Legend 1.0: Finally Here!

[afroakuma]

Hello playgrounders! Looks like Legend's full release version is finally out (though almost not on time). Just downloaded my copy. Anyone else got theirs yet? How does it measure up to that long-ago beta?

[Nohwl]

i really like the celestial, construct, demon, and undead tracks in the book. they look so much better than their old versions.

[Artillery]

Its been a long time in coming. Congratulations to everyone involved.

Its good to finally close those tabs of in progress 1.0 content.

[Flickerdart]

It's not even a year late!

My favourite part is the new art. Fire tornadoes and rune traps hidden in the snow, ahoy!

[Larkas]

Woot! I've been waiting a long time for this! I'll download it right now!

[Rhynn]

A link in the first post woulda saved me almost 5 seconds of googling! ("Legend 1.0" actually brings this thread up as the second result.) For anyone else wondering, get the game here.

[Flickerdart]

Straight from one of Legend's artists comes this gif. If you're not in the IRC, this is what you're missing out.

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[Doorhandle]

It's not even a year late!

My favourite part is the new art. Fire tornadoes and rune traps hidden in the snow, ahoy!

Agreed!
I was a little disappointed though. (In part because it's actually the 18TH here in Australia.) Where is the trick-fighter track?

[Flickerdart]

Show Fighter is a'comin'. It's currently slated for editing, and now that the editors are done with 1.0, things should get rolling.

[Coidzor]

Straight from one of Legend's artists comes this gif. If you're not in the IRC, this is what you're missing out.

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Never have I so regretted never being able to get into IRC.

[Gildedragon]

looks interesting. Will def's check out

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'll download it now, and make sure to have a look at it over the next couple of days. I didn't look through the Beta too much, but I still have it, so I can compare. Should be a good read, and hopefully a good game, too.

[Coidzor]

Maybe now I'll be able to get my group to actually look at it with a mind to trying it out sometime, come to think of it.

[Zejety]

Looks like there hasn't been THAT much new art, to be honest? Is that being saved for the Monster Manual?

The only pieces I've seemed on a glance where the Direwolf, Fire Tornado and icy rune traps (proud to say all of these were drawn by a friend of mine!).

[Eldan]

Still don't really like it, and still can't really say why, beyond a few vague ideas. I'd rather see more unique abilities rather than just tracks, especially for monsters, that's one thing. And I still think the social system is too technical and complicated for what it needs to do, but that can just be thrown out for skill ckecks, so that's not much of a problem either. And I feel too many tracks go too far into the supernatural martial arts instead of either fully mundane or fully magical, two character archetypes I like. But then, you can build both, so that's not really the problem either...

There seems to be very little choice in what class features you get, as it seems to me there's barely anything in the entire book I'd actually want for a character. I've tried building interesting characters before and I always end up with the same problem. I look through the tracks, discard 3/4 as too combat focused then finally settle for one or two tracks that have an interesting ability or two somewhere burried in there and then I just get "other tracks" to fill stuff out. I'd really like a few more trickster-ish tracks that aren't so focused on killing things or helping allies kill things.

I'm confused, really. I don't like it and I can't say why.

I will say that the design looks a bit sterile to me. I liked 3.5's faux-parchment and pencil-sketch look, though that's just a small detail.

It also seems to still be lacking in fluff. Or not even relaly fluff, world-connectedness? Is that word?. Not just class descriptions and things like that, but fluffed rules. I remember that when I opened my first 3.0 books, the very first chapter (ability scores) had tables explaining what a certain value means. Strength X is as strong as an elephant. Intelligence Y is the world's greatest genius. This book talks about Combat modifiers, but I can't visualize what any of it means. I can only tell what a good or a bad number is by comparing different creatures and see which are above average. I do welcome that classes and races finally got fluff. It now feels as I'm actually reading a (slightly sterile) RPG book instead of an online summary of one. I would still welcome if single class abilities had a sentence or two of fluff beyond just an evocative name.

I'm also not a fan of automatically advancing everything. Like, speed bonus for everyone is just confusing to me. Why is a physically frail ninth level wizard a better runner than the level 1 rogue orphan?



Edit: Yeah, I think I found my problem. It's simply too focused on combat. And not even interesting combat. A lot more so than even third edition D&D (which I still like a lot). I read over it and after three pages my head just goes "Hit enemies, skip, hit enemies in different way, skip, hit, skip, skip, skip, skip, Ooh, arcane secrets! Wait, they hit enemies, skip, skip, skip" and that goes on until halfway into the feat chapter. 90% of which also concern hitting enemies. I mean, the combat chapter starts with " While
Legenddoes not have as strong an emphasis on killing things to take their stuff as some other RPGs, there are other reasons you may want to do so. " and when I read that, I had to laugh. While the skill and social rules are decent, they are a handful of pages out of hundreds and hundreds of pages covered in tons and tons and tons of ways of killing things. there seem to be no class abilities at all that help much with non-combat. Even that magic classes have perhaps one or two interesting spells, usually at level 1 or two, followed by endless amounts of boring energy blasts.

So, a very good system for people who like playing combat-focused characters. Which I am not. Feels to me as if the first about 180 pages of hte book could just be skipped.

[Timeless Error]

Hooray for the release! It's been great to watch the game grow over the course of the past year and a half.

[Mystify]

I've been following the development of 1.0 for a while, and its release makes me happy. The changes from the beta are great, with a much higher sense of balance employed. Many of the "meh" things are now awesome, and the overpowered options have been replaced with things that, somehow, are more balanced, and more awesome at the same time. For instance, discipline of the serpent went from "I'll attack a ton of times", to "I'll perform a dozen combat maneuvers each round and tie you into knots".
The beta was great, and it showed the potential of the system, especially the flexibility of the track system, but 1.0 is what makes it live up to that potential. The new content, like mounts, is also very fun and useful.

[balistafreak]

So, a very good system for people who like playing combat-focused characters. Which I am not. Feels to me as if the first about 180 pages of hte book could just be skipped.

Given that one of Legend's design goals was to make every character able to contribute relatively equally in a combat situation, this is a pretty natural conclusion.

In order to make sure that characters don't accidentally end up nerfing themselves to uselessness in combat, they can't have very many class abilities, items, skills, etc. that don't contribute directly to combat, because these choices undermine this goal.

If you disagree with this design goal, that every player at the table should be combat-viable to the same degree, then of course Legend is going to feel weird to you. And given that you say you don't like playing combat-focused characters, I'd hazard that you're used to, or perhaps even prefer to play characters who aren't as useful and powerful in combat than the guy next to you - so your reaction is pretty natural.

[Raineh Daze]

Looks good, but I wish I could get rid of the classes and just play around with the tracks. Stop tying options in little bundles. ;-;

[Eldan]

Given that one of Legend's design goals was to make every character able to contribute relatively equally in a combat situation, this is a pretty natural conclusion.

In order to make sure that characters don't accidentally end up nerfing themselves to uselessness in combat, they can't have very many class abilities, items, skills, etc. that don't contribute directly to combat, because these choices undermine this goal.

If you disagree with this design goal, that every player at the table should be combat-viable to the same degree, then of course Legend is going to feel weird to you. And given that you say you don't like playing combat-focused characters, I'd hazard that you're used to, or perhaps even prefer to play characters who aren't as useful and powerful in combat than the guy next to you - so your reaction is pretty natural.

I don't have anything against players being able to contribute in combat. But I'd also like them to contribute out of combat. And from reading Legend, it just seems to me that all the options you have are combat options.

What I mean is this. Do I really need two dozen combat options on every character? Especially if half of them just seem to be Hit [Enemy] to [deal damage and cause minor effect]? Couldn't a character just have a list of combat abilities and also a list of fun noncombat abilities?

The game already has the track system, so this couldn't be that hard to implement, could it.. Between saving throws, combat bonus, skill points and combat tracks, it just feels to me as if you could easily add another category of "noncombat tracks". Every character gets two combat tracks and two noncombat tracks.

At least the spellcasting classes could have been given the option. Just a chance to take something like "Entice Gift" or "Silent Image" or "Stone Tell" instead of Energy Attack #4305.

Even in combat, there don't seem to be many interesting options. Mainly damage, buffing and healing. Very few debuffs and very few creative ones at that. I don't see very many interesting enchantments or illusions to distract enemies with. Few abilities to reshape the battlefield for tactical advantage. ALmost nothing to turn the enemy's resources against him.

Another thing I noticed. This game seems to focus too much on the big and flashy to my taste. Now, I like big and flashy. From time to time. But in this game, everything seems to be big and flashy and the end effect just seems to be one nonstop flash. Pulling out all the stops doesn't seem to be standing out anymore from the background. What was that quote from the Incredibles? When everyone is super, no one is? That seems to me to be a lot of this game.

And there aren't any of those small, flavourful abilities that all my favourite classes and races have, like, I don't know, just a +2 situational skill bonus.

[FrustratedRocka]

Well it's about time!
Congrats to the dev team for putting together such a fantastic game. Looking forward to running the new version.

[afroakuma]

Looks good, but I wish I could get rid of the classes and just play around with the tracks. Stop tying options in little bundles. ;-;

You could always just, you know, ignore the classes. It's not a computer game, the only conformity enforcement is the person at the table who can be bribed with nachos.

[Timeless Error]

Looks good, but I wish I could get rid of the classes and just play around with the tracks. Stop tying options in little bundles. ;-;

Here's a post from the Legend forums about creating custom classes.

[Flickerdart]

I don't have anything against players being able to contribute in combat. But I'd also like them to contribute out of combat. And from reading Legend, it just seems to me that all the options you have are combat options.

Skills are very useful to this end.

At least the spellcasting classes could have been given the option. Just a chance to take something like "Entice Gift" or "Silent Image" or "Stone Tell" instead of Energy Attack #4305.

Silent Image is in the game, as are many other strictly non-combat spells (Comprehend Languages, for instance).

And there aren't any of those small, flavourful abilities that all my favourite classes and races have, like, I don't know, just a +2 situational skill bonus.

I don't know about you, but "dwarves get a bonus to Engineering" feels more relevant and useful to me than "dwarves get a bonus to engineering when dealing with bearded stone items underground".

[Eldan]

It's not about relevant. It's about flavourful. Sure, a general engineering bonus is nice to have in the game. An engineering bonus only on stone items that represent female dwarven beards that only applies when the dwarf is making a handstand underground with a blindfold on throws up an endless amount of worldbuilding questions and can biuld an entire adventure in itself. And it will be all the cooler when a player actually finds an application for that ingame.

And I didn't say there were no noncombat spells. I did see Silent Image on there. But, well, they are vastly outnumbered by samey combat spells.

Look at the shaman:

1: 6.5 combat vs. 2.5 non-combat. (Not sure what to count world-mind as. Let's call it more non-combat.
2: 7.5 combat vs. 0.5 non-combat. (Resist Elements is sort of half-half.)
3: 7 combat, 0 non-combat.
4: 9 combat, 1 non-combat, and Wind Walk is useful in combat too.
5: 7/0
6: 7/0
7: 5/1.

Of course, some spells can creatively used to fall in the other category. But still. This is just, well, a bit poor. The Tactician is a bit better, but not much.

[Flickerdart]

And I didn't say there were no noncombat spells. I did see Silent Image on there.

No, what you said was

At least the spellcasting classes could have been given the option. Just a chance to take something like "Entice Gift" or "Silent Image" or "Stone Tell" instead of Energy Attack #4305.

The "chance to take something like Silent Image" exists and is called Silent Image. If you had known there was a Silent Image, that is not a statement you would have made.

Wind Walk is useful in combat too

Wind Walk takes a minute to cast, and while in it you can't take any actions except movement.

I strongly suggest you go over the spell list with more attention before criticizing it.

[Mystify]

The Tactician is a bit better, but not much.

I've actually done a guide to using spellcasting without taking actions in combat. You can have almost every tactician spell you learn be of out of combat use - you end up being extremely utilitarian.

[Raineh Daze]

You could always just, you know, ignore the classes. It's not a computer game, the only conformity enforcement is the person at the table who can be bribed with nachos.

Mm, it's just working out how to assign the stats stuff. Don't really liked the link forum post--it says no to the extra tracks but lets you freely pick KOM and KDM. Eh.

[Flickerdart]

If you don't like classes, you can use the GM creature building rules (unlimited track substitutions, pick any type, pick any KAMs) as a shortcut way of getting rid of them.

Classes are essentially there as a framing tool to make sure that new players don't get lost in the track system, have thematic synergy between their abilities, and have those abilities cover a wide spectrum (offensive track, defensive track, other). At the point where you feel classes are restrictive, you're probably advanced enough as a player to ditch them.

[Scowling Dragon]

Im with Eldan here. Everything feels so.....Sterile. Its VERY difficult to describe why. But hes right that I just can't feel exited over any of the combat options.

I guess the thing thats annoying is that everything is mainly based around basic plusses and does not get into the roots of the character.

Like as the closest example is no ability damage. When I take Int Damage I know that im getting dumber. When I take Charisma damage, Im loosing my soul. I can RP off of that and taking that damage is pretty Scary. When a Shadow stealth drains me I don't just go "Darn -2 to hit", I collapse on the floor under the weight of my own armor!

Saying "You get a -2 penalty to attack rolls" is not the same (In both RP and mechanically). It feels very gamey.

And all in all the system goes out of its way that "YOUR PLAYING A GAME! DON'T GET IMMERSED IN THE GAME!".

It makes everything feel choppy, and when it feels choppy I see the seems, and when I see the seems I loose my immersion.

It begins to feel more like theatre:

"Aaaaaand; scene over! You no longer suffer energy drain".