[3.5] How can I not fail a nat 1 Will save?

[RoTWS]

Trying to make a Frenzied Berserker who cannot fail the will save, but haven't found a way around a natural 1 being an automatic failure. Is there a feat or item that lets you negate that for Will saves like Steadfast Determination does for Fortitude saves? If not, where can I get rerolls I can use when I do roll that nat 1?
Other ways to improve my Will saves are welcome, though I've already made it to +19 without rage by the time I have more frenzies than rages. I already have Steadfast Determination, Iron Will, dips in Cleric and variant-alignment Paladin, stat-boosting items for both Constitution and Charisma, a Vest of Resistance, and a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (which is a godsend for this build).

[Bavarian itP]

Dumb Luck, from Complete Scoundrel. Needs two other luck feats as pre-req.

https://dndtools.net/feats/complete-...umb-luck--778/

[Darg]

Protected Destiny from RoD
Luck Domain power
Guardian Spirit feat that requires 1 level Wu Jen
Lucky from 11 levels Swashbuckler

And if you don't mind some pretty heavy requirements there is the Luckstealer Prc which would take away from you being an actual barbarian.

[noce]

Moment of perfect mind is an immediate activation maneuver that lets you use concentration in place of will save, and a natural 1 is not an automatic failure. You can take it with Martial Study, which also gives you concentration as a class skill, and you can use that maneuver 1/encounter.
You could also take this maneuver with a Novice ring of the Diamond Mind.

Amulet of fortune prevailing is a magic item from Magic Item Compendium that lets you reroll a save 1/day.

Mantle of second chances is a magic item from Magic Item Compendium that lets you reroll a d20 1/day, but it's more expensive than the amulet.

[Buufreak]

Being a god helps. I believe anything above DiR 0 doesn't auto fail anything.

[Kaleph]

Planar touchstone, catalogue of enlightenment --> pride domain should let you automatically reroll any roll of 1 on a save.

[Gruftzwerg]

While coming a bit late, imho the most elegant way is the "Iron Heart Surge" maneuver (Warblade 3, requires a iron heart maneuver). Maneuvers are allowed while raging. Just use Iron Heart Surge to end your Rage ability. Further you can use it to get rid of the fatigued/exhausted conditions of your rage abilities.

@lvl 10:
- Either get it via a single lvl dip into Warblade
- with 2x Martial Study feat (one for the Iron Heart maneuver prerequisite)
- a double enchanted Iron Heart Vest (one for the Iron Heart maneuver prerequisite); costs 2.5 x 1.5k g= 3.75k gold

Since a single use per encounter is enough, all options are viable.

Sure comes late, but will never fail to work and can be abused for so many other things as panic button.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The Pride Domain granted power lets you reroll nat 1's the first time you roll them each roll.

[Elkad]

Moment of perfect mind ...

Concentration check. Normally disallowed while raging, though I think there is a workaround for that as well.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Moment of perfect mind is an immediate activation maneuver that lets you use concentration in place of will save, and a natural 1 is not an automatic failure. You can take it with Martial Study, which also gives you concentration as a class skill, and you can use that maneuver 1/encounter.
You could also take this maneuver with a Novice ring of the Diamond Mind.

Amulet of fortune prevailing is a magic item from Magic Item Compendium that lets you reroll a save 1/day.

Mantle of second chances is a magic item from Magic Item Compendium that lets you reroll a d20 1/day, but it's more expensive than the amulet.

Unfortunately, Rage/Frenzy specifically call out not being able to use the Concentration skill. It's debatable whether that applies to Moment of Perfect Mind, but I'd ask the DM before you take the dip into Warblade.

While coming a bit late, imho the most elegant way is the "Iron Heart Surge" maneuver (Warblade 3, requires a iron heart maneuver). Maneuvers are allowed while raging. Just use Iron Heart Surge to end your Rage ability. Further you can use it to get rid of the fatigued/exhausted conditions of your rage abilities.

Similarly, watch how Iron Heart Surge interacts with Frenzy. IHS absolutely ends a Frenzy if you trigger it(and DOES work on the Fatigue), but Frenzy requires you attack to the best of your ability every turn, and IHS requires a standard action spent not attacking. I don't see IHS ever being useful in this case.

[noce]

Honorable mention: Righteous Wrath from Book of Exalted Deeds.

By RAW it only works for Rage, not Frenzy.
What it does is allowing you to deal nonlethal damage, discern friends from foes, and allowing you to stop attacking.

I mention this feat because a raging barbarian can already do all these things, so it's reasonable to talk to your DM asking to apply the feat during Frenzy.

[Gruftzwerg]

Unfortunately, Rage/Frenzy specifically call out not being able to use the Concentration skill. It's debatable whether that applies to Moment of Perfect Mind, but I'd ask the DM before you take the dip into Warblade.


Similarly, watch how Iron Heart Surge interacts with Frenzy. IHS absolutely ends a Frenzy if you trigger it(and DOES work on the Fatigue), but Frenzy requires you attack to the best of your ability every turn, and IHS requires a standard action spent not attacking. I don't see IHS ever being useful in this case.

Let's have a look at Frenzy:

While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can she cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls. She can use any feat she has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, or metamagic feats. She can use her special ability to inspire frenzy (see below) normally.

During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability.

1. First Frenzy talks about those action that you may not do. Maneuvers is not one of em and IIRC there are statements from the customer support that supports this. So you may use Maneuvers that don't fall under the forbidden actions (e.g. maneuvers with Concentration checks wouldn't work).

2. Since you can get maneuvers via feats, you have another indicator that it is allowed.

3. Imho Frenzy only forces you to attack if you don't use any other legal actions. There is no indicator that you may not do anything else than attacking. It's just if you don't take any (legal) actions (like a feat or a non forbidden maneuver), you have to attack no matter what else you had in mind. You may not stand idle away from enemies, nor may you move away without the intention of a ranged attack (tactical repositioning for ranged attack = yes; retreat = no). That's my point of view about IHS. If attacking would be the primary restriction of the ability imho they would have mentioned it first and not last. But IHS first tells you what you are not allowed, than what is allowed and finally restricts you to attacking your enemies to your best.
I mean, if they had it the other way in mind, than they would have indicated that with something like "you may use feats while/for attacking".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can use Rage and Frenzy at the same time, so Righteous Wrath in BoED will work for frenzy as long as you're also raging.

If you go with the Dumb Luck feat, you can say you visited the Court of Thieves in CS to get a bonus luck feat to help qualify that for 6,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it. That saves you one feat, and the Otyugh Hole gets you Iron Will for 3,000 gp, saving you another feat.

[Biggus]

Planar touchstone, catalogue of enlightenment --> pride domain should let you automatically reroll any roll of 1 on a save.

This is the best solution if it's available, it's the only thing which will allow you to reroll it every time. See Planar Handbook p.41, 153-154, and 166-167.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

1. First Frenzy talks about those action that you may not do. Maneuvers is not one of em and IIRC there are statements from the customer support that supports this. So you may use Maneuvers that don't fall under the forbidden actions (e.g. maneuvers with Concentration checks wouldn't work).

2. Since you can get maneuvers via feats, you have another indicator that it is allowed.

3. Imho Frenzy only forces you to attack if you don't use any other legal actions. There is no indicator that you may not do anything else than attacking. It's just if you don't take any (legal) actions (like a feat or a non forbidden maneuver), you have to attack no matter what else you had in mind. You may not stand idle away from enemies, nor may you move away without the intention of a ranged attack (tactical repositioning for ranged attack = yes; retreat = no). That's my point of view about IHS. If attacking would be the primary restriction of the ability imho they would have mentioned it first and not last. But IHS first tells you what you are not allowed, than what is allowed and finally restricts you to attacking your enemies to your best.
I mean, if they had it the other way in mind, than they would have indicated that with something like "you may use feats while/for attacking".

You cut the Frenzy text off early.

During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or her own).

That says to me that the person needs to be using the full-attack action, charge, standard action attack, or maneuvers that involve attacks if those are possible, since it spells out that you have to keep attacking even if all the enemies are dead and you are now surrounded by orphans and puppies. IHS is one of the few standard-action maneuvers that doesn't involve an attack, so it's not available unless you're unable to attack.

Ask yourself this: Would you be fine with a Frenzied Berserker using standard-action Intimidate every round until the Frenzy ends so that he doesn't attack his friends?

Edit: Iron Heart Focus lets you reroll any save, but it's a 5th level maneuver, meaning you can't get it until roughly level 17 if I'm doing the math right.

[Gruftzwerg]

You cut the Frenzy text off early.

That says to me that the person needs to be using the full-attack action, charge, standard action attack, or maneuvers that involve attacks if those are possible, since it spells out that you have to keep attacking even if all the enemies are dead and you are now surrounded by orphans and puppies. IHS is one of the few standard-action maneuvers that doesn't involve an attack, so it's not available unless you're unable to attack.

Ask yourself this: Would you be fine with a Frenzied Berserker using standard-action Intimidate every round until the Frenzy ends so that he doesn't attack his friends?

Edit: Iron Heart Focus lets you reroll any save, but it's a 5th level maneuver, meaning you can't get it until roughly level 17 if I'm doing the math right.

I did cut it off because it just further explained the attack-clause, but that doesn't affect/change my argument in any way. Sorry if you had the impression that it is deceiving, that was not my intention.

Let me try another approach to explain my point of view:

Frenzy allows you to express the wish to end frenzy with a will save (in the moment as you see it fit). It's silent if that is the sole way to end the Frenzy, which allows for other "legal" methods to end the Frenzy, if you should have any.

Iron Heart Surge is as maneuver/feat legal, since the rule allowing feats doesn't explicitly require you to use an attack feat. It just limits the selection of usable feats, nothing more.

The Attack-clause only comes into effect if you didn't choose any other legal option.

_____________

Intimidate:
Intimidate is only legal if you use it on any real enemy or on your nearest ally if no enemy is available. Once there is no real enemy left, your targeting gets locked to the nearest.
With that in mind, you could use it on the first round after all enemies have dropped on your nearest ally which you need to threaten, which includes moving up to the nearest ally.
If you succeed and your ally fails his roll, you can't intimidate him again due to the 1 round debuff duration and thus have to attack him in the next round.
Unless your nearest target has changed:
if your allies are smart enough to play aggro ping-pong and you have now a new nearest target, you could choose to intimidate the new target. Remember that this rule kicks in the moment the last enemy is down (or you can't see any more). Imho this is even a good example, how it's depicted in fantasy stories, when allies deal with their Berserker friend. They switch his attention constantly and by that provoke an Intimidate attempt from the Berserker every time, since he get even more angry/annoyed with each switch. Imho this is not only RAW, but also RAI that it works.

____________________

Iron Heart Surge is a Crusader 3 ability not 5. And thus a Crusader with 5 Initiatorlevel could get it. As noninitiator class your Initiatorlevel is 1/2 and thus the latest moment it becomes available is at lvl 10, when you don't have Warbalde level or only dip1 lvl. If you dip more, it comes even earlier available (e.g. @lvl8 = abc 6 / Warblade 2).

[Gorthawar]

Let's have a look at Frenzy:

...

3. Imho Frenzy only forces you to attack if you don't use any other legal actions. There is no indicator that you may not do anything else than attacking.
....
I mean, if they had it the other way in mind, than they would have indicated that with something like "you may use feats while/for attacking".

As you say this is your interpretation that might not work on many a table.

There are 3 rules that govern the actions you can do during a frenzy and you have to comply with all of them and not in a specific order.

1. Can't do a bunch of things. This is clear and nobody argues this point.
2. Can use feats with some exceptions. The important thing here is the use of [b]can[b] which means it's an optional choice.
3. [B]Must attack[b]. Must is a very strong word that implies that you have to do something.

As such you can use any feat or maneuver you want as long as you attack somebody following RAW. Using IHS is not one of these.

Your example of using intimate is not an attack either. If you we're allowed to use feats and skills like you describe you could just use the track feat mid combat to avoid attacking your party or start basket weaving once all opponents are defeated.

The one bit were the frenzy rules are open is when it states that you have to attack to the best of your ability. Do you have to attack your party without best maneuver? Do you have to charge/pounce on your mates and use the full might of your shock trooper PA?
This will depend on your DM and is good thing to review before the session starts.

RAW you could just arm your berserker with a truncheon only and do non-lethal damage to your team only. Might make for some interesting RPG opportunities as well. "Nooo, don't touch that sharp sword"

[Gruftzwerg]

As you say this is your interpretation that might not work on many a table.

There are 3 rules that govern the actions you can do during a frenzy and you have to comply with all of them and not in a specific order.

1. Can't do a bunch of things. This is clear and nobody argues this point.
2. Can use feats with some exceptions. The important thing here is the use of [b]can[b] which means it's an optional choice.
3. [B]Must attack[b]. Must is a very strong word that implies that you have to do something.

As such you can use any feat or maneuver you want as long as you attack somebody following RAW. Using IHS is not one of these.

Your example of using intimate is not an attack either. If you we're allowed to use feats and skills like you describe you could just use the track feat mid combat to avoid attacking your party or start basket weaving once all opponents are defeated.

The one bit were the frenzy rules are open is when it states that you have to attack to the best of your ability. Do you have to attack your party without best maneuver? Do you have to charge/pounce on your mates and use the full might of your shock trooper PA?
This will depend on your DM and is good thing to review before the session starts.

RAW you could just arm your berserker with a truncheon only and do non-lethal damage to your team only. Might make for some interesting RPG opportunities as well. "Nooo, don't touch that sharp sword"

1. -----

2. If feats and skills would be just an option for while attacking, it would be more logical to tell you the attack condition first and than explain what you may do while attacking. But the text ain't formulated in any kind like that. It explains, what you may not do, what you may do, and gives you a default action you have to fall back when you don't pick any other legal actions.

3. Pls reread the ability again. But I'll requote the important part again to support my argument still.

While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate),

Intimidate is a clear exception from the forbidden Skills. And since the use of Intimidate is a non attack action, you have a clear indicator that you are not doomed to pick "attack actions" every turn while Frenzied. You may pick other legal actions as described. So what happened to "must attack" now?

As you can clearly see, "must attack" don't have any kind of priority over the other legal options. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to use Intimidate. It's just as said, the default option to fallback, when you don't or can't pick any other legal actions for your Frenzy state.

Frenzy is not 100% brain-dead, only to 99%^^
You may have the wish to try to end you Frenzy which is an indicator that you aren't totally out of your mind. For me this translates to "just have barely control over your body reactions". Cause the desire to end the Frenzy needs some mental reasoning to do so. So you are mentally aware what is happening and try to regain control over your body with your mental actions. Further she can discern between friend and foe, cause the attack nearest ally condition starts when all foes are dropped which is an indicator for that
.
This all leads to the result that the mental decision making may abuse legal actions that prevent you from attacking. Like the use of Intimidate, you may use Iron Heart Surge. Both legal actions. Neither Skills nor Feats have the attack condition and may be abused to not attack in this round, as long as the action is legal.

It just have to be a legal action. Remember that Intimidate is thus a limited option as in my previous post above (you can't Intimidate the same target in the following round if the Intimidate in the first round was successful and you can only Intimidate the nearest target).

edit: twisted a ability name.. corrected.

[Gorthawar]

Yes intimidate is a skill you are allowed to use. As is balance, jump and profession (basketweaver). The reason you can't start weaving baskets in the middle of combat is the requirement that you must attack to the best of your ability. If that means jumping a chasm to attack your nearest ally you can do so because jump is not a forbidden skill. But again you can't just start jumping up and down for the fun of it.
As such you can only use the intimidate skill whilst you attack to the best of your abilities as well and therefore fulfill all three rules criteria. Two examples from CW that make this possible are the feats intimidating rage and intimidating strike.

[Jowgen]

As a note, instead of Planar Touchstone, you can also simply take the regular Touchstone feat from Sandstorm. Easier to qualify for (i.e. having a touchstone key is an OR requirement to the Ranks) and explicitly can be used to attune to planar sites as well.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yes intimidate is a skill you are allowed to use. As is balance, jump and profession (basketweaver). The reason you can't start weaving baskets in the middle of combat is the requirement that you must attack to the best of your ability. If that means jumping a chasm to attack your nearest ally you can do so because jump is not a forbidden skill. But again you can't just start jumping up and down for the fun of it.
As such you can only use the intimidate skill whilst you attack to the best of your abilities as well and therefore fulfill all three rules criteria. Two examples from CW that make this possible are the feats intimidating rage and intimidating strike.

It would be nice if you would reread the ability text as I said before you post more nonsense. It's getting annoying to point you to the same sentence again and again:

While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can she cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls. She can use any feat she has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, or metamagic feats. She can use her special ability to inspire frenzy (see below) normally.

Profession (Cha) (Wis)- Not allowed (edit:)Requires to much concentration and or fine movement.
Balance (Dex) - Not allowed
Jump (Str) - Allowed, but since it's only a moveaction as it's best, you still have to attack after that and may not jump away from targets.

What was your point again? Could you finally read the ability before annoying me with more nonsense what you think what stays in the ability text and try to confirm it first with the ability text before posting? thx. I have quoted the ability several times for you and you still seem to haven't read it once. Otherwise it is a riddle for me how you can have these responses.
I really have to genuinely ask: Are you trying to troll me here?

edit: corrected Profession. I must have been sleeping or something. Maybe because I am working on a Perform build simultaneously dunno^^

[Gorthawar]

Ah yes slight mistake there. Balance is off limits that's why grease is so efficient against a berserker. My bad. Profession or survival however are Wisdom based and therefore allowed according to your rules understanding. I just don't understand even after reading the section you've posted multiple times how you can ignore the must attack part of the rules. Just because it states that you can use intimidate amongst a number of skills it doesn't remove the requirement to attack.

Edit: clarification on balance by including grease spell.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ah yes slight mistake there. Balance is off limits that's why grease is so efficient against a berserker. My bad. Profession or survival however are Wisdom based and therefore allowed according to your rules understanding. I just don't understand even after reading the section you've posted multiple times how you can ignore the must attack part of the rules. Just because it states that you can use intimidate amongst a number of skills it doesn't remove the requirement to attack.

Edit: clarification on balance by including grease spell.

It doesn't remove the attack requirement. It bypasses it as long as you do other legal actions, since it doesn't have priority over the other legal action as you want to make it look like. Using Intimidate is legal as the rules explicitly point out. And using it in combat is a Standard Action. Thus the legal actions for Frenzy may include abilities/skills that use up the actions needed otherwise to attack.
If intimidate is a legal action, so is Iron Heart Surge. Both use up a standard action and deny you any regular attacks for that round. There is no difference. Both are on the legit abilities side which you may use while on Frenzy.

Where is the difference between wasting your possible attack action with a Standard Action from Intimidate, to the Standard Action of Iron Heart Surge? There is none as far as I can tell. Explain me pls, where you see the difference?


@professions/survival...: You need to much concentration for things like this and thus not a legal target if it isn't obvious for you. (maybe not intensive as other things you can concentrate on but enough to deny it by RAW). How can you expect that crafting, professions or thoughts about survival (skill) takes less concentration than lets say "tumble (Dex)"? You need to much patience and/or accurate body movement for both.

________________

You assume that the "must attack" condition has priority over everything else. But that is not the chase. It is mentioned last and nothing in the text indicated that it takes precedence.

if you can follow my arguments so far, the Frenzy Restriction-Priority-list for legal actions looks like this:
1. you may select a non forbidden action if it is available/legal atm (including legal non attack options)
2. if you don't (want to) pick a legal action yourself, check if there are foes left to attack and do so if they are
3. if there aren't any foes left, target the nearest ally

If you think that the restriction priority for Frenzy looks different, than explain it and show us how Intimidate (standard action) works out with those restriction-priorities.

[OrbanSirgen]

Profession (Cha) - Not allowed

Profession is Wis...

[Gruftzwerg]

Profession is Wis...

oh yeah, i must have been sleeping..^^ thx for pointing it out.
but doesn't change that it still requires to much concentration and/or fine body movement imho.

[AnimeTheCat]

I suspect that Intimidate is called out as allowed specifically because the feat "Intimidating Rage" is required for the class, which allows you to use Intimidate as a free action against one target, thus not rendering you unable to attack in that same round. You still must attack those you perceive as enemies, but you can also intimidate them too, as it does not negatively impact your ability to attack.

Just my 2 cp.

[ShurikVch]

If 3rd-party stuff is allowed...

Fool's Luck

You have an innate ability to turn bad situations to your advantage.
Benefits: Once per day, you may choose to ignore the effects of a failed roll of any sort (attack roll, saving throw, skill check) and convert it into a success, provided you can explain how what at first appeared to be a failure was, in fact, a success. For example, you make a swing in a crowded cabin on a ship and fail to hit the evil buccaneer that threatens your life. You choose to invoke Fool's Luck and explain that you did not actually miss the buccaneer. Instead, you were taking advantage of the close quarters to initiate a feint, which you then followed up with a quick attack at close range when the buccaneer moved in to strike you. If the DM agrees to this explanation, you may roll normal damage against the buccaneer, as if he had been hit in the first place. The DM should give wide latitude for explanations to invoke this feat, but he is under no obligation to accept any given explanation, especially if he feels it is outlandish or implausible.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each subsequent acquisition of the feat increases the number of times it may be used each day by one.

[Gruftzwerg]

I suspect that Intimidate is called out as allowed specifically because the feat "Intimidating Rage" is required for the class, which allows you to use Intimidate as a free action against one target, thus not rendering you unable to attack in that same round. You still must attack those you perceive as enemies, but you can also intimidate them too, as it does not negatively impact your ability to attack.

Just my 2 cp.

It might be the intention yeah. But that's not what the text says. If the text would start with the attack condition and than call out what you may or may not do while attacking, I would have no problems. But RAW that is not the chase. Typical 3.5 issue.

[rel]

Using IHS to end the frenzy seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Seto]

Being a god helps. I believe anything above DiR 0 doesn't auto fail anything.

Ha! That is such a GitP answer, I love it
"- How can I avoid failing a save?
- Well, hear me out, step 1 is becoming a God. Step 2..."