.

[Psyren]

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Because "Scarlet Witch" is Wanda's X-men name in the comics. What's new here though is that there is apparently some meaning to the name other then just "the super-hero name Wanda made up one day", it has some prophecy or background too it, may have been others before her idk. We don't know what it means in the MCU, but for now at least, it mans more then it did in the comics.

Or alternatively, it means exactly what it does in the comics - the modern ones, not what we all thought it meant originally back when the character was first conceived decades ago.

That's like saying Milk is Water though, sure both are liquids and flow around and fill their containers, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing.

Milk is an emulsion actually.
But the broader point, that MCU magic is broader than the narrow set of rules you appear to be operating under, is correct.

I'm not so sure it's only that.

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He also said something along the lines of "We've been taking this thing apart and putting it back together dozens of times".

I don't think they wanted to take Vision apart for Vibranium. But they were taking it apart to study and replicate the technology.

Yes - and with no Ultron and no deity around to help, they couldn't crack the code.

What I found interesting though wasn't the footage, it was

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the fact that Hayward planted the idea of resurrecting Vision in Wanda's head to begin with - "not everyone has the juice to bring their dead boyfriend back online." How does he even know Wanda could do that?

I suspect that the Hayward in Monica's flashback isn't quite the same as the Hayward in Wanda's/present-day Hayward. Either he learned something he had no business fooling around with in that intervening time, or something else is wearing his face and fooling everyone.

[Mordar]

Doesn't make her any less right. And calling Strange's magic "science magic" was pretty much missing the whole point of Doctor Strange, that there's a lot more to MCU magic than treating it like just another science, and it was only when he let go of those silly notions that he was able to truly begin learning.

And I'm pretty sure the Ancient One herself, never mind MCU magic in general, greatly predated Salem anyway.

From the beginnings of the MCU (well, Thor, anyway) I was disappointed in the "magic is just relatively advanced science" (as in relative to the viewer who thinks it "magic") instead of magic just being a thing. And now, especially given the inclusion of Dr. Strange, the mantle of Sorcerer Supreme, Scarlet Witch and Agatha...Aesgard's definition has proven problematic, or at least limiting.

But I think there is room for evolution. Aesgard might have run on science, but Strange and his teachers/peers can run on sciency-magic (hermetic?), and Agatha and Wanda can run on primal magic, and later we can have Brother Voodoo, Calypso or Marie Laveau show up and run on Loa magic.

And then we can have The (real) Defenders movie. And I will love it and watch it over and over and over...

- M

[Psyren]

Did I miss something? Where did Thor say all magic was just advanced science?

Yeah, Asgard saw parity between some things, like the 9 realms and the bifrost fitting in with Jane's astrophysics studies, but things like Loki's illusions and Thor's hammer being able to measure "worth" never really got that kind of rationalization that I recall.

[Ramza00]

Wonders if I should write a post about the mid 1600s to 1800 to 1905 concept of “Energy” as a science term, and how it simultaneously dovetails in a parallel fashion language wise with all these concepts of magic, psychic, and psionic of that time in a Max Weber-ian concept of enchantment, disenchantment, and renchantment.

NAH!!!

The short of it is these are new concepts from a societal perspective, but we humans when we teach things to elementary and later high school students “collapse” the concept and all of its context not understanding how ideas could have been radically different only 30 years earlier. Humans teach in a didactic fashion saying only this is relevant and teaching the end result instead of explaining how concepts evolve organically but also in other ways in the transformation of ideas. (Is dialectically the best word here? With the evolution of ideas and language)

And context collapse the ideas, context collapse them several times over many generations and we as individuals forget how new those ideas are, and how in 1850 only 170 years ago how new, foreign, fresh, and magical this way of viewing the world is.

[Mordar]

Did I miss something? Where did Thor say all magic was just advanced science?

Yeah, Asgard saw parity between some things, like the 9 realms and the bifrost fitting in with Jane's astrophysics studies, but things like Loki's illusions and Thor's hammer being able to measure "worth" never really got that kind of rationalization that I recall.

It was mostly the conversation between Jane and Erik, but it became broadly accepted in the conversations around the movies. As I recall there was even some quote(s) from Feige about science being the root of Strange's magic (booo!).

I firmly agree that it was a handwave that didn't explain a lot of things...and I want the handwave utterly refuted.

- M

[ecarden]

Okay, I whined a lot about Hayward previously and if they end up using him as I half expect (blow everything up just as its starting to calm down to force Monica/Wanda/Agnes to work together) then I will be grumpy about it again. But at the moment, I think things actually make a bit more sense for reasons explained below:

Spoiler: Theory

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Let's walk through this from Hayward's perspective (a lot of this is obvious guesswork). The Snap happens. Vision is killed by Thanos, after having sacrificed himself to prevent the Snap (don't know how we know this, but it's apparently fairly common knowledge by five years later, so reasonable to believe that its known by SWORD at the time.

Director Maria (maybe those million deconstructions and reconstructions happened in the two years Hayward was in charge, but I'd have thought the Director would have done something with it beforehand, unless it was already in use) grabs up the body, looks around at a world radically weakened and missing most of its defenders and says to Hayward, who given he is appointed her replacement in 3 years, ought to be her most senior and trusted person left, 'Bring back Vision.'

Now, this is (maybe, we don't actually know this, Hayward just says it) a violation of Vision's living will and definitely a violation of the Sokovia Accords, but, meh, who cares? Everyone is breaking those things left and right. But he can't be seen to be doing it, as he's still a government agent.

Now, the rule in the Sokovia Accords is against the creation of self-aware artificial intelligences, so the orders to the team are reconstruct it and get it back on line. The story is it'll basically be a zombie, when the goal is to bring Vision back, though they'll take a very powerful drone if that's all they can get.

So, they spend five years working on it and figure out they can't crack the power problem. They keep working on it even after that in hope that they'll find a solution (and to keep any other project from taking the vibranium for its own purposes). In those five years, they obviously would have thought of using the Mind Stone, or its energies. But the Mind Stone is gone, as is everyone it effected (except maybe Hawkeye? But he's awful inaccessible).

This, FYI, is why I think Pietro is not buried and full of holes in Sokovia, but, like the other corpses of HYDRA experimentees, is probably in a morgue somewhere in a SWORD base having been studied for any remaining Mind Stone energies, or info on reproducing them.

Then Wanda comes back, which SWORD had no way of predicting. They had to be incredibly busy right after the blip, but Hayward still tries to use her arrival to complete his project and provokes her into using her power in their facility (indeed, in their lab) hopefully giving them a chance to gain information on her powers. She refuses the temptation to attempt to resurrect him herself, but wants the body. Hayward can't give it up, so holds onto it and she gives on that point, which had to be a surprise and fairly brave given what they know of her powers.

She goes off an creates the Hex. I'd be shocked if she wasn't followed after the meeting by SWORD, who almost immediately know there's a problem, but need an excuse to get involved. In comes the FBI request and Monica's return to duty. Hayward sends them off, expecting to get called in, but instead she goes inside (in a fairly painful bit of forced stupidity by the plotline). Still, he's got his excuse. Sets up around the Hex, needs to get power out of it.

Monica comes out and shows signs of being tampered with by Wanda (and he clearly does not trust the snapped to understand and resents the hell out of them for missing the last five years, probably plus some jealousy regarding the daughter of the boss). Hayward instantly cuts her out of the information loop and antagonizes her. This ends up creating (deliberately or accidentally) a second team that's focused on talking Wanda down. Hayward meanwhile continues to focus on his goal, resurrect Vision, which is all the more urgent given Wanda's mental state. To do that he needs a way to get energy out, so focuses on that and study of the Hex to see if he can siphon energy, which is why his team can see through it, that's what they've been working on while Monica's team has been focused on Wanda's mental state and involvement.

The drone goes in and Hayward deliberately makes an attack with no chance of success, but which is going to provoke a response, hopefully allowing him to get the energy he needs, which works, though probably not as anticipated.

So, now he's got a shell, but inside is the mind, just need to get the two together. Hayward is pursuing an old goal that his mentor and superior gave him even though the strategic position has changed (Wanda's return along with the other blipped planetary defenders make Vision's return far less critical) and is antagonizing Wanda and Monica to accomplish it. This is bad and unwise, but is also a classical blunder of defense/intelligence agencies and not a result of being a power-hungry lunatic.

Why not just tell people? Because he can't without admitting he's violating the Sokovia Accords, which we don't care about as watchers, but a government agency will have people who do care. A lot.

Why not just tell Wanda? Again, that conversation was clearly being recorded. Same problem.

Why not tell Monica somewhere no one else can hear? Might have planned to before she got sucked in and spat out, but more likely pride. Last mission for his old boss, something he's failed at for years...hard to bring in your boss's kid to help you solve it. Bad, but again, human bad, not General Ripper bad.

Then there's the matter of the people inside who are basically being tortured. That's also bad, and given the sequence of events here, it's not out of line for Hayward to feel (and be) fairly guilty over that, thus shoving him further in the direction of finish this quickly rather than try to wait it out.

Only a theory and a little out there, but I like it.

Also, let me take a moment to say that Wandavision has gotten me to think so much about this and bother to write it up, which is impressive as hell.

[Tyrant]

In Marvel comic lore:

Psionic is the word used to describe 'activation of a power or ability with your mind'. So as nearly every character has to think about using their power: they are all using psionic power to do this. In Old Marvel Lore a persons brain generates and protects psions that then manipulate what they effect.

Quicksilver projects psions that increase his speed. Wanda projects psions that move matter(aka telekinesis). Storm projects psions that control the weather. Dr. Strange projects psions that can do a great many things depending on how he 'programs' them, like make a shield or illusions of himself.

I'm not going to claim to be the most well read Marvel fan, but I don't recall ever seeing anything like this. The only grand unifying theory I ever recall seeing was in Earth X (an alternate timeline) where it was said all super powers are derived from the X-Factor gene implanted by the Celestials. In the story everyone* on Earth had theirs activated by Terrigen Mists released by Black Bolt.

*Everyone except Wolverine since he is an unmutated human with no X-Factor gene.

Did I miss something? Where did Thor say all magic was just advanced science?

Yeah, Asgard saw parity between some things, like the 9 realms and the bifrost fitting in with Jane's astrophysics studies, but things like Loki's illusions and Thor's hammer being able to measure "worth" never really got that kind of rationalization that I recall.

That was the impression I was under. The bifrost was essentially advanced technology but Loki was using magic.

I'm not sure why people are completely fine with colossal space gods tinkering with the genetics of ancient humanity and numerous generations later we have mutants, or a gamma bomb giving a guy powers instead of disintegrating him, or a radioactive spider giving a kid powers and not cancer, and so on and so on. But magic? Legit wave your hands, say some words, and physics cries in the corner magic? Well, that is simply a bridge too far. To me, that's an absurd position. To me, part of the appeal of Marvel (and DC) is that you have this wild mix of aliens, high technology, magic, genetic anomalies, super geniuses, vampires, other dimensions, alternate timelines, etc. Magic has been there since the start. Why act like it has no place unless it's science by another name 50+ years after the fact? Seems silly to me.

Or as Doom would probably say: "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Richards, then are dreamt of in your Science"

[Draconi Redfir]

Did I miss something? Where did Thor say all magic was just advanced science?

"Your ancestors called it magic, and you call it Science. Well i come from a place where they are one and the same thing." -Thor to Jane Foster, first Thor movie.

[Ramza00]

"Your ancestors called it magic, and you call it Science. Well i come from a place where they are one and the same thing." -Thor to Jane Foster, first Thor movie.

That is a language game line where people read what they want into it. Just like philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein said of a famous optical illusion “ Rabbit Season / Duck Season / Rabbit Season / Duck Season. “

Spoiler: here is the image

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The image is from 1892. The earliest known version is an unattributed drawing from the 23 October 1892 issue of Fliegende Blätter, a German humour magazine. It was captioned "Welche Thiere gleichen einander am meisten?" ("Which animals are most like each other?"), with "Kaninchen und Ente" ("Rabbit and Duck") written underneath.

In 1953 the image was made famous by Ludwig Wittgenstein, who included it in his Philosophical Investigations as a means of describing two different ways of seeing: "seeing that" versus "seeing as".

Yet prior to Ludwig, Joseph Jastrow a psychologist who studied optical illusions in the 1890s to 1940s made said image popular as well as other images. Joseph Jastrow was also a person who was interested in but was very much debunking things that were Parapsychology (ESP, Occultism, and so on) . He was also a pioneer and advocate for things like double blind studies, randomization, and so on.

And since Joseph Jastrow was so popular with a syndicated columnist in 150+ newspapers, but also published in magazines like Popular Science, Cosmopolitan, and Harper's Monthly he is likely the inspiration of the

Rabbit Fire is a 1951 Looney Tunes cartoon starring Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd.

So we humans are condemned to the language game of "seeing that" versus "seeing as". And thus we will argue forever unless we choose to stop

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler: Theory

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Let's walk through this from Hayward's perspective (a lot of this is obvious guesswork). The Snap happens. Vision is killed by Thanos, after having sacrificed himself to prevent the Snap (don't know how we know this, but it's apparently fairly common knowledge by five years later, so reasonable to believe that its known by SWORD at the time.

My pet theory regarding everyone knowing what happened in the movies it that the Avengers are required to give some kind of after-action report for any big battles. It would be in line with the whole ‘oversight’ thing the Sokovia Accords are supposed to be about, and we know at least Rhodes was 1.) Present for both battles against Thanos 2.) Survived the Snap and 3.) An Avenger of mostly-good standing, so whatever oversight committee had at least one eye witness able to give a full report and that’s assuming every other superhero on both battlefields and the surviving higher-ups of Wakanda either weren’t asked or refused to talk about it - which I think is a stretch. If the War Machine armor has a camera in it they might even have video.

[hungrycrow]

My pet theory regarding everyone knowing what happened in the movies it that the Avengers are required to give some kind of after-action report for any big battles. It would be in line with the whole ‘oversight’ thing the Sokovia Accords are supposed to be about, and we know at least Rhodes was 1.) Present for both battles against Thanos 2.) Survived the Snap and 3.) An Avenger of mostly-good standing, so whatever oversight committee had at least one eye witness able to give a full report and that’s assuming every other superhero on both battlefields and the surviving higher-ups of Wakanda either weren’t asked or refused to talk about it - which I think is a stretch. If the War Machine armor has a camera in it they might even have video.

Still kind of weird. Those battlefields were pretty chaotic and even with camera footage you wouldn't see all the important bits. Like, when Vision was killed, wasn't everyone else knocked out?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Like, when Vision was killed, wasn't everyone else knocked out?

Immobilized or otherwise defeated, but there were too many people up and about calling for their friends immediately afterwards for them to all be unconscious and just happen to wake up in time for the aftermath. I’d have to watch the movie again to see who was closest for what parts but Cap was nearby, and Thor was both conscious and literally within arm’s reach of Thanos when the Snap happened.

[hungrycrow]

Immobilized or otherwise defeated, but there were too many people up and about calling for their friends immediately afterwards for them to all be unconscious and just happen to wake up in time for the aftermath. I’d have to watch the movie again to see who was closest for what parts but Cap was nearby, and Thor was both conscious and literally within arm’s reach of Thanos when the Snap happened.

The point is, who saw Wanda kill Vision, then saw Thanos resurrect and rekill Vision, and decided that all of that needed to be public knowledge?

I also should probably rewatch that scene.

[Cikomyr2]

Also, let's not kid ourselves. I think humanity and SWORD was really backed against the wall during the Snaptime. They were working on the same scale as Rocket/Capt Marvel; galactic threats and defense while nations collapsed around the world because half the population went missing.

[Psyren]

"Your ancestors called it magic, and you call it Science. Well i come from a place where they are one and the same thing." -Thor to Jane Foster, first Thor movie.

Okay, and? Even if Loki and Agatha's illusions are a "science" that they are never ever going to bother explaining to you, what's the difference?

[Draconi Redfir]

Okay, and? Even if Loki and Agatha's illusions are a "science" that they are never ever going to bother explaining to you, what's the difference?

... What? "And?"? And nothing. you asked a question and i gave you the answer. That was a full sentence.

[Bugbear]

[QUOTE=Tyrant;24949978]I'm not going to claim to be the most well read Marvel fan, but I don't recall ever seeing anything like this. The only grand unifying theory I ever recall seeing was in Earth X (an alternate timeline) where it was said all super powers are derived from the X-Factor gene implanted by the Celestials. In the story everyone* on Earth had theirs activated by Terrigen Mists released by Black Bolt.

Well, again, I can only talk about pre 2000 Marvel Lore as after that they simply just changed everything to change everything more and not sell comics more or less.

Classic Marvel Lore is full of the Grand Unifying Theory : all powers of everyone on Earth come from the Celestials and all the powers are the same. Professor X has the mutant power of telepathy, Dr. Strange has the magic power of telepathy and Moondragon (or Mantis in the MCU) has the enhanced power of telepathy. But it's all the same.

From the 60s to 2000 every couple of the comics that tended to be a lot more "technical": Thor, The Avengers or The Fantastic Four would check this point, mention it, or otherwise use it as a plot story point. For example once upon a time Odin and Thantos fought. Odin went full immersion saying he would win the fight as his power was magic and was pure and holy and divine (anyone who has read an older Marvel comics knows Odin is not pure, holy or even close to good) and as Thantos's power is evil and dark and 'wrong'....Odin must win. Thantos points out power is power and it is all the same: they both tap and use multidimensional energy.

Tons of Dr.Strange comics also make this point. Some times Dr. Strange even casts a spell like "using the knowledge of Einstein" to make a black hole to kill a foe.

And in the MCU it is made clear that a mage is using a program("in the old days they said spell") to direct the energy to do what they want done.

That was the impression I was under. The bifrost was essentially advanced technology but Loki was using magic.

In Marvel it is all the same.

The Asguardians have tech advanced enough that it is "magic" to even them...but it is still all tech and science based.

The idea like taking Near Future tech: Some day soon people will have small computers implanted into their heads. This will act like a phone: call anyone world wide and be connected to the internet. Now advance that a couple years so it is a small living bio computer. And think of a universe wide phone/internet system(maybe say in subspace).

Then think of advanced science doing things like altering and changing cells and body parts. Doing things such as invisibility, illusions, energy projections, and so on.

That is where the Asgaedians are.

But once you are talking a bout a living bio phone/super computer as part of a persons brain.....you do cross that science/magic line...if you think that line exists.

[Tyndmyr]

You know ...

The reasons why you do not like Killmonger is precisely why people like him as a character. His grudge is with a dead man, he past was stolen from him, there can be no reconciliation, there is only the grudge, the jealousy, etc. 🎶 This Is The Point of No Return!!!

The trauma is fine. That part of the character works well. I can totally feel why someone who had everything stolen from him wants revenge. Easy.

But he's also a bit of a jerk. Offing his own girlfriend, for instance, and being apparently entirely unbothered by it. That's...deeply unsympathetic. Now, I'm not saying a villain has to always be sympathetic, but if they don't really value anything but their evil plot, they're a wee bit less three dimensional as characters.

I was also bothered by the fact that he's described as a professional soldier, but he never acts even vaguely like it. The portrayal, while admittedly fairly intense, doesn't match the role.

By the climactic fight scene, you just...don't care anymore. It's two invincible people scratching each other until they fall into the traintrack of convenience. You're just waiting for that fight to be over so we can get back to the interesting stuff.

Contrast with M'baku, whose portrayal perfectly matches his role, and even given only a bit of screen time, absolutely is amazing. He's a secondary antagonist who barely shows up, but every second he's around is engaging.

Anyways...back to Wandvision.

This episode was...not amazing. Not awful, but there was quite a lot of narration.

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And yet, for all that narration, very little was actually answered. Hayward's motivations still make little sense. Agatha is...okay, sort of has a plan, before she decided to go overtly evil for funsies. Her overall strategy seems...off.

The scenes in SWORD were fun, but all in all, I expected a little bit more reveal of the final conflict, some mystery, and the stakes at play, yknow?

Hayward seems *much* more reasonable in flashbacks. I will be quite disappointed if there is no reveal as to why.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Offing his own girlfriend, for instance, and being apparently entirely unbothered by it. That's...deeply unsympathetic. Now, I'm not saying a villain has to always be sympathetic, but if they don't really value anything but their evil plot, they're a wee bit less three dimensional as characters.

Agreed completely on this. I’m not sure how anyone can admire a person who murders his own lover the moment she becomes an inconvenience to his plans. And someone who was evidently integral to those plans, and clearly a true believer in both him and his cause.

Worst thing is, there was no point to killing her. Given his training and record, Killmonger is probably second only to Hawkeye as a marksman in the MCU, and he could’ve easily double-tapped Klaue without giving his lover a scratch. Killing her instead—is simply gratuitous, and beneath amoral.