Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[Wraith]

Welcome to what happens when you use CAD to design models.

If all the GW design team is doing with CAD is to make a few dozen standardised poses and accessories, mixing them together and plonking bits and pieces flat against the mannequin, something has gone really, really wrong.

I'm not saying I could do better, that would be supreme and unbelievable arrogance.... But with 20 minutes in Hero Forge any one of us could use their flash-based "CAD lite" website to do something more interesting than "man with gun, pointing".

[Blackhawk748]

If all the GW design team is doing with CAD is to make a few dozen standardised poses and accessories, mixing them together and plonking bits and pieces flat against the mannequin, something has gone really, really wrong.

I'm not saying I could do better, that would be supreme and unbelievable arrogance.... But with 20 minutes in Hero Forge any one of us could use their flash-based "CAD lite" website to do something more interesting than "man with gun, pointing".

I have in fact done this. I turned and Orc into a 3.5 Bugbear on there with a beard and a mask to hide his upper face, and I have an Orc with a lever gun pointed out and a Kukri in hand. They also have all sorts of various gear correct to being Post Apoc Scavengers.

They also look unique.

Shrike? Shrike doesn't look great. Shrike needs his helmet back and needs to get rid of the stupid tacked on stuff.

Spoiler: Can we just go back to this?

Show

[Squark]

• New Space Marine Codex came out. Very few people commenting on it. Why is that? Did anything even actually change? Or was it all unnecessary changes that didn't actually solve any of the problems that Space Marines in 8th Ed. currently experience?
• Agressors got a new wound! Do they rate vs. Assault Centurions and Centurion Devastators even though Guilliman no longer gives flat re-rolls to wound to S4 models?

...We now return you back to the Darkness.

So, speaking of the new releases for Astrates... Just some first pass thoughts from a Space Wolves player

-Phobos Captain and Lieutenant: Captain dropped 20 points compared to his Shadowspear codex. They both still seem to pay a tax for access to the Phobos Warlord table... Is that even in the new C:SM? It certainly isn't in the pdfs. Reiver Lieutenant seems particularly overpriced with truly horrible wargear.
-Phobos Librarian: Non-codex versions gain access to their chapter's discipline in addition to their own (Codex-abiding Phobos Librarians get ripped off I guess?). GW forgot to include the Obscuration discipline. Also odd is the lack of a point cost for the Psychic hood when Camo Cloaks and Grav Chutes have their price listed. Anyway, seems like the only good Vanguard HQ. Coincidentally, Not Coincidentally, the Vanguard HQ closest in price to his regular primaris counterpart.
-Infiltrators: Gained an alternative to the helix adept... But won't use it without cheaper Phobos Lieutenants and Captains. Still, they're in high demand now, so no change means they're still good.
-Suppressors: 5 points cheaper per model. This would seem to make them more competitive with other heavy weapons teams.
-Eliminators: S5 Bolt Sniper rifles seem like good character hunters. Las Fusils... I dunno. S9 would have been nice. No idea what to think of the Carbine. How often will these guys get charged?
-Incursor: Wholely new unit. Cheaper Concealed Positions Primaris marines seem good.
-Invictor Warsuit: ... why is this a thing. It holds to the Primaris Vehicle tradition of sticking as many disparate guns onto a thing as possible. I'm just going to ignore this thing and hope it goes away
-Repulsor Executioner: Too... Many... Guns...
-Impulsor: Cawl redesigns the Razorback. I prefer the old-fashioned version, but it has a manageable number of guns, and the top-mount has some nice options. I'm curious, but the inability to transport Gravis units mean it can't carry the only Close Combat unit the Primaris have.

[Avaris]

Well I am a non-qualified business owner and I can tell you this model is bananas. And 'the cycle we previously had' also includes 'lets put all indexes out at once' for 8th, so no it isnt better than that. This model wont even pad numbers properly, because the necron / tyranid / other minor faction releases will have way weaker numbers than those for Imperial / Chaos factions, even if likely produced in the same volume. So if you want that part of the campaign you're saddled with rules you wont use, and where does it all lead? Oh yeah, VK and russian forums, thats where. You cant have a healthy game living off whales, otherwise Fantasy would still be a thing.

This isnt End Times. This is Storm of Magic, and any old players can tell you well that went over and how many tournaments used rules from it and what it did to the already faltering WHFB. Its a terrible idea, and I hope TOs worldwide see into the BS and keep it the same as legends: cute, but not tournament legal.

The indexes were a one off though, at the point of release of a new edition: I’m not counting them as part of any release model. The model I’m comparing to is, as said, the old system whereby an individual (non Space Marine) army could go literal years without a release. Under this new model, of rules contained in campaign supplements, there is a fairly constant stream of releases for everyone, regardless of army. This means everyone gets access to new stuff, which given power creep is a thing means they can hopefully keep up better than if they had to keep switching to a full army of the latest hotness. I personally feel this is preferable to having to hope you haven’t picked the ‘wrong’ army that isn’t updated for years.

Now, we don’t know price point or release schedule yet: a high price point would create problems of pay to win, and a slow release schedule would create the problem you describe with Cardfight! Vanguard. I’m doubtful GW will get either of these right, but hopeful it won’t be terrible either. Likely outcome is somewhere in the middle, especially given Vigilus as an example.

But again, this isn’t a model I would advocate for. It’s the obvious progression of 8th edition though: indexes as ‘get you by’, then codexes, and now expansion through other routes without needing to release either a new edition or completely new codexes.

My ideal approach would have rules freely available online released alongside the models as they come out, with each faction receiving a steady stream of releases. The Psychic Awakening approach seems to have the steady stream (everyone will get something, though not yet clear on timescale) but tying it to the campaign books is a mistake. Selling the rules through campaign supplements makes a barrier to entry and discourages players who don’t feel able to keep up. I would probably still have campaign supplements to theme releases by, but the books should be a luxury extra, not a requirement.

[The Patterner]

-Phobos Captain and Lieutenant: Captain dropped 20 points compared to his Shadowspear codex. They both still seem to pay a tax for access to the Phobos Warlord table... Is that even in the new C:SM? It certainly isn't in the pdfs. Reiver Lieutenant seems particularly overpriced with.

So altough marksman honours was more fluffy than game breaking, I'm still pissed they weakened it to only being +1 dmg.

-Eliminators: S5 Bolt Sniper rifles seem like good character hunters. Las Fusils... I dunno. S9 would have been nice.

A lot of good things added, wish they had kept them at dmg 2 instead of D3. I prefer predictability over random chance.

[Cheesegear]

So, speaking of the new releases for Astrates... Just some first pass thoughts from a Space Wolves player...

Okay, the only thing you should be looking at, is Shock Assault, in which case you've gained a straight buff. No questions.

Unfortunately, for Space Marine players, we're looking at the rule, and shrugging our shoulders. With few exceptions, Space Marines are a gunline army. WTF are they gonna do with Shock Assault? Sure, it's a buff. But it doesn't solve anything. I remember having this conversation with Requizen when the Necrons' Codex came out. Of course its a buff over the Index. How could it not be (lookin' at you, T'au)? But none of the buffs mean actually mean anything, so who cares?

inb4; "At least GW is doing something!"
...Sure, and 51% on an exam is still a pass.

Phobos Captain and Lieutenant

The Phobos Captain is extremely meta-relevant - for the same reason Infiltrators are. His protective bubble of 'No Tzaangors* allowed.' is a massive boon to anybody playing with a gunline (i.e; Most of Space Marine players) and should also help protect your death bubble of Long Fangs...If you're into that sort of thing. The Phobos Captain is better for the death bubble, since as a smaller model, you can fit more of your own models around him, giving everyone protection.

Whilst Infiltrators have a bigger footprint and are used for board control.

*...Or Meganobz, Paladins, Blightlords, Death Company, etc.

The Lieutenant, however, is garbage. I expect the Raven Guard Supplement to fix them somewhat - somehow. But I'm imagining all other Chapters can eat poop.

the Phobos Warlord table... Is that even in the new C:SM? It certainly isn't in the pdfs.

It's on the same page as the other Warlord Traits.
My guess is that non-Codex Chapters don't get access to the Vanguard Traits, 'cause **** 'em, that's why.

Phobos Librarian: Non-codex versions gain access to their chapter's discipline in addition to their own (Codex-abiding Phobos Librarians get ripped off I guess?).

Correction. If you don't use Supplements, GW hates you.

Also odd is the lack of a point cost for the Psychic hood when Camo Cloaks and Grav Chutes have their price listed.

Librarians have never paid for 'Hoods. It's a non-optional extra that is only found on that unit, thus, its points cost is included as part of the model.

Infiltrators: Gained an alternative to the helix adept... But won't use it without cheaper Phobos Lieutenants and Captains. Still, they're in high demand now, so no change means they're still good.

As I said, board control.

Suppressors: 5 points cheaper per model. This would seem to make them more competitive with other heavy weapons teams.

I'm not up to the math-hammer on the Fast Attack units yet. But Inceptors are still better, more often.

-Invictor Warsuit: ... why is this a thing. It holds to the Primaris Vehicle tradition of sticking as many disparate guns onto a thing as possible. I'm just going to ignore this thing and hope it goes away

Icky Vickies are actually really good...If you have three of them and your opponent is bad. I know that's not saying much. But the fact that they have as many wounds as they do, and can be set up 9" away from your opponent, means your opponent has to deal with them if they're going first. If you go first, then your opponent is taking 3 Dreadfists to the face and hopefully you've got a good target for that.

Anecdotally, Vickies in my meta are limited to one per customer and they'll still be sold out for weeks. Since I don't make a habit out of showing up to my local store at 11 in the morning on a Wednesday, I'll never be in time for the weekly delivery so I'll probably end up buying my Vickies at -20% from an online retailer that offers Afterpay.

[LansXero]

But again, this isn’t a model I would advocate for. It’s the obvious progression of 8th edition though: indexes as ‘get you by’, then codexes, and now expansion through other routes without needing to release either a new edition or completely new codexes.

So, lets see, we've had this already and it was called Vigilus. How did that go?
- People complained because new stuff for factions was split across two books. So lets split it even further!
- People complained because of book bloat. So lets make more books!
- People complained about power level being all over the place, with some stuff becoming a staple (like Dread Waagh or Devastation Battery) and other just being casual fodder. So lets make it so every faction has to wait months for their update, so when its underwhelming it hurts even harder!
- People are probably using very little of the campaign stuff, and more of the specialist stuff for regular 40k play. So lets put out EVEN MORE campaign stuff, and make people buy it for the slim fraction of pages with rules relevant to their faction of choice.
- People hated it when their faction didnt get any new stuff, at all. So first spoilered image also didnt include anyone (has been corrected now) thus angering the player base even further.

So, where do you get 'obvious progression' from? Is it obvious that GW would take the bad parts of their first attempt and go even harder at them? Because:

Under this new model, of rules contained in campaign supplements, there is a fairly constant stream of releases for everyone, regardless of army.

How do you get 'for everyone' from:

Each Psychic Awakening expansion focusses on a different war zone, providing a new perspective to this galaxy-spanning event. The series will see plot threads that have enticed fans for decades resolved, champions new and old rise to the fore, and staggering revelations made.

Meanwhile, each book will have powerful and thematic rules updates for at least two Factions, giving you more flexibility than before.

So your argument is that the obvious and natural development for 8th edition is... to become 7th edition? I realize we dont have a time frame for this, but this is nothing more than Warzone: Damocles and the like, except its all thematically tied together. Expansion books for a couple of armys with new things, while those whose turn isnt up yet get stuck without. Which for some armies who havent seen a new release in more than a year will hurt even more, since I really doubt they are opening up with the armies that really need help (unless GW announces a Necrons vs Grey Knights box to shut me up).

[Avaris]

So, lets see, we've had this already and it was called Vigilus. How did that go?
- People complained because new stuff for factions was split across two books. So lets split it even further!
- People complained because of book bloat. So lets make more books!
- People complained about power level being all over the place, with some stuff becoming a staple (like Dread Waagh or Devastation Battery) and other just being casual fodder. So lets make it so every faction has to wait months for their update, so when its underwhelming it hurts even harder!
- People are probably using very little of the campaign stuff, and more of the specialist stuff for regular 40k play. So lets put out EVEN MORE campaign stuff, and make people buy it for the slim fraction of pages with rules relevant to their faction of choice.
- People hated it when their faction didnt get any new stuff, at all. So first spoilered image also didnt include anyone (has been corrected now) thus angering the player base even further.

So, where do you get 'obvious progression' from? Is it obvious that GW would take the bad parts of their first attempt and go even harder at them? Because:

By ‘obvious progression’ I mean ‘this is what GW has been planning throughout’ not ‘this is the right choice’. They released codexes extremely quickly for a new edition: they wouldn’t have done so without a plan for what to do next. So by ‘obvious progression’ I mean ‘campaign supplements, rather than new editions/codexes, are the plan for GW going forward.’ Whether this is good or not very much depends on timing and price point, but I feel the principle is sound.

The problems you highlight with Vigilus are things they need to improve on to make this new model work. Without knowing more about the release schedule, it’s very difficult to judge one way or the other. Ideally, the supplements will be released regularly and focus exclusively on one or two factions, with little bloating from stuff like campaign rules, and with each army only appearing in one place. We don’t yet know if this will happen.

So your argument is that the obvious and natural development for 8th edition is... to become 7th edition? I realize we dont have a time frame for this, but this is nothing more than Warzone: Damocles and the like, except its all thematically tied together. Expansion books for a couple of armys with new things, while those whose turn isnt up yet get stuck without. Which for some armies who havent seen a new release in more than a year will hurt even more, since I really doubt they are opening up with the armies that really need help (unless GW announces a Necrons vs Grey Knights box to shut me up).

GW have made a point of saying every army will get something, which to me implies this is a relatively short run of releases rather than spread out over a year or more. That would mean that each army should only appear in a few in order to get through them all. But the timing is key. And we don’t know that yet. I agree though that it is sadly unlikely armies which desperately need updates will get one first.

[LansXero]

But it cant be 'what comes next once Codices are over' while also being 'done in a couple of months'. Because then what comes after? Once the trickle of their newest and largest event is over, whats left? Therefore, the logical conclusion of 'this is codices now' is for it to take as long as it took for the first round of codices to be done, that is, a lot more than 'a few months'. Otherwise, this is just Vigilus 2.0 and it'll be done and forgotten too soon while leaving them nothing to do and forcing even more power creep and datasheet bloat.

[Squark]

Librarians have never paid for 'Hoods. It's a non-optional extra that is only found on that unit, thus, its points cost is included as part of the model.

...

I'm not up to the math-hammer on the Fast Attack units yet. But Inceptors are still better, more often.

1) Ah. I was confused because they do actually have a cost in the Space Wolves codex, since they are optional for non-primaris rune priests
2) I was thinking of them more in comparison to, say, Long Fangs with missile launchers, who would cost 4 more points/model. You lose 1 point of strength and Fire discipline, but gain a 2nd shot, a jump pack, and a wound. The massive range difference between Inceptors and Suppressors makes comparing the two feel a bit tricky to me.

So altough marksman honours was more fluffy than game breaking, I'm still pissed they weakened it to only being +1 dmg.

A lot of good things added, wish they had kept them at dmg 2 instead of D3. I prefer predictability over random chance.

1)Yeah, nerfing that trait is weird. Let's face it, you were probably going to take target priority anyway, why make other options worse?
2)Executioner rounds have always been D3 damage; I've checked Shadowspear as well as Kill Team: Elites. Which is a little weird, actually, because I remember them being 2 damage, too. Still, more consistency would have been nice.

[Avaris]

But it cant be 'what comes next once Codices are over' while also being 'done in a couple of months'. Because then what comes after? Once the trickle of their newest and largest event is over, whats left? Therefore, the logical conclusion of 'this is codices now' is for it to take as long as it took for the first round of codices to be done, that is, a lot more than 'a few months'. Otherwise, this is just Vigilus 2.0 and it'll be done and forgotten too soon while leaving them nothing to do and forcing even more power creep and datasheet bloat.

After comes the next round of codex updates, then another campaign, then more codex updates etc. I believe GW is trying to shift to the following model:

1. Release new edition, with indexes so all models have rules (done)
2. Release codexes for each faction asap, with more detailed rules than indexes (Done)
3. Release campaign supplement with extra rules and models for some factions (Vigilus)
4. Update codexes where the previous campaign supplement results in major updates, either as 'V2' for minor updates or full rewrites (Space Marines and CSM)
5. Release new campaign supplements with rules and models for all factions (Psychic Awakening)
6. Update codexes as necessary, including retiring of old models to 'Legends'
7. Repeat steps 5 and 6 eternally. There is no 'new' edition resetting everything to point 1.

In itself, this is not a good model for us as consumers. However, done well it would have benefits. In theory, existing players are able to keep up to date by buying the campaign supplements, and ideally won't need to buy the 'v2' codexes when they are released. New players will be able to buy the latest codex for their army without it missing a load of rules from past campaign codexes. I don't believe GW will achieve this ideal.

I believe that in order to make it a good model it needs the following:

1. Campaign releases to be over a short period of time and irregular, say lasting three months once a year. At the moment, it is unclear if GW will do this sort of timing.
2. Rules available through multiple routes, not just campaign books. Unclear if GW is doing this: having datasheets available in boxes does happen in places, not sure if it is consistent though
3. The ability for players with previous codexes to easily and cheaply update. The FAQ pdfs go some way towards this, but are not enough on their own, and I don't see GW doing anything more. What we really need is a cheap official app that contains the most up to date rules.
4. Reasonable price point on campaign supplements. This requires both less bloat and each faction appearing only once or twice in any set of campaign releases. I'm unsure if GW will do well with this.
5. Controls on bloat. With constantly adding things to the range, there will be more and more things in the game and it will become unwieldy. 'Legends' helps with this, but GW needs to be willing to retire models at a reasonable pace.
6. Transparency. Telling us even approximate timescales would go a long way to achieving customer buy in. I doubt GW will do this unforunately.

I am unsure if GW will achieve any of these, and point 3 and 6 in particular are unlikely, but am optimistic on at least a few. However, even without these, I believe this model is superior to a situation where an entirely new edition rolls round every few years, as it means you aren't fully throwing out every existing codex and factions should get a steady stream of updates.

[Turalisj]

Wait. Wait wait wait.

Cheese, in what country is a 51% a pass? At least here in America, you need a 75% to pass.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Wait. Wait wait wait.

Cheese, in what country is a 51% a pass? At least here in America, you need a 75% to pass.

That strongly depends on the test, the subject and the school (speaking as a high-school teacher).

For us, a "passing grade" is a 59.5% (rounds to 60%). When I took my qualifying exam for grad school, there was a huge nasty test at the beginning (12 questions, 12 hours over 2 days). The passing grade had never been higher than 55%, and very few passed on their first try. In college, I had a test where the high was a 65%...and most did much worse. That one had an "A" set at 60%, with a D at about 35%.

[DataNinja]

Wait. Wait wait wait.

Cheese, in what country is a 51% a pass? At least here in America, you need a 75% to pass.

Up here in Canada, at least, 50%'s a pass. 73% (up until 86%) gets you a B, so that's where your passing grade'd fall in the Canadian system.
Though, of course, if you're "passing" at that level, well, you probably ain't actually ready for the next stuff, and it's highly recommended to re-take some stuff.

[Requizen]

I think the real downer is the piecemeal approach to what's coming out. One Space Marine character here, one Necromunda character there, a scattering of optional Warcry stuff... where's the centrepiece? Where's the unifying theme that draws everyone in rather than just a couple here and there?

I think the Bonereapers and Sisters were supposed to be the big centerpieces. Bonereapers obviously don't appeal to 40k players, though, and Sisters were known about, so I feel like it lacks some punch (at least to this thread, I like the skelly boys).

Wait. Wait wait wait.

Cheese, in what country is a 51% a pass? At least here in America, you need a 75% to pass.

In most countries. US just has a pretty messed up school system.

[Blackhawk748]

Wait. Wait wait wait.

Cheese, in what country is a 51% a pass? At least here in America, you need a 75% to pass.

Ya, in my experience its a 70% at a minimum. Even in college unless its something really weird.

Also, ew, more books. I'd rather not have to carry 4 books. Did that in 7th ed and it sucked.

[LansXero]

The ****ing what now? Well any chance in hell of me buying those is gone. My Sisters are White and Blue and an off shoot of Sacred Rose, they are not Order of our Martyred Lady. THERE ARE MORE ORDERS THAN THAT ONE GW!!

Argent Shroud represent! But more seriously, its been confirmed they are unpainted.

[Squark]

So, despite owning a codex and the big rulebook for months, I haven't actually played a game of 8th edition yet. Actually, I've been struggling with list building so much (2 HQs per battalion is kind of a pain at 1000 points), I haven't really finished a list. Well, I'm close to finishing a 1000 point list.

Spoiler

Show

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [49 PL, 8CP, 898pts] ++

+ HQ +

Rune Priest [6 PL, 105pts]: Bolt pistol, Psychic hood, Runic axe

Wolf Lord [5 PL, 105pts]: Saga of Majesty, Storm shield, The Wulfen Stone, Thunder hammer, Warlord

+ Troops +

Grey Hunters [6 PL, 112pts]:
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword
. 3x Grey Hunter w/Chainsword
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Plasma gun, Chainsword
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Combi-plasma, Power fist

Grey Hunters [6 PL, 112pts]:
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword
. 3x Grey Hunter w/Chainsword
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Plasmagun, Chainsword
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Combi-plasma, Power fist

Grey Hunters [6 PL, 112pts]:
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword
. 3x Grey Hunter w/Chainsword
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Plasmagun, Chainsword
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Combi-plasma, Power fist

+ Heavy Support +

Long Fangs [8 PL, 130pts]
. 2x Missile Launcher
. 2x Heavy Bolter

+ Dedicated Transport +

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

++ Total: [49 PL, 8CP, 898pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

So, that leaves me with 102 points. At this point, I'm looking for things to support the long fangs so they don't get hunt out to dry. A couple of options occur to me

-A Phobos Captain's aura is slightly redundant, but he does have the "stay away" bubble, and fits in nicely at 99 points
-Alternatively, by making my wolf lord WYSIWYG and dropping to a Power Fist, I can make room for 5 Infiltrators, who bring objective secured and the "stay away" bubble
-5 Intercessors gives me more scoring units and leftover points enough to upgrade the third rhino to a Heavy Bolter Razorback
-A Great Company Ancient leaves me with enough points for a 3rd Missile Fang.

Thoughts?

[LansXero]

How wolfed up are your models? Because that list really doesnt want to be space wolves.

[Squark]

How wolfed up are your models? Because that list really doesnt want to be space wolves.

Very. And why not? The Grey Hunters and HQs can jumo out of the rhino and charge after shooting, while the Long Fangs provide fire support.

And if it is ill suited to 8th edition Space Wolves, what would make it better? Drop the plasmaguns for power axes?

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm genuinely confused. This seems like what ought to be a pretty basic space wolves list. Or is this a case of a codex not really working the way the fluff suggests it should.

[Cheesegear]

Cheese, in what country is a 51% a pass? At least here in America, you need a 75% to pass.

Loads?

Spoiler: Australian GPA

Show

85% = HD / A+ / 7
75%-84% = D / A / 6
65%-74% = C / B / 5
51%-64% = P / C / 4
<50% = F / F / 0-3

Is the standard. However, marks can go up or down depending on how you're expected to know. I had a friend who did a theoretical physics test and the Pass (P) mark was only 30%, whilst HDs were given out as low as 70%. I, personally, took an Oceanography elective in 3rd year where the Pass mark was 80%. So yeah. In my head, 51% (i.e; More than half) still counts as a Pass, even if it's basically a joke.

[LansXero]

Very. And why not? The Grey Hunters and HQs can jumo out of the rhino and charge after shooting, while the Long Fangs provide fire support.

And if it is ill suited to 8th edition Space Wolves, what would make it better? Drop the plasmaguns for power axes?

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm genuinely confused. This seems like what ought to be a pretty basic space wolves list. Or is this a case of a codex not really working the way the fluff suggests it should.

Jumping out of a transport isnt a thing anymore. You disembark before the transport moves, so while sure, you can flat out in the rhino, you then have to eat a turn inside while everything you didnt touch with your piddly storm bolters takes shots at either your T8 and cracks it, or cant crack it and ignores it going for your not-devastators.

Your captain cant both hang out giving re-rolls to your long fangs and use his thunder hammer on anything relevant at the same time, as he wont be in range. So thats also an issue to consider. Moving on foot to get him to charge something is equally bad, specially with how many snipers are showing up lately (while I lament the loss of my Mark of the Incomparable Hunter autarch with a Reaper Launcher :'() and how many fast things can just have him running around.

It all depends on your playgroup and what you'll face of course, but I dont think much in the SW Codex is well suited for a gunline or mechanized army. Wulfen are the core of the codex, as are things with jump packs or thunder wolves so they can get to melee in time to be relevant.

[Squark]

Jumping out of a transport isnt a thing anymore. You disembark before the transport moves, so while sure, you can flat out in the rhino, you then have to eat a turn inside while everything you didnt touch with your piddly storm bolters takes shots at either your T8 and cracks it, or cant crack it and ignores it going for your not-devastators.

Your captain cant both hang out giving re-rolls to your long fangs and use his thunder hammer on anything relevant at the same time, as he wont be in range. So thats also an issue to consider. Moving on foot to get him to charge something is equally bad, specially with how many snipers are showing up lately (while I lament the loss of my Mark of the Incomparable Hunter autarch with a Reaper Launcher :'() and how many fast things can just have him running around.

It all depends on your playgroup and what you'll face of course, but I dont think much in the SW Codex is well suited for a gunline or mechanized army. Wulfen are the core of the codex, as are things with jump packs or thunder wolves so they can get to melee in time to be relevant.

1)I was aware, but I suppose that is a bigger concern if you go second, meaning the transports take 2 turns of fire before they deliver their passengers.
2) The Wolf Lord was riding in one of the rhinos- Long Fangs already have a source of re-rolls to hit. Hence the use of the wulfenstone+Saga of Majesty to get a 6" aura of +1 Attacks.
3) Great... I can... tolerate wulfen (still annoyed by the retcon, though), but if I wanted Jump packs, I'd play blood angels, and 7th permanently soured me to Thunderwolves via overexposure.

Well, I appreciate the feedback. Still have to actually scout out my local meta, though.

[LansXero]

Have you considered a Dreadnought? The characters are shooty enough and still get to Heroic Intervene 6" so thats not nothing.

Melee this edition is in a pretty bad place, because even if you dont die getting there, 'there' might mean 'in range of a bunch of guardsmen', and then after making mincemeat out of them they die to Tank Commander fire. Also, so many things that either fly or can fall back and shoot.

[Cheesegear]

Rune Priest; Runic Axe, Psychic Hood - 105 Points

You know what Powers you want? My guess is Tempest's Wrath and Storm Caller?

(W) Wolf Lord; Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Saga of Majesty, The Wulfen Stone - 105 Points

For a Space Wolves list, I'm seeing a distinct lack of Wulfen, Blood Claws and Thunderwolves. At the very outside, you should be including Wolf Guard with Jump Packs or Fenrisan Wolves. With Shock Assault being a thing, Wulfen Stone should annihilate people...But...Not with the units you have. Instead of a Thunder Hammer, this guy really looks like he'd be better off with either Black Death or Frostfury...Preferably the latter.

Grey Hunters (x5); Plasma Gun, Chainswords
+ WGPL; Combi-Plasma & Power Fist

(x3)

If you've been out of 8th Ed. for a while (and you have, welcome back!), Tactical Squads have died a horrible fiery death, one of the things that makes Space Wolves one of the worst Codecies in the game (truly sorry), is that they don't have Scouts as Troops. It was only in Vigilus that Space Wolves were resurrected and Blood Claws became viable. Luckily for most Space Wolf players, the difference between a Grey Hunter and a Blood Claw is a single Bolt Pistol arm-swap that Wolf players have loads of, changing a Boltgun into a Bolt Pistol (because who even bothers to paint Pack markings...Oh wait, loads of people do).

Generally speaking, if it worked in 7th Ed., you want to get rid of it, now. I know that sucks. But that's how it is. And that's coming from me, someone who owned (but not necessarily played, I have to say this every time) a Battle Company with 12 free Razorbacks. Guess how many Razorbacks I've used since Chapter Approved '17? Guess how many Drop Pods I've used since 8th Ed. launch? ...Well, okay...Drop Pods received a massive buff two weeks ago...So...Two.

Hell, at this point, coming up on CA'19, you're better off picking up a few Know No Fear boxes (the best box GW has ever produced) and running Intercessors... The joke of course is that the Space Wolf Codex barely rates Primaris Marines and that Intercessors would be better in any other Codex, and the Space Wolf Codex means, Codex: Wulfen, and that you should be running Wulfen, and anything that pairs well with getting re-rolls to Charge and +1 Attack.
(e.g; Wolf Guard with Jump Packs)

Long Fangs (x5); Heavy Bolters (x2), Missile Launchers (x2) - 130 Points

You'll want to change this to Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Lascannons (x2).

Rhino; Storm Bolters (x2) - 74 Points (x3 = 222 Points)

This, unfortunately, is real bad. Because a Transport can carry multiple units, at best, you only need 2. Two Rhinos will carry all your Grey Hunters and the Wolf Lord. So, dropping at least one Rhino is strongly advised.

A Phobos Captain's aura is slightly redundant, but he does have the "stay away" bubble, and fits in nicely at 99 points

Should replace the Wolf Lord with one, IMO.

Alternatively, by making my wolf lord WYSIWYG and dropping to a Power Fist, I can make room for 5 Infiltrators, who bring objective secured and the "stay away" bubble

Which allows you to drop a unit of Grey Hunters, for more points.

5 Intercessors gives me more scoring units and leftover points enough to upgrade the third rhino to a Heavy Bolter Razorback

Intercessors would also replace a unit of Grey Hunters, allowing you to drop the second Rhino.

A Great Company Ancient leaves me with enough points for a 3rd Missile Fang.

If you're running a GCA, you need a lot more Long Fangs, Hellblasters, or both.
If you're running multiple units of Long Fangs and Hellblasters...Play anything other than Space Wolves. Hell, even a Blood Angels' gunline has Ignore Wounds.


It sounds like you're one of those players who likes the Space Wolves aesthetic (wrrryyy...), but isn't actually playing by any of their rules. Like... Everything you wrote - including the alternatives for what to do with 102 Points - was not playing to Space Wolves' strengths:
I'm still waiting for "How do I jam Bjorn and Murderfang into 1000 Points? It's possible, right?"

[Squark]

Tactical squads killed off to make room for Intercessors*... I'd say "yay," but there isn't a sufficiently small font to convey the sarcasm. I mean, I don't mind Intercessors, but... Blegh, like you said, having so many models become obsolete sucks.

Nitpick: Those Grey Hunter packs were 6 man squads- The Wolf Guard Pack Leader doesn't replace anyone. Hence the large number of rhinos. Each carries a pack, with an HQ in 2 of them.

Re: Blood Claws being good again: Right, the Vigilus thing. So I need to pick up a $40 ebook for what, 1 page?

So, to borrow from one of your old sayings, Cheasegear, how do we make what I like good- Or rather, less bad. Well, let's start with what I like. The main reason Bjorn was absent from the mk.1 list is because the Rhinos took up to many space. With them gone, I have a lot more free points. I could also look at the newly buffed drop pods. Hmm... I'll have to sleep on this.

*On reflection, this may not entirely be the intercessors' fault, as short of dropping even more points or the basic bolter improving (which would mean the other bolter variants would probably also need to improve to continue being better than the basic boltgun), I guess tactical marines would still be in an awkward place.

Edit:

I'm still waiting for "How do I jam Bjorn and Murderfang into 1000 Points? It's possible, right?"

Bjorn with Twin Lascannon, Phobos Librarian, 2 units of Intercessors with Auto bolt rifles, a unit of infiltrators, Murderfang, and 6 Long Fangs with 3 Lascannons, a Heavy Bolter, and a Missile Launcher. My sarcasm detector is terrible, so I don't know if this was an honest suggestion or a joke. I just saw a challenge and accepted it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Psychic Awakening
"Pay-to-win microtransactions" in book form.

Let's be real here: There will be nothing "micro" about those transactions. This is GW, after all.

[Cheesegear]

Tactical squads killed off to make room for Intercessors*

I don't know if you've kept up. But the main...Issue...Is that Boltguns are no longer a relevant part of the game.
The switch from 7th!AP5 (Everything that wasn't a Marine 'died to Boltguns') to 8th!AP- (Everything gets a save vs. Boltguns) was a huge kick in the junk to all Astartes players. After all, baked into the design documents of 8th Ed. was 'Make not-Marines good.' and rather than doing one thing, they pulled a classic GW and did two nerfs instead of one:
1. Nerf the problem.
2. Buff everything else.

Creating a simultaneous double-nerf, which put most 7th Ed. Astartes lists (based around Tactical Marines, that is) in the toilet. The arrival of Primaris Marines had nothing to do with Tactical Marines becoming irrelevant. T4 and a 3+ save is fairly good, considering the current meta. The problem is 13 12 Points and carrying a weapon that does ****-all. Sternguard, carrying an AP-2 Boltgun with the option of +1 to wound, is the new 'standard Marine'.

In the 8th Ed. meta, the new 'standard' Marine weapon is a Storm Bolter. Deathwatch are what you play now if you want to play old!Marines. However, with Shock Assault and the rising tide of Thousand Sons Supreme Commands, Grey Knights are becoming relevant again. So that's neat.

Re: Blood Claws being good again: Right, the Vigilus thing. So I need to pick up a $40 ebook for what, 1 page?

...

My sarcasm detector is terrible, so I don't know if [including both <Character Dreadnoughts>] was an honest suggestion or a joke. I just saw a challenge and accepted it.

No. It's real. LansXero even suggested it...My comment was more to do with the fact that you weren't playing to Space Wolves' strengths, and then showing you what a 'real' (in quotes) Space Wolves player would try and do.

Have you considered a Dreadnought? The Characters are shooty enough and still get to Heroic Intervene 6" so thats not nothing.

So yeah, jamming both Bjorn and Murderfang into 1000 Points really is what a lot of Wolf players try and do - for better or worse.

...You misunderstand, I will make it Dreadjammer.

[Forum Explorer]

1)I was aware, but I suppose that is a bigger concern if you go second, meaning the transports take 2 turns of fire before they deliver their passengers.
2) The Wolf Lord was riding in one of the rhinos- Long Fangs already have a source of re-rolls to hit. Hence the use of the wulfenstone+Saga of Majesty to get a 6" aura of +1 Attacks.
3) Great... I can... tolerate wulfen (still annoyed by the retcon, though), but if I wanted Jump packs, I'd play blood angels, and 7th permanently soured me to Thunderwolves via overexposure.

Well, I appreciate the feedback. Still have to actually scout out my local meta, though.

It likely won't stay this way, but Drop Pods are the same(ish) points as a Rhino and do the same job, but better.

Tactical squads killed off to make room for Intercessors*... I'd say "yay," but there isn't a sufficiently small font to convey the sarcasm. I mean, I don't mind Intercessors, but... Blegh, like you said, having so many models become obsolete sucks.

Nitpick: Those Grey Hunter packs were 6 man squads- The Wolf Guard Pack Leader doesn't replace anyone. Hence the large number of rhinos. Each carries a pack, with an HQ in 2 of them.

Re: Blood Claws being good again: Right, the Vigilus thing. So I need to pick up a $40 ebook for what, 1 page?

So, to borrow from one of your old sayings, Cheasegear, how do we make what I like good- Or rather, less bad. Well, let's start with what I like. The main reason Bjorn was absent from the mk.1 list is because the Rhinos took up to many space. With them gone, I have a lot more free points. I could also look at the newly buffed drop pods. Hmm... I'll have to sleep on this.

*On reflection, this may not entirely be the intercessors' fault, as short of dropping even more points or the basic bolter improving (which would mean the other bolter variants would probably also need to improve to continue being better than the basic boltgun), I guess tactical marines would still be in an awkward place.

Edit:
Bjorn with Twin Lascannon, Phobos Librarian, 2 units of Intercessors with Auto bolt rifles, a unit of infiltrators, Murderfang, and 6 Long Fangs with 3 Lascannons, a Heavy Bolter, and a Missile Launcher. My sarcasm detector is terrible, so I don't know if this was an honest suggestion or a joke. I just saw a challenge and accepted it.

Yeah, you want Blood Claws. If you don't like Jump Packs, you can also go bikes! But Bikes can't climb ruins, and that can be a problem. Space Wolves can do Terminators with !Thor, because they can actually take a mix of melee and shooty terminators in the same squad. They still have the usual Terminator problems though of being overcosted.

But if I were to run melee Space Wolves with no wulfen or thunder wolves, then it would be a combination of Blood Claws in drop pods, Blood Claws in the Flying Boat. And then maybe some Wolf Guard Terminators with Auric.

As for the Vigilus thing, I'd suggest just taking a picture of the single page you need.

[LansXero]

For the Vigilus issue, I humbly suggest:
https://battlescribe.net/

Its free (with an opt-in payment for extra functions that arent vital), fan-updated so prone to being slightly out of date for a lil' while after releases and maybe something slips here and there, but still HUGELY more functional than shifting through several books or buying supplements for a couple of pages worth of rules. If you've got your faction' datacards, that also helps :)