OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

[Hurkyl]

Hurkyl is in complete agreement with Serini

Not really.

In regard to her decision to keep the Order out, I'm of split opinion. She has a very good and valid point about their track record that I can't rebuff, but I don't find it convincing either.

I'm advocating her position since my opinion since, in my opinion, people are greatly undervaluing her point and overestimating their cases against. I'm not sure I would have bothered joining the discussion if it weren't taken to the extreme of actually calling her a moron over it and similar things.

Regarding keeping her secrecy seriously, I do applaud her over that, assuming that is what is what she was actually doing rather than just being anti-social or somesuch.

[Thoughtbot360]

Dunce Waffle, ROFL!

ROFL waffles?

....Okay, the ebay-related story that I knew that phrase (which I wanted to link to) from is apparently impossible to find on the internet anymore but there's something new about Roblox?

I guess my post just has to make no sense forever because I can't make a hyperlink....

[Peelee]

I still feel like I'm missing something. What is giving you the impression that they even know each other?

I have no such impression per se. As I've said, it's just a guess that that's where she got her information. The Oracle is a known source of information that may otherwise be untenable to attain. It stands to reason that Serini may have utilized such a source to discover what happened to the other Gates as they fell, especially since she would know when they did thanks to their tracker. It's a very short hop from "maybe she asked the Oracle for information" to "and also maybe she wasn't a **** to him so he have her helpful answers to boot". Still a guess, but the second part doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

[Skull the Troll]

I have no such impression per se. As I've said, it's just a guess that that's where she got her information. The Oracle is a known source of information that may otherwise be untenable to attain. It stands to reason that Serini may have utilized such a source to discover what happened to the other Gates as they fell, especially since she would know when they did thanks to their tracker. It's a very short hop from "maybe she asked the Oracle for information" to "and also maybe she wasn't a **** to him so he have her helpful answers to boot". Still a guess, but the second part doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

I agree, she could easily have an ongoing relationship with the oracle. What people are missing with Serini is that she is capable of doing EXACTLY what the Order needs right now, finding common ground with the evil races. The Order doesn't know it yet but she is the living embodiment of what Roy and Durkon were just talking about in the last scene, maybe these evil races don't need to be killed on sight, but can be talked to, and reasoned with. I suspect she's more than just someone to defeat, but I doubt she's going to do the work for the order.

[danielxcutter]

I agree, she could easily have an ongoing relationship with the oracle. What people are missing with Serini is that she is capable of doing EXACTLY what the Order needs right now, finding common ground with the evil races. The Order doesn't know it yet but she is the living embodiment of what Roy and Durkon were just talking about in the last scene, maybe these evil races don't need to be killed on sight, but can be talked to, and reasoned with. I suspect she's more than just someone to defeat, but I doubt she's going to do the work for the order.

The problem is that I'm not terribly sure she cares much about the PC races. Or like, cares enough to be considered Good for stuff besides the world surviving in general and her immediate adoptive family.

[Fyraltari]

I agree, she could easily have an ongoing relationship with the oracle. What people are missing with Serini is that she is capable of doing EXACTLY what the Order needs right now, finding common ground with the evil races. The Order doesn't know it yet but she is the living embodiment of what Roy and Durkon were just talking about in the last scene, maybe these evil races don't need to be killed on sight, but can be talked to, and reasoned with. I suspect she's more than just someone to defeat, but I doubt she's going to do the work for the order.

Personally, I suspect she knows something about the World-Within-the-World. Purely because we need someone to eventually shed some light on that plot point and we know that neither Team Evil, nor any of the Order's allies, nor the gods (except Odin but he's senile) know anything about it.

[The MunchKING]

Xykon also treats monsters the same as he treats people - so maybe he could ask some special favours of the oracle too.

And he got one!

The Oracle was out of town, so Xykon didn't have to hear about his crushing and inevitable loss to the plucky protagonists.

[The MunchKING]

Or a being or group of beings with strong enough scrying to punch through the defenses of the throne room, that Serini believes is an accurate source of information but actually has their own agenda may have left out the context.

I mean, it's the most likely that she just used a crystal ball just when O-Chul was debriefing the others and she just saw that part, but I wouldn't write off the IFCC having their fingers in this pie somehow.

The problem is Tsukiko was quite clear that he was still under Cloister at the time. So either she had balls capable of punching though Epic Magic, or she needs some other way to do it.

If she had a Crystal Ball capable of piercing Epic Spells, she could have also pierced the more mundane blockage on the Throne Room.

[Psyren]

I have no such impression per se. As I've said, it's just a guess that that's where she got her information. The Oracle is a known source of information that may otherwise be untenable to attain. It stands to reason that Serini may have utilized such a source to discover what happened to the other Gates as they fell, especially since she would know when they did thanks to their tracker. It's a very short hop from "maybe she asked the Oracle for information" to "and also maybe she wasn't a **** to him so he have her helpful answers to boot". Still a guess, but the second part doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

It's not impossible, but for me, the cutaway plus the specificity of her recounting (down to the katana) suggests she actually saw what happened there herself. Whether she had a front-row seat in the room, was scrying the battle, or saw a recording of some kind aren't clear, but I doubt it was a second-hand retelling, even an Oracular one.

And he got one!

The Oracle was out of town, so Xykon didn't have to hear about his crushing and inevitable loss to the plucky protagonists.

I refuse to believe that was a coincidence; the Oracle is making sure to avoid Xykon at all costs.

Personally, I suspect she knows something about the World-Within-the-World. Purely because we need someone to eventually shed some light on that plot point and we know that neither Team Evil, nor any of the Order's allies, nor the gods (except Odin but he's senile) know anything about it.

The IFCC might. We still have no idea what their plans are, save that they think it will end up toppling the good gods. A massive influx of previously-snarled souls might do that?

The problem is Tsukiko was quite clear that he was still under Cloister at the time. So either she had balls capable of punching though Epic Magic, or she needs some other way to do it.

If she had a Crystal Ball capable of piercing Epic Spells, she could have also pierced the more mundane blockage on the Throne Room.

To be fair, the Cloister didn't go up until after the Gate was destroyed, so if she had a means of scrying the throne room it would have worked in time for her to see O-Chul and Miko taking swings at the sapphire.

[danielxcutter]

I was more going for "she has an information source that scries for her but she doesn't know it's the IFCC" because that's totally something they'd do and it's not like Serini's got a lot of ways to double-check if their information is accurate if they don't tell her what they are.

[KorvinStarmast]

I refuse to believe that was a coincidence; the Oracle is making sure to avoid Xykon at all costs.

That's how I read it as well.

I was more going for "she has an information source that scries for her but she doesn't know it's the IFCC" because that's totally something they'd do and it's not like Serini's got a lot of ways to double-check if their information is accurate if they don't tell her what they are.

Ooh, I like where you are taking this. IFCC shenanigans need to crop up in this volume somewhere, don't they?

[Psyren]

I don't expect any kind of link between the IFCC and Serini. The IFCC have specifically said they can only interfere through their agents (the LG) or when making a deal, neither of which Serini has any reason to pursue.

I do expect them to know something about the Gates (or at least have an idea for them) that no other faction has considered. Plus, I think we need an unequivocal Bigger Bad after Xykon (whose ambitions are quite petty on a cosmic scale) and Redcloak/The Dark One (who are somewhat sympathetic, methods notwithstanding).

[danielxcutter]

It’d make sense for them to use an agent to feed her information that’d play into her biases if you ask me. This is wild guessing of course, but that’s their MO and they’ve got to interfere somehow.

[Psyren]

I fully agree they're going to interfere, but they don't need Serini for that. They can hijack V at the worst possible time, send Sabine up north etc. And if they were feeding her misinformation, we'd see some hint that they have someone in her ear, but Serini seems to be acting alone + her "family."

The one thing we know about their plans is that they wanted Girard's gate destroyed. Whether that was purely to force a climactic confrontation between the other factions at the North Pole, or because they see some clear advantage to all the gates being destroyed and the gods unmaking the world right away (much like Hel did) remains to be seen.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I don't expect any kind of link between the IFCC and Serini. The IFCC have specifically said they can only interfere through their agents (the LG) or when making a deal, neither of which Serini has any reason to pursue.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that we've met every single one of their agents.

Or to entirely rule out Sabine or Qarr making contact before, after, or even during the linear guild involvement. Sabine could pretend to be anybody. Qarr has unlimited teleporting, so he could have popped over every time Zz'd'zz'it was trancing.

[Peelee]

It's not impossible, but for me, the cutaway plus the specificity of her recounting (down to the katana) suggests she actually saw what happened there herself. Whether she had a front-row seat in the room, was scrying the battle, or saw a recording of some kind aren't clear, but I doubt it was a second-hand retelling, even an Oracular one.

I actually largely agree with most of that. The problem is we know that area was scry proof, and I'm not sure of any way to do a recording (at least, not by someone who wasn't there to witness it, and the known parties haven't said a word on the exact details so far as we know). To me, the greatest likelihood was that she was there herself or found out from a reliable source, and the Oracle simply seems easier than whatever would need to happen both mechanically and plot-wise for her to have been there at the time yet not finished off Xykon when a single blow could have done him off for good.

Heck, that very last bit I didn't even think of until I was writing it, but it's a nice cap on the whole thing. It's not impossible, I just think not being there is simpler and more plausible given what we know so far.

ETA: Also, I don't think the IFF knows anything that we do not concerning the rifts. Heck, they got it like fifth-hand!

[Metastachydium]

I actually largely agree with most of that. The problem is we know that area was scry proof, and I'm not sure of any way to do a recording (at least, not by someone who wasn't there to witness it, and the known parties haven't said a word on the exact details so far as we know).

We know that the Outer Planes (or at least their waiting rooms) amplify scrying spells/effects to such a degree that the far-from-epic Eugene can simply breach Xykon's Cloister for Roy. Acquiring a scroll of Lesser Planar Ally and getting a Teevo (or something to that effect) set up on the "clouds" sounds cheap and easy for one such as Serini.
Heck, if Evil adventurers can Plane Shift into Celestia proper, she can probably get into the waiting room and do it herself.

To me, the greatest likelihood was that she was there herself or found out from a reliable source, and the Oracle simply seems easier than whatever would need to happen both mechanically and plot-wise for her to have been there at the time yet not finished off Xykon when a single blow could have done him off for good.

Come now. We all know she wants Team Evil to win.

ETA: Also, I don't think the IFF knows anything that we do not concerning the rifts. Heck, they got it like fifth-hand!

I don't know that. They have very potent options for "scry on anything". I bet they know at least as much as we do, maybe more.

[Peelee]

We know that the Outer Planes (or at least their waiting rooms) amplify scrying spells/effects to such a degree that the far-from-epic Eugene can simply breach Xykon's Cloister for Roy. Acquiring a scroll of Lesser Planar Ally and getting a Teevo (or something to that effect) set up on the "clouds" sounds cheap and easy for one such as Serini.

Assuming she is aware of it. Neither Xykon nor Redcloak are.

[Metastachydium]

nor Redcloak

…
Granted, but there's a little problem with your theory as well. I absolutely love the Oracle; he's one of my favourite characters (I'd even rank him above the sideshave bodyguard at the Godsmoot!), in fact. But he's not a jolly misunderstood fellow pushing back against those that harm him.

[At the end of the scene with the two cute lizardfolk spellcasters who are absolutely awesome and I love them too t]he Oracle says, "Say hello to your boss for me," because it's small talk, and he's being friendly. Given that the Oracle is usually a jackass, this in turn reveals something about his personality: He is friendly and jovial to fellow reptilians, but not to mammals.

Last I checked, halflings (and trolls) were mammals.

[Petrocorus]

I refuse to believe that was a coincidence; the Oracle is making sure to avoid Xykon at all costs.

I don't believe there is much coincidence when the Oracle is concerned.

I don't expect any kind of link between the IFCC and Serini. The IFCC have specifically said they can only interfere through their agents (the LG) or when making a deal, neither of which Serini has any reason to pursue.

We are not sure how many agents they have and what are they. We know they were using the LG, but the LG is gone. They probably have taken steps to get new tools. Sabine is explicitly looking for some.

The one thing we know about their plans is that they wanted Girard's gate destroyed. Whether that was purely to force a climactic confrontation between the other factions at the North Pole, or because they see some clear advantage to all the gates being destroyed and the gods unmaking the world right away (much like Hel did) remains to be seen.

One of the question about them is that outsiders' minds are supposedly wiped after each world. How the IFCC are planning to avoid this? Did they perform to avoid this already once?

It's not impossible, but for me, the cutaway plus the specificity of her recounting (down to the katana) suggests she actually saw what happened there herself. Whether she had a front-row seat in the room, was scrying the battle, or saw a recording of some kind aren't clear, but I doubt it was a second-hand retelling, even an Oracular one.

I actually largely agree with most of that. The problem is we know that area was scry proof, and I'm not sure of any way to do a recording (at least, not by someone who wasn't there to witness it, and the known parties haven't said a word on the exact details so far as we know). To me, the greatest likelihood was that she was there herself or found out from a reliable source, and the Oracle simply seems easier than whatever would need to happen both mechanically and plot-wise for her to have been there at the time yet not finished off Xykon when a single blow could have done him off for good.

Scrying is not the only solution. Serini could have access to superior form of mind-reading. She could have seen the events of the Throne room directly into O-Chul's mind.
There is also the possibility to speak with the deceased souls in some way.
I don't remember if there were core ways to do this efficiently in 3.5, but the Giant is perfectly able to homebrew spells for story's sake.

[Dion]

Do you know who saw what happened in the throne room?

Xykon. Redcloak. Soon.

Serini could have asked any of them.

[Fyraltari]

Do you know who saw what happened in the throne room?

Xykon. Redcloak. Soon.

Serini could have asked any of them.

I am pressing X.

[Skull the Troll]

I fully agree they're going to interfere, but they don't need Serini for that. They can hijack V at the worst possible time, send Sabine up north etc. And if they were feeding her misinformation, we'd see some hint that they have someone in her ear, but Serini seems to be acting alone + her "family."

The one thing we know about their plans is that they wanted Girard's gate destroyed. Whether that was purely to force a climactic confrontation between the other factions at the North Pole, or because they see some clear advantage to all the gates being destroyed and the gods unmaking the world right away (much like Hel did) remains to be seen.

They stated they want never ending conflict, Another few billion worlds at a few thousand years each before another god has a different color quiddity arises sounds like just what they (say) that they want.

Do you know who saw what happened in the throne room?

Xykon. Redcloak. Soon.

Serini could have asked any of them.

Except two of those folks would kill her on sight and the other is dead. Yeah there's magic to bring him back or speak to dead, but I doubt it. A simple crystal ball would have done it despite her rule against the practice. There was no cloister then, and if the third gate is about to fall I'm sure that would get her attention.

[The MunchKING]

I refuse to believe that was a coincidence; the Oracle is making sure to avoid Xykon at all costs.

That was the "special favors" the Oracle gave Xykon, was my point.

To be fair, the Cloister didn't go up until after the Gate was destroyed, so if she had a means of scrying the throne room it would have worked in time for her to see O-Chul and Miko taking swings at the sapphire.

That was what I was talking about about breaking the scrying wards in the Throne Room.

I was more going for "she has an information source that scries for her but she doesn't know it's the IFCC" because that's totally something they'd do and it's not like Serini's got a lot of ways to double-check if their information is accurate if they don't tell her what they are.

They DID show they could scry on Cloistered stuff. So no doubt they could have seen through the ordinary scry shielding.

Do you know who saw what happened in the throne room?

Xykon. Redcloak. Soon.

Serini could have asked any of them.

My guess was Soon's ghost who thought with the destruction of the Gate ended his Oaths to non-communication, and agreed to tell her what was going on.

[Psyren]

They stated they want never ending conflict, Another few billion worlds at a few thousand years each before another god has a different color quiddity arises sounds like just what they (say) that they want.

I'm not so sure this is what they meant. What good is billions of worlds if they, as non-deity outsiders, get wiped and reset every time? I rather think they're after something a bit more final/beneficial to themselves, or at least disruptive to the current status quo. (Do they even get to keep their souls when the world gets reset and the gods move on to the next idea?)

[Metastachydium]

My guess was Soon's ghost who thought with the destruction of the Gate ended his Oaths to non-communication, and agreed to tell her what was going on.

Yeah, sure, he considered it very important to emphasize that the Gate was destroyed with the personal katana of one O-Chul ("bald, bearded tough guy with a scar; don't trust him, he's a destroyer of Gates"). Very likely.

[Yirggzmb]

Scrying is not the only solution. Serini could have access to superior form of mind-reading. She could have seen the events of the Throne room directly into O-Chul's mind.
There is also the possibility to speak with the deceased souls in some way.
I don't remember if there were core ways to do this efficiently in 3.5, but the Giant is perfectly able to homebrew spells for story's sake.

I don't think it's likely at all, but I'm amused by the idea of Serini using a prior cauldron of amnesia potion to question the paladins and wipe their memories of it. Possibly more than once. Then it would look like she had inside info somehow, but no it was just them telling her and forgetting about it.

Again, unlikely. Just a funny idea to me.

[Windscion]

Also: Serini takes too much pride/pleasure is lying to paladins for Soon to be her go-to guy for such info.

[The MunchKING]

Yeah, sure, he considered it very important to emphasize that the Gate was destroyed with the personal katana of one O-Chul ("bald, bearded tough guy with a scar; don't trust him, he's a destroyer of Gates"). Very likely.

Well, but he's one of the only ones who knew anything about Miko's role.

[Peelee]

…
Granted, but there's a little problem with your theory as well. I absolutely love the Oracle; he's one of my favourite characters (I'd even rank him above the sideshave bodyguard at the Godsmoot!), in fact. But he's not a jolly misunderstood fellow pushing back against those that harm him.

Last I checked, halflings (and trolls) were mammals.

That would be a problem if I had ever claimed he would be friendly and jovial to her. My suggestion was that he simply didn't jerk her around like he did the Order. Possibly due to her not treating him like the Order did, for example.