Mafia/WW Red Atlantic Cruise

[Valmark]

I feel like they meant that all of us should stop, but how it's written definitely implies that. Freudian lapsus?

Beyond that, if you don't care about the spy rings, wouldn't that mean that you lied to Grek about your objective? Or that you aren't trying to win?
I feel like the first one is more likely.

I should say that I retreat everything I said about JeenLeen. I forgot that they were the first to vote for Gac3 which also led to them... Uh... Partially role-claiming? Plus it looks like Gac3 was indeed the informant, so they could have easily acted alone.

I forgot a question. Or to be more exactly, I don't remember if it was already answered: why do you think there is only one wolf?
Though it does look like there's multiple neutrals that have it out for each other so I guess the number of wolves could be small, even one.

[Lady Serpentine]

I'd normally expect 3-5 wolves in a 20~ player game; maybe even as many as six, if it's as heavy on power-roles as this game seems to be. On the other hand, the fact that there's only one wolf role given in what otherwise seems to be a very role-heavy game does imply that there's something going on - it's not like there aren't wolf-aligned powers to hand out.

[Elenna]

Actually, yeah, thinking about it some more I have a lot of questions about gac's claim...

Here's what Grek said

I have been contacted by someone claiming to be a 'Retired Interpol Agent' who alleges to have been informed at the start that the game setup involves a single Madman (a lone night-killer) and two separate Spy Rings (two or more 'normal' spies and a single 'counter-spy' who wins with the opposite Spy Ring instead of their own) who presumably win when they eliminate the opposite spy ring. The 'Retired Interpol Agent' says that they win if Madman and both Counter-Spies die while they themselves survive, irrespective of the Town win/loss. Assuming all of that is true (and the person in question has convinced me via secret information sufficiently that I'm taking it as true) means we have the following roles remaining:

Incidentally, the "irrespective of the Town win/loss" bit seems somewhat odd. Surely if the Madman dies (which is part of the Agent's win condition) then Town will definitely win? IDK, maybe it just means "if Town wins but you don't achieve your other win conditions then you don't win". I guess what's confusing me is that this role description feels more like a townie with extra win conditions, rather than a neutral, but "irrespective of the Town win/loss" is a phrase I would use to describe a neutral role. But this is a second- or third-hand role description so maybe I should stop nitpicking the wording.

Then gac says:

That said, I do not currently intend on publically proclaiming my role. In part because I feel it will make me a large target for the madman. My only real concern though is finding the madman.

But... Grek already stated your role? And he also stated that you wanted to find the counter-spies as well as the madman?

gac's explanation for this contradiction is

Okay. It seems most of the suspicion on me arises from me stating that the madman would target me and he is my only concern. Well I may have (very intentionally) left out that I am more worried about the spies. I don't know what they are after (besides presumably) the madman dead. That said, I have no specific reason to think they would target me but Grek seemed in agreement that they might if they hard my full role. That is why I said my only goal is the madman. While I figured I might have to explain my full role if I want to make it to the night, I wanted to get it out early to the spies that whatever their goals are, I'm not caring. I only care about who they are to the extent that it means they aren't the madman. But it is part of my win condition to survive and keep so many Innocents alive so I was hoping to avoid drawing their attention too much. I got extra paranoid when Grek was killed. Seems like a paranoid spy move more than a wolf. I'm still convinced our madman is inactive. The only way I know to confirm that is to stop trying to kill people at might and just do the day lynches with the info we gather at night. But I doubt that will happen.

So, is there more to your role than what Grek said? Because I still don't understand why you said you weren't publicly proclaiming your role when Grek already explained your role.
Also, I don't see any reason the spies would want to target you, but lying about your goals (saying you only wanted to find the madman) hardly seems like a good way to avoid drawing their attention, especially since that was already stated to be false by Grek...

Also, gac said

Let's start with what I know. I claimed my role to Grek after feeling confident they were town.

but also

I found [Grek] suspicious for not voting while acting like they were being active. I found voting all twelve wolves suspicious and might have moved my vote day 2 if not for them deciding not to vote, which seemed so strangely suspicious.

So you were suspicious of them day 2, but then later day 2 you felt confident enough they were town to claim to them? What happened?
I'm also kinda curious what this "secret information" is that convinced Grek that gac was telling the truth, but that's not really important since we know Grek was town, and I could understand if it needs to stay secret.

On a more minor (but still suspicious) note:

As far as wolf suspicions, I'm thinking there is only one still. If that's the case, I'm hesitant to suspect new players.

You sound oddly unsure of that for someone who was supposedly told by the narrator that there was only one wolf...

gac3, got any comments?

[Snowblaze]

...okay. So I’ve been mildly suspicious of gac3 this entire game, plus if (as people seem to be suggesting) they’re the informant I think that would seem to make them the madman.

But I’m not sure I like how quickly this wagon has sprung up based on very little evidence, and the key word here is mildly suspicious. I’m not entirely convinced by this wagon right now, and we need to get some proper counter-wagons going.

The thing is, I don’t really agree with the counter-wagons. However of the two players with one vote I’d say JeenLeen is the more suspicious.

[Lady Serpentine]

Right now, I'm on gac3 as a pressure wagon; that is, demand specific information and then move on if it's provided, so that the eventual lynch has more to go on. And it's early enough in the day that I think those are a good thing to be doing right now, since we don't have any seer claims to rely on.

[The Outsider]

Honestly, I agree with Snowblaze. And as suspicious as everyone seems to be of gac, he's made some rather good points concerning BasketOfPuppies. They're exhibiting a rather strange pattern for an experienced player, a pattern that makes far more sense if they're only stopping in to kill.

[JeenLeen]

Also Jeenleen, if you are a neutral who is in some kind of feud with another neutral, isn't it still dangerous to announce that much? Even without telling us who you are exactly? I guess if you know your rival doesn't have a night kill.

It is a touch dangerous so I was wary of doing it, but I was more concerned about drawing unwanted attention (aka, a bullet to the head) from a wolf or a town with a night-kill, since I know my talkativeness sometimes gets excessive and looks suspicious.

I don't have a night-kill power, just a standard "scry to see if someone is the person you want to kill" power. I PMed the person I scried Night 1 to tell them that I was neutral and cool with them. I scried Grek Night 2, but that was a waste as she died.
Since I don't have a night-kill, I reckon my rival also doesn't have one. It'd seem a bit unfair if that weren't the case, but if I die tonight, perhaps that means I was wrong.

I reckon at least one of the people voting for me is my rival. Which is good intel for me, I guess, if not very actionable.

But I'm very good with a Town win. I figure my goal right now is to keep the game going for a while so that my rival gets killed randomly.

[Xihirli]

It is a touch dangerous so I was wary of doing it, but I was more concerned about drawing unwanted attention (aka, a bullet to the head) from a wolf or a town with a night-kill, since I know my talkativeness sometimes gets excessive and looks suspicious.

I don't have a night-kill power, just a standard "scry to see if someone is the person you want to kill" power. I PMed the person I scried Night 1 to tell them that I was neutral and cool with them. I scried Grek Night 2, but that was a waste as she died.
Since I don't have a night-kill, I reckon my rival also doesn't have one. It'd seem a bit unfair if that weren't the case, but if I die tonight, perhaps that means I was wrong.

I reckon at least one of the people voting for me is my rival. Which is good intel for me, I guess, if not very actionable.

But I'm very good with a Town win. I figure my goal right now is to keep the game going for a while so that my rival gets killed randomly.

JeenLeen, in a game with one wolf “keeping the game going” is very much against town’s interest.

[JeenLeen]

JeenLeen, in a game with one wolf “keeping the game going” is very much against town’s interest.

Well, true, but I'm just being honest with my position as a Neutral. There's not much actionable that I can do to try to keep the game going beyond wherever I throw my vote. But right now gac3 seems as good an option as any, as well as being the only counterwagon to me.

But voting for me is voting for a neutral, so killing me doesn't put the Town any closer to getting the wolf and just helps the wolf survive another day.

I'll also note that I first claimed neutral when there were no, or maybe 1, vote on me and plenty of votes on others. I didn't have any reason to claim neutral to avoid getting lynched. Lynching me now seems wasteful of the town's resource of time.

[Xihirli]

That defense is WIFOM at best.
Frankly, Jeen, I don’t believe you’re neutral. In this game where nobody but the narrator knows all the roles, claiming is basically useless.

[Valmark]

What I'm not understandimg about Jeen is that they have been talking about a rival, homewever they say that at least one of those voting for them is their rival...

Do you have one or multiple rivals? Clearing that up (or not doing it) could either save you or damn you. We already know from Xeno's lynch that there are really spies- we can probably assume there are multiple, since it was specified that they were american.

So the cases are three (that I can see): case one, you've got multiple rivals. This looks like a fight between two factions, which probably means they already identified you and one of them could have a night kill power. So could one of you. This seems the most likely, but only by little. I'm still not entirely sure on how many things gac3 fabricated.

Case two: You've got multiple rivals but you're on your own. That... Seems pretty unfair to be honest? It doesn't help that your words don't add up. The only situation where I think this is plausible is if you are indeed the lone wolf and not some neutral.

Case three: One rival, you're alone. That would make sense, but you did specify that there are multiple rivals... Ugh.


The only sure thing is that you've been lying one way or another- at best, you're a target for neutrals, at worst you are a target for all of us.

[JeenLeen]

C'mon Xihirli, and you're the one I scried Night 1 and said I'm on your side regardless of who you are

Since it seems likely I'll be lynched and lose, I'll go full honesty in hopes of helping the Town. I think Grek and her informant (gac3?) are partially misinformed about the roles. That, or I don't know I have players reporting to me.

I'm a Counter-intelligence Spy for a country. My goal is for the other two Counter-Intelligence spies in the game to die. I think I was lucky in that the American one died already and so just another one still exists. I'm China. I forget what the other nation in play is.

I don't know anything about an interpol agent wanting us dead, or spies reporting to us (except as narrative fluff.) If there any PCs who need me to survive, well, help me out... but I'm guessing that the "having a ring of spies we control" is just narrative fluff.
So I'm thinking that there is a sub-plot of three spies trying to kill each other, maybe with an interpol agent trying to kill all of us, but it's tangential to the whole town-madman thing.

All that said, my guess is that those who voted for me include the madman and the remaining spy. The remaining spy because they can probably guess what I am and would thus try to kill me. But the madman voting for me, especially when the vote was mostly gac3, seems likely as a way to seem innocent.

I'm also leaning that Xihirli is NOT the madman, as I PMed her night 1 that I scried her and am cool with allying with her. If she were the murderer, I doubt she'd be putting heat on a prospective ally. Thus, I reckon she is town.

- - - Updated - - -

EDIT: checked my PM from Caerulea. Other nation is the USSR.

[Valmark]

I wonder... It feels strange that Gac3 would invent that there's two entire factions (as in, multiple per side) who have it out for each other. What's more, two instead of three? They don't know about you?

Homewever you do sound honest this time around. I guess we'll see from what Gac3 turns out to be?

I don't think you're actually risking a night kill now though- if what you said it's true, we can assume your enemies aren't capable of killing. I mean, you don't risk beyond the whole madman thing.

[Caerulea]

A reminder that the day ends at midnight EST, all votes must be submitted before then.

Current vote totals:

JeenLeen	3
gac3	4
BasketOfPuppies	2

[flat_footed]

Okay. Well that was... Interesting. Let's start with what I know. I claimed my role to Grek after feeling confident they were town. Knowing now that Unavenger was their lover and assuming they shared information, I suspect this mayorial decree was an attempt to force me to own up if I was lying to Grek. That said, I do not currently intend on publically proclaiming my role. In part because I feel it will make me a large target for the madman. My only real concern though is finding the madman.

gac3

It strikes me as terribly wolfy to prove your innocence by claiming you revealed yourself to Grek.

[PartyOfRogues]

Jeen Leen for a surprise last minute vote

[Caerulea]

End Day 3.

According to the official declassified reports, this is the night in which our agent, gac3, was lynched by the mob. He was the coordinator/leader of the American espionage division on cruise 283109 run by Atlantic Cruise incorporated.
gac3 died. They were an American spy.

Vote Tally:

gac3	5
JeenLeen	4
BasketOfPuppies	2
PartyOfRouges	1

Begin Night 3.

[Snowblaze]

...right... I mean, I’d just about accepted the idea of two factions of spies trying to kill each other, but three?

I’m even more confused than usual. Doesn’t the proof of there being at least two American spies mean JeenLeen is definitely lying? Or am I just misinterpreting it? It sounds to me like what you were saying is one spy from each of three countries... which is definitely false at this point.


(Also, Caerulea, you missed Silent_Interim's vote for PartyOfRouges in your vote count)

[JeenLeen]

...right... I mean, I’d just about accepted the idea of two factions of spies trying to kill each other, but three?

I’m even more confused than usual. Doesn’t the proof of there being at least two American spies mean JeenLeen is definitely lying? Or am I just misinterpreting it? It sounds to me like what you were saying is one spy from each of three countries... which is definitely false at this point.


(Also, Caerulea, you missed Silent_Interim's vote for PartyOfRouges in your vote count)

I'm confused, but wasn't lying.

I was told I'm the counter-intelligence person and leader of a ring of spies for China. Goal is to take out the leaders (counter-intelligence spies) for two other nations (US and USSR).
I thus believed that there were three players who were spies (me and my two rivals), each representing a different nation. The fact that two American spies have now died means I misunderstood.

I now also guess some players are Chinese spies, but I'm not in contact with them.
I wonder if gac3 really was Grek's informant or if they were lying and claimed to be a retired interpol agent to get her to trust him.

Also, pretty sure at least one person who voted for me is the USSR spy coordinator, since they win if I'm dead.

- - - Updated - - -

Caerulea clarified via my role's QT that I'm the counter-intelligence agent and my goal is to have the other two nations' coordinators die. There are non-coordinator spies as well as a coordinator.

So it might be that the other nations don't have counter-intelligence agents (though maybe they do). Maybe I'm the only Chinese in play, maybe there are more. Anyway, I know almost nothing about my own or my opposed spy rings except that there is a USSR Coordinator, I want them dead, and (due to my honesty to avoid lynching*) they now know I want them dead.

*and it seems that wasn't even needed! Nobody moved their votes off of me. That's what I get for assuming I had more votes!

[Valmark]

I feel like it's pretty obvious that Gac3 was lying. Don't ask me why they did though, I've yet to understand the point of their plan. Maybe they wanted to draw out the american enemies?
Though they were indeed Grek's informant, even though they seem to have given half-false news.

To be fair, I feel like there would have been no point in moving votes away from you, since you were never in the lead to be lynched.

Question: if one had removed their vote on Gac3, making them equal to JeenLeen, who would have been lynched? Tecnically Jeen was at quota 4 first, homewever Gac3 was OVER the number, not BELOW it.

That said, this takes us no further to knowing who the madman is.
Maybe we are the madmen and we don't know it. There was never a town to begin with- we are wolves cannibalizing each other. If that isn't crazy enough to be madmen, I don't know what is.

I'd like to point out the difference in naming. Counter-Intelligence Spy, Cohordinator(s?). Maybe it implies something important?

EDIT: Something came to mind.
How come do you only suspect those who voted for you? If there is indeed a love triangle here then the URSS might as well have voted for Gac3 if they knew they were american/the cohordinator.
Especially if we include the possibility that they have scrying powers. And yes, I know I'm on this list too.

I'd like to point out, before I forget, that Erin666 never elaborated on her suspiciouns.

[JeenLeen]

EDIT: Something came to mind.
How come do you only suspect those who voted for you? If there is indeed a love triangle here then the URSS might as well have voted for Gac3 if they knew they were american/the cohordinator.
Especially if we include the possibility that they have scrying powers. And yes, I know I'm on this list too.

I'd like to point out, before I forget, that Erin666 never elaborated on her suspiciouns.

My suspicion might be from thinking that there were just three spies, and thinking the American was dead from earlier in the game. But you're right: if there's three spy networks, and the American was still in play (which it was), then it could have been someone voting for gac3.

However, my admitting to being the Chinese one, while gac3 was sorta-claiming to be the interpol agent, probably made me more appealing if anyone has the win condition of killing the Chinese agent.

But you are right at least in that I have less info than I thought I did.


Somewhat funny: when I was reading gac3's death announcement, my internal thoughts went like: "Oh, he's a spy! That's both dead, so I won. Wait--he's American. But the American one already died. What's going on?"
Hmm... that doesn't sound remotely funny now that I typed it, but... don't feel like deleting it.

[Silent_Interim]

It's becoming increasingly apparent to me that I have no idea what's going on and that this game is a maelstrom of chaos and madness with only layers upon layers of lies and confusion, like an onion that you peel back the outer layers of only to discover there's an orange inside, and then the orange says "Hey, what's the big idea?" and you scream and the orange screams and everything descends into insanity and oh gods the SCREAMING-

...

I'm loving every minute of it.

[Snowblaze]

It's becoming increasingly apparent to me that I have no idea what's going on and that this game is a maelstrom of chaos and madness with only layers upon layers of lies and confusion, like an onion that you peel back the outer layers of only to discover there's an orange inside, and then the orange says "Hey, what's the big idea?" and you scream and the orange screams and everything descends into insanity and oh gods the SCREAMING-

...

I'm loving every minute of it.

Sounds about right!

[JeenLeen]

Was the Night supposed to end at midnight last night?
Someone noted this in the Mafia/WW Central thread, but it is surprisingly hard to keep track of the 48 hour cycles.

On the plus side, I at first figured the reason I didn't answer to my scry in my QuickTopic was because I was night-killed, so that not being the case is a nice surprise.

[Elenna]

Was the Night supposed to end at midnight last night?
Someone noted this in the Mafia/WW Central thread, but it is surprisingly hard to keep track of the 48 hour cycles.

Yes, I think it should have. But meh, it's the holidays...

[Caerulea]

Was the Night supposed to end at midnight last night?

Yes is was. I have internet for around 5 minutes right now, so I can't actually check everyone's actions. I'll be home tomorrow afternoon, so the night will end sometime before 18:00 EST in the new year. I apologise for this delay. I'll probably extend the next day a few hours as well to get back on schedule. I'm sorry for not letting y'all know in advance.

[Caerulea]

My long journey from the frozen wastes of New Hampshire is done, and now so is this endless night.
End Night 3.

Two shots go off in the night! When you awake, you find Erin666 lying dead in their bunk, a bullet in the head.
Erin666 was killed. They were a passenger.

Begin Day 4.
(Day 4 will end on 00:00 January 4th)

[Lady Serpentine]

Right. 's time for a seer wagon, sort of. PartyofRouges needs to die today, and if they're not the wolf, it's time to lynch JeenLeen. I was holding off to find out more information, but my role doesn't work like I thought it did, so I didn't actually get confirmation of which one is one. But one of them was responsible for killing Grek, so let's go!

[Snowblaze]

So there are some powerless people? Or is that not what “passenger” means?

Anyway, as usual:

Spoiler: Day Three Vote Count

Show

gac3 5 (JeenLeen, C’nor, Valmark, Elenna, flat_footed)
JeenLeen 4 (Erin666, Snowblaze, Xihirli, PartyOfRouges)
BasketOfPuppies 2 (gac3, The Outsider)
PartyOfRouges 1 (Silent_Interim)
Posted without voting: none
Didn’t post: flyinglemur, Chrysocolla, Erin666

That being said, PartyOfRouges. Actual evidence is a lot better than whatever I could come up with, so let’s test it.

[Silent_Interim]

I would just like to note that I was suspicious of, and voting for, PartyOfRogues before it was cool the seer claim.