30+ New Dragons (more true dragons than the draconomicon)

[Zaydos]

Take Debihuman's idea for Glasya.

Bel something a kin to blood magic maybe?

Dis; I'll think about this one and dig through some lore to find anything we're missing or should look at.

Blood Magic? What book is it in?

[Zaydos]

Moon Dragon
Dragon (Air)
Environment: the moon (any woods); any land
Organization: wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, and young adult: solitary or clutch (2–5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, or great wyrm: solitary, pair, or family (2-5).
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 4; very young 5; young 7; juvenile 10; young adult 13; adult 15; mature adult 18; old 20; very old 21; ancient 23; wyrm 24; great wyrm 26
Treasure: Triple Standard
Alignment: Always CG

Moon dragons dwell on the moon itself. In great lunar forests, these dragons serve as wardens and guardians to the other creatures they find there. Said to be the creations of Frejr and Tallimyr, these dragons serve as gentle guardians and protectors of their forests; defending them against other evil creatures. Rarely do they interact with the world below, although each moon dragon visits the world below at least once in its life, usually around reaching adulthood. While there they tend to go mostly unnoticed, taking animal forms familiar with them to avoid encountering humanoids, and later taking human shapes themselves. Many moon dragons will also return to the world below one last time, when they are nearing their twilight they will take flight. Some of these aged dragons do not make it and instead crash to the world below as falling stars.

Moon dragons are naturally kind dragons, with a strong urge to protect others. They prefer to do so without directly intervening when possible, with a few words of sage advice whispered into the right ear, bits of knowledge, and healing. When absolutely necessary, or when the forest they call home, though, they will take their native shape and proceed to show that they are by no means weak in combat. Moon dragons have been known to fight red dragons, and win.

A moon dragon has silvery scales, and great golden-orange eyes. From their heads two curved, bull-like horns, stretch out, reminiscent of the crescent moon. With age golden highlights appear on the edge of their scales, and the silver in the center becomes closer and closer to white.

Age	Size	Hit Dice	Str	Dex	Con	Int	Wis	Cha	BAB/Grp	Atk	Fort	Ref	Will	Breath Weapon:	Breath Weapon DC	Frightful Presence
Wyrmling	M	6d12+6 (45 hp)	15	10	13	8	13	12	6/8	8	6	5	6	1d10+3	14	-
Very Young	L	9d12+27 (85 hp)	17	10	15	10	13	12	9/16	11	8	6	7	2d10+6	16	-
Young	L	12d12 + 36 (114 hp)	19	10	17	10	15	14	12/20	15	11	8	10	3d10+9	19	-
Juvenile	L	15d12+60 (177 hp)	21	10	19	12	17	16	15/24	19	13	9	12	4d10+12	21	-
Young Adult	H	18d12+90 (207 hp)	25	10	21	14	19	16	18/33	23	16	11	15	5d10+15	24	22
Adult	H	21d12+126 (262 hp)	27	10	23	16	19	18	21/37	27	18	12	16	6d10+18	26	24
Mature Adult	H	24d12+144 (300 hp)	29	10	23	16	21	18	24/41	31	20	14	19	7d10+21	28	26
Old	G	27d12+199 (364 hp)	31	10	25	18	21	20	27/49	33	22	15	20	8d10+24	30	28
Very Old	G	30d12+210 (405 hp)	33	10	25	20	23	20	30/53	37	24	17	23	9d10+27	32	30
Ancient	G	33d12+264 (4785 hp)	35	10	27	22	23	22	33/57	41	26	18	24	10d10+30	34	32
Wyrm	G	36d12+324 (558 hp)	37	10	29	22	25	24	36/61	45	29	20	27	11d10+33	37	35
Great Wyrm	C	39d12+390 (643 hp)	41	10	31	24	27	26	39/70	46	31	21	29	12d10+36	39	37

Age	Speed	Init	AC	SR	Special Abilities
Wyrmling	40-ft, fly 200-ft (average)	+0	16 (+6 natural)	-	Immunity to Cold, Horn, Silvered Weapons, Alternate Form (animal)	-
Very Young	40-ft, fly 200-ft (average)	+0	18 (-1 size, +9 natural)	-	Scent, Shifting Power (+2)	-
Young	40-ft, fly 200-ft (average)	+0	21 (-1 size, +12 natural)	-	Breathless, Alternate Form (humanoid)	-
Juvenile	40-ft, fly 200-ft (average)	+0	24 (-1 size, +15 natural)	-	-	1st
Young Adult	40-ft, fly 250-ft (poor)	+0	26 (-2 size, +18 natural)	16	DR 5/magic or silver, Alternate Form (magical beast)	3rd
Adult	40-ft, fly 250-ft (poor)	+0	29 (-2 size, +21 natural)	18	Shifting Power (+4), Tireless	5th
Mature Adult	40-ft, fly 250-ft (poor)	+0	32 (-2 size, +24 natural)	21	DR 10/magic or silver, Alternate Form (Large)	7th
Old	40-ft, fly 250-ft (poor)	+0	33 (-4 size, +27 natural)	23	Recover Breath	9th
Very Old	40-ft, fly 250-ft (poor)	+0	36 (-4 size, +30 natural)	25	DR 10/magic and silver, Alternate Form (Monstrous Humanoid, Giant)	11th
Ancient	40-ft, fly 300-ft (clumsy)	+0	39 (-4 size, +33 natural)	28	Shifting Power (+6)	13th
Wyrm	40-ft, fly 300-ft (clumsy)	+0	42 (-4 size, +36 natural)	30	DR 15/magic or silver and DR 10/magic and silver, Alternate Form (Huge)	15th
Great Wyrm	40-ft, fly 300-ft (clumsy)	+0	41 (-8 size, +39 natural)	32	Alternate Form (Dragon), Superior Alternate Form	17th

Special Abilities

Breath Weapon (Su): A moon dragon has two types of breath weapons. The first is a cone of freezing gas dealing the listed amount of cold damage (Reflex halves). The second is a cone of slow gas requiring a Will save to avoid being slowed for 1d6 + age category rounds.

Horn: In addition to the natural weapons common to (almost) all true dragons, moon dragons have a pair of bull-like horns that rise from their head. These horns allow them to use a gore attack dealing the same damage as a claw as a secondary natural weapon. On a charge they may use it as a primary natural weapon instead of their bite (making their bite secondary if they have pounce) and it deals +1.5 times strength bonus instead of the normal strength bonus and extra damage as per the table below.

Horn Charge Damage:
{table]Size| Extra Damage
Small| 1d4
Medium| 1d6
Large| 1d8
Huge| 2d6
Gargantuan| 2d8
Colossal| 4d6[/table]

Alternate Form (Su): A moon dragon, may 3 + Age category/day, take the form of a medium or smaller animal. They may remain in this form until they choose to return to their natural form or to take another form. A young or older moon dragon may also take the form of a humanoid of medium size or smaller. A young adult or older moon dragon adds magical beasts to this list, an old or older dragon adds giants and monstrous humanoids, and a great wyrm adds the shapes of other dragons; in the case of any creature other than an animal or humanoid, though, the new form may not be that of a creature with more HD than the moon dragon. At adult the maximum size of these forms is increased to large, and at wyrm it is increased again to huge.

Silvered Weapons (Ex): A moon dragon’s natural weapons count as silver for the purposes of overcoming DR.

Shifting Strength (Su): A very young or older moon dragon gains a +2 untype bonus to a physical ability score of choice. They may change which ability score this bonus applies to as a swift action, at will. At adult this bonus increases to +4, and at ancient this increases to +6.

Sustenance (Ex): A young or older moon dragon no longer needs to breathe and they may go extended periods without food or drink (up to 4 months) although this leaves them with a need to eat and drink extremely large amounts afterwards.

Spells: A juvenile or older moon dragon may cast spells as a druid of the listed level. Like a druid they must prepare their spells daily.

Tireless (Ex): An adult or older moon dragon no longer needs to sleep; they may also never suffer (subdual) damage from forced marching or hustling. They gain the Endurance feat as a bonus feat, and an additional +4 racial bonus to all rolls its bonus applies to. Unlike other Ex racial abilities a moon dragon retains this ability when using alternate form.

Recover Breath (Ex): An old or older moon dragon recovers its breath weapon 2 turns faster than it normally would (minimum 1 round) as if it had taken the Recover Breath feat twice.

Superior Alternate Form (Su): A great wyrm moon dragon retains its breath weapon, frightful presence, breathless quality, recover breath ability, and cold immunity in any form they assume via Alternate Form. In addition they gain a +4 to any physical ability score while using Alternate Form; this bonus may not increase that ability score to above the dragon’s score in its natural form, and once chosen the bonus cannot be changed until they enter a different form.

[Zaydos]

Moon Dragons up, not my finest work but they're here. Not sure if they were supposed to be moon dwellers or moon themed; if the latter I can make that soon enough.

Almost wish I'd made them epic though.

Edit: Oh yeah, I think that makes dragon #30

Edit2: Anybody know a place online where I can read some Chinese myths about dragons? If I'm going to build me some lung dragons I need to familiarize myself with the source materials.

Edit3: The Chinese word for Bamboo would also be appreciated. If I'm going to butcher the myth I can at least try and get the language right.

[hamishspence]

Edit: Also does anybody know of any non-Dragon Magazine types of true dragons published after the Draconomicon? I can't think of any myself. And once I make 4 more dragons I'll have made more than there are in the Dragoconomicon's list of all true dragons.

Lots.

Dragon Compendium (these ones are not, interestingly, in Dragon Magazine)
Purple Dragon
Yellow Dragon
Orange Dragon

Sandstorm
Sand Dragon

Magic of Incarnum
Incarnum Dragon

Dragons of Faerun
Mist Dragon
Mercury Dragon
Steel Dragon (reprint of Dragon Magazine version)

On the WoTC site are some 3.0 dragons that could be updated to 3.5. The Ectoplasm Dragon, and the Obsidian Dragon.

In 0th ed D&D, the Sun, Moon, and and Star Dragons were also called the Opal, Pearl, and Diamond Dragons, and were the rulers of Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful dragonkind. Maybe they could be done based on this idea?

[The Tygre]

I could start listing off third party book dragons, if you like. Should be fun.

[Debihuman]

The rules for lung dragons were published in Oriental Adventures by James Wyatt. That book contains the following dragons:

• Yu Lung (Carp Dragon),
• Chiang Lung (River Dragon),
• Li Lung (Earth Dragon),
• Lung Wang (Sea Dragon),
• Pan Lung (Coiled Dragon),
• Shen Lung (Spirit Dragon)
• T'ien Lung (Celestial Dragon), and
• Tun Mi Lung (Typhoon Dragon)

[hamishspence]

Isn't one of those (Yu Lung?) the infant version of all the others, which don't have the youngest age categories?

[Zaydos]

Lots.

Dragon Compendium (these ones are not, interestingly, in Dragon Magazine)
Purple Dragon
Yellow Dragon
Orange Dragon

Sandstorm
Sand Dragon

Magic of Incarnum
Incarnum Dragon

Dragons of Faerun
Mist Dragon
Mercury Dragon
Steel Dragon (reprint of Dragon Magazine version)

On the WoTC site are some 3.0 dragons that could be updated to 3.5. The Ectoplasm Dragon, and the Obsidian Dragon.

In 0th ed D&D, the Sun, Moon, and and Star Dragons were also called the Opal, Pearl, and Diamond Dragons, and were the rulers of Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful dragonkind. Maybe they could be done based on this idea?

I hadn't realized there were actual species of dragons in Dragons of Faerun I've been wanting to check Steel Dragon stats and hadn't had my dragon magazine with me.
Also which book/box had Opal, Pearl, and Diamond dragons?

The rules for lung dragons were published in Oriental Adventures by James Wyatt. That book contains the following dragons:

• Yu Lung (Carp Dragon),
• Chiang Lung (River Dragon),
• Li Lung (Earth Dragon),
• Lung Wang (Sea Dragon),
• Pan Lung (Coiled Dragon),
• Shen Lung (Spirit Dragon)
• T'ien Lung (Celestial Dragon), and
• Tun Mi Lung (Typhoon Dragon)

Been reading up on it; at-will Su invisibility, continuous detect thoughts, Alternate Form comes standard, and at-will Plane Shift; no spell-casting, though. The beginner difficulty is actually making the dragons fit fluff-wise with the celestial bureaucracy and the lung; or at least with the Chinese myths they were based on (only Chinese dragon story I know is the one about Oulong Tea, and The Monkey Goes West). If I can't find something soon I'll make:

• Bamboo Dragon: Charged with watching over forests.
• Fire Dragon: Charged with the power of cleansing fire.
• Metal Dragon: umm?
• Deep Dragon: really this just walks all over Li Lung's position.
• A water dragon (will be hard because you already have so many).

Thanks though.

Isn't one of those (Yu Lung?) the infant version of all the others, which don't have the youngest age categories?

Yep, which makes things... different.

[hamishspence]

I hadn't realized there were actual species of dragons in Dragons of Faerun I've been wanting to check Steel Dragon stats and hadn't had my dragon magazine with me.
Also which book/box had Opal, Pearl, and Diamond dragons?

Master Set (DM's book).

[Zaydos]

Master Set (DM's book).

Ah, my older brother had that but last I knew it was lost.

[Ziegander]

Not to sound ungrateful, this thread is a wealth of awesome fluff and crunch; however, I am a bit frustrated with your Good Dragons. You seem to invariably make them weaker than any of your other designs, and oftentimes markedly stunted in one or more traditionally draconic faculty when compared to published Dragons. This makes me sad.

[The-Mage-King]

Not to sound ungrateful, this thread is a wealth of awesome fluff and crunch; however, I am a bit frustrated with your Good Dragons. You seem to invariably make them weaker than any of your other designs, and oftentimes markedly stunted in one or more traditionally draconic faculty when compared to published Dragons. This makes me sad.

Good is dumb.

[Ziegander]

Good is dumb.

lol, yes, but I'd like to see some subversion of this trope in particular, but I don't mind if I have to work on something myself. I've never designed a dragon before...

[The-Mage-King]

lol, yes, but I'd like to see some subversion of this trope in particular, but I don't mind if I have to work on something myself. I've never designed a dragon before...

Just remember- a Great Wurm Gold dragon can kick a Great Wurm Red dragon's {Synonym of Donkey} 4 out of 5 times.

[Zaydos]

I will admit they are all weaker than the Farspawn Dragon, Fungal Dragon, and Maleficence Dragon. I actually think Fungal Dragons were a bit too strong for their role and since then have cut the normal Con stat of my dragons to be closer to that of White to Bronze dragons avoiding Red and Gold level Constitution.

I could argue that many of them make it to the middle group of power, cite examples, and go into comparisons, but I won't because

1. I'm biased to think they are balanced against the others.
2. I have a basic philosophy that no Good dragon should be better than Gold dragons while due to Howling Dragon, Pyroclasm Dragon, and Purple Dragon (among others) I do not hold the same for evil dragons which has regrettably allowed power creep.
3. I've always thought that Evil dragons should be better in direct combat than Good dragons and I know that shows up in my designs even when I try and avoid it.

Hopefully Moon Dragons were pretty descent (9th level casting, combat stats better than Reds or Golds, all the normal dragon stuff, and better DR); still can't compare to the 3 biggest/strongest dragons I made, but that was intentional because there was too much power creep in those 3.

Any suggestions/requests for a Good dragon? I'm currently working on a bamboo dragon but having trouble thinking up abilities and I won't to stay away from 9 Hells dragons for a while before I dive into that fluff again and start rebuilding all the outsiders.

[Ziegander]

Hopefully Moon Dragons were pretty decent (9th level casting, combat stats better than Reds or Golds, all the normal dragon stuff, and better DR); still can't compare to the 3 biggest/strongest dragons I made, but that was intentional because there was too much power creep in those 3.

Yeah, the Moon Dragon was pretty good. I got all excited when I started reading about the Dawn Dragon, but when I found out that it was generally stupid and avoided conflict I was a little let down. Not that it's not still a really awesome creature with great fluff (I actually love it's personality and the way it views evil creatures), just that I was hoping for something else.

Any suggestions/requests for a Good dragon? I'm currently working on a bamboo dragon but having trouble thinking up abilities and I want to stay away from 9 Hells dragons for a while before I dive into that fluff again and start rebuilding all the outsiders.

I dunno, alternatives to Gold and Silver Dragon, I guess. Ones that aren't just weaker versions of the same thing. Good Dragons that don't shy away from fighting, and have frighteningly powerful abilities of their own. Actually, yeah, that would be awesome, I think. A dragon that's just as terrifying as any horror-themed dragon, but that's Good aligned, and scary in a non-death, non-gore related way.

Actually, I have a request: Templates for Dragon tables?

[Zaydos]

Yeah, the Moon Dragon was pretty good. I got all excited when I started reading about the Dawn Dragon, but when I found out that it was generally stupid and avoided conflict I was a little let down. Not that it's not still a really awesome creature with great fluff (I actually love it's personality and the way it views evil creatures), just that I was hoping for something else.

Dawn dragons fell victim to my philosophy that good magic can't be used to pervert a creature's essence to force it to be good; so instead I had them exorcise the evil from the dragon which naturally took some of their power (compare Maleficence Dragon where the goodness is tainted and perverted turning it purely towards death and destruction... and they have an additional power source added).

I dunno, alternatives to Gold and Silver Dragon, I guess. Ones that aren't just weaker versions of the same thing. Good Dragons that don't shy away from fighting, and have frighteningly powerful abilities of their own. Actually, yeah, that would be awesome, I think. A dragon that's just as terrifying as any horror-themed dragon, but that's Good aligned, and scary in a non-death, non-gore related way.

I've never found Gold and Silver dragons to be scary; generally the only time I find good scary is when it is of the Knight Templar variety at which point I have trouble calling it good. I'll try, the best I can think of is some type of holy avenger in draconic form that comes out to fight great evils. Actually I might get started on Mithril Dragons with just this in mind.

Edit: I have a kind of template on Excel, but nothing is blank. I'll try and have one up soon. General table

{table]Age| Size| Hit Dice| Str| Dex| Con| Int| Wis| Cha| BAB/Grp| Atk| Fort| Ref| Will| Breath Weapon:| Breath Weapon DC| Frightful Presence
Wyrmling| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Very Young| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Young| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Juvenile| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Young Adult| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Adult| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Mature Adult| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Old | | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Very Old| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Ancient| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Wyrm| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Great Wyrm | | | | | | | | |||||| | |[/table]

{table]Age |Speed |Init |AC |SR |Special Abilities |CL
Wyrmling | | | | | |
Very Young | | | | | |
Young | | | | | |
Juvenile | | | | | |
Young Adult | | | | | |
Adult | | | | | |
Mature Adult | | | | | |
Old | | | | | |
Very Old | | | | | |
Ancient | | | | | |
Wyrm | | | | | |
Great Wyrm | | | | ||[/table]

[The-Mage-King]

Maybe an Electrum dragon?

[Zaydos]

Maybe an Electrum dragon?

Electrum Dragon

Second good aligned dragon I did. High Int, high speed, and wizard casting. Roughly equal to Bronze in stats except for better casting, SLAs, and speed and 1 less HD and I think worse Str and Con.

[Ziegander]

I've never found Gold and Silver dragons to be scary

Well, yeah, but that's cause they're all nice and personable. Just because you're Good doesn't mean you need to have great social skills.

generally the only time I find good scary is when it is of the Knight Templar variety at which point I have trouble calling it good.

Yeah. It's a problem. I'm not sure how I would do it either. The only thing I can see working is in the vein of the anti-hero. Something rather anti-social, grim, and intimidating with powerful effects that are scary because of their destructive power. Sort of Batman meets Dragon?

Edit: I have a kind of template on Excel, but nothing is blank. I'll try and have one up soon. General table

{table]Age| Size| Hit Dice| Str| Dex| Con| Int| Wis| Cha| BAB/Grp| Atk| Fort| Ref| Will| Breath Weapon:| Breath Weapon DC| Frightful Presence
Wyrmling| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Very Young| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Young| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Juvenile| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Young Adult| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Adult| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Mature Adult| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Old | | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Very Old| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Ancient| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Wyrm| | | | | | | | |||||| | |
Great Wyrm | | | | | | | | |||||| | |[/table]

{table]Age |Speed |Init |AC |SR |Special Abilities |Spells
Wyrmling | | | | | |
Very Young | | | | | |
Young | | | | | |
Juvenile | | | | | |
Young Adult | | | | | |
Adult | | | | | |
Mature Adult | | | | | |
Old | | | | | |
Very Old | | | | | |
Ancient | | | | | |
Wyrm | | | | | |
Great Wyrm | | | | ||[/table]

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

[The-Mage-King]

Electrum Dragon

Second good aligned dragon I did. High Int, high speed, and wizard casting. Roughly equal to Bronze in stats except for better casting, SLAs, and speed and 1 less HD and I think worse Str and Con.

Whoops. Missed that...


How about Osmium?


EDIT:

Well, yeah, but that's cause they're all nice and personable. Just because you're Good doesn't mean you need to have great social skills.

Yep. Good is not nice.

[Debihuman]

Generally, it's "mithral" not "mithril." Mithril came from Tolkien but this is one of those game terminology things that makes people crazy as can be seen from this rant: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfile...rminology.html

Surely out of respect for Mr. Reynolds, you could {pretty pretty please} change it to mithral.

Also, there are some errors in the charts for breath weapon (DC). I don't think you need two columns one for the breath weapon and a separate one for the DC. One column should suffice. I'll check where you duplicated this but I think it was a page or so back.

Debby

[Zaydos]

Generally, it's "mithral" not "mithril." Mithril came from Tolkien but this is one of those game terminology things that makes people crazy as can be seen from this rant: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfile...rminology.html

Surely out of respect for Mr. Reynolds, you could {pretty pretty please} change it to mithral.

Also, there are some errors in the charts for breath weapon (DC). I don't think you need two columns one for the breath weapon and a separate one for the DC. One column should suffice. I'll check where you duplicated this but I think it was a page or so back.

Debby

It has an "a" in D&D I should pay more attention.

As for the Breath Weapon DC that's because I've been using MS Excel to format the dragons and it shaves a good amount of time off of formatting the dragons so I added the extra column. Although on that note I could just not put a "|" between the cells and leave off the Breath Weapon DC header and get the same effect. I just realized this.

Edit: Also anyone know a single word that mean "righteous wrath".

[Debihuman]

Indignation?

Debby

[Zaydos]

Indignation?

Debby

Well gets the definition heads on. Doesn't quite have the intimidating factor I was hoping for, though. If I'm going to make a good aligned warrior dragon it's going to be a beast of righteous wrath indignation (it is a better word for what I'm trying for).

I'll keep thinking about it, but I might end up using indignation (the only other thing I can think of is Avenging).

[Noxsis]

i would love a really powerful epic dragon that use the rules in bovd (also could you make a LA for it please)

[Zaydos]

i would love a really powerful epic dragon that use the rules in bovd (also could you make a LA for it please please)

Which rules in particular from BoVD? And LA for an epic dragon

I think that's beyond my skill (I've not played Epic and am unfamiliar with how it plays out).

[Silverscale]

If you havn't already found information on the Chinese Zodiac Wikipedia has an Excellent page on the subject. Just search Chinese Zodiac and there is a section on the 5 elements.

[Noxsis]

make the most powerful evil dragon(stronger the 30 as wyrmling and surpasing 100 by great wyrm) you can and when i says rules i mean as much as you can. you do have bovd dont you?. please and thank you. oh and the level adjustment is sorta them same just take into considieration if its hd combined with the la make it fair to play( a infernal is is a level 40 at that play level it abilitys arent worth a LA)

[Zaydos]

make the most powerful evil dragon(stronger the 30 as wyrmling and surpasing 100 by great wyrm) you can and when i says rules i mean as much as you can. you do have bovd

Have it but not the most familiar with it; and stronger than 30 CR at wyrmling is going to be hard for me to estimate since the system is strained to its limit at that point (optimization levels create a larger difference the larger the level) and CR 100 is far beyond my scope. If you note the other epic dragon I made I just copied and pasted Prismatic Dragon's CR as a rough estimate. Also with how CR and LA works a CR 30 wyrmling dragon is going to have an ECL in the 50s or higher just from racial hit dice.