Hilarious Fluff-Mechanic Interactions

[Vrock_Summoner]

This thread is *not* about contradictions. Don't post something like "fighters are supposed to be greatest warriors but they suck"; for one thing, done to death so not even amusing any more, but more importantly, it isn't really concrete fluff and it doesn't really even interact with the mechanics.

This is for things that just come out funny when fluff and mechanics interact in ways that may have even been intended but are just wrong in practice.

I'm finding this exceedingly difficult to put in to words, so I'll give an example to illustrate the kinds of interactions I'm looking for.

So, the fluff. Dragons are extremely territorial. They tend to kill adventurers just for approaching, and more importantly to the interaction, they get into life-or-death battles with other dragons (even those of the same alignment) as a response to said other dragons so much as flying in their airspace. This is a fairly well-established fact...

... Except that dragons are utterly inept at fighting one another. Two great beasts embodying the very manifestation of power and creativity... But the fight between them might never get anywhere.

I mean, a less offensive issue at least is that they're extremely unlikely to be effected by each other's magic; the idea that great, powerful dragons can handle draconic spellcasting better than most mortals is okay to me. Then you get to everything else, though.

Dragons of equal age category (especially Young Adults, but the condition continues) get pretty hilariously nerfed by each others' DR to the point where battles consisting of full attacks will be dealing an average of, oh, 6 points per round (again using the Young Adult example) meaning that fight would be tedious, uneventful, and last at least 2 and a half minutes of the equivalent of tiny scratches on each other; that level of damage would be terribly visually unimpressive. And dragons wouldn't normally fight like this, they'd be doing fly-bys.

This isn't even mitigated by breath weapon, because if they live near enough to fight each other they probably have the same type of breath weapon and are thus immune to each other.

So yeah, I find that exceptionally hilarious how dull, drawn-out, and unimpressive a supposedly common battle between creatures treated by fantasy as practical demigods would really be. Their own strengths are basically completely nullified by each other until some sort of spell to make natural attacks magical is used. And these guys don't tend to have the Druid-y options for doing that.

What kind of funny interaction fails have you guys spotted between fluff and the mechanics like this?

[Diarmuid]

Dragons of equal age category (especially Young Adults, but the condition continues) get pretty hilariously nerfed by each others' DR to the point where battles consisting of full attacks will be dealing an average of, oh, 6 points per round (again using the Young Adult example) meaning that fight would be tedious, uneventful, and last at least 2 and a half minutes of the equivalent of tiny scratches on each other; that level of damage would be terribly visually unimpressive. And dragons wouldn't normally fight like this, they'd be doing fly-bys.

You do understand that a creature with DR is able to bypass the kind of DR it has with it's natural weapons by default, right?

So those two young adult dragons with DR 5/Magic, are both capable of completely bypassing each other's DR.

[Rubik]

Does monks not being proficient in their own bodies count?

How about the fact that most oozes melt themselves to death because they're not immune to the acid they're coated in?

The fact that you can use a torch's light to see anything in the torch's area, but can't see the torch from outside of that area?

Drown-healing?

The fact that multiclass penalties encourage rampant multiclassing rather than discouraging it?

Werebears turn into Lawful Good bruins that, during the full moon, help sell Cub Scout cookies and help Little Olde Ladies across the street?

Zombies and skeletons are Evil-aligned, despite being mindless automatons who are basically organic machines driven by entirely Neutral-aligned energy?

Undead are healed on the Positive Energy Plane and have no chance of exploding like living creatures native to the plane do?

[Deophaun]

The fact that you can use a torch's light to see anything in the torch's area, but can't see the torch from outside of that area?

That's a house rule, and a very strange one at that.

You can see light sources with a DC 20 Spot check from 10x its light radius in dim light, and 20x its radius in darkness. You automatically see light sources at half that distance. You can see into illuminated areas normally.

[Vrock_Summoner]

You do understand that a creature with DR is able to bypass the kind of DR it has with it's natural weapons by default, right?

So those two young adult dragons with DR 5/Magic, are both capable of completely bypassing each other's DR.

.... News to me, actually...

[Diarmuid]

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Similar rule for alignment based DR, not exactly the same.

Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

[Xelbiuj]

Werebears turn into Lawful Good bruins that, during the full moon, help sell Cub Scout cookies and help Little Olde Ladies across the street?

I like to think they go around stomping out forest fires.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I like to think they go around stomping out forest fires.

Nah, that's not his job. Only you can prevent forest fire.

[bekeleven]

That's a house rule, and a very strange one at that.

You can see light sources with a DC 20 Spot check from 10x its light radius in dim light, and 20x its radius in darkness. You automatically see light sources at half that distance. You can see into illuminated areas normally.

He's talking about the PHB illumination rules that mistakenly set your spot check modifier based on the illumination where the player is standing, as opposed to the location of the thing said player is attempting to see. Hence, standing by the fire lets you see the bandits sneaking up on you, while said bandits are blind until they near he fire themselves.

[Gemini476]

The Paragnostic Assembly has a near-monopoly on Truenamers. +10 Truespeak is too good to pass up.

Despite Dragons being feared for their spellcasting prowess, they really aren't that great at magic. I'm pretty sure that the best ones are 3/4 spellcasting or something, which isn't really all that impressive.

Also, the existence of 20th level commoners (as per the demographics tables) is completely baffling. How on earth do they get so much XP?
Epic worlds have 36th level Commoners, which is even more baffling!

[Thanatosia]

Despite Dragons being feared for their spellcasting prowess, they really aren't that great at magic. I'm pretty sure that the best ones are 3/4 spellcasting or something, which isn't really all that impressive.

Their caster level is just something they get from aging..... ie, they aren't actually practicing magic like a Sorceror does. Being able to cast as a lv14 sorceror with 0xp earned as a Sorceror is pretty impressive to me....

[Deophaun]

He's talking about the PHB illumination rules that mistakenly set your spot check modifier based on the illumination where the player is standing, as opposed to the location of the thing said player is attempting to see. Hence, standing by the fire lets you see the bandits sneaking up on you, while said bandits are blind until they near he fire themselves.

Not really. The PHB wording is bad, but it also refers to being able to see "lit areas." Thus, you have two possible RAW interpretations from the PHB; one which is silly and one which works. Which one is adopted says more about the group than the system.

Of course, once you include other sources, the possibility for a silly RAW interpretation goes away.

[TheMonocleRogue]

Vampires. They get a huge list of buffs but the negatives make them so very hard to play for PCs.

The pros:

• DR 10/ magic and silver
• Dominate Person at will, 30ft range gaze attack
• Polymorph at will. Can turn into a bat, a wolf, and their dire counterparts
• Can create spawn by draining blood w/ pin
• Fast healing 5
• Gaseous Form at will, unlimited duration
• Spider climb at will, unlimited duration
• Two negative levels on each natural attack
• 5 bonus feats (Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Dodge, Lightning Reflexes)
• A large stat increase (+6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha)

In order to keep one from attacking you, all you need is one of these:

• Any holy symbol
• Garlic
• A mirror
• Natural sunlight
• Turn undead (vamps get +4 turn resist)
• Any spell that controls or destroys undead

Vampires also can only enter public places freely. If they try to enter a private residence, they need permission from the owner in order to do so.

Also vamps can't swim, so good luck running one in an aquatic campaign.

[Brookshw]

Just to go back to dragons for a moment,

Half dragons......

Yeah, not buying the antisocial thing.....

[Urpriest]

Also vamps can't swim, so good luck running one in an aquatic campaign.

I thought it was just running water that was a problem. Depending on which part of the Ocean you're in, meaningful currents might be about as rare as rivers land-side.

[Qwertystop]

The Paragnostic Assembly has a near-monopoly on Truenamers. +10 Truespeak is too good to pass up.

Despite Dragons being feared for their spellcasting prowess, they really aren't that great at magic. I'm pretty sure that the best ones are 3/4 spellcasting or something, which isn't really all that impressive.

Not entirely sure that's a problem - everything about the Paragnostic Assembly pretty much yells "Truenamer". Except not, because you don't yell in libraries and if you're dumb enough to start yelling randomly in truespeech you deserve what's coming to you.

In the Draconic casting case, sure, they're not as good at it as practiced full-casters, but that's just from age, without putting any effort into actually learning magic. If they start practicing (taking Sorcerer levels), it stacks. Also, that's on top of all the other things dragons get.

[Karnith]

Dragons, celestials, and fiends are able to breed with virtually any living creature. Thanks to Eberron, there are living constructs (namely, Warforged). Hence, there can be Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, and Half-Fiendish Warforged.

Just... please don't ask how it happens.

[Chronos]

Similarly to the OP's example, there's the whole Blood War. Demons and devils have been fighting each other since the dawn of time. And it's no wonder that the war has been raging so long, since neither side can do anything to each other. Both usually have DR that's overcome by Good weapons, but their own weapons count as Evil, so they can't overcome each others' DR. When they have alignment-affecting SLAs, they're usually anti-good ones like Blasphemy or Unholy Blight, not Law or Chaos-affecting ones like Dictum or Chaos Hammer (though a few of the high-end ones have both). And this is even assuming they can ever get to each other: No devil or demon has any ability that would let them travel to other planes, so the forces of Hell can never attack the Abyss, nor vice-versa. They could only ever meet if some third party is stupid enough to summon both.

One that surprisingly actually works out well, though, relates to Truenamers. The mechanically-best race for a Truenamer is an Illumian, due to their ability to get +2 to all Int-based skills (such as True Speech). Illumians, as it happens, are the race of people composed of living words. Huh, yeah, I guess they would be the best truenamers, then.

Quoth Karnith:

Dragons, celestials, and fiends are able to breed with virtually any living creature. Thanks to Eberron, there are living constructs (namely, Warforged). Hence, there can be Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, and Half-Fiendish Warforged.

Just... please don't ask how it happens.

It happens the same way as for any other creature: The two mate, and then one of them gets pregnant. I'm sure a warforged would be quite surprised at getting pregnant, but it can happen anyway, because magic. Dragons don't tell the laws of reality to sit down and shut up; rather, the laws meekly ask the dragon permission before standing up in the first place.

[Sith_Happens]

Not entirely sure that's a problem - everything about the Paragnostic Assembly pretty much yells "Truenamer". Except not, because you don't yell in libraries and if you're dumb enough to start yelling randomly in truespeech you deserve what's coming to you.

I'm sure a warforged would be quite surprised at getting pregnant, but it can happen anyway, because magic. Dragons don't tell the laws of reality to sit down and shut up; rather, the laws meekly ask the dragon permission before standing up in the first place.

[Urge to add spoiler box to my sig so I can sig more things intensifies]

[Adverb]

For me, it's always been the D&D economy. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html

Werebears turn into Lawful Good bruins that, during the full moon, help sell Cub Scout cookies and help Little Olde Ladies across the street?

This is hilarious.

Vampires. They get a huge list of buffs but the negatives make them so very hard to play for PCs.

A friend of mine played a Crusader who got vamp'd once. It was terrible, because she lost her con mod and her ability to remain standing at -1 hp. Being a vampire made her much wussier.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

A friend of mine played a Crusader who got vamp'd once. It was terrible, because she lost her con mod and her ability to remain standing at -1 hp. Being a vampire made her much wussier.

While the HP loss and no longer able to remain standing a -1 is bad, the DR 10 is insane, and the stat boosts to STR make you a god at combat.

Until a spear hits you and kills you because it's your job to tank everything.

[kardar233]

Similarly to the OP's example, there's the whole Blood War. Demons and devils have been fighting each other since the dawn of time. And it's no wonder that the war has been raging so long, since neither side can do anything to each other. Both usually have DR that's overcome by Good weapons, but their own weapons count as Evil, so they can't overcome each others' DR. When they have alignment-affecting SLAs, they're usually anti-good ones like Blasphemy or Unholy Blight, not Law or Chaos-affecting ones like Dictum or Chaos Hammer (though a few of the high-end ones have both). And this is even assuming they can ever get to each other: No devil or demon has any ability that would let them travel to other planes, so the forces of Hell can never attack the Abyss, nor vice-versa. They could only ever meet if some third party is stupid enough to summon both.

Furthermore, some devils (Pit Fiend, Horned Devil, all Abishai (FCII), Pleasure Devils (same source)) have Regeneration that can only be overcome by Good or Good+Silver, which means that without some serious shenanigans (Graymantle won't work because Devils are immune to Poison) demons can't actually kill a fair number of the devils they encounter.

[pwykersotz]

And this is even assuming they can ever get to each other: No devil or demon has any ability that would let them travel to other planes, so the forces of Hell can never attack the Abyss, nor vice-versa. They could only ever meet if some third party is stupid enough to summon both.

Natural portals are a thing, and there are a ton of ways for even a commoner to navigate the planes. Plane Shift just trivializes it. I'm also pretty certain (though I don't know exactly how) that after eons of combat, they've gotten pretty good at killing each other, much like the power difference in a character versus its optimized form.

[Rubik]

Don't the natural weapons of creatures with DR automatically overcome that DR? Since both demons and devils have DR/Good, they'd overcome each other's DR with their natural weapons.

Does the same apply to manufactured weapons?

[pwykersotz]

Don't the natural weapons of creatures with DR automatically overcome that DR? Since both demons and devils have DR/Good, they'd overcome each other's DR with their natural weapons.

Does the same apply to manufactured weapons?

That's what I always thought, but the SRD seems to say it's just for creatures vulnerable to magic weapons and I can't find a more specific ruling.

[kardar233]

Don't the natural weapons of creatures with DR automatically overcome that DR? Since both demons and devils have DR/Good, they'd overcome each other's DR with their natural weapons.

Does the same apply to manufactured weapons?

A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

This statement is somewhat ambiguous, and I'm not sure whether to interpret it as: demons (having DR/Good) can overcome DR/Good, or that demons being [Chaotic] and [Evil] can overcome DR/Chaotic and DR/Evil.

And since this only counts for DR, they still have no way of dealing with the Devils' Regeneration.

[Cikomyr]

I know it's straight out of the classic fantasy lore, but damn is it stupid for Dwarves to favor axes and hammers when they usually fight in tight tunnels, where piercing weapons would make more sense.

[Rubik]

I know it's straight out of the classic fantasy lore, but damn is it stupid for Dwarves to favor axes and hammers when they usually fight in tight tunnels, where piercing weapons would make more sense.

Well, technically piercing weapons (like picks) can't be used to break through stone and such, given the rules on sundering, so it looks like slashing and bludgeoning weapons are all they'd use anyway.

[Alent]

I know it's straight out of the classic fantasy lore, but damn is it stupid for Dwarves to favor axes and hammers when they usually fight in tight tunnels, where piercing weapons would make more sense.

I've always thought that was a fluke of being metalworkers, who need to fell trees from the side of the mountain for use in crafting and hammers for blacksmithing, and just liking the feel of both as tools.

Although certainly you'd think mining picks would be in there as favored weapons, at the least.

[Cikomyr]

Well, technically piercing weapons (like picks) can't be used to break through stone and such, given the rules on sundering, so it looks like slashing and bludgeoning weapons are all they'd use anyway.

I am more ready to believe Norren's explanation than yours. Actualy, picks ARE used to break through stones.



I have a hard time seeing how an axe would help mining.

And still, if we are talking about WARRING dwarves, hammer, picks and axes are all very impractical weapons to use in tunnels. Especially if you use choke points. They should use long and shortspears in phalanx formation.