Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

[Betropper]

Hey, throwing my 2cp in again.

Gibbering Mouther:
1) Not sure what is going on with the BAB. It looks like 1/2(poor) progression, but it starts with a +1 at first level. 1/2 and 3/4 BAB have a +0 at first level, with the rounding down and stuff. The save progression is all wonky, too. There is a table somewhere in the thread that should help, or just look at any of the classes in the PHB and use good/bad saves from that.
2) For Gibbering, do you think you could come up with something between Confusion and Insanity? There are a lot of levels where the ability is the same, while everyone else is getting new stuff. Not sure how much of a problem that is or how hard it would be to find something else, but it seems a little... Off.
3) I like how you made it harder to get out of being Engulfed, but I'm still not sure what the DR/- is about. Also, is it just 2 failed saves, or 2 consecutive rounds with the Mouther attached? Just asking, because with as many bite attacks as it has, you could pretty easily get two bites on a target and Engulf them right off the bat. Hilarious and awesome, but it might need a little clarification. Maybe. Either that, or I just suck at making sense out of things like this.
Other then that, I like this class. For a seething monstrosity of craziness, it has a bunch of fun stuff that could make it an interesting character. While it might be better as a villain(confusion will affect teammates as well), I like the propensity it has for cutting off retreat with Ground Manipulation, a ranged attack option(at the perfect range for sneak attack!), and generally holding the opponents down when it does get into melee.

Umber Hulk: Can I say how much I like this concept right off the bat? Giant bug that beats people with whatever weapon is at hand? Heck yeah!
1) Huh. D8 hit die and 3/4 BAB seem a little on the low side for a primary melee-ist, but it makes sense as an aberration with a bunch of cool combat abilities.
2) There seems to be an extra line with "Umber Hulk" all by itself under Class Features. And 'by' should probably be 'buy' when it comes to armor.
3) With Object=Pain, does the person-flail take any damage from being used to smack enemies around? It seems like they should...
4) With Wreck the Earth, the Ref save= 1/2 STR seems a little on the low side. I mean, I know that your should be sending your strength into the stratosphere with this class, but even if you get your strength up to 30, the DC is only 15. However, maybe that is the way you want it, with only the people that really flub their saves to fall over. Even so, something more conventional might work better. Also, perhaps give a bonus on the save if they have 5 ranks in balance, or something like that. You might also want to redo the save on the 12HD flying version to something more conventional, too.
5) Does WAAAAARRRGGG! end if the bonus hit points you get from the CON increase puts you over 25% of your original HP? I'd have to work out the math, but I think it could also put you over 25% of your new HP, so what happens then? Still, I would not want to be anywhere near a wounded, raging Umber Hulk, just by looking at this. Which means that you are doing a great job with this class.
6) The Tools of the Trade weapons don't feel much like improvised weapons to me. Maybe something about them falling apart after a confirmed crit, or a nat. 1 on an attack roll. However, this isn't really necessary, so much as a flavor thing.
This class is AWESOME. I would play this in a heartbeat, just because you go around wrecking things, then using the wreckage to wreck other things. How much cooler can you get?

More to critique to come, hopefully. If you guys don't mind my "lowest common denominator of understanding" perspective.

Finally got around to doing this, but the Mouther is updated

EDIT: I buffed Engulf a bit more since a single save can make you escape.

[Betropper]

Dwarf Ancestor

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[Original Post]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: The dwarf ancestor's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: History (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Listen (Wis), & Spot (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int mod) x4.
Skill Points at each additional level: 4+ Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special Ability
1|+1|+2|+0|+0|Ancestor Body, Ancestral Spirit +1, Ancestral Knowledge, +1 Str
2|+2|+3|+0|+0|Power Attack, Dwarven Warcraft, +1 Con
3|+3|+3|+1|+1|Dwarven Hammer, Hardening, +1 Str
4|+4|+4|+1|+1|Moderate Fortification, Ancestral Spirit +2, +1 Con
5|+5|+4|+1|+1|Stone Hammer, Blink Out, Growth, +1 Str,
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Stone Warcraft, Improved Hardening, +1 Con
[/table]


Ancestor Body: The dwarf ancestor loses all other racial traits and becomes an outsider with the native subtype. The dwarf ancestor has the following characteristics:

• Darkvision 60ft
• Proficient with all simple and martial weapons. Not proficient with any type of armor or shields.
• Does not need to eat, sleep, or breath, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes' feats and potions. Spellcasters must still rest for 8 hours before regaining spells for the day.
• Natural Armor bonus equal to Constitution modifier
• Damage Reduction (Adamantine) equal to Half Hit Die (minimum DR 1/Adamantine).
• Living Plate
• Light Fortification
• Dwarven Heritage

• Living Plate: The Dwarf Ancestor's body is actually a form of living stone that provides a +4 armor bonus and resembles full plate. This living plate is not natural armor and does not stack with other effects that give an armor bonus (other than natural armor). The living plate occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and thus a dwarf ancestor cannot wear armor or magic robes. Dwarf ancestors can be enchanted just as armor can, though the ancestor dwarf must be present for the entire time it takes to enchant him.
  
  Living plate also provides an dwarf ancestor with a 5% arcane spell failure chance, though any class ability that allows an ancestor dwarf to ignore the arcane spell failure chance for light armor lets him ignore this penalty as well.
  
• Light Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a dwarf ancestor, there is a 25% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
  
• Dwarven Heritage (Ex): The dwarf ancestor counts as a dwarf for the purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes, as well as using dwarf only magic items.

Ancestral Spirit (Su): Any ally (including the dwarf ancestor) within 30ft of the dwarf ancestor gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 every 4 character levels.

Ancestral Knowledge (Ex): Levels in dwarven ancestor count as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats that require a minimum number of fighter levels.

Power Attack (Ex): At 2nd level the dwarf ancestor gains Power Attack as a bonus feat.

Dwarven Warcraft (Ex): The dwarven ancestor learns the fighting technique of the heroic dwarven defenders. Any opponent that the dwarven ancestor threatens takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls against the dwarven ancestors allies. The penaly does not apply to attacks made against the dwarven ancestor, and enemies the dwarven ancestor threatens become aware of the consequences of this fighting technique.
How long does this last?

Dwarven Hammer (Ex): As a standard action the dwarven ancestor may make a single melee attack. This attack deals an extra +2d6 damage and automatically overcomes damage reduction and hardness.
Whoa, extra +2d6 at third level that can easily smash enemy weapons? make the damage scale and add a limit to uses.

Hardening (Ex): The armor bonus provided by the dwarf ancestors living plate increases to +6.

Moderate Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a dwarf ancestor, there is a 75% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

Stone Hammer (Ex): As a standard action the dwarven ancestor may make a single melee attack. This attack deals an extra +4d6 damage and automatically overcomes damage reduction and hardness.
Same as above, VERY strong.

Blink Out (Su): Once per encounter as a free action the dwarf ancestor can become incorpreal until the beginning of it's next turn. Activating this ability is a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Growth (Ex): At 5th level the dwarf ancestor increases in size to Large (tall).

Stone Warcraft (Ex): The dwarf ancestor reaches out to the earth and stone beneath him, buckling the ground and rippling the dirt. While you are standing on the ground, any opponent that you threaten that takes any sort of movement provokes an attack of opportunity from you. The opponent provokes the attack before leaving the threatend area and opponents may not use the withdraw action when they are in your threatend area.
May not use withdraw at all? that means you can just run next to an unarmed guy and he can only use unarmed attacks unless he moves, which makes an AoO. Also, if you catch him in a corner he can't do anything much.

Improved Hardening (Ex): The armor bonus provided by the dwarf ancestors living plate increases to +8.

Tome of Battle Adaptation

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If your campaign is using the Tome of Battle make the following changes to the Dwarf Ancestor.

• Ancestral Knowledge (Ex): Levels in dwarven ancestor are counted as full initiator levels when used to determine the initiator level of a multiclass dwarven ancestor/initiating class (crusader, swordsage, warblade). Most initiating dwarven ancestors are Crusaders.
• Dwarven Warcraft (Ex): This ability counts as a Devoted Spirit maneuver for the purposes of determing the number of Devoted Spirit maneuvers a dwarven ancestor knows.
• Stone Warcraft (Ex): This ability counts as a Devoted Spirit maneuver for the purposes of determing the number of Devoted Spirit maneuvers a dwarven ancestor knows.
• Dwarven Hammer (Ex): This ability counts as a Stone Dragon maneuver for the purposes of determining the number of Stone Dragon maneuvers a dwarven ancestor knows.
• Stone Hammer (Ex): This ability counts as a Stone Dragon maneuver for the purposes of determing the number of Stone Dragon manevuers a dwarven ancestor knows.

Comments/Changelog

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Updated: 12/12/2011

I removed Cleave & Supreme Cleave and reduced the ability bonuses to +3 Str, +3 Con, staggered out over the levels. I increased the fortification to moderate and made Ancestral Spirit scale with character levels.

Added in two abilities that mimic two Devoted Spirit stances and two abilites that mimic two Stone Dragon maneuvers.

In a ToB campaign these abilities help with a multiclassed dwarven ancestor. In a regular game the dwarven ancestor instead uses his levels in dwaren ancestor to qualify for fighter feats.

The DA also can use dwarf only magic items and can take dwarf only feats and prestige classes.

Overall the class now has things it can do in combat - technically. It gets a basic attack that does better damage. It's passive abilities help out in combat, by focusing the enemies attacks on itself and having enemies provoke AoO's. Moderate Fortification is also a big boost for combat staying power.


Original Comments:
I took a page from the Warforged and gave the dwarf ancestor a version of composite plating that can be enchanted. The armor bonus increases as the dwarf ancestor gains levels until at level 6 the living plate grants a +8 armor bonus.

The dwarf ancestor's natural armor gets reduced significantly to balance this, thereby avoiding the trap of having a really high natural armor bonus but not being able to wear armor.

Blink Out is modified to once per encounter and Ancestral Spirit is changed to all allies (not just dwarves).

Supreme Cleave helps out with an otherwise lack-luster combat option.

Overall the dwarf ancestor is a simple tank, with a high armor class and good damage reduction. It doesn't come with advanced combat tactics built in but is instead a good chassis for melee characters.

Overall, It seems a fairly balanced class.

[Benly]

I'm sorry, it seems I must have missed your fix. If you could repost it, that'd be great... thanks!

That's a fair point, I'll reduce the abilities that the YMZ retains, and limit the minions to having a maximum HD each.

The idea I suggested is that the YMC has lesser and greater YMZs. Lesser YMZs lose all Su, Sp, and non-attack Ex abilities, so they're basically meatshields like skeletons and zombies. The Creeper can promote YMZs to "greater Yellow Musk Zombies" (perhaps these are the ones that are starting to flower or something) which retain most Ex, Su, and Sp abilities but lose those that duplicate spells equal to or higher than the highest level that a wizard of level matching the YMC's HD could cast. (Thus, for example, a 8-HD YMC's greater YMZs would only get spell-likes and Su abilities up to third-level spells. In the case of the Mind Flayer I've been rambling about, it would keep Levitate, Detect Thoughts and Suggestion but lose Plane Shift and Charm Monster.) The maximum number of greater YMZs that can be controlled at a time would be dependent on HD; the ability to create them could itself be HD-locked.

It's kind of a weird and complicated suggestion, but it's actually roughly intended to match the major canonical D&D minion-controlling archetype, the necromancer. I specifically modeled this structure to an extent on the dread necromancer, which is one of my favorite classes. The dread necro generally speaking has two "pools" of controlled undead: Animate Dead, which creates generic expendable meat shields, and Rebuking, which is used to control everything else. Because Rebuking is your only reliable option for the most interesting undead and it's a smaller pool, a DN will tend to end up with a large supply of mindless bruisers and a few oddities with interesting special abilities. So, yeah, that's the rationale.


While I'm looking over the YMC, it strikes me that it might make sense to give a target continuing saves to break the effect of the Musk Puff after each round that his brain is being eaten or that he's attacked by the creeper and/or the creeper's allies. In terms of a monster encounter it makes sense to have it the way it is, because it's assumed that the victim's allies will be trying to get him free of the brain-eating vines, but you can't assume that a PC's enemies will always be structured that way - against a lone enemy or poorly-organized enemies, the musk puff is pretty much a guaranteed successful brain-eating against each enemy it hits, and at higher levels you can spam it out multiple times per round with a pretty decent range so that even better-organized enemies will be quickly overwhelmed. It becomes a bit less potentially excessive if there's a chance that the YMC might have to use extra puffs to keep previously-captured enemies subdued, and introduces the tactical choice between eating the brains and risking a breakout or simply puffing an enemy and keeping him subdued in your space while his allies are dealt with.

[Hyudra]

As stated, you can take all abilities multiple times.

Yeah, but stacking gains of +4 move silently is a bit much.

You get more abilities as you HD up-- so of course I wanted abilities referencing all the class abilities of the class.

Again, you gain flowering after you have gained those abilities, so I want to have options that improve 4 levels of abilities, not 2.

It's confusing on the first readthrough. Add text with something like "See [ability name] below for details on regeneration/zombies"?

In... what way does it break that flavor? All it does is allow you to embrace people standing next to you, as well as directly inside you.

I think it's just that instead of drawing people into you, you're reaching out to ensnare them... and the latter has been done to death (just recently too, look at Grell.) I think it's a little cooler & better to set oneself apart by having your schtick be drawing enemies into your space (or moving into theirs).

Well, it was suggested to me a while back that for scaling growth progressions, using powerful build in intervals was a good way to go. Further, the core monster is CR 4, and huge size. It IS a big monster. By the time you're 20th level, you're essentially a wall of roiling vines covered in heady scented flowers.

Sure, but, I think the point of staggered growth was to make it smoother, not make it ... ah ... giant. Still, I changed that.

Ok, here's the issue, since I mentioned this in reference to both Ankheg & Yellow flower vine thingy. Giants are... they're really strong guys. They're powerful to the extent that, if you shrunk them to be 6' tall, they'd still be able to fight solo through a squadron of soldiers & toss people around like rag dolls. Powerful build simulates that, and that's fine as far as Goliaths and Giants and Titans and other brute creatures. They're strong enough that they take the physically awkward and impossible feats of strength (like swinging around a bastard sword longer than you are tall, or lifting a squirming opponent that weighs 3/4 what they do over their head) and they can do it without embarrassing themselves.

So when it comes to creatures like Ankheg and the Yellow Vine Flower Musk Creeper Thing, you're taking powerful build and you're taking something that simulates disproportionate feats of strength and using it instead to equate a middle ground in size. This can work as far as a creature or creature dynamic goes, in terms of a brutish kind of growth, but I really feel like it's being misapplied in 90% of instances, and this bugs me because I was the one who originally implemented it (I didn't originally come up with the idea, but I did put it into action), and I feel responsible.

It's very similar to what a necromancer caster would get. Necromancers get control of 4 HD of undead per level. Further, you lose many of your abilities when you become a YMZ, just like becoming a skeleton. And as for the group dynamic argument, the same could be said for any character with minions. 4 HD per level is enough to get up to 4 useful minions, or more that are less useful.

Benly put it best.

I can't help but think of Heroes of Newerth's Ophelia when I think of ways I'd implement the Yellow Puffy Flower (Remembered what it was called, stubbornly refusing to change my ways). Ophelia was a fairly squishy, limited and one dimensional character, but her Command ability basically lets her control up to three minions from around the battlefield. By using the abilities and options these minions afford her, she becomes a fairly versatile combatant. I think the Musk Vine could be created very much in this same vein.

As is, though, you totally break the action economy by potentially controlling hordes of minions, who, by way of sheer options, allow you to totally do away with your teammates and take a stab at soloing the rest of the campaign. Which is terrible.

And for the record, we're not balancing against tier 1 classes (which a necromancy specialized wizard/cleric would & could be).

[Magicyop]

The idea I suggested is that the YMC has lesser and greater YMZs. Lesser YMZs lose all Su, Sp, and non-attack Ex abilities, so they're basically meatshields like skeletons and zombies. The Creeper can promote YMZs to "greater Yellow Musk Zombies" (perhaps these are the ones that are starting to flower or something) which retain most Ex, Su, and Sp abilities but lose those that duplicate spells equal to or higher than the highest level that a wizard of level matching the YMC's HD could cast. (Thus, for example, a 8-HD YMC's greater YMZs would only get spell-likes and Su abilities up to third-level spells. In the case of the Mind Flayer I've been rambling about, it would keep Levitate, Detect Thoughts and Suggestion but lose Plane Shift and Charm Monster.) The maximum number of greater YMZs that can be controlled at a time would be dependent on HD; the ability to create them could itself be HD-locked.

It's kind of a weird and complicated suggestion, but it's actually roughly intended to match the major canonical D&D minion-controlling archetype, the necromancer. I specifically modeled this structure to an extent on the dread necromancer, which is one of my favorite classes. The dread necro generally speaking has two "pools" of controlled undead: Animate Dead, which creates generic expendable meat shields, and Rebuking, which is used to control everything else. Because Rebuking is your only reliable option for the most interesting undead and it's a smaller pool, a DN will tend to end up with a large supply of mindless bruisers and a few oddities with interesting special abilities. So, yeah, that's the rationale.


While I'm looking over the YMC, it strikes me that it might make sense to give a target continuing saves to break the effect of the Musk Puff after each round that his brain is being eaten or that he's attacked by the creeper and/or the creeper's allies. In terms of a monster encounter it makes sense to have it the way it is, because it's assumed that the victim's allies will be trying to get him free of the brain-eating vines, but you can't assume that a PC's enemies will always be structured that way - against a lone enemy or poorly-organized enemies, the musk puff is pretty much a guaranteed successful brain-eating against each enemy it hits, and at higher levels you can spam it out multiple times per round with a pretty decent range so that even better-organized enemies will be quickly overwhelmed. It becomes a bit less potentially excessive if there's a chance that the YMC might have to use extra puffs to keep previously-captured enemies subdued, and introduces the tactical choice between eating the brains and risking a breakout or simply puffing an enemy and keeping him subdued in your space while his allies are dealt with.

Okay, some thoughts: I like the Greater Musk Zombies idea. Maybe it can have a maximum of 2 HD per HD of GYMZ promoted, and these must be the ones which are older than 2 months and able to roam freely.

Further, I'll make it so they get an additional save every dice of rounds, but the Yellow Musk Creeper may puff them again to deny them their next save.

[DragonOfUndeath]

And for the record, we're not balancing against tier 1 classes (which a necromancy specialized wizard/cleric would & could be).

The author stated he was using the Dread Necromancer as a guide not the Necro Cleric or Necro specialized Wizard

[Benly]

And for the record, we're not balancing against tier 1 classes (which a necromancy specialized wizard/cleric would & could be).

For what it's worth, the dread necromancer is tier 3 and I think it is an excellent model for a minion-themed PC. It's not the horde that makes a necromancer wizard T1. A dread necro does get powerful minions with special abilities (if nothing else, Create Undead for bone/corpse creatures), but they're relatively limited by his rebuking compared to the vast hordes of skeleton and zombie chaff.

(This does become broken if dread necros try to do the ridiculous trap room/Planar Binding/Corpse Efreet business - which is why I tried to specifically counter that kind of nonsense in my proposal for greater YMZs.)

Edit:

Okay, some thoughts: I like the Greater Musk Zombies idea. Maybe it can have a maximum of 2 HD per HD of GYMZ promoted, and these must be the ones which are older than 2 months and able to roam freely.

Further, I'll make it so they get an additional save every dice of rounds, but the Yellow Musk Creeper may puff them again to deny them their next save.

An extra save every d8 rounds is a very long time being helpless for an at-will ability that becomes twice per round rather early on, and is very likely to be enough for the YMC to finish eating the brains before the target gets another save. By comparison, a mind flayer needs to pass a minimum of two grapple checks to eat a brain, almost certainly at least three, and quite possibly more, while the musk puff -> mind eater combination is essentially a guaranteed kill once the initial save is failed.

[Hyudra]

The author stated he was using the Dread Necromancer as a guide not the Necro Cleric or Necro specialized Wizard

I suspected that was the case, but it was vague & I had enough tabs open I wasn't able to go back and check the comments for the YMC to see. Figured it was better to state the fact and be wrong than to let it slide and have MagicYop continue on a tragically screwed up baseline assumption.

Edit:

...

See above.

[Magicyop]

Yeah, but stacking gains of +4 move silently is a bit much.

Fair enough, I will reduce stacking bonuses.

It's confusing on the first readthrough. Add text with something like "See [ability name] below for details on regeneration/zombies"?

Okay.

I think it's just that instead of drawing people into you, you're reaching out to ensnare them... and the latter has been done to death (just recently too, look at Grell.) I think it's a little cooler & better to set oneself apart by having your schtick be drawing enemies into your space (or moving into theirs).

Fair enough, should be partially fixed by the update you suggested earlier.

Ok, here's the issue, since I mentioned this in reference to both Ankheg & Yellow flower vine thingy. Giants are... they're really strong guys. They're powerful to the extent that, if you shrunk them to be 6' tall, they'd still be able to fight solo through a squadron of soldiers & toss people around like rag dolls. Powerful build simulates that, and that's fine as far as Goliaths and Giants and Titans and other brute creatures. They're strong enough that they take the physically awkward and impossible feats of strength (like swinging around a bastard sword longer than you are tall, or lifting a squirming opponent that weighs 3/4 what they do over their head) and they can do it without embarrassing themselves.

So when it comes to creatures like Ankheg and the Yellow Vine Flower Musk Creeper Thing, you're taking powerful build and you're taking something that simulates disproportionate feats of strength and using it instead to equate a middle ground in size. This can work as far as a creature or creature dynamic goes, in terms of a brutish kind of growth, but I really feel like it's being misapplied in 90% of instances, and this bugs me because I was the one who originally implemented it (I didn't originally come up with the idea, but I did put it into action), and I feel responsible.

Okay, that's a fair point. I still do like it as a "middle ground" of growth, and I may use it in the future (For things like Animated Object, I actually feel like it works.) But I suppose for the Yellow Musk Creeper, maybe it doesn't work.

Benly put it best.

I can't help but think of Heroes of Newerth's Ophelia when I think of ways I'd implement the Yellow Puffy Flower (Remembered what it was called, stubbornly refusing to change my ways). Ophelia was a fairly squishy, limited and one dimensional character, but her Command ability basically lets her control up to three minions from around the battlefield. By using the abilities and options these minions afford her, she becomes a fairly versatile combatant. I think the Musk Vine could be created very much in this same vein.

As is, though, you totally break the action economy by potentially controlling hordes of minions, who, by way of sheer options, allow you to totally do away with your teammates and take a stab at soloing the rest of the campaign. Which is terrible.

Okay, so, here's what I'll do. I'll first of all lower the limit to 3 HD per HD. No minion can have more HD than yours - 2. Most minions lose all supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary abilities, up to 1 HD per HD of minions can be upgraded to keep a very limited number of these abilities. And lastly, I'll lower the stacking flowering upgrade that allows for super minions.

And for the record, we're not balancing against tier 1 classes (which a necromancy specialized wizard/cleric would & could be).

I wasn't thinking Wizard/cleric-- I was thinking Dread Necromancer, which is Tier 3.
EDIT: Ninja'd on that subject.

[Rumel]

Demi-Lich

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Prerequisites:
To become a Demi-Lich, the character must meet the following requirements...

Race/Class:One level in any Lich class/Phylactery
HD:20+ only

Hit Dice: d12's (and change all previous HD to d12's)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

1st|

+0

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|Demi Body, Soul Steal, +1 Cha, +1 Arcane or Divine Caster Level

2nd|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+3

|Meta-Magic Feat, Darker Touch, +1 Wis, +1 Arcane or Divine Caster Level

3rd|

+1

|

+1

|

+1

|

+3

|Improved Darker Touch, +1 Int, +1 Arcane or Divine Caster Level

4th|

+2

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Meta-Magic Feat, Deathless Terror, +1 Cha, +1 Arcane or Divine Caster Level

5th|

+2

|

+2

|

+2

|

+4

|Soul Absorbtion, +1 Wis, +1 Arcane or Divine Caster Level

6th|

+3

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

|Greater Fell Defense, +1 Int, +1 Arcane or Divine Caster Level[/table]
Skills Points at Each Level: (2+Intelligence Modifier)
Class Skills: The Demi-Lich gains no class skills.

Proficiencies: The Demi-Lich gains proficiency with no weapons, armor or shields

Class Features: The following are the Class Features of the Demi-Lich...

Demi Body: The Demi-Lich retains all racial traits...

The Demi-Lich's size varies with it's previous size...

{table=Head]Previous Size|New Size|Weight

Tiny-Fine|Fine|1/2 pd.

Medium-Small|Diminutive|1 pd.

Huge-Large|Tiny|3 pd.

Colossal-Gargantuan|Small|5 pd.

[/table]

The Demi-Lich is effectively a huminoid skull with two gems for eyes. It gains no natural attacks. It's speed bocomes 60ft flight with perfect maneuverability. Obviously, it cannot use weapons or do anything requiring the use of a body. In addition, all spells cast by the Demi-Lich are considered to be Stilled.

Ability Score Increase:
At every level you gain an alternating mental ability score. +1 Cha at levels 1 and 4, +1 Wis at levels 2 and 5 and +1 Int at levels 3 and 6, for a total of +2 to Cha, Wis and Int at level 6.

Meta-Magic Feats:
At every second level, the Demi-Lich gain a Meta-Magic or Item Creation feat, but must meet all prerequisites.

Soul Steal:
The most feared ability of the Demi-Lich, once at first level and every 4HD you have above 20 you may store a creature's soul inside one of your gems ... Soul Steal allows you to trap a soul with a max HD equal to yours. Each gem is 150,000 Gp, 5,000 Xp or any mix of the two, like 75,000 Gp and 2,500 XP. They may be replaced by destroying them (simply wishing them gone) but in the process, releasing the trapped spirit. It allows a Fort save and is usable 1/day. (DC=10+HD+Cha mod)

Darker Touch:
The Demi-Lich may make a touch attack which deals 2d8+Cha mod points of negative energy damage.

Improved Darker Touch:
Any creature hit by the darker touch of a third level lich must make a fortitude saving throw(DC10+1/2HD+Cha mod) or become paralyzed. This paralysis last until removed, either by a remove paralysis spell or magic that can remove a curse. The paralyzed creature appears dead but a DC20 spot check or a DC15 heal check will reveal the creature is still alive. The creature takes 1 point of Con damage every hour (though, the Demi-Lich may stop this ability as a Free Action). Any caster trying to break this curse, must also make a CL check (DC=10+HD) or the cure attempt fails.

Deathless Terror:
A second level lich gains an aura of fear that effects any enemies in a 5ft per HD radius. Any enemy with fewer than twice the DemiLich's HD must make a will save (DC10+1/2HD+Cha modifier) or becomes panicked for 1 round per HD of the lich. If the creature has fewer than half the liches HD(rounded down), then the creature becomes Terrified instead and is still Panicked for 1 round on a successful saving throw. A creature that makes a successful saving throw is immune to this ability for 24 hours

Soul Absorbtion:
By placing a soul gem in one of your two eye sockets... It feeds you power from the original soul absorbed inside the gem. You may have two in at one time. At level 5 you gain 1/5 of one of the creatures mental ability scores. This ability is draining on the soul, so it can only give you power for two hours/HD of the creature. These must be used up in intervals of hours and once used up, the gem shatters, it falls out of the Demi-Lich's eye and turns to dust before it hits the ground. So a level 24 Demi-Lich trapped a creature with a Cha score of 24... 1/5 rounded down of 24 equals 4, so the Demi-Lich gets a bonus to Cha equal to 4.

[Magicyop]

Demi-Lich

Initial thoughts, before looking at any of the class features: Why is it so long? The actual template is what, +5 CR? Is there a good reason for breaking the CR rule in such a drastic way? You'd have to be a minimum of, like, level 40 to finish this PrC.

[Rumel]

Initial thoughts, before looking at any of the class features: Why is it so long? The actual template is what, +5 CR? Is there a good reason for breaking the CR rule in such a drastic way? You'd have to be a minimum of, like, level 40 to finish this PrC.

D****T!!! I looked at the CR, not the LA or +CR... So much wasted time...

[The Antigamer]

Initial thoughts, before looking at any of the class features: Why is it so long? The actual template is what, +5 CR? Is there a good reason for breaking the CR rule in such a drastic way? You'd have to be a minimum of, like, level 40 to finish this PrC.

Agreeing with Magic, holy crap is that too many levels. Not even going to look it over until it's reduced.

Also, ability bonuses every level were frowned on, or so I thought?

[Magicyop]

D****T!!! I looked at the CR, not the LA or +CR... So much wasted time...

Hey, don't stress it. A quick look over the class features tells me that it seems like you could pretty easily adapt it. It doesn't have huge options, the main thing it gets as it levels up is better versions of the abilities it has, along with some new abilities. Why not condense it down into the 6 level epic PrC, epic requirements, lich requirement, no BaB or Saves (Because Epic PrC) and make it so the abilities which now get improved as you level up, are instead quickly improved by HD.

Start there, then let's see what you've got.

[Rumel]

Agreeing with Magic, holy crap is that too many levels. Not even going to look it over until it's reduced.

Also, ability bonuses every level were frowned on, or so I thought?

Ok, I know how wrong it is now... Grrr...

Edit: Thanks, I'll finish it up really soon... Epic Level?... Really?... Hmm... I didn't think about that... I don't think it's that powerful, is it?

[Magicyop]

Ok, I know how wrong it is now... Grrr...

Edit: Thanks, I'll finish it up really soon... Epic Level?... Really?... Hmm... I didn't think about that... I don't think it's that powerful, is it?

It's an epic level template, man. The whole point of the template is that it's the epic level version of the lich. It's what epic level liches transform into. Its source is the Epic Level Handbook. If it's not epic, it'd be... strange.

[Rumel]

It's an epic level template, man. The whole point of the template is that it's the epic level version of the lich. It's what epic level liches transform into. Its source is the Epic Level Handbook. If it's not epic, it'd be... strange.

Ok, fixed the Demi-Lich... Easy critique for anyone whose interested.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Creepy Grin:
The Demi-Lich gains a Fear Aura with a radius of 5ft/HD to a max of 100ft at 20HD. Any creature inside who succeeds on it's save is shaken, and any creature who fails it's save is terrified (both for 1 hour). Those who make the save cannot become terrified by you for 24 hours, but are still shaken.

Demi-Lich has a MINIMUM HD of 20 so it automatically has a fear aura of 100 and everyone who sees you being shaken for an hour? at least? that seems overpowered

[Rumel]

Demi-Lich has a MINIMUM HD of 20 so it automatically has a fear aura of 100 and everyone who sees you being shaken for an hour? at least? that seems overpowered

Sorry (had it set to a level 29 class )

[Rumel]

Demi-Lich has a MINIMUM HD of 20 so it automatically has a fear aura of 100 and everyone who sees you being shaken for an hour? at least? that seems overpowered

Fixed it, anything else?

[DragonOfUndeath]

Fixed it, anything else?

how about every monster you see (and ally if it is read a certain way) is at least shaken in every fight you have unless you fight it after the hour is up but before 24 have passed (unlikely for most monsters)

[Rumel]

how about every monster you see (and ally if it is read a certain way) is at least shaken in every fight you have unless you fight it after the hour is up but before 24 have passed (unlikely for most monsters)

What? I changed that, now it's if they save they can't be affected for 24 hours... I'll re-word it better...

[The Antigamer]

Quick review because I need a break from studying.

Demi-Lich

Spoiler

Show

Prerequisites:
To become a Demi-Lich, the character must meet the following requirements...

Ability Scores:20+ in one or more mental abilities (Int, Wis or Cha).
Why? I don't think I've ever seen an ability score prerequisite for a PrC. Do you lose the PrC if your ability drops below 20 due to drain?
Feats:Craft Wonderous Item.
Already a requirement for Liches
Race/Class:One level in any Lich class/Phylactery
Level:20+ only

Hit Dice: d12's (and change all previous HD to d12's)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

1st|

+0

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|Demi Body, Soul Steal, +1 Cha

2nd|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+3

|Meta-Magic Feat, Fell Bite, +1 Wis

3rd|

+1

|

+1

|

+1

|

+3

|Stunning Touch, +1 Int

4th|

+2

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Meta-Magic Feat, Creepy Grin, +1 Cha

5th|

+2

|

+2

|

+2

|

+4

|Soul Absorbtion, +1 Wis

6th|

+3

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

|Meta-Magic Feat, Forceful Personality, +1 Int
[/table]
Skills Points at Each Level: (4+Intelligence Modifier)
Class Skills: The Demi-Lich’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Cha), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Iaijutsu Focus (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Each listed individually), Knowledge (All skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Psicraft (Int), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Truespeak (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Psionic Device (Cha).

Proficiencies: The Demi-Lich gains proficiency with it's own natural bite attack, but no armor or shields

Class Features: The following are the Class Features of the Demi-Lich...

Demi Body: Starting at 1st level the Demi-Lich loses all racial powers and mods, but gains Undead traits…

Spoiler

Show

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

This stuff is all unneeded, since as a requirement you already have to be a lich. Lose it.
The Demi-Lich's size varies with it's previous size...

{table=Head]Previous Size|New Size|Bite Damage|Weight

Tiny-Fine|Fine|1d2|1/2 pd.

Medium-Small|Diminutive|1d4|1 pd.

Huge-Large|Tiny|1d6|3 pd.

Colossal-Gargantuan|Small|1d8|5 pd.

[/table]

The Demi-Lich is effectively a huminoid skull with two gems for eyes. It gains a natural bite attack as shown on the table above. It's speed bocomes 60ft flight with perfect maneuverability. Obviously, it cannot use weapons or do anything requiring the use of a body (which is a lot). In addition, all spells cast by the Demi-Lich are considered to be Stilled. Since the Demi-Lich cannot wear objects, he gains a strange ability, if his Phylactery is set in the chest of a body of items (gloves where his hands should be, a helm where his head should be and a ring on the glove and so on), he gains benefits as if he were wearing the object. When armor is placed on the imaginary body it's armor bonus becomes an invisible force protecting the Demi-Lich as a deflection bonus to AC and any weapon placed by the imaginary body's side, the Demi-Lich's bite gain the swords enchantment and bonuses (except, the bite attack deals Bludgeoning damage, so no Vorpal or Wounding). Additionally, the DC for all of the Demi-Lich's abilities is 10+1/2HD+Players Choice of Mental ability score Mod (Cha, Wis or Int). A Demi-Lich gains the spell-casting abilities of a Sorcerer with a level equal to his Demi-Lich class levels, but he gains no familiar. If the Demi-Lich already had a spell-casting class he instead gains an increased caster level in that class, if the Demi-Lich multi-classes into a Sorcerer their caster levels stack. So a Demi-Lich 3/Sorcerer 3 could cast level 3 spells.
I think the spellcasting needs re-wording.

Ability Score Increase:
At every level you gain an alternating mental ability score, for +2 to Cha, Wis and Int at level 6.

Meta-Magic Feats:
At every second level, the Demi-Lich gain a Meta-Magic or Item Creation feat, but may gain Epic Meta-Magic feats after 20 HD, but must meet all presiquites.
It's always over 20 HD...

Soul Steal:
The most feared ability of the Demi-Lich, every 4HD you have you may store another person's soul inside one of your gems (You may have a max of 8)... Soul Steal allows you to trap a soul with a max HD or CR becomes equal to your HD. Each gem is 150,000 Gp, 5,000 Xp or any mix of the two, like 75,000 Gp and 2,500 XP, and you may have a max of 1+1/every 4th level above 2. As that is very expensive for a low level, every time you would gain another gem, one appears in front of you unused. They may be replaced by destroying them (simply wishing them gone) but in the process, releasing the trapped spirit.
Ok....what? The ability sounds cool, but the mechanics are severely lacking.

Fell Bite:
The Demi-Lich's bite attack deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage every 5HD levels above 2.
See, I don't even understand why we're focusing on bite? No self-respecting demi-lich goes around bighting people. Plus, can't a Demi-Lich be any bone, not just a skull?

Stunning Touch:
By biting a foe you may choose to stun him... If you succeed on a bite attack, you may choose to make it a stunning blow, if the foe fails a Fort save, he is stunned for 1d4+1 hours and cannot move... He is helpless and may be absorbed into a soul gem without gaining any saving throw. This is usable 1/day/HD. Every 2HD above 4 increase the time by one die size and +1, so at 8HD it becomes 1d8+3.
Again with the biting....

Creepy Grin:
The Demi-Lich gains a Fear Aura with a radius of 5ft/HD to a max of 200ft at 40HD. Any creature inside who fails it's save is shaken for 1 hour. Those who make the save cannot become shaken by you for 24 hours.
Fix this up.

Soul Absorbtion:
By placing a soul gem in one of your two eye sockets... It feeds you power from the original soul absorbed inside the gem. You may have two in at one time. At level 5 you gain 1/5 of the creatures mental ability scores. So a level 24 Demi-Lich trapped a creature with a Cha score of 24... 1/5 rounded down of 24 equals 4, so the Demi-Lich gets a bonus to Cha equal to 4.
Again, mechanics

Forceful Personality:
You may choose either Int, Wis or Cha and get that abilities mod as a "Misc" bonus to AC.
This should be a first-level ability...

All in all, this class...needs a lot of work. Demi-liches don't bite people, they crush them with spellcasting might. As is, why would anyone become one?
You need some better abilities, and you should cut out redundant stuff, like gaining undead traits when it's already a requirement that it must be undead.

[Tokuhara]

Note: This isn't my work, but a friend of mine's

Spoiler

Show

leShay

As elves are to humans, so are leShay to the elves (but more
so): a race immortal, enigmatic, and exceptionally powerful.
LeShay look like tall, thin, albino elves, except that
they lack the oversized ears of true elves (leShay ears
look more like half-elf ears) and, while they have the
glossy dead-white hair of true albinos, their eyes are pits
of darkness. Some affect a particular color or style,
while others change their outfits from moment to
moment. All are deeply concerned with etiquette, decorum,
and receiving the respect they feel due; failure to
meet their standards of politeness, or simply crossing
one of their whims, can often be fatal.
LeShay never die from age or disease; they perish only if
killed. LeShay are the mere remnant of a once-great race
whose origins are lost to history. They claim to predate the
current multiverse and refer darkly to some catastrophe
that not only wiped out most of their people but changed
time so that their era never existed, even in the remotest
past. Attempting to undo the catastrophe would apparently
result in another disaster even more terrible, so the decimated
survivors—less than gods but more than mortals—
for the most part merely attempt to amuse them selves and
stave off ennui as they work out their individual destinies.
LeShay have great facility at languages (as per the
Polyglot epic feat) and can speak any language within
seconds of hearing it spoken for the first time, right
down to the most courtly or impressive accent thereof.



HD Base Attack F/R/W/ Special:
1 :2d6 +1 0/2/2 Leshay Weapon,Gaze,superior two-weapon fighting,Elf Traits,feat,quick draw,+1dex,+1cha
2 :4d6 +2 0/3/3 Speak with plants,dodge,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
3 :5d6 +3 1/3/3 feat,combat casting,+1dex,+1con,+1cha
4 :7d6 +4 1/4/4 Alter Self,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
5 :9d6 +5 1/4/4 expertise,+1str,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
6 :11d6 +6/+1 2/5/5 Water Breathing,feat, blind fight,+1dex,+1con,+1cha,+1 Natural armor
7 :13d6 +7/+2 2/5/5 endurance,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha,+5 insight to armor
8 :14d6 +8/+3 2/6/6 improved initiative,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
9 :16d6 +9/+4 3/6/6 knock,feat,mobility,+1dex,+1con,+1cha
10:18d6 +10/+5 3/7/7 weapon finesse(leshay),+1str,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
11:20d6 +11/+6/+1 3/7/7 detect thoughts,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha,+1 Natural armor
12:21d6 +12/+7/+2 4/8/8 feat,combat reflexes,+1dex,+1con,+1cha
13:23d6 +13/+8/+3 4/8/8 displacement,weapon focus(leshay),+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
14:25d6 +14/+9/+4 4/9/9 iron will,+1str,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+2cha,+5 insight to armor, Fast healing 5
15:27d6 +15/+10/+5 5/9/9 feat,toughness,+1dex,+1con,+1cha
16:29d6 +16/+11/+6/+1 5/10/10 freedom,power attack,+1dex,+1int,+1cha
17:30d6 +17/+12/+7/+2 5/10/10 cleave,+1dex,+1con,+1cha,+1 Natural armor
18:32d6 +18/+13/+8/+3 6/11/11 spell turning,feat,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
19:34d6 +19/+14/+9/+4 6/11/11 sunder,+1str,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
20:36d6 +20/+15/+10/+5 6/12/12 greater dispelling, alertness,+1dex,+1con,+1cha
21:38d6 +20/+15/+10/+5 6/12/12 feat,spring attack,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha,+5 insight to armor
22:39d6 +21/+16/+11/+6 7/13/13 Improved Critical (leShay weapon),+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha,+1 Natural armor
23:41d6 +21/+16/+11/+6 7/13/13 improved invisibility, whirlwind attack,+1dex,+1con,+1cha
24:43d6 +22/+17/+12/+7 8/14/14 feat,great cleave,+1str,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
25:45d6 +22/+17/+12/+7 8/14/14 heal,feat,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+1cha
26:46d6 +23/+18/+13/+8 9/15/15 ***blinding speed,+1dex,+1con,+1cha
27:48d6 +23/+18/+13/+8 9/15/15 teleport without error,feat,polyglot,+1dex,+1con,+1in,+1cha
28:50d6 +24/+19/+14/+9 10/16/16 Spell Stowaway,+1str,+1dex,+1con,+1int,+2cha,+1 Natural armor,+5 insight to armor, Fast healing 5




LeShay Weapons (Su): Each leShay carries two personal
melee weapons that she manifests from her own
life essence. The weapon can change form as she shifts
from class to class, typically appearing as a bastard
sword (one in each hand). When not in combat, the
weapons simply do not exist, but leShay can “draw”
their weapons from nowhere as a free action. LeShay
weapons are considered light weapons for a leShay,
regardless of their size.

Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): A leShay
fights with a leShay weapon in each hand. Because these
weapons are extensions of its own body, the leShay does
not take an attack or damage penalty for attacking with
two weapons.

Gaze (Su): All creatures within 30 feet who meet the
gaze of a leShay become affected as if by charm monster.
A Will save (DC =hd) negates the effect. Each opponent
within range of a gaze attack must attempt a saving
throw each round at the beginning of his or her turn in
the initiative order. A leShay can also actively gaze as an
attack action by choosing a target within range, who
must then attempt a saving throw. LeShay are immune
to their own gaze.

Elf Traits: Immune to magic sleep spells and effects;
+2 racial bonus on Will saves against enchantment
spells or effects; low-light vision (can see twice as far as
a human in low-light conditions); entitled to a Search
check when within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door
as though actively looking for it; Martial Weapon Proficiency
(composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow,
longsword, and rapier) as bonus feats; +2 racial
bonus on Listen, Spot, and Search checks (already figured
into the statistics given above).

This is what my friend gave me. I just need the starting stuff. They are Medium Fey

[DragonOfUndeath]

That needs major reformatting

[Magicyop]

This is what my friend gave me. I just need the starting stuff. They are Medium Fey

Well, this isn't really a monster class of the type that we make here. This seems like a "Savage Species" monster class. If you'd like to work on that class here, I really suggest you read the homebrewing rules and guidelines and use the provided class template. All of that information is right in the first post.

Mostly because, as-is, it's so far away from what we do in this thread that it's going to be really hard to critique it. No offense to you or your friend of course.

[Tokuhara]

Well, this isn't really a monster class of the type that we make here. This seems like a "Savage Species" monster class. If you'd like to work on that class here, I really suggest you read the homebrewing rules and guidelines and use the provided class template. All of that information is right in the first post.

Mostly because, as-is, it's so far away from what we do in this thread that it's going to be really hard to critique it. No offense to you or your friend of course.

If you all can help, please do

[Rumel]

Reworded everything on the Demi-Lich, and changed the horrid attempt at gaining sorceror levels to "+1 Arcane or Divine Caster Level" and changed all references of "bite" to "touch attack". Anything else I missed?

[Mystic Muse]

Tokuhara My suggestions right now are remove the ability boosts, reduce the hit die to a D8, and make the hit dice scale properly. If you can put the stats into a table, that would really help readability. Reducing the class to less than 28 levels is also a good idea.



Also, remove bonus feats for now.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Creepy Grin still shakes EVERYTHING that sees it automatically. That is a pretty powerful passive effect

sorry to keep on this bit but you haven't changed it