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2021-10-02, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-10-02, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
Ummm, I don't think I'm the one forgetting things here.
Do you remember we covered the "they've done it before" point a page or so back? You came up with the analogy of someone who'd vandalised a car before being somewhere in the vicinity of a car factory with a nice car inside. You then mentioned preventative detention was a thing in your country, but weren't sure exactly when it applied.
I think where we get to is that a person has vandalised a car before and is somewhere near a car factory, and is overheard to say they wont approach the factory because someone might see them, is not a reason to capture them. The guard who knew they were there would not be negligent.
Well, V said it was the right call based on what Roy knew. Thor didn't even ask Durkon about it, so I don't think they have to convince him. And it looks like they've probably defeated Serini, so they don't need to convince her of anything.
In saying that, I think they might well convince Serini - her role in the story going forward may working for the Order, similar to Minrah.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-10-02 at 08:02 PM.
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2021-10-03, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
Ok, then Xykon find the gate, but needs to fight Tarquin and his whole army, who were near at the time he came.
But... Even with de coordinates, I think Xykon would get tricked by the double bluff, and we know he is not patient.
Redcloak: Sir, the cordinates mark this place, the gate should be here.
Xykon: oh, you think? Or maybe you want to create another goblin town here?... No, lets look another place.
R: but Sir...
X: zip it!
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2021-10-03, 06:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
1- Man, again, forget about the car analogy and think about another analogy which is more accurate to the case: If someone have detonated a nuclear bomb before, of course he will get arrested if come near to a nuclear bomb factory.
The "they have done it before" is totally covered yes, and gives the right to Serini.
2- The "right call" thing about destruction of Girards gate, with the information that Roy had at the time, is still debatable. But with the whole information it is totally wrong, and that's why i said that if Roy couod change the past he would do something else... I mean, I doubt very much that something is the "right call" when 3 infernals want it. I think we agree on infernals being totally evil, isn't it?
They don't need to convince Serini? Well, tecnically they dont, but that doesn't make them right, might is not right... And i don't really think the fight is over. Lets see.
I am still seeing a "flashforward" where the order get the gate destroyed, and Serini saying "I knew it...". Then something happens that save the day, with great sacrifice. I can't stop thinking that.Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-10-03 at 06:28 AM.
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2021-10-03, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-10-03, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
The nuclear weapons analogy is better in terms of the scale of the catastrophe, yes. Someone else raised it a couple of pages back
The starting point, is that a nuclear weapons facility would have a clearly fenced off and guarded perimeter. If a person had previously detonated a nuclear bomb, and were not wanted for that detonation, then they would not be arrested for being outside the perimeter. They would be if they had penetrated it. Indeed, they'd be arrested for being inside even if they had not previously detonated a bomb (that would be mostly irrelevant to their arrest).
Serini hasn't set up the canyon that way. She hasn't walled it. For all intents you have not breached the perimeter until you go inside the doors to the caves. So no, just because someone has done something before does not give you the right to attack them.
The key here is whether they've done something now (like breaking in), not what they've done in the past.
2- The "right call" thing about destruction of Girards gate, with the information that Roy had at the time, is still debatable. But with the whole information it is totally wrong, and that's why i said that if Roy couod change the past he would do something else... I mean, I doubt very much that something is the "right call" when 3 infernals want it. I think we agree on infernals being totally evil, isn't it?
I agree, I think Roy probably would change it. I think what he did was reasonable on the basis of what he knew. But with what we know (and what he now knows) it was probably wrong.
They don't need to convince Serini? Well, tecnically they dont, but that doesn't make them right, might is not right... And i don't really think the fight is over. Lets see.
I am still seeing a "flashforward" where the order get the gate destroyed, and Serini saying "I knew it...". Then something happens that save the day, with great sacrifice. I can't stop thinking that.
I doubt your prediction of a flashforward will happen, but I guess we will see.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-10-03 at 07:26 AM.
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2021-10-03, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
You say that if Xykon, of all beings, would have a problem with the army, Legion or no Legion. The OotS managed it, and they were half dead and drained at that point. Heck, I think the army literally couldn't hurt him outside the big dinosaurs; DR 15/magic and bludgeoning isn't just for show.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-10-03, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
It's not about how patient or impatient he is, it's that he's not a fool.
If anything, I'd say that Xykon would look at that pillar, chuckle for a few moments, and go "who wants to bet that it's absolutely right here?"
He only left so quickly because of two factors: He knew first-hand that Girard's Gate was destroyed (the explosion and rift being hard to miss), and MITD's interference. Without that definite proof that Girard's Gate was destroyed, he wouldn't leave the coordinates, if only because if one set of coordinates were false, so might the other, the ones that he'd be using for Kraagor's Gate. Already there, after all, might as well spend a while making sure... and blasting the whole place for good measure too.
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2021-10-04, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, I was implying they are in fenced and guarded military facilities.
Serini has established by covenant with Soon that the gate at the north pole is her domain and it is located in a extremely remote location. This is not something the paladins did by accident or ignorance.
And (just to milk the analogy) staying technically outside the base and observing and reporting on the base is also enough to get one arrested.
The north pole is not the factory in this analogy. A whole village of bugbears lives there.
Do you accept that the paladins are at the north pole because of the gate (tabling exactly what they intend to do about it)? And that this fact is obvious to all?
I don't agree that the stick figure comic medium restricts the ability to convey the information. All that had to happen was to have O-Chul say "we have to get inside before Xykon does" instead of "let's not try any doors because Xykon might see us" before Serini captured them.
And its unfair to suggest this is a just one speech balloon fix. If we require evidence of justified true belief (in general) we're going to need to double or triple the word count of the comic.
You could add that level of detail in if you want, but it doesn't change the outcomes out of each scenario.
Because if it's Serini's, that's the "detail" her entire decision hinges around!The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2021-10-04, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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2021-10-04, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
The army not, but the Vector Legion can, they are higher level than the Order, and of course they would joined forces if some evil lich is threating their 3 countries, not just Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, but the whole team, with Malack still alive (he wouldn't die if the piramid was there) and Vamp Durkon, i mean, ir that team can do nothing vs Xykon, then the Order can do less than nothing.
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2021-10-04, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-10-04 at 12:06 PM.
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2021-10-04, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
The Gates don't blow up immediately once they get damaged. Even at Soon's Gate, Xykon had enough time to physically fly out of not merely the throne room, but also the entire blast radius with relative ease. I'm pretty sure they'd find those six seconds needed to port out of the pyramid just as easily.
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2021-10-04, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
Xykon flee of the throne room when he saw Miko's intentions, then the gate did krakakoom. But in this case he would blast that pillar not knowing it had a gate inside, I dont think he would reacted that fast this time, cause he wouldn't know what was happening inmidietly.
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2021-10-04, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
First of all, vamp Durkon doesn't count because either he's not part of the Legion(because he's not), or the events of BRItF happened and he's basically out of spells. Don't exactly see what he'd do.
Also, we don't know if the Legion is still higher level than the Order(I estimate about CR 16~17ish for each Legion member), there was only three of them when Xykon 'ported in, Xykon's was going for Girard's Gate and not their empires directly, and you're still ignoring the fact that I specifically said the army; anything the Legion would be able to do with him would exclusively be, well by the Legion because foot soldiers literally can't even scratch him.
And that assumes he's stupid enough to blow up random stuff when there might be a Gate nearby. He's not that stupid, and he knows first-hand how devastating a Gatesplosion is.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-10-04, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
IIRC, Soon's Sapphire wasn't the gate itself, but something that was reinforcing the gate, but I don't recall the reference. We can't use the Dungeon of Dorukan as an example since the explosion was started by the self-destruct mechanism.
We do see, however, from the explosion of Girard's Gate (#0898) that from the point where the gate started destabilizing the Order had enough time to flee partway through the dungeon to take shelter within the memorial to Girard.Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-04 at 12:30 PM.
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2021-10-04, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
All Gates have a crystalline frame as a physical component. That's what the sapphire is.
We do see, however, from the explosion of Girard's Gate (#0898) that from the point where the gate started destabilizing the Order had enough time to flee partway through the dungeon to the memorial to Girard.
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2021-10-04, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
Girard's had a big crystal outer part, Soon's was a small sapphire, I don't have SoD and I don't recall a crystal component for Dorukan's but I might just be forgetting.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-10-04, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-10-04, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
Eh, SoD is mostly black 'n' white anyway. But! Luckily enough, we have the Crayons of Time to tell us that Lirian's Gate was embedded in some yellow crystal.
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2021-10-04, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
I am ignoring the army because the army is mostly irrelevant, only as meatshields maybe. But the Legion, the whole (i don't think it took to much time to join the other two, they have at least two mages with teleports, and who know what other resources and magical items). There was four of them when xykon came. Vamp Durkon is still usefull, he is a vamp, he heals with negative energy which is one of the source of dmg of both Xykon and Redcloak, so is a pretty good meat shield at the very least. But still, the rest are really really powerful and have a ton of magic items. And, if Roy didn't destroy the gate, they would be there too, they could wait for the best moment to intervene when the two evil teams were weakened enough.
I see a pretty good ambush there, at least not worse that the one that they were preparing before Serini's attack, and with one more gate standing in case that go wrong and they need to destroy it, a thing they cant do now.
Or even better, just ally with the Legion to kill Xykon. The Legion can't do anything with the gate anyway. And Order + Legion should kill Xykon far easier than Order alone.Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-10-04 at 06:43 PM.
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2021-10-04, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread
Wow, double sticky threads!