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2012-02-14, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
The deva's "We generally don't consider childhood escapades" statement:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html
seems pretty appropriate here- the presumption that dubious acts committed in childhood are "escapades" not having much bearing on afterlife destination- unless explicitly shown otherwise.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-02-14, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2012-02-14, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
When talking about D&D, we translate "dungeons" into "donjons", not "cachots" ;)
And D&D is a game (translate "un jeu"), but when you play a game of D&D, you have to translate "une partie" (totally unrelated with the english word "party").
"Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons." would be the proper translation of "This is not a game of D&D".
But why would you wrote it in French ?Last edited by Quild; 2012-02-14 at 09:08 AM.
Posting from France
Sorry for my accent.
Thanks to neoseph7 for my avatar (Allen Walker from D.Gray-Man)
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2012-02-14, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2012-02-14, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Love that book
Huh, suddenly the Deck of Many Things makes a lot more sense to me.
I presume his use of french was to lend the disclaimer an air of sophistication (as the french language is wont to do) but I could be way out in left field.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2012-02-14, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Also, Rich, you're going to start making the curator of the Giant Quotes thread work overtime soon.
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2012-02-14, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I believe he's referencing this.
Last edited by Yendor; 2012-02-14 at 09:27 AM.
Assistant Treasurer of the Haley fan club
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2012-02-14, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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2012-02-14, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2012-02-14, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Was it a paladin who killed her? And he didn't fall right after?
Because that'd be solid evidence that killing her was not an evil act... which means she must have deserved it somehow... right? Right?
Also... I was wondering... teh deva did point out that it matters to them that Roy is trying to be LG. When Redcloak refers to "those that call themselves good" who commit evil acts - and we all do irl - he's right. But he's also taking an easy out, no? And it's not as if gobbo culture as depicted in Oots were particularly non-evil. I mean, they're slaveholding, cruel, silly, cute buffoons. (And their architectural skills are not up to par. :D ) Gobbotopia will need all the help it can get.
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2012-02-14, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- Frankfurt, Germany
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
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2012-02-14, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
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2012-02-14, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Wrong. Please read this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=21
Here, The Giant explains why we don't know or see weather or not the paladins fall, and why the fact that we don't see it doesn't speak of the nature of the paladins' deed.
This post is brought to you by the Index of the Giant's comments.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195Nothing to see here, move along.
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2012-02-14, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Was it a paladin who killed her? And he didn't fall right after?
Because that'd be solid evidence that killing her was not an evil act... which means she must have deserved it somehow... right? Right?
I'm inclined to think that if paladins regularly fell because they slaughtered infants, they'd wise up and stop slaughtering infants, but who knows?
Also... I was wondering... teh deva did point out that it matters to them that Roy is trying to be LG. When Redcloak refers to "those that call themselves good" who commit evil acts - and we all do irl - he's right. But he's also taking an easy out, no? And it's not as if gobbo culture as depicted in Oots were particularly non-evil. I mean, they're slaveholding, cruel, silly, cute buffoons. (And their architectural skills are not up to par. :D ) Gobbotopia will need all the help it can get.
At this point, RC may have decided that since, if his plan fails, he's ultimately going to get slaughtered for being a goblin (and also the bearer of the crimson mantle) anyway, he might as well live it up. He and the other residents of Gobbotopia.
It's also important to note that in the OotS world humans are implied to engage in slave-trading as well. And humans in the real world certainly have kept slaves! We don't say all humans are evil, nor even "all humans from that area" just because some of them do evil things.
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2012-02-14, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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- Back in the USSR
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Because it's not a pipe, either.
Also I guess this is a successful thread, and one I'm probably not going to read, either, if it gained three and a half pages while I was sleeping.Spoiler
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2012-02-14, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I have read the whole thread so far.
I have very few things to say:
1- I think Nerd_Paladin's original post is a well thought, and well presented arguement that could be accepted or rejected, but that makes sense. Sadly, the back-and-forth discussion, as usual over the Net, gave birth to more and more bastard childs of the original point, but kudos to him nonetheless for trying to put down his thought in a non-confrontational and reasonable way in the first place. Personally, I am absolutely in love with Rich's work and Reddie is probably my favourite character bar none, but I can understand Nerd_Paladin's points.
2- The Giant replied with equally reasonable points, making interesting comments on the intents, goals and merits of his work. They are solid points, provide exceptional insight, and establish once and for all that Rich deserves all the praise everybody ever gave him. And more.
What saddens me just a bit, is that it seems unavoidable to slip from "I understand your point, I just see it different", to "well, you're wrong".
I see no need for people to tell Nerd_Paladin "Stop reading, then", when he's proven to be one of the few people who can be civil about his disagreement over an interesting aspect of the Order of the Stick (an aspect, might I add, that is there SPECIFICALLY to make people think about it)...
At the same time, seeing a reasonable poster fall in the "Your character is fael" trap is soul crushing.
Just my two cents.Last edited by Jan Mattys; 2012-02-14 at 10:43 AM.
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2012-02-14, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I have bookmarked this thread because of the Giant's posts. Both the posts about why we should take a closer look at the ugliness inherent in the alignment system and his points about the value of fantasy literature are spot on.
I don't know if there's anything else to add here, really.
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2012-02-14, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I have to disagree somewhat. Labelling creatures in a fantasy world as evil is not racism, unless you are identifying them with one of the supposed races of humanity. There is a tradition of using non-human species in fantasy and science fiction as analogues for races. But that is not the only way to deal with them. I prefer my non-humans to be truely non-human with more than cosmetic differences.
I have met someone who I later learned was evil, but he looked perfectly normal to me at the time, so normal that I barely remember the meeting.
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2012-02-14, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-14, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Spoiler
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2012-02-14, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
3rd ed has tended to move away from "evil monsters deserve only death"- at least in some sources:
Savage Species (late 3.0)
With Malice Toward None
(Chaotic/Accepting)
In this campaign model, the prevailing opinion holds that monsters, no matter how foul and evil they may look, are free sentient beings with all the inalienable rights that humans, elves, and every other humanoid species are heir to. The denizens of this campaign are not foolish- they know that many monsters are evil and nefarious. Just the same, they are loath to reject monsters simply because of their origins. The philosophical leaders of this land realize that no medusa or troll really had a choice in how it came into this world, and indeed as oppressed as its upbringing may have been, it is deserving of more sympathy and consideration, not less.
In this world, evil among monsters is largely perceived to be a psychological condition rather than an absolute or genetic one. Most monsters are thought to become creatures of evil or destruction not because of any infernal or diabolic tie, but because of a fear of rejection, loneliness, or some other understandable psychological condition. Even the foulest tanar'ri may in truth be the victim of its own psychoses, and the enlightened people of this world hold out hope that with openness, respect, and even love, the darkest of souls can be redeemed. And who knows? Perhaps they are right.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-02-14, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Not to mention BoED. It dropped the ball in many other places, but it as at least an acknowledgement by WotC that they needed to go a bit deeper into this whole alignment business than Gygax thought it would be necessary to.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2012-02-14, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
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2012-02-14, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-14, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
3rd edition kind of... zig-zags in terms of its treatment of "monster species". It's a very much "Depending on the author" sort of thing, which is only logical since there were multiple authors working on it. But at the end of the day, some sapient species are still labeled as "Evil". The reason for which this is deeply disturbing have been elaborated on by people more eloquent than I am in this thread. It's really kind of interesting how persistent this idea is.
What's also strange is the double standard - noone minds evil or neutral elves and dwarves or non-neutral halflings, but non-evil orcs ad goblinoids provoke reactions such as the one in this thread.My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
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2012-02-14, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Boston
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
A couple of points:
That is one of the issues I think you are failing to grasp. PCs and NPCs can "Do evil for good ends" and "Do good for evil ends". The Black and White - Start of Darkness asked this question multiple ways. The Mongol Horde question touched upon it but you missed the allegory.
I think that is one of the themes that has been developing throughout this story: Is your assigned alignment the end-all and be-all of your existence?
Some characters think your assigned alignment is all that there is (Miko being the top of the list there, please don't flame me) while others take a more nuanced view (Roy's redirecting Belkar to more productive ends comes to mind).
Is the rules system that you are within so rigid and confining that you have to live within the confines of your assigned alignment? Which is more important - the rules or the story? There are plenty of stories out there of people overcoming their limitations. Can overcoming your assigned alignment count as overcoming an obstacle? Does being evil preclude you from doing good things?
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2012-02-14, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Boston
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2012-02-14, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
The idea of racism does not need to directly correlate to an existing real-world race in order to still be racist. All that is required is that you evaluate a person based on your preconceptions about others of the same biological group rather than on their own merits.
Because all authors are human, it is exceedingly difficult for anyone to imagine a fully realized non-human intelligence. It has been done maybe a dozen times in the history of speculative fiction, and I would venture not at all in the annals of fantasy roleplaying games. (Certainly, goblins, dwarves, and elves don't qualify, being basically green short humans, bearded greedy humans, and pointy-eared magical humans.) Therefore, it's a moot distinction and one not worth making. Statistically speaking, ALL depictions of non-human intelligence—ever—are functionally human with cosmetic differences. Which is as it should be, because only by creating reflections of ourselves will we learn anything. There's precious little insight into the human condition to gain from a completely alien thought process.
And that's it for me, I need to go to sleep.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2012-02-14, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I wholeheartedly appalud at your ideals Giant.
Still I think that's unfair to corner Nerd_Paladin by invoking the usefulness of openmindedness and tolerance in a work that is a parody as well as a spawn of Fantasy Fiction.
Criticizing the idea of an "Always Evil" label over a certain race is one thing. Stating it is a clichee is fair. Stating it promotes racism, though, is unreasonable in my opinion.
That's "D&D will make you a satanist" way of thinking.
Personally (but I speak strictly for myself, in the hope I am not the horrible person I don't want to be) I don't think that happily butchering orcs without a second thought in my old d&d days made me any more prone to racism than playin an adventurer made me inherently fascinated by the idea of being a hobo, a thief or a vigilante when I grew up.
But that's me.
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2012-02-14, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Ooh, ooh, where? The Mote in God's Eye is (justifiably) considered to be exceptional in its fully realized aliens (even though I didn't personally enjoy the story all that much), although I haven't thought too deeply about whether the intelligence of the Moties is itself fully realized. What are the (other?) dozen or so times?