[Variant] Definition Classes

[Fax Celestis]

Definition Classes are a way of defining a character within their roles. Base classes each present an archetype, though the archetypes are generally so broad that two characters can be unrecognizable as members of the same class. Definition classes, therefore, are designed to narrow the archetype for a given character while remaining within the bounds of normal system mechanics.

Some basic rules can be applied to Definition Classes, as follows:
*Definition Classes each have a prerequisite, delineated by intended archetype. The groups are as follows:
:*Arcanist: Any class that casts arcane spells is within the Arcanist archetype.
:*Divine: Any class with the Turn Undead or Lay on Hands abilities, or the ability to cast divine spells are within the Divine archetype.
:*Leader: Any class with Diplomacy as a class skill or a class feature that targets "all allies" is within the Leader archetype.
:*Skilled: Any class with 6+Int or greater skills per level is within the Skilled archetype.
:*Stealthy: Any class that receives extra dice of damage to attacks under specific conditions is within the Stealthy archetype.
:*Warrior: Any class that receives +1 Base Attack Bonus per level is within the Warrior archetype.
:*Wild: Any class with the Wild Empathy class feature is within the Wild archetype.
*Definition Classes count as levels in the class used to enter them for the purposes of level-dependent effects and abilities (such as a Paladin's Lay on Hands class feature), and for the purposes of multiclassing. They do not, however, actually advance that class in any way. A second level Rogue, for instance, who proceeds to take three levels of Second-Story Man will be considered a fifth-level Rogue for all purposes except determining his class features (including skills, hit dice, and other similar level-dependent features).
*Definition Classes must be entered at or after a specific level, as determined in their requirements. Second-Story Man, for instance, has a prerequisite of "Archetype: Second Level Skilled", and can only be entered by someone with at least two levels in the Skilled archetype.

Second-Story Man
Prerequisites
Skills: Climb 4 ranks, Open Lock 4 ranks, Search 4 ranks

Archetype: Second-level Skilled
{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1st | +0 | +0 | +2 | +0 | Adroit Agility
2nd | +1 | +0 | +3 | +0 | Break and Enter, Knock
3rd | +2 | +1 | +3 | +1 | +1d6 Sneak Attack, Climb 30'[/table]
Class Skills (8+Int): Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Architecture), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope

Adroit Agility (Ex): Starting at first level, a second-story man adds three times his second-story man level to Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks as an insight bonus.

Break and Enter (Ex): Starting at second level, a second-story man adds his Strength modifier to Open Lock, Disable Device, and Escape Artist checks.

Knock (Sp): Starting at second level, a second-story man may use knock as a spell-like ability once per day per point of Charisma modifier.

Sneak Attack: See the Rogue class feature.

Climb 30': At third level, a second-story man gains a 30' climb speed. A second-story man has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. He must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but he always can choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If he chooses an accelerated climb, he moves at double its climb speed and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. He cannot run while climbing. He retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing second-story man. Also, second-story men add their Dexterity modifier to Climb checks instead of their Strength modifier, if it is higher.
Pickpocket
Prerequisites
Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Sleight of Hand 4 ranks

Archetype: Skilled level 2
{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1st | +0 | +0 | +2 | +0 | Ill-Gotten Gains
2nd | +1 | +0 | +3 | +0 | Blend Into The Crowd
3rd | +2 | +1 | +3 | +1 | Sneak Attack +1d6, Cutpurse[/table]
Class Skills (6+Int): Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local), Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device

Ill-Gotten Gains (Ex): At first level, a pickpocket receives three times his pickpocket class level to Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Gather Information, and Disguise checks as an insight bonus.

Blend Into The Crowd (Ex): At second level, a pickpocket adds his Charisma modifier to Hide, Move Silently, and Knowledge (Local) checks.

Sneak Attack: As the Rogue class feature.

Cutpurse: At third level, a pickpocket can attempt to steal a small item from a foe he attacks. Whenever a pickpocket attacks a flat-footed or flanked foe and has a free hand, he may make a Sleight of Hand check. If this check beats his foe's Armor Class, he may steal one Tiny or smaller item from the target. If the item in question is in his target's hand, he must make a disarm attempt (as normal) in order to wrest the item from his foe's grasp.
Streetfighter
Prerequisites
Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Sneak Attack +1d6

Archetype: Skilled level 2
{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1st | +1 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Sneak Attack +1d6, Weapon Finesse
2nd | +2 | +3 | +3 | +0 | Dexterous Strike
3rd | +3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | Sneak Attack +2d6, Hamstring[/table]

Class Skills (6+Int): Balance, Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Local), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight Of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble

Sneak Attack: As the Rogue class feature.

Weapon Finesse: A first level streetfighter gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Dexterous Strike (Ex): A second level streetfighter adds his Dexterity modifier to damage rolls when fighting with weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse and when making a Sneak Attack. If a streetfighter makes a Sneak Attack with a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, he adds twice his Dexterity modifier to the damage roll.

Hamstring (Ex): A third level streetfighter can hobble a foe with a precise strike. By sacrificing a die of Sneak Attack damage, a streetfighter can reduce the land speed of his foe to one-half their speed for one round plus one additional round per point of Dexterity modifier. Multiple applications of this ability do not stack penalties, only renew the duration.

[Lord Iames Osari]

No love for monks.

[Fax Celestis]

No love for monks.

Huh? How so?

[Lord Iames Osari]

Huh? How so?

Oh, wait. Monks have Diplomacy. >.< Nevermind.

[RTGoodman]

Is there a limit on the number of these that one character could take? Because some classes could fit into more than one.

(Going off of memory, since I've misplaced my copy of Complete Adventurer). Scout, for instance, gives both 6+Int skills (Skilled) and Skirmish (Stealthy), and maybe qualifies for Leader (don't know if they get Diplomacy as a class skill). Swashbuckler, on the other hand, definitely qualifies for both Warrior and Leader.

[Fax Celestis]

Is there a limit on the number of these that one character could take? Because some classes could fit into more than one.

(Going off of memory, since I've misplaced my copy of Complete Adventurer). Scout, for instance, gives both 6+Int skills (Skilled) and Skirmish (Stealthy), and maybe qualifies for Leader (don't know if they get Diplomacy as a class skill). Swashbuckler, on the other hand, definitely qualifies for both Warrior and Leader.

Nope, but mind that you're forgoing other class features.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Shouldn't stealthy have a prerequisite of Hide and/or Move Silently as class skills?

[Fax Celestis]

Shouldn't stealthy have a prerequisite of Hide and/or Move Silently as class skills?

The Stealthy archetype is probably misnomered. I'm trying to find a better word for that one.

[dr.cello]

Three times class level bonuses to skills? That's a +9 bonus at third level. Since the prerequisite is 2 levels, let's assume 16 dex, at fifth character level for the Second-Story Man, you're getting +20 on Tumble checks.

EDIT: Also, how would this work with feats like Daring Outlaw?

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

I'm going to have to agree; the bonuses for Ill-gotten gains are a bit high. Granted, Bluff is no Diplomacy when it comes to power-gaming, but nonetheless. Ditto on Adroit agility.

I'd say twice class level would be better.

[Fax Celestis]

Also, how would this work with feats like Daring Outlaw?

It...wouldn't.

[dr.cello]

+6 would be more reasonable, though still pretty beefy. Again assuming a 16 in the relevant score, at fifth level you're looking at +15 without even trying. Skill focus, synergy, and one of those +2, +2 feats, and you're up to +22--that seems a little bit high to me.

Most of these abilities seem too powerful. Take Second-Story man, for instance. For a three-level dip, you get a hefty bonus to a good number of stats, a thirty foot climb speed, a +8 bonus to all climb checks, and you still have a decent sneak attack. All of this by level 5. That's better than most prestige classes. (Look at Thief-acrobat, for instance.) Strength to those three skills doesn't make a lot of sense to me and I can't see it being a huge draw.

Or Streetfighter. Weapon Finesse for free, full sneak attack progression, adding dex to damage (double dex during sneak attacks), and the hamstring ability. Couple this with Daring Outlaw and three levels of Swashbuckler, and you are getting Dex, Strength, and Intelligence to damage (and my swashbucklers usually have all three of these in the positives), full sneak attack, and your enemies have become basically immobile.

Pickpocket isn't so bad--Charisma to Hide/Move Silently isn't overpowering, and Cutpurse isn't going to break the game too bad. The skill modifier is a bit much, though.

[dr.cello]

It...wouldn't.

Um, care to explain that?

[JackMage666]

I dunno, they look pretty good.

Though, I'd like to see more... Its rather hard to judge just based on the few Definition classes you have, especially when they're all Rogue-like.

The bonuses in some cases are a bit much (Adroit Agility, for example)... 3x Class Level equals +9 at as little as 5th level, which is a bit much. I'd reduce it to 2x Class level, so it's less, but still mighty nice. Or, maybe, change it to an Enhancement or bonus or Competence bonus, so they don't stack with magic items/tools (respectively).

EDIT - Fixed Text, and added...

Daring Outlaw wouldn't stack, because it stacks Rogue and Swashbuckler levels. This is a different class (like a Paragon class, or PrC). The same way Assassin wouldn't stack with Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw, these wouldn't stack, since they're not Rogue levels, just rogue-like in flavor and abilities.

[dr.cello]

Definition Classes count as levels in the class used to enter them for the purposes of level-dependent effects and abilities (such as a Paladin's Lay on Hands class feature), and for the purposes of multiclassing.

Actually I don't think it'll turn out to be a problem, though, now I think of it. But I'd be curious how the OP would handle it. ('It wouldn't' really doesn't seem like a complete answer to me.)

[Skjaldbakka]

I'd like to see a necromancer definition class.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually I don't think it'll turn out to be a problem, though, now I think of it. But I'd be curious how the OP would handle it. ('It wouldn't' really doesn't seem like a complete answer to me.)

That passage you quoted is the exact reason. While one could make a case for the effects of Daring Outlaw to be a level-dependent effect or ability, the class features that are gained by the use of that feat are not level-dependent and are therefore unaffected.

[dr.cello]

That passage you quoted is the exact reason. While one could make a case for the effects of Daring Outlaw to be a level-dependent effect or ability, the class features that are gained by the use of that feat are not level-dependent and are therefore unaffected.

But what about the other levels? So it doesn't apply to the sneak attack if it counts as a rogue; what about to the grace and dodge bonuses? I don't see any good reason it shouldn't apply to them if you're counting it as rogue levels for the purposes of multiclassing.

[Fax Celestis]

But what about the other levels? So it doesn't apply to the sneak attack if it counts as a rogue; what about to the grace and dodge bonuses? I don't see any good reason it shouldn't apply to them if you're counting it as rogue levels for the purposes of multiclassing.

What "level-dependent effect" is intended to mean here is having your class level actually dictate the bonus. Class Level/3, or Class Level*Cha mod, for instance. And "for the purposes of multiclassing" is supposed to entail XP penalties only.

[dr.cello]

I'm not sure if you understand the question.

Say I'm a rogue who takes three levels of Streetfighter and five levels of Swashbuckler, and take Daring Outlaw. As rogue and swashbuckler levels stack in order to determine Grace and Dodge bonuses--am I effectively a level seven swashbuckler or level ten in order to determine that? It wasn't originally intended, obviously, but it makes sense if it counts for the purpose of multiclassing (since it's a feat focused on multiclassing).

[brian c]

I'm not sure if you understand the question.

Say I'm a rogue who takes three levels of Streetfighter and five levels of Swashbuckler, and take Daring Outlaw. As rogue and swashbuckler levels stack in order to determine Grace and Dodge bonuses--am I effectively a level seven swashbuckler or level ten in order to determine that? It wasn't originally intended, obviously, but it makes sense if it counts for the purpose of multiclassing (since it's a feat focused on multiclassing).

Since the "virtual levels" of swashbucker are from the feat, not from the Rogue class, the definition class would only count for actual rogue abilities. You would be a level 7 swashbucker effectively, and a level 5 rogue (although I don't remember offhand what Daring Outlaw does; whatever Rogue abilities it stacks you'd count as a 10th level Rogue for)